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** Dallas Cowboys** 2019, you sucked (1 Viewer)

Ghost Rider said:
While I agree, I fully expect Jerry to pony up and give Dak close to his asking price.  
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It's a shame what the league has become, where middle of the road players can hold teams hostage for absurd amounts of money. Then again, I guess it is probably a drop in the bucket for the owner. But at what cost to the team? Hamstrung by a ridiculous contract for a mediocre QB.

 
humpback said:
His contract goes for another 2 weeks for starters, but why would they need to meet with him multiple times for that anyway? It's a complete clown show. They've shown him plenty of respect by keeping him employed for so long, just let him out of the last two weeks of his contract early and move the heck on already.

Not negotiable with who lol? I still think they let him go as well, but you have no idea what's going on, none of us do.
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I think you're focusing on the wrong thing. Again, it's irrelevant when they officially drop the ax. Despite what you think of Garrett, the owner has respect for him & JJ will let him go the way he wants to let him go.

The bottom line is they aren't going to miss out on anybody who's on their short list.

 
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Football Jones said:
I think you're focusing on the wrong thing. Again, it's irrelevant when they officially drop the ax. Despite what you think of Garrett, the owner has respect for him & JJ will let him go the way he wants to let him go.

The bottom line is they aren't going to miss out on anybody who's on their short list.
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Making the same unsubstantiated statements doesn't make them true. You have no idea how this is actually going to shake out, but again, what's the upside in waiting? There is none, it only reinforces what a clown show it is. It is entirely possible that they miss out on someone who is on their short list, not only at HC but other levels as people commit elsewhere.

 
Ack88 said:
I don’t think anyone is suggesting you are happy with an 8-8 record. As Cowboys fans, none of us are satisfied with these results. I think there is a discrepancy with how posters value Dak Prescott. 
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It's right there in black and white- "If you are happy with a talent laden 8-8 team then so be it". It insinuates that 8-8 is the best they're going to be with Dak, which is absurd since they've been better than 8-8 every other season with him.

Ack88 said:
And that tells you what you need to know with regard to committing 35 million annually at the expense of other players, like Byron Jones and Amari Cooper. It’s not like Prescott is a rookie, second, or third year player. He’s a well known commodity at this point.

Im not paying 150 million plus for some approximation of Kirk Cousins.
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They had those players this year and finished 8-8 didn't they? Now you think they're somehow going to be better than that by combining them with a worse QB?

He's 26 years old and has had awful coaching, you don't think someone who actually knows what they are doing could make him any better?

DallasDMac said:
It's a shame what the league has become, where middle of the road players can hold teams hostage for absurd amounts of money. Then again, I guess it is probably a drop in the bucket for the owner. But at what cost to the team? Hamstrung by a ridiculous contract for a mediocre QB.
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Name the QB's who are better than Prescott. He's not elite, but he's better than middle of the road.

It's funny watching everyone go nuts over potentially overpaying a QB, which is one of the few positions where it's actually warranted (almost becoming necessary). Giving all that money to Zeke was a far worse move, that's probably the last position you should overpay for.

 
Seems like you guys underrate Dak a lot. He’s definitely above average at worst. You might find a cheaper option, but you won’t find a better one. 

 
humpback said:
Making the same unsubstantiated statements doesn't make them true. You have no idea how this is actually going to shake out, but again, what's the upside in waiting? There is none, it only reinforces what a clown show it is. It is entirely possible that they miss out on someone who is on their short list, not only at HC but other levels as people commit elsewhere.
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This isn't worth debating too much (not really interested), but there's things in life where you can use known data along with some common sense to make legit assumptions. The Cowboys letting Garrett go & hiring someone else is one of them.

Also, if you think the Cowboys would wait long enough to actually miss out on someone who was truly on their short list, I have a bridge for sale. JJ didn't build an empire because he's dumb. JJ has his faults, but you're assuming he would be stupid enough to lose someone on their short list by dragging his feet.

I don't know who's on the Cowboys' short list, but you can bet it's not anybody getting hired now unless they weren't interested in being the HC of the Cowboys or preferred the job they just took.

 
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humpback said:
It's right there in black and white- "If you are happy with a talent laden 8-8 team then so be it". It insinuates that 8-8 is the best they're going to be with Dak, which is absurd since they've been better than 8-8 every other season with him.

They had those players this year and finished 8-8 didn't they? Now you think they're somehow going to be better than that by combining them with a worse QB?

He's 26 years old and has had awful coaching, you don't think someone who actually knows what they are doing could make him any better?

Name the QB's who are better than Prescott. He's not elite, but he's better than middle of the road.

It's funny watching everyone go nuts over potentially overpaying a QB, which is one of the few positions where it's actually warranted (almost becoming necessary). Giving all that money to Zeke was a far worse move, that's probably the last position you should overpay for.
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On the first point- I didn’t make that post, so I’m not going to comment on things I did not say. 
 

