Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
Are all of y'all's keyboards sticky with all this mental masturbation going on? 
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David Yudkin -McGahee/Henry SL (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Fullback Fro
- Start date
bostonfred2
Footballguy
Not to pick on this post, but it's indicative of the delusion that's going around in this thread. The idea that NFL teams are all better at every position.
You're saying that the average NFL team has 22 first round picks at their starting positions? Or are you saying that the only college players good enough to play are the ones taken in the first round? Looking at just the immediate impact players that came out of their team two years ago - Portis, Shockey, Moss, Andre Johnson, Wayne, Lang, Joseph, Vilma, Starks, Buchanon and Rumph - any one of them would have made the rosters of most NFL teams their first year. And excelled at their position.
Tell me which of the players on the Chargers 2003 roster you would rather have had than their counterpart on the Hurricanes. I'll give you Tomlinson over Portis, but not by much. Now you go.
As for 100 out of 100 times...
I don't hold any illusion that Miami would be favored, but 100 out of 100 times? In 1998, the 13-0 Broncos, en route to their Superbowl in as many years, played the 5-8 Giants and lost. They should have won that game. They beat every good team they played. Going into that game, you'd say they'd win 100 out of 100 times. You'd be wrong. As Berman would say, that's why they play the game.
I rarely watch college football, and if I did, I'd root for Miami to lose 100 out of 100 times. But you have to admit they had some very, very talented teams.
Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll
Footballguy
I didn't say he couldn't...I said he isn't.I have never seen it on here. Ever. He needs a hell of a lot more consistency, if he wants that label.
I would put him in as a Kicker, in any Smack Off.
Ask any former 'Cane whether their college team would have a chance against their current pro team. The answer will be: Ha ha ha.
OMG, did you just say 'Ludacrist'?too funny.
The pro teams wouldn't be better at every position. The best player on the field might even be from the college team. But the difference in depth would be huge. The 20th best guy on the pro team would be about a zillion times better than the 20th best guy on the college team.
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ShadowMaster
Footballguy
Yeah, had to spell check it, but the term seemed to fit. Show's how good Microsquish software can work.....
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ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
Exactly. Football is played with a whole team, not 3 players. Overall the NFL team would be FAR superior than any single college team as a whole.Of course a Miami all-star team could compete, but were talking about a single team in a given year, not a cumilation of 1999-2004 Canes teams.I guess anything can happen, but it would be the biggest upset in sports history.
bostonfred2
Footballguy
Absolutely. You've just managed to convince me that the pro team would usually win. Which I've stated all along. What you haven't managed to convince me of, though, is that the pro team would win every time. Depth means a lot more over the course of the season than in any individual game. If you're going to consider depth over the course of the season, though, do I get to consider Miami's game-to-game improvement as they adjust to the speed of the NFL? Or do they all play at a college level in every game? Most NFL teams would have an advantage on O line or D line, but I'd contend that Miami's D line was better than the Chargers' last year, and their O line wasn't that far behind. At LB, Vilma and Williams would be comparable to Edwards and the no names. At QB, I'd take Dorsey throwing at the Chargers' secondary over Brees throwing into Starks, Buchanon, Reed and Rumph. For kick returners, Moss and Buchanon both stepped in and made an immediate impact in the NFL. And at the offensive skill positions, it's brutally in favor of Miami at every position but RB, and even then, it's close. Let me stress this again - I'm not saying Miami would win every game. But I think they could win a handful of games, maybe 3 out of 10.
bostonfred2
Footballguy
I'll take 2002. Please tell me which players I've named that I'd have to take out of consideration.
Put another way:Hypothetically, if the 2001/2002 Miami Hurricanes could play against the worst teams in the NFL 100 times, how many games do you think the Hurricanes would win?
Fullback Fro
yesno
I think the point is this. You take any year Miami team after they've finished their bowl game and the next game on their schedule was the worst NFL team, they would simply get the asscots handed to them.
ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
You could have the whole 2002 Canes team.If they would of played any NFL team in 2002 I would be shocked if they would win 1 out of 100 games.
ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
That's exactly what I mean. Not how the team from 2002 would do NOW, but how they would have done at that point in time while they were still in college.
I think a good over/under would be 0.5 (assuming the teams don't age from week to week or suffer injuries or improve, etc.).
If you're talking about the worst NCAA Division IA college team, I think they'd win. But if you're talking about the worst college team at any level, the high school team would win for sure.This is probably easier to evaluate in basketball than in football (although the results ought to be the same). I've seen highschool baseketball teams that would destroy Whittier College.
