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Charcandrick WEST - Should we be talking about this kid ? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Casting Couch
- Start date
Sir Psycho
Footballguy
I'm starting Ware in a non ppr league and West in a ppr league.
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
How about west gets the majority of the touches in a close game or if playing from behind...and ware gets the majority if not all the touches when they have a good lead 
thatguythere
Footballguy
Milkman
Footballguy
Again if West looked like Ware and put those numbers up I'd say start West. There will be some kind of split at first and then if what's already happened in the past is any indication of future production Ware is going to carve out the more valuable FF role moving forward.no kidding.
NeverEnough
Footballguy
Well, this is a mess. I own both in a non-PPR & have NFC who to start, but need to start 1 of them after losing half my RBs to injuries.
Shutout
Footballguy
Comparing Charles or any other ELITE RB is not the same (or fair) type of comparison to make here. Of course you don't pull an all-time great for another guy in that scenario. Peyton Manning has well been known to not be the greatest cold weather guy but no one is pulling him in a blizzard. There is a line of common sense you have to draw.
In this case, however, neither West nor Ware are established ELITE Rbs. They haven't reached that status that is akin to NBYS in FF and so the Chiefs can be considering it, much like some teams make subtle shifts with kickers and punters depending on weather and leg strength or go with speedier LBers in some game and bigger run-stuffing defenses in others. If a team will consider it on ST, it stands to reason they might consider it at RB.
No, I do not have a statistic because, by and large, that would require the world to agree on what a "bigger" back is. Was MJD a big back because he was built like a bowling ball, despite his height? Is a RB "big" if he is 220+ and 6'1" or is 218 and 5'9" "bigger"?
But what I do notice is there are some backs out there that run with a lot of power and physicality and when the weather is cold, I know from experience, when you get that 20+ times a day coming at you, you have to be pretty darned committed to want to do that all day in cold weather, bad weather, etc when you are having a lot of collisions and ending up striking the hard ground a lot. In my opinion, it is a VERY real thing. Players like Ivory and Eddie Lacy, Corey Dillon and Blount, Various Giants and Cowboys Rbs over the years —I don't think it is any coincidence at all that you started seeing some of these players' best performances at the tail end of the season when the weather turned and they were used more.
Shutout
Footballguy
Would make sense and the more I look at that, the more I think they should just copy and paste from the Packers. Same kind of deal in some ways.
Shutout
Footballguy
Poncho
Footballguy
omally
Footballguy
bostonfred
Footballguy
The closest comparison this year might be McCoy and Karlos Williams. The "better" rb, Williams, didn't take over, even when Mccoy was hurt.
I know people want to believe that ware getting more ypc is proof that he's the better player, but coaches don't think like that. They have a bunch of stuff they want the running back to do and they want to put a guy back there who will do it. Not just running well or blocking and catching, but being good at certain types of plays, being able to handle audibles and know their assignments for blitz pickups and all that. And for whatever reason, west rapidly ascended the depth chart even while Charles was still playing. He must have been doing a lot of things right because they weren't just moving him past knile on a paper depth chart, they were starting to get him game reps and carries. And when he came in, he validated that by playing well.
I get that ware also played well, but there's nothing in reid's history to suggest he wants rbbc, and nothing about ware that was truly a level above what west did. And no, having a better ypc, even in the same game, isn't enough for a coach to throw out everything they've seen. No more than watching Brandon Bolden have a big game this week is going to make the pats forget Dion Lewis next year. They both played well. Playing slightly better in a couple games doesn't vault you up the depth chart in most cases.
I get that ware looks good and he does have some potential as a backup this year or a dynasty flier next but for this week I fully expect west to play and ware owners to talk about how stupid reid is for not recognizing the better player.
Disclaimer: I have owned both players this year and no longer own either.
I know people want to believe that ware getting more ypc is proof that he's the better player, but coaches don't think like that. They have a bunch of stuff they want the running back to do and they want to put a guy back there who will do it. Not just running well or blocking and catching, but being good at certain types of plays, being able to handle audibles and know their assignments for blitz pickups and all that. And for whatever reason, west rapidly ascended the depth chart even while Charles was still playing. He must have been doing a lot of things right because they weren't just moving him past knile on a paper depth chart, they were starting to get him game reps and carries. And when he came in, he validated that by playing well.
I get that ware also played well, but there's nothing in reid's history to suggest he wants rbbc, and nothing about ware that was truly a level above what west did. And no, having a better ypc, even in the same game, isn't enough for a coach to throw out everything they've seen. No more than watching Brandon Bolden have a big game this week is going to make the pats forget Dion Lewis next year. They both played well. Playing slightly better in a couple games doesn't vault you up the depth chart in most cases.
I get that ware looks good and he does have some potential as a backup this year or a dynasty flier next but for this week I fully expect west to play and ware owners to talk about how stupid reid is for not recognizing the better player.
Disclaimer: I have owned both players this year and no longer own either.