Yes, they did have those players. What I take issue with is Dak’s play against good teams. On the whole, the numbers look good, but instead they are fools gold: Dak was simply not good against good teams. He was overmatched and inaccurate. The Philly and NE games illustrate that perfectly. He missed several throws and the team did not score a single td in either game. Yes, others are responsible too, but the QB is the lynchpin of the offense, thus deserving the lions share of the blame. I’m not committing to any QB that comes up that small in the big spot. I get that I can’t convince you of that, and that’s why we are here in the first place- to debate NFL topics.

Off the top of my head, QBs better than Dak-

Brady, Allen, Roethlisberger, Jackson, Mahomes, Brees, Rodgers, Jimmy G. , Wilson, Stafford. Wentz, Watson. Ryan

I’d rank Dak about 14th. To me he’s in the bucket with Cousins and Jared Goff- average players who’s surrounding talent makes them appear better than they really are. You can disagree and I’m sure you (and others might). The bottom line is you can quibble with 14th vs. 11th vs. 16th, but Dak is not an elite QB, falling on the high end of the average range.

 
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Football Jones said:
This isn't worth debating too much (not really interested), but there's things in life where you can use known data along with some common sense to make legit assumptions. The Cowboys letting Garrett go & hiring someone else is one of them.

Also, if you think the Cowboys would wait long enough to actually miss out on someone who was truly on their short list, I have a bridge for sale. JJ didn't build an empire because he's dumb. JJ has his faults, but you're assuming he would be stupid enough to lose someone on their short list by dragging his feet.

I don't know who's on the Cowboys' short list, but you can bet it's not anybody getting hired now unless they weren't interested in being the HC of the Cowboys or preferred the job they just took.
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Well, you didn't have to quote me in the first place if you weren't really interested, but "common sense" would have been to fire Garrett a long time ago.

Now they're meeting with him again tomorrow? Yeah, common sense says you meet with a coach 3 times (and counting) before you fire him.  :lmao:

 
Ack88 said:
On the first point- I didn’t make that post, so I’m not going to comment on things I did not say. 
 

Yes, they did have those players. What I take issue with is Dak’s play against good teams. On the whole, the numbers look good, but instead they are fools gold: Dak was simply not good against good teams. He was overmatched and inaccurate. The Philly and NE games illustrate that perfectly. He missed several throws and the team did not score a single td in either game. Yes, others are responsible too, but the QB is the lynchpin of the offense, thus deserving the lions share of the blame. I’m not committing to any QB that comes up that small in the big spot. I get that I can’t convince you of that, and that’s why we are here in the first place- to debate NFL topics.

Off the top of my head, QBs better than Dak-

Brady, Allen, Roethlisberger, Jackson, Mahomes, Brees, Rodgers, Jimmy G. , Wilson, Stafford. Wentz, Watson. Ryan

I’d rank Dak about 14th. To me he’s in the bucket with Cousins and Jared Goff- average players who’s surrounding talent makes them appear better than they really are. You can disagree and I’m sure you (and others might). The bottom line is you can quibble with 14th vs. 11th vs. 16th, but Dak is not an elite QB, falling on the high end of the average range.
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Okay, but you did comment on it earlier, which is why I replied.

Most players play better against weaker competition, that's pretty much how it works. He had good games against the Eagles (1st), Vikings, Bills and Rams this year, and he's played pretty well in the post season, so it's disingenuous to act like he never plays well against good teams or always comes up small in big spots.

IMO the only QBs who are clearly better than Dak right now are Jackson, Mahomes, Brees, Wilson, and Watson. You can make an argument for Rodgers and Wentz, and someone like Allen could end up being better than him but not right now. Garoppolo is tbd, he's older than Dak but has only one full season. The rest? I'd take Dak over them for the next ~5 years, some of them fairly easily. To me, he's firmly in the top 10 QB's (which probably says more about the state of QB play than it does Dak).

Again, most importantly, it's about alternatives- even if you think there are 12-15 guys better than he is, you can't get most (if any) of them. It's easy to say "he stinks, just get rid of him"- it's much more difficult to come up with a better REALISTIC alternative. No, Dak is not elite, but very few are- you need someone to play QB, and IMO there just aren't many available options that are as good or better.

 
We're now in circular argument territory. Humpback (and maybe a few others?) feels Dak is close to elite. The rest feel he is middle of the road at best. All that is really left is to see how much of the Dallas cap space Dak will manage to hold them hostage for, and will it set back the rest of the team with what he ties up like may be happening in MINN with Cousins' contract. It'll be interesting to see the final number they come up with. Admittedly the numbers these guys get nowadays are so staggering it is juts hard for me to fathom them.