What he said.Oh and you forgot LBs Mike Barrow and Darrin Smith and DLs Jerome Mcdougle and Damione Lewis. Maybe they could be on the practice squad.NO, if you put all the Miami players in the NFL on one team right now, they would win the superbowl.QB: Vinny, Dorsey, covingtonRB: Edge, Portis, McGahee, James JacksonFB: NajehWR: Moss, Andre Johnson, Wayne, Andre KingTE: Shockey, Franks, WinslowOline: McKinney, Carey, Romberg, Mercier, GOnzalez (weak at guard)Defense
Twilight
Footballguy
The ONLY way the NFL team would loose would be mental, approaching it like the Olympian NBAers this year.Yes there is an incredible amount of talent on Miami. But would the smaller Dorsey for example survive a hit by an NFLer? Or even throw passes that NFLer couldn't stop without the additional arm strength he has been working on.How long did it take Santana Moss to make an impact? Rumph was a force in college, is he still? How many times did Buchanon get burned last year?These guys are great talents, but even they looked like rookies at first in the NFL game. Now with the time, experience, and coaching the NFL teams have given them, they are giving you Miami fans these delusions of grandeur. They would be crushed by motivated NFL teams, even Arizona, EVERY TIME.
I'd bet the over.
Right. Seriously, if there's ever an NFL player on a talk radio show, call in and ask him whether his college team would have a chance against his pro team.* There's no way. The speed of the game is entirely different. It takes even the very best college players a while to adjust. The pro players in general are just way bigger, stronger, faster, and smarter (in a football sense) than college players.Watch the best rookie linebacker in his first pro training camp. He'll waste steps reacting to the ball and be a bit slower in diagnosing plays than his veteran counterparts. Watch the best rookie WRs struggle to get off the line of scrimmage. Watch the best rookie OTs struggle to handle speed rushers coming off the corner. And so on.
It's just an entirely different game.
_____
*As it happens, former NFL linebacker Billy Ray Smith was talking about this very topic this morning on a local San Diego sports station.
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I know people who aren't all that well informed on the matter who wonder whether the best woman's college basketball team could beat the worst men's college basketball team.This is kind of like that. It really wouldn't be close; the games are so different, they're nearly incomparable. But try explaining that to a UCONN fan . . .
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Jason Wood
Zoo York
Not to hijack, but Maurile is right on this. Artie Lang, who's about 260 pounds and horribly out of shape (Howard Stern Show sidekick FYI) has embarked on two such endeavors...last year he played a WNBA player one on one and lost by two points; keep in mind this is a 40 year old out of shape, alcoholic former cocaine addict and he lost by 2 (and had a 5 point lead). Then this year, Lang bet he could get a hit off any female pitcher so the girl who actually pitched in a AAA men's game (and won a slew of collegiate accolades) pitched to him and Lang crushed the first pitch to win the contest.
bostonfred2
Footballguy
Wait a minute. You guys are trying to have your cake and eat it, too. The Miami team wouldn't be deep enough to last a whole season, but the team would be all rookies fresh out of college for the entire season. Do they get better, or does depth not matter as much? Same with idea that the Miami team would make all kinds of rookie mistakes, but the San Diego team would always be "up" for the game. Wait, does the San Diego team get equipment and time to practice, while the Miami team has to play barefoot at 1AM the morning their beloved mascot dies?
I think you misunderstood the depth comments. Depth isn't a factor in this hypothetical matchup because of injuries. It has nothing to do with "lasting a whole season."Depth (in the sense of having lots of good players instead of just a few stars) is important because the weakest player on your team is the one who gets picked on.The fact that the 20th best player on the Chargers is way better than the 20th best player on the 'Canes is important because the 20th best player on the 'Canes is going to get picked on very badly. There will be plenty of matchups that the pro team will be able to exploit very heavily, and only a few matchups where the college team may have a very slight advantage.
Chris Smith
The Head Goon!
This post is for some of our older posters. I remember hearing that in the 70's a team of collegiate all-stars was put together each year to take on the Super Bowl Champions. I seem to remember that the 'Steel Curtain' Steelers were one of the teams. I don't know who won the games though.Does anybody remember if and when those games did take place and who ultimately won them?
I do remember hearing about these. I believe the college all-stars won at least one game.
http://www.hickoksports.com/history/collalls.shtml
Arch Ward, the sports editor of the Chicago Tribune, in 1934 came up with the idea of a pre-season game between the NFL champions and a team of college all-stars to benefit the newspaper's charity fund. All of the games were played at Soldier Field in Chicago.
The first meeting, on Aug. 31, 1934, ended in a scoreless tie. In the early years, the college players did pretty well against the pros. The NFL champions dominated in later years, however, losing only once after 1955.
In 1976, the game was suspended and finally called off because of a heavy rainstorm late in the third quarter, with the Pittsburgh Steelers holding a 24-0 lead.
That was the last game of the series. There were two main reasons for the demise. First, pro football salaries had reached a much higher level, many college players who were unwilling to take part in the game for fear of injury. Second, fan interest had declined substantially because of the NFL's dominance.