I think you're making it more complicated than it needs to be. West owners think West shouldn't lose his job due to injury. Ware owners think Ware ran way too well to not continue getting heavy usage. Those who own both, don't care which one gets the bulk, but are dreading a full blown committee.
thunderguns
Footballguy
bostonfred
Footballguy
I think people who have seen this play out a lot know that veteran head coaches rarely move a good player out of their starting lineup just because another guy is doing slightly better. People who haven't seen it play out as many times seem more apt to believe this is a meritocracy and the guy who played better for a week or two should take over. It's not a matter of what they should do, I just feel like it's really obvious what reid WILL do, and I think seeing it happen again and again over the years makes me more confident in that. Just my honest opinion as someone who no longer has a dog in this fight.
BearsFan4Life
Footballguy
I am in a must win game to make playoffs and am benching West for Miller.
I own both, so I'll get that out there first.
The Ware supporters are completely overlooking the fact that West had 129, 122, and 161 yfs in the 3 games before he left the SD game. The 161 was against a very good Denver D. I get that Ware has performed well, but he did do so against a battered Chargers team, and a depleted Bills D Line, and with that, didn't really do anything that West wasn't already doing.
My guess, if West is 100%, he's the bellcow again with Ware playing the CoP role.
The Ware supporters are completely overlooking the fact that West had 129, 122, and 161 yfs in the 3 games before he left the SD game. The 161 was against a very good Denver D. I get that Ware has performed well, but he did do so against a battered Chargers team, and a depleted Bills D Line, and with that, didn't really do anything that West wasn't already doing.
My guess, if West is 100%, he's the bellcow again with Ware playing the CoP role.
thatguythere
Footballguy
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Andy Reid chose West originally based on training camp, practices, scheme fit, etc, - While I'm sure he was impressed by Ware (who ran very hard) do you really think he's going to doubt his original assessment based on a game and a half of Ware - especially when West performed very well during his stint as the starter?Again if West looked like Ware and put those numbers up I'd say start West. There will be some kind of split at first and then if what's already happened in the past is any indication of future production Ware is going to carve out the more valuable FF role moving forward.
I own both and will (semi) confidently start West, because all logic dictates that he'll get his job back. Ware played very well, but you are making him out to be more that he was/is. He's a RB/FB tweener that did what he needed to do when called upon.
If it were Charles, you'd have a point. Is West really a veteran player because he's played four more games than Ware?
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
thanks coach. Because ypc in a very limited sample set is the only determinant for assigning RB duties. Good call.Patrick the Pirate
Footballguy
West did well in those 3 games.
The 129 was at home against the Steelers in Landry Jones' first game where he turned the ball over 3 times.
The 122 was against a 1-6 Lions team in London who played possibly the worst game of football I have ever seen. The Lions came to life after their big win at Lambeau, they were dead men walking up to that point.
The 161 was against an elite D in the Broncos. But that was the Peyton turnover fest. The Broncos D was literally on the field the entire game. West broke an excellent 80 yard TD in the second half.
West put up 11/16/0 rushing against that battered Chargers team. He did have 2/48/0 receiving that game as well.
Just doesn't seem fair that you are discounting Ware's opponents any more than West's.
West also went clunk in Minnesota with 9/33/0 and 1/6/0.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
That's what is really shocking to me, assuming the people on these boards are football fans, that anyone actually thinks an NFL head coach is going to look at ypc averages for two backs who have less than 50 carries on the season (and who faced different teams) and make any assessment based on that - all while throwing away what was achieved in the passing game.
I'll stand by what I said earlier - if both backs played a full NFL season, with feature back carries, my guess is their ypc would end up being very close at the end of the season. But even without that, NFL coaches aren't all that hung up on ypc numbers anyway - there's just too many variables and other assignments that go into the game.
I'm in the same spot, but I'm starting West... not with confidence that he'll be a stud, but with confidence that he'll still get the majority of snaps. I'm worried about goal line touches, though, and expect Ware to get at least 25% of the snaps. I think Charc was around 90% previously.
Like Dr.O said, Reid went with West for a reason and it worked really well. He'll be going right back. And like Poncho said, playing 1.5 games against the Chargers and a beat up Bills D-line isn't exactly a conclusive sample size for Ware.
This talk of Ware being a better back for the weather is... hilarious.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Not really, but I didn't use that word. He's a good player who had rapidly ascended the depth chart, was ahead of ware before Charles got hurt, and performed well when he played. Ware is a guy who had played well enough to move past knile on the depth chart to third, and played well when called upon. He even ran a little better than west.
If they had been 1a and 1b, or if ware had shown any indication that he'd get carries before Charles or west got hurt, or if reid had a history of rbbc when his starter was playing well, then ware would probably have a chance to take this job or carve out a big role right now. Instead, his best chance is that west gets/remains hurt or underperforms.
My point was more that Ware hasn't done anything that West wasn't already doing. The situation just seems to be a favorable one for a RB. With that, West seems to be the better receiver, and was the first choice when Charles went down. If I had to put a chip on just one, it would be West.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I fully admitted that my Charles "comparison" was invalidated by the talent difference, but my general point remains - I don't think weather affects one type of back more that the other. And at 5'10, 205 (like you say) is that really all that "small" anyway - seems pretty compact.