 
I think Dak is good and is likely still improving.  He still is relatively young.  I think he is good, maybe very good, but not great.  I think a team can win it all with him but that doing so depends upon not overpaying for him.

I know, a pretty pedestrian take, but in most instances that is called for.  If Dak wants top dollar he cripples his franchise, and maybe his career in the process.  If he is a bargain financially he may recoup on the backend, but he may not.  Pretty standard quandary. We all have been through it with our own guy when he comes up. 

 
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DallasDMac said:
We're now in circular argument territory. Humpback (and maybe a few others?) feels Dak is close to elite. The rest feel he is middle of the road at best. All that is really left is to see how much of the Dallas cap space Dak will manage to hold them hostage for, and will it set back the rest of the team with what he ties up like may be happening in MINN with Cousins' contract. It'll be interesting to see the final number they come up with. Admittedly the numbers these guys get nowadays are so staggering it is juts hard for me to fathom them.
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You're certainly using logical fallacies, but it's more in the strawman realm- I don't feel Dak is close to elite, never even alluded to anything like that. You're way off base with your percentages as well, far more people think Dak is better than "middle of the road at best".

Your last sentence may disclose why you are so off base here IMO- you and I might think that none of these guys are worth what they are making, but it's all relative. In a world where Jared Goff is going to count $36 mil against the cap next year, Dak is going to get more than that. 5 QBs are scheduled to count over $30 mil against the cap next year and Wilson is the only one I'd take over Dak. 7 QBs will make $30 mil+ in 2021, and as soon as guys like Lamar, Mahomes, Watson, etc. sign their next deals there will probably be around a dozen QBs making that much. It's the nature of the beast.

 
humpback said:
Okay, but you did comment on it earlier, which is why I replied.

Most players play better against weaker competition, that's pretty much how it works. He had good games against the Eagles (1st), Vikings, Bills and Rams this year, and he's played pretty well in the post season, so it's disingenuous to act like he never plays well against good teams or always comes up small in big spots.

IMO the only QBs who are clearly better than Dak right now are Jackson, Mahomes, Brees, Wilson, and Watson. You can make an argument for Rodgers and Wentz, and someone like Allen could end up being better than him but not right now. Garoppolo is tbd, he's older than Dak but has only one full season. The rest? I'd take Dak over them for the next ~5 years, some of them fairly easily. To me, he's firmly in the top 10 QB's (which probably says more about the state of QB play than it does Dak).

Again, most importantly, it's about alternatives- even if you think there are 12-15 guys better than he is, you can't get most (if any) of them. It's easy to say "he stinks, just get rid of him"- it's much more difficult to come up with a better REALISTIC alternative. No, Dak is not elite, but very few are- you need someone to play QB, and IMO there just aren't many available options that are as good or better.
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He's won exactly one playoff game. That's not good enough. Yes, there is other blame to go around. His play against good teams this year has been poor. No way I commit that much money to him. 

The idea that Dak is better than Rodgers or Wentz is absurd. When we look back ten years from now and see the surrounding cast from week 16's embarrassing loss to the Eagles and see what Wentz did with converted college QBs and practice squad RBs vs. Dak's perpetual over throws- the gap will seem even larger. I hate the Eagles but I'd take Wentz over Prescott easily. 

As for guys I can get right now. Again, it's about context- if Dak gets paid 35 million or so, I'll take Teddy Bridewater for 15 million, and commit the other 20 million to Cooper and Jones. Do you think they can sing both Amari and Dak to long term extensions? I think (but don't know) that if they sign Dak than Amari is likely gone. If given the choice, I'll take Amari.

It was Amari, not Dak, that brought the offense to life two years ago. Dak was not good enough to elevate the pedestrian core they had. Admittedly, those struggles were as much a function of a front office that thought Tavon Austin and Allen Hurns could be significant contributors. 

Lastly, I don't think Dak stinks. I see him, as I stated earlier, about 14th among NFL QBs. I'd rather sign a Bridewater, Tannehill type for roughly half the cost (again, I don't know the exact figures), draft someone (Hurts- round 2?) and not commit in excess of $150 million dollars to a QB that I think has topped out. He is in the high end of the average range. He's the type of player that can do pretty well when all other facets of the offense are strong, but not good enough to take a talented team over the top. I think his four year body of work quite accurately tells that story

 
Ack88 said:
He's won exactly one playoff game. That's not good enough. Yes, there is other blame to go around. His play against good teams this year has been poor. No way I commit that much money to him. 

The idea that Dak is better than Rodgers or Wentz is absurd. When we look back ten years from now and see the surrounding cast from week 16's embarrassing loss to the Eagles and see what Wentz did with converted college QBs and practice squad RBs vs. Dak's perpetual over throws- the gap will seem even larger. I hate the Eagles but I'd take Wentz over Prescott easily. 