Arch Ward, the sports editor of the Chicago Tribune, in 1934 came up with the idea of a pre-season game between the NFL champions and a team of college all-stars to benefit the newspaper's charity fund. All of the games were played at Soldier Field in Chicago.
The first meeting, on Aug. 31, 1934, ended in a scoreless tie. In the early years, the college players did pretty well against the pros. The NFL champions dominated in later years, however, losing only once after 1955.
In 1976, the game was suspended and finally called off because of a heavy rainstorm late in the third quarter, with the Pittsburgh Steelers holding a 24-0 lead.
That was the last game of the series. There were two main reasons for the demise. First, pro football salaries had reached a much higher level, many college players who were unwilling to take part in the game for fear of injury. Second, fan interest had declined substantially because of the NFL's dominance.
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Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll
Footballguy
I'm just glad you were able to get back up!I almost fell out laughing so hard while reading this. Dude, let me pass you a towel so you can wipe that brown stuff off your nose.
Make no mistake, I have not defended Anarchy's comments on this topic. What I do know is that he is the ONLY guy on here that I have ever pmailed for insight on FF...seriously. He's good. And all I was reading in this thread, was that this one comment should take ALL credibility away from him. Please.There's plenty of staff that I don't agree with... I got pissed at Wimer last week...even called him out, to no avail. And to further prove to you, my anti-teacher's pet status, I'll challenge the member of your choice, to a fist fight, if you like! 
David Yudkin
Footballguy
But it works both ways. The 5 best players on the Canes would also target the 5 weakest players on the Chargers/Cardinals/whichever poor team you want to insert.I happen to think last year's Cardinals were worse, so I will use them and the 2003 version of the Hurricanes. That pretty much would get the Canes the bevy of first rounders that got drafted this year in addition to the guys that were solid in 2003.With Sean Taylor manning the secondary, he could help neutralize Boldin in the passing game. Who else of note did the Cardinals have as a reveiving threat? Similarly, who did they have that could run the ball effectively. And who did they have of note at QB. Offensively, other than Boldin, Arizona had marginal talent on offense. I think the speed of Miami could at least keep them in plays or put pressure on the QB on passing plays. Whether they could have stopped a mammoth line trying to run the ball is where things get dicey.A case could be made that a team comprised of marginal NFL pros is still way better than a college team with half top college players and half average college players, but I am not prepared to say that the pro team would 100% dominate at all times. Miami would essentially be fielding 3 first round DL, 2 first round LB, and Taylor on defense. That's an awful lot of first round picks playing on one defense, even if they were young and not used to the NFL game. Raw but talented would be the best way to describe them.On the other side of the ball, Miami had Dorsey, McGahee, Winslow, and Andre Johnson to go up against a defense that allowed 452 points last year. We can only guess how that would work out, but Arizona was not particularly good in any facet of their defense, so over the course of the game the Hurricanes team could probably have mustered up a few plays to put some points on the board.I still say that Miami COULD POSSIBLY have beaten the Cardinals (or a couple others). That's a far cry from WOULD FREQUENTLY. I don't think they would win often, but I think with time to scout, prep, and game plan they could make a game out of it some of the time.
The best players can't necessarily target the worst players; the players lined up against the worst players can target the worst players.In any event, you've summarized my point exactly: the worst players get picked on. This is why it's so important that the 20th best player on the Cardinals is so much better than the 20th best player on any college team.
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guderian
Footballguy
Take a look at the first pro game for each of those players and you will see how ludicrous your assertion really is because that would be the best approximation of a college team playing against a pro team. Even that comparision would be biased in favor of the college team because each of those player's first NFL games would benefit by a training camp and pre-season's worth of experience to prepare for the game. Throw a collegian into the NFL without that experience and they would be obliterated. Looking at the offensive skill positions first rounders you listed...Andre Johnson - 7/76 in his first gameMcGahee - Has not playedShockey - 3/44Moss - 0/0 (-6 yards rushing)Reggie Wayne 1/20James 26/112 (plus 14 yards receiving)This comparison is further biased in favor of the collegians because each of these players benefited when they put up these stats because they played with NFL players. For instance, Andre Johnson and Reggie Wayne were catching passes thrown by David Carr and Peyton Manning--not Kevin Dorsey. Furthermore, all of these players came to the NFL after they had several years of collegiate experience (i.e. they were all juniors or seniors).