Sure I've heard about teams not wanting to tackle bigger backs 20 times in extreme cold weather games, but I think to a large degree that's just bluster that announcers bring up to have something to talk about. I understand the logic (to some extent) but for one thing how often do we even see such extreme weather games for each team, once or twice a season?
Bottom line is Andy Reid is not making his decision based on this.
bostonfred
Footballguy
It doesn't matter if big backs do better in the cold. It matters if the coach thinks big backs do better in the cold. And more importantly if the coach is the kind of guy who would change his lineup based on the weather.
Otherwise, you're asking for an in game adjustment. If there were an existing rotation and one did better than the other, they might ride the hot hand. If the starter fumbled or otherwise under performed, they might go to the backup.
It's one of the many paths to carries that ware has, but it's something of a long shot like the rest.
Otherwise, you're asking for an in game adjustment. If there were an existing rotation and one did better than the other, they might ride the hot hand. If the starter fumbled or otherwise under performed, they might go to the backup.
It's one of the many paths to carries that ware has, but it's something of a long shot like the rest.
Yeah. Except for that pesky little 6.5 ypc compared to 3.8 ypc. But that's not a big difference.
Catbird
Footballguy
Reid runs an offense that uses his starting RB equally as a runner and pass catcher. Charles, McCoy, Westbrook. That's how this offense runs. Fantasy players wishing he would now prefer a big pounding back on first and second downs isn't likely to change Reid's basic offensive strategy.
Ware can also catch the ball out of the backfield, albeit not as well as West. Why would Reid waste time signing and carrying a running back he feels doesn't fit his system?
If you want to play that game, how about the 14.2 ypc for West vs the 1.5 ypc for Ware?
I've said it about 100 times, West is the better receiver of the two. I've never once claimed that Ware takes over now and West rides the pine. I said they will both see the field quite a bit, cutting into both of their fantasy value.
That's the difference between Ware owners and West owners. Ware owners are quite aware of the dimensions of West's game that are effective and know he will still get plenty of work. West owners are pretending the last two weeks didn't happen.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
3rd and 4th RBs are often carried on the roster as much for their special teams ability as their ability in the backfield, if not more.
simey
Footballguy
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
I'm a West only owner, and as I stated earlier no one here has any definitive idea how this will shake out. The only people who know with certainty are on the Chiefs roster or coaching staff and they aren't going to share that information because it gives them an edge in game planning. And even if they have made a choice it could easily change a quarter into this week's game. Anyone here who is certain they know the roles right now and asserts it as fact is a fool. They may end up guessing right, but right now that's all it is and nothing more - a guess.
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But in this case, Reid went with Ware over Kniles Davis, who has already been effective in the starter's role. Me thinks Reid sees something in Ware. And I don't mean making special teams tackles. Especially after seeing him break two 35+ yard runs and find the end zone multiple times.
This I agree with 100%. Reid might have the idea that he's alternating series. But if West breaks 10 and 20 yard runs early, while Ware is getting stuffed for no gain, he's going to play the hot hand. So we're trying to guess both strategy and game flow. If owners have the luxury of waiting this situation out, I think they'd be best served to do so.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
If Reid considered Davis more effective and a better RB he would have used him instead of West, wouldn't he? From what I saw of Davis, he played himself down into a ST role when given the opportunity.
RUSF18
Footballguy
Have both. Until I see Reid give a second RB a significant number of carries, I'm rolling with whoever is penciled in as the starter and benching the other. I have them in a league where there are enough starting spots that I could justifiably start the backup in a flex spot, but won't do so until I am sure that guy will get more than a handful of touches.
shady inc
Footballguy
chiefs beat writer
Herbie Teope@HerbieTeope
Chiefs OC Doug Pederson said the team has a running back by committee with a now-healthy Charcandruck West, Spencer Ware.
Herbie Teope@HerbieTeopeChiefs OC Doug Pederson said the team has a running back by committee with a now-healthy Charcandruck West, Spencer Ware.
Obviously a Ware owner.chiefs beat writer
Chiefs OC Doug Pederson said the team has a running back by committee with a now-healthy Charcandruck West, Spencer Ware.
thatguythere
Footballguy
You could tell by the large font couldn't you...?Obviously a Ware owner.chiefs beat writer
Chiefs OC Doug Pederson said the team has a running back by committee with a now-healthy Charcandruck West, Spencer Ware.
This is how I read it............
Chiefs OC Doug Pederson said the team has a running back by committee with a now-healthy Charcandruck West, Spencer Ware.
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LawFitz
Footballguy
Well if it walks like a druck and talks like a druck...chiefs beat writer
Chiefs OC Doug Pederson said the team has a running back by committee with a now-healthy Charcandruck West, Spencer Ware.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Dizzy
Footballguy
I think we're all grasping at straws at this point.
I was surprised when Andy Reid first (openly) professed his love for West (after Charles went down)… and then after West laid an egg in his first start, Reid again showered him with compliments.
Has he displayed any of the same love for Spencer Ware?
Straws. :(