As for guys I can get right now. Again, it's about context- if Dak gets paid 35 million or so, I'll take Teddy Bridewater for 15 million, and commit the other 20 million to Cooper and Jones. Do you think they can sing both Amari and Dak to long term extensions? I think (but don't know) that if they sign Dak than Amari is likely gone. If given the choice, I'll take Amari.

It was Amari, not Dak, that brought the offense to life two years ago. Dak was not good enough to elevate the pedestrian core they had. Admittedly, those struggles were as much a function of a front office that thought Tavon Austin and Allen Hurns could be significant contributors. 

Lastly, I don't think Dak stinks. I see him, as I stated earlier, about 14th among NFL QBs. I'd rather sign a Bridewater, Tannehill type for roughly half the cost (again, I don't know the exact figures), draft someone (Hurts- round 2?) and not commit in excess of $150 million dollars to a QB that I think has topped out. He is in the high end of the average range. He's the type of player that can do pretty well when all other facets of the offense are strong, but not good enough to take a talented team over the top. I think his four year body of work quite accurately tells that story
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What evidence do you have to suggest this? He has improved each year. Thats why I like him. Because I know that he will put in the work, do and say the right things. Take blame and lift his teammates. I get that you dont wanna spend money on him but any deal he signs now will be a bargain in a year or two. 

The Cowboys run without question the most predictable offense and defense in the entire NFL. Thats what Dak and his teammates are working against. Opposing teams literally know what the Cowboys are doing on virtually every single play. "The Cowboys do what they do" and We do what we do" is said each week by opponents and Cowboys coaches, respectively. 

And it pains me to say this but your boy Cooper doesn't look like he's gonna be worth anything when the weather gets cold. Maybe he was hurt/banged up but he looks like he doesn't even want to be on the field outside after November. 

 
STEADYMOBBIN 22 said:
What evidence do you have to suggest this? He has improved each year. Thats why I like him. Because I know that he will put in the work, do and say the right things. Take blame and lift his teammates. I get that you dont wanna spend money on him but any deal he signs now will be a bargain in a year or two. 

The Cowboys run without question the most predictable offense and defense in the entire NFL. Thats what Dak and his teammates are working against. Opposing teams literally know what the Cowboys are doing on virtually every single play. "The Cowboys do what they do" and We do what we do" is said each week by opponents and Cowboys coaches, respectively. 

And it pains me to say this but your boy Cooper doesn't look like he's gonna be worth anything when the weather gets cold. Maybe he was hurt/banged up but he looks like he doesn't even want to be on the field outside after November. 
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I know we don’t agree on Dak

I just can’t take how many times he missed Gallup in ‘18  on easy td throws 

How many times the ball is behind guys on slants

Hell, he missed more WIDE OPEN guys in the last Eagles game than he should in a season 

I like the guy. Seems like a good person. Works hard, wants to be a leader.,

Hes just inaccurate as hell

 
Ack88 said:
He's won exactly one playoff game. That's not good enough. Yes, there is other blame to go around. His play against good teams this year has been poor. No way I commit that much money to him. 

The idea that Dak is better than Rodgers or Wentz is absurd. When we look back ten years from now and see the surrounding cast from week 16's embarrassing loss to the Eagles and see what Wentz did with converted college QBs and practice squad RBs vs. Dak's perpetual over throws- the gap will seem even larger. I hate the Eagles but I'd take Wentz over Prescott easily. 

As for guys I can get right now. Again, it's about context- if Dak gets paid 35 million or so, I'll take Teddy Bridewater for 15 million, and commit the other 20 million to Cooper and Jones. Do you think they can sing both Amari and Dak to long term extensions? I think (but don't know) that if they sign Dak than Amari is likely gone. If given the choice, I'll take Amari.

It was Amari, not Dak, that brought the offense to life two years ago. Dak was not good enough to elevate the pedestrian core they had. Admittedly, those struggles were as much a function of a front office that thought Tavon Austin and Allen Hurns could be significant contributors. 

Lastly, I don't think Dak stinks. I see him, as I stated earlier, about 14th among NFL QBs. I'd rather sign a Bridewater, Tannehill type for roughly half the cost (again, I don't know the exact figures), draft someone (Hurts- round 2?) and not commit in excess of $150 million dollars to a QB that I think has topped out. He is in the high end of the average range. He's the type of player that can do pretty well when all other facets of the offense are strong, but not good enough to take a talented team over the top. I think his four year body of work quite accurately tells that story
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He threw for 300+ yards and 3 TDs against GB as a rookie when they lost on a last second FG because their defense sucked. He beat Seattle in the playoffs last year, then lost (as underdogs) on the road to the NFC champion Rams- that game was all about the run defense, where the crappy Rams run defense shut down Zeke and the supposedly stout Cowboys run defense got trucked. You seem to forget how hard it is to win in the postseason- Aaron Rodgers is 9-7, Drew Brees is 8-7, and they're both going into the HOF.