David Yudkin
Footballguy
We could go around and around on this all day. Some of the players that you listed first game stats for were not necessarily starters in the NFL. To post numbers for a guy that might have been the WR4 for Indy or the WR3 on NYJ and injured is not a fair analysis.And while you could say Johnson had the benefit of Carr at QB, I could also say Johnson had the benefit of having the same QB he had played and practiced his entire career with.Even using your approach, Edge and Johnson accounted for 200 yards of offense between them, and that's not counting any production from any other players.On the flip side, if the Miami team got to play against Josh McCown before he had any starting experience, I would think that would be another advantage for Miami.Like I said, if the UM team could plan for and game plan as if it were a bowl game while the NFL team only had a regular week, I don't think it would be a total blow out.As I've said several times, COULD POSSIBLY WIN is not the same as WOULD WIN HANDILY OR FREQUENTLY.
Mark Wimer
Moderator
FWIW, Coach Coughlin said today that the Giants' couldn't beat a High School team the way they've been practicing, so presumably he would agree with David that they would be liable to losing to a college team right now, too.Coach Coughlin says Giants Couldn't beat a High School Team right now
I haven't lost my respect for Coughlin's football knowledge because he thinks the Giants circa 8/17/04 could get beat by a high school team, BTW.
bostonfred2
Footballguy
If the 20th best player on the Chargers is Drew Brees, and the 20th best player on Miami isn't in the secondary, it'd be closer than you think.
guderian
Footballguy
These statements undermine your argument. If a player is a WR3 or WR4 it's for a reason. If they weren't starters it is because they weren't ready even after they had the benefit of adjusting to the speed of the pro game for a training camp plus preseason games. Also Moss may have been injured, but his stats were un-impressive for more than one game/season. Also you argue that Josh McCown would not be as effective "without any starting experience" when all 22 Miami starters would be without similar experience. Again, at least McCown has a year's worth of practice experience against NFL players plus working with 20 or so other starters with starting NFL experience. So I don't see how an "inexperienced McCown" would be an advantage for Miami unless 22 inexperienced Canes would be a similar advantage for the NFL team they were playing.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
I find this thread somewhat humourous. There's been almost 1,500 page views and there has not been a single mention about either McGahee or Henry, the players that were in the player spotlight. Anyone with an opinion on them or anything else I had to say in the spotlight other than I smoke crack because I brought up the notion that UM may have had the slightest chance of beating a pro team?
aardball44
Footballguy
Drafted 'em both. Rootin' for a surprise trade by the Bills, Travis Henry to Anywhere Else. Then I'd have two RB studs when I thought I only had handcuffs.
bostonfred2
Footballguy
Fro was just trying to start a conversation. Some call it fishing, but I thought it was kind of interesting. Plus, I got to bust on San Diego every time MT argued the opposite side, which was worth the price of admission for me. If you want to discuss the spotlight, start your own thread.
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Frenchy Fuqua
Footballguy
This thread is a joke. No college team in recent history would stand a chance against an NFL team. This thread mentions FF-skill type players, but the NFL teams would own college teams where games are won and lost: in the trenches. As great as the Miami team of 2001-2002 was look at their starting O-line. Other than McKinney they had zero impact NFL'ers. All-American center Brett Romberg wasn't even drafted because of his size and lack of speed. All-American RT Joaquin Gonzalez is the 47th man on the Browns roster only because he is Butch Davis' boy. Some NFL QBs are bigger than this guy, he has WRs legs. Starting OG Sherko Haji-Rasouli is back in the desert, couldn't even get an NFL tryout. All-American OG Martin Bibla was the Falcons 4th round pick and has been a part-time player for them.
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RAIDERNATION.
Footballguy
BF,I respect your opinions as much as ANYONE who posts here regularly. Having said that, I disagree with your quoted statement above more than I've disageed with any statement I've ever read in this forum.
3 times out of 10??? You have got to be kidding.
Remember earlier in the thread when I said that the worst NFL team would beat the best college team 100 straight times? Not only do I firmly believe that, but I would also submit that the pro team would win every one of those games without even needing to throw the ball one time! I mean that sincerely. The NFL team which everyone has been using as the example of a "terrible team" is the 2003 Cardinals. The '03 Arizona team would have physically MAULED UM's defensive line into submission by the time the national anthem was over.
COLLEGE blue chippers or not.
Yeah, 3 out of 10 is an awful lot. I really don't think the Cardinals could beat the Patriots 3 out of 10 times. But the difference between the Cardinals and Patriots is tiny compared to the difference between the Cardinals and any college team.
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bostonfred2
Footballguy
Stay focused. We're talking about the Chargers.
Oh, in that case, I do think the Chargers could beat the Cardinals in 3 out of 10 games.
bostonfred2
Footballguy
That's about what the over/under would be.
Jerome McDougle, William Joseph, and Vince Wilfork on the D-line with Vilma and DJ Williams at LB. I don't think an NFL team could just run on these dudes all day long.If they played 100 hypothetical games, I believe the Hurricanes would win at least 1. If anyone agrees, that's all it would take to make David's original statement more than reasonable.