Dak played Philly with a separated AC joint- kind of makes things a little tougher to throw the ball accurately, don't you think? You neglect to mention that he has a winning record against them in his career.

Do you watch much football outside of the Cowboys? Not trying to be snarky but you seem to be very heavy on name recognition. Rivers was dreadful this year, Ben is toast, Brady was not good, and Rodgers wasn't very good either this year. You can't go back and get those guys in their prime, it's the current and future version which is all that matters for this discussion, and they are all on the decline- most likely won't even be in the league a couple of years from now.

I'll never understand this idea that "he is who he is"- he's been in the league for 4 years, and those 4 years have been really good when you compare them to the start of other QBs careers. If the guy gets somewhat competent coaching he could certainly take the next step.

 
I believe it would be a mistake to set the market for him.  If he wants to set the market let him try, but I believe that would cripple the franchise for several years.

 
humpback said:
Well, you didn't have to quote me in the first place if you weren't really interested, but "common sense" would have been to fire Garrett a long time ago.

Now they're meeting with him again tomorrow? Yeah, common sense says you meet with a coach 3 times (and counting) before you fire him.  :lmao:
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It sounds like you're ate up with how many times they're meeting with him.

What I'm telling you is it doesn't matter.

 
STEADYMOBBIN 22 said:
What evidence do you have to suggest this? He has improved each year. Thats why I like him. Because I know that he will put in the work, do and say the right things. Take blame and lift his teammates. I get that you dont wanna spend money on him but any deal he signs now will be a bargain in a year or two. 

The Cowboys run without question the most predictable offense and defense in the entire NFL. Thats what Dak and his teammates are working against. Opposing teams literally know what the Cowboys are doing on virtually every single play. "The Cowboys do what they do" and We do what we do" is said each week by opponents and Cowboys coaches, respectively. 

And it pains me to say this but your boy Cooper doesn't look like he's gonna be worth anything when the weather gets cold. Maybe he was hurt/banged up but he looks like he doesn't even want to be on the field outside after November. 
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I don't think that is the case. He regressed from year 1 to year 2. Granted, the supporting cast was lackluster and the Hurns/Austin WR corps was weak. 

I have no issue with Dak as a person; he's accountable, honest, and good willed. If anything, he needs to be tougher; command that huddle and be a part of instilling accountability within the organization. He can't do it alone but by nature the QB has to be the alpha dog. If anything, he's too congenial. 

Agreed 100% on the coaching. The aggregate leadership on the Cowboys, from JJ to JG is completely lackluster, lacking in strategy, discipline, and accountability. 

Cooper has his flaws and certainly came up small late in the year. The difference is he is an elite talent, capable of taking over a game. IMO, and I'm stating it explicitly as an opinion, knowing that lots of others disagree, including those that truly know the game inside and out, Dak is slightly above average. He's not close to elite and IMO has hit his apex. The accuracy really, really concerns me and it is more than the late season stretch where he (admirably) played through injury. You have to consistently hit those 20 yard throws to be top tier and Dak just misses too many of them. 

 
humpback said:
He threw for 300+ yards and 3 TDs against GB as a rookie when they lost on a last second FG because their defense sucked. He beat Seattle in the playoffs last year, then lost (as underdogs) on the road to the NFC champion Rams- that game was all about the run defense, where the crappy Rams run defense shut down Zeke and the supposedly stout Cowboys run defense got trucked. You seem to forget how hard it is to win in the postseason- Aaron Rodgers is 9-7, Drew Brees is 8-7, and they're both going into the HOF.

Dak played Philly with a separated AC joint- kind of makes things a little tougher to throw the ball accurately, don't you think? You neglect to mention that he has a winning record against them in his career.

Do you watch much football outside of the Cowboys? Not trying to be snarky but you seem to be very heavy on name recognition. Rivers was dreadful this year, Ben is toast, Brady was not good, and Rodgers wasn't very good either this year. You can't go back and get those guys in their prime, it's the current and future version which is all that matters for this discussion, and they are all on the decline- most likely won't even be in the league a couple of years from now.

I'll never understand this idea that "he is who he is"- he's been in the league for 4 years, and those 4 years have been really good when you compare them to the start of other QBs careers. If the guy gets somewhat competent coaching he could certainly take the next step.
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He has had good games, but he has also underwhelmed. He was decent against the Rams 20/32, 266, 1 TD, but nothing exceptional. Same against Seattle last year 22/33, 226, 1 TD, 1 int.

Those lines look pretty pedestrian to me. He was great against GB as a rookie; you are right that loss is totally on the defense. 

The point is he has had decent, but not exceptional playoff games as a whole. With the O-Line talent, Amari, and Zeke, the aggregate numbers and results are fair- not the type of performance I'm going to build my franchise around. 

I watch lots of football outside of the Cowboys. You put Rodgers or Brady on Dallas, the floor for wins is 10 games. The supporting offensive cast on GB and NE is  weaker than what the Cowboys have. Brady and Rodgers get some benefit of the doubt because they have won titles. Dak aspires to have what they do- a Super Bowl ring. 

In the short term, I'd still take Ben over Dak. Again, if you swap personnel around their teams and put a healthy Roethlisberger on the Cowboys, they win 10 games. Rivers, I'll concede, has fallen off the cliff. The Chargers were terrible this year.

I just think we have a disagreement of Dak's trajectory. I think the picture is pretty clear right now and that he's slightly above average. You think he could develop into a high end QB. Time will tell.

 
Ack88 said:
I don't think that is the case. He regressed from year 1 to year 2. Granted, the supporting cast was lackluster and the Hurns/Austin WR corps was weak. 

I have no issue with Dak as a person; he's accountable, honest, and good willed. If anything, he needs to be tougher; command that huddle and be a part of instilling accountability within the organization. He can't do it alone but by nature the QB has to be the alpha dog. If anything, he's too congenial. 

Agreed 100% on the coaching. The aggregate leadership on the Cowboys, from JJ to JG is completely lackluster, lacking in strategy, discipline, and accountability. 

Cooper has his flaws and certainly came up small late in the year. The difference is he is an elite talent, capable of taking over a game. IMO, and I'm stating it explicitly as an opinion, knowing that lots of others disagree, including those that truly know the game inside and out, Dak is slightly above average. He's not close to elite and IMO has hit his apex. The accuracy really, really concerns me and it is more than the late season stretch where he (admirably) played through injury. You have to consistently hit those 20 yard throws to be top tier and Dak just misses too many of them. 
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Agreed, he definitely regressed some there, but the larger point remains- he's still very young and has had crappy coaching so far, so not sure why you are convinced he can't improve. The start of his career has been better than most guys who have turned out to be elite, it's strange that you are so sure he's hit his apex.

I think you're way too high on Cooper- he's good but no way is he elite (Julio, Hopkins, Thomas, etc.).

Ack88 said:
He has had good games, but he has also underwhelmed. He was decent against the Rams 20/32, 266, 1 TD, but nothing exceptional. Same against Seattle last year 22/33, 226, 1 TD, 1 int.

Those lines look pretty pedestrian to me. He was great against GB as a rookie; you are right that loss is totally on the defense. 

The point is he has had decent, but not exceptional playoff games as a whole. With the O-Line talent, Amari, and Zeke, the aggregate numbers and results are fair- not the type of performance I'm going to build my franchise around. 

I watch lots of football outside of the Cowboys. You put Rodgers or Brady on Dallas, the floor for wins is 10 games. The supporting offensive cast on GB and NE is  weaker than what the Cowboys have. Brady and Rodgers get some benefit of the doubt because they have won titles. Dak aspires to have what they do- a Super Bowl ring. 

In the short term, I'd still take Ben over Dak. Again, if you swap personnel around their teams and put a healthy Roethlisberger on the Cowboys, they win 10 games. Rivers, I'll concede, has fallen off the cliff. The Chargers were terrible this year.

I just think we have a disagreement of Dak's trajectory. I think the picture is pretty clear right now and that he's slightly above average. You think he could develop into a high end QB. Time will tell.
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He also had a rushing TD in each of those games last year, including one right after a 16 yard run on 3rd and 14 that put the game away against Seattle. And his playoff experience has come as a 23 yo rookie and 25 year old 3rd year player. Drew Brees started out 1-2 in his first 3 playoff games as well, so it seems premature to write off Dak at this point.

There's no way of knowing what anyone's record would be in another situation, but I don't think the evidence is in your favor at all. How do you watch Brady stink it up last week against the Dolphins with a bye on the line and possibly think he would have won 2-3 more games than Dak? His arm is shot, he dinks and dunks all over the field and still put up far worse numbers than Dak. Don't forget that he had the best defense in the NFL and the best coach in NFL history to work with, so that counts as "supporting cast" as well. Rodgers was 27 when he won his Super Bowl, which Dak won't be until next year. Since then he's gone 5-6 in the post season and he had a losing record both of the last two seasons before this one. Don't get me wrong, he's good, but he's not the Aaron Rodgers of 5-10 years ago either. He certainly wasn't great this year, and it isn't likely that he regains his old form as he hits his upper-30's. That said, I wouldn't quibble about taking him or Wentz over Dak, but that still leaves Dak top 10ish.

Ben isn't healthy for starters, they aren't even sure he's going to play again, but I'd take Dak all day for the next 5 years. He started out great, but has gone 3-6 in the postseason in his last 9 games and has worse career post season numbers than Dak. Can't use the supporting offensive cast excuse with him, he had ridiculous weapons at his disposal.

Anyway, good talk.

 
I don't see how anyone can argue that Dak was as good or better than Rodgers this year.  Leaving out W/L record (which is more of a team stat anyway), Rodgers had a much better TD-INT ratio despite having a weaker supporting cast (at full strength), didn't have his best WR for a month, and was working in a new system for the first time in his career.  He didn't light up the scoreboard like we are used to, but Rodgers still had a very good season (just not great, by his usual standards).   And hey, if we want to bring in W/L record, Rodgers was not only 4 games better in the wins column, but was 6-2 in games against teams .500 or better, while Dak was 2-8.  Props to Dak for lighting up the Giants twice, the Redskins twice and the Lions and Dolphins to pad those stats, though. 

 
humpback said:
Agreed, he definitely regressed some there, but the larger point remains- he's still very young and has had crappy coaching so far, so not sure why you are convinced he can't improve. The start of his career has been better than most guys who have turned out to be elite, it's strange that you are so sure he's hit his apex.

I think you're way too high on Cooper- he's good but no way is he elite (Julio, Hopkins, Thomas, etc.).

He also had a rushing TD in each of those games last year, including one right after a 16 yard run on 3rd and 14 that put the game away against Seattle. And his playoff experience has come as a 23 yo rookie and 25 year old 3rd year player. Drew Brees started out 1-2 in his first 3 playoff games as well, so it seems premature to write off Dak at this point.

There's no way of knowing what anyone's record would be in another situation, but I don't think the evidence is in your favor at all. How do you watch Brady stink it up last week against the Dolphins with a bye on the line and possibly think he would have won 2-3 more games than Dak? His arm is shot, he dinks and dunks all over the field and still put up far worse numbers than Dak. Don't forget that he had the best defense in the NFL and the best coach in NFL history to work with, so that counts as "supporting cast" as well. Rodgers was 27 when he won his Super Bowl, which Dak won't be until next year. Since then he's gone 5-6 in the post season and he had a losing record both of the last two seasons before this one. Don't get me wrong, he's good, but he's not the Aaron Rodgers of 5-10 years ago either. He certainly wasn't great this year, and it isn't likely that he regains his old form as he hits his upper-30's. That said, I wouldn't quibble about taking him or Wentz over Dak, but that still leaves Dak top 10ish.

Ben isn't healthy for starters, they aren't even sure he's going to play again, but I'd take Dak all day for the next 5 years. He started out great, but has gone 3-6 in the postseason in his last 9 games and has worse career post season numbers than Dak. Can't use the supporting offensive cast excuse with him, he had ridiculous weapons at his disposal.

Anyway, good talk.
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It is always fun to hash these issues out. Good times. 👍

Time will tell as I don't see how JJ doesn't sign Dak to a long term deal.

I truly hope to be wrong about all of this. Nothing would make me happier than to see Dak lead a Super Bowl run. 

 
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Ack88 said:
It is always fun to hash these issues out. Good times. 👍

Time will tell as I don't see how JJ doesn't sign Dak to a long term deal.

I truly hope to be wrong about all of this. Nothing would make me happier than to see Dak lead a Super Bowl run. 
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I kinda expected that this year. All the pieces were in place.  :shrug:

 
Ghost Rider said:
I don't see how anyone can argue that Dak was as good or better than Rodgers this year.  Leaving out W/L record (which is more of a team stat anyway), Rodgers had a much better TD-INT ratio despite having a weaker supporting cast (at full strength), didn't have his best WR for a month, and was working in a new system for the first time in his career.  He didn't light up the scoreboard like we are used to, but Rodgers still had a very good season (just not great, by his usual standards).   And hey, if we want to bring in W/L record, Rodgers was not only 4 games better in the wins column, but was 6-2 in games against teams .500 or better, while Dak was 2-8.  Props to Dak for lighting up the Giants twice, the Redskins twice and the Lions and Dolphins to pad those stats, though. 
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The argument is more about who would you rather have for the next 5 years, but good job bringing up one of the very few stats that Rodgers was better than Dak this year. Props to Rodgers for lighting up the Raiders, Giants, and Lions to pad those not-as-good-as-Dak stats, though.

I agree that Rodgers had a good season, but so did Dak. Football Outsiders ranked him #1 in DYAR, which is QB performance vs. replacement level, or QB total value. He smoked Rodgers in that, DVOA, QBR, and was better in pretty much every statistical category other than the one you mentioned. Yet somehow people can't admit that he had a good season?

 
humpback said:
The argument is more about who would you rather have for the next 5 years, but good job bringing up one of the very few stats that Rodgers was better than Dak this year. Props to Rodgers for lighting up the Raiders, Giants, and Lions to pad those not-as-good-as-Dak stats, though.

I agree that Rodgers had a good season, but so did Dak. Football Outsiders ranked him #1 in DYAR, which is QB performance vs. replacement level, or QB total value. He smoked Rodgers in that, DVOA, QBR, and was better in pretty much every statistical category other than the one you mentioned. Yet somehow people can't admit that he had a good season?
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Admitting Prescott had a good season is not the same as saying he was as good or better than Rodgers.

I don't put a lot of stock in QBR anymore.  In the 49ers 37-8 win over the Packers, Jimmy threw for 253 yards, 2 TDs and 0 INT's, while averaging over 12 YPA...and had a QBR of 18.2. :lol:   So yeah, we can throw the QBR stat in the trash. Other made-up stats like QB total value and whatnot that have formulas that would take days to figure out are fun to debate, but I will take the eye test and the classic stats over made-up ones.  The way I see it, despite missing his best WR for a month and having no other WR who got at least 500 yards, Rodgers still had a very efficient season (26 TDs vs 4 INTs, the 3rd best TD-INT ration of his career) and led his team to a 13-3 record and a bye.  

Back to Dak, he comes up short in way too many games against good teams.  Every game there are throws that I think, "How did he miss that?"  I love his intangibles, as he is a great leader and is good at making plays when one breaks down, but he's just so inconsistent.  

 
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Ghost Rider said:
Admitting Prescott had a good season is not the same as saying he was as good or better than Rodgers.

I don't put a lot of stock in QBR anymore.  In the 49ers 37-8 win over the Packers, Jimmy threw for 253 yards, 2 TDs and 0 INT's, while averaging over 12 YPA...and had a QBR of 18.2. :lol:   So yeah, we can throw the QBR stat in the trash. Other made-up stats like QB total value and whatnot that have formulas that would take days to figure out are fun to debate, but I will take the eye test and the classic stats over made-up ones.  The way I see it, despite missing his best WR for a month and having no other WR who got at least 500 yards, Rodgers still had a very efficient season (26 TDs vs 4 INTs, the 3rd best TD-INT ration of his career) and led his team to a 13-3 record and a bye.  

Back to Dak, he comes up short in way too many games against good teams.  Every game there are throws that I think, "How did he miss that?"  I love his intangibles, as he is a great leader and is good at making plays when one breaks down, but he's just so inconsistent.  
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Again, it isn't really about "who had the better season", it's "who do you want at QB for the next 5+ years", but I'll humor you.

Okay then, what stats would you prefer- Completion %? Yards? Average per attempt? Average per completion? TDs? Passer rating? First downs? First down %? 20+ yard completions? 40+ yard completions? Rushing yards? Rushing average? Rushing TDs? Guess who was better in all of them?

Rodgers just had 16 overthrown incompletions last week against the 3-win Lions and their NFL-worst passing defense, which is the most any QB has had in a game since they began keeping the stat in 2006. Sure, Dak's accuracy/consistency isn't great, and that's why he isn't "elite". However, nearly everything people nitpick him about could apply to nearly every other QB. He's had challenges as well, like incompetent coaching and a separated AC joint in his throwing arm, but by my eye test and the vast majority of statistical categories, he was as good as Rodgers this year.

 
I love the "Dak misses too many throws" argument, when the guy is currently 4th in career completion % in the NFL with 65.8%. He's not dumping off to Elliott every pass to pad that stat.  Does he miss some throws? Sure.  Do all QB's miss some throws? Sure. But his accuracy isn't his biggest issue, not by a long shot

 
wlwiles said:
I love the "Dak misses too many throws" argument, when the guy is currently 4th in career completion % in the NFL with 65.8%. He's not dumping off to Elliott every pass to pad that stat.  Does he miss some throws? Sure.  Do all QB's miss some throws? Sure. But his accuracy isn't his biggest issue, not by a long shot
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I don’t think he’s inaccurate. I think he sometimes displays poor touch on softer passes that require finesse. 

He sometimes overthrows, or throws too hard to the flat or a couple of yards downfield.  One particularly poor throw was trying to hit AC on a WR screen and he threw a laser 5’ over his head. 

his deep ball and intermediate ball is usually pretty accurate, and he throws well on the run. 

but I agree that I wouldn’t call him inaccurate as a whole. He could definitely improve his accuracy on some of the touch passes though. 

 
wlwiles said:
I love the "Dak misses too many throws" argument, when the guy is currently 4th in career completion % in the NFL with 65.8%
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Look at stats all you want. I watch him play football. His inaccurate passes cost the offense yac and he misses open deep tds OFTEN

 
Dak is too inconsistent.  He looks elite one minute, and completely mediocre the next.  He's got an above average supporting cast too, so he can't blame that.  His predecessor ( in his prime) would be doing much more with this team.

 
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