Dentist and "Bad Beats" (1 Viewer)

[fred_1_15301]

I think the answer here is, scoreboard. You don't like his play. But in the end he won out. Maybe he thought your boy had nothing, maybe he was an idiot. But if you are going all in not knowing the players in the first 5 minutes of the tourney and you get clipped? Oh well better luck next time and try taking the temp of the table for a few before you go nuts.

I'm not sure you understand. If my buddy saw the guys hand he would say "absolutely, go ahead and call"... but that 4 is not supposed to hit when it's like a 5% chance.

That's stupid.

In Missouri hold'em the guy would immediately lose his chips for making that call, river card be damned, and he would also be given a stern lecture on poker theory

We're you playing Missouri hold'em? Not sure it's relevant if not. And they are his cards. Who are you to tell them how to play them? It's his money to lose who are you to keep him from doing so? I get it he beat your guy with a gamble that should have failed. He got lucky. If someone who didn't know what they were dealing with had been more cautious they would have gotten a chance to take all his chips at some point. But they weren't and so they didn't. Your guy is much more to blame for his early bounce than the guy who lucked out IMO.

So my guy should'nt have shoved with the 2nd nuts on the turn? His shove represented just slightly more than was in the pot.

There was ZERO flaw to how he played the hand... ZERO... the guy should never have called.. and if he DID call there was no way he should've hit the hand.

95% of the time my buddy doubles up and probably has a great run. What i'm suggesting is that that 5% shouldn't ever have to happen.

Yes but you can't just change the rules of the game (at least in Texas that is).

 

[fred_1_15301]

I think the answer here is, scoreboard. You don't like his play. But in the end he won out. Maybe he thought your boy had nothing, maybe he was an idiot. But if you are going all in not knowing the players in the first 5 minutes of the tourney and you get clipped? Oh well better luck next time and try taking the temp of the table for a few before you go nuts.

I'm not sure you understand. If my buddy saw the guys hand he would say "absolutely, go ahead and call"... but that 4 is not supposed to hit when it's like a 5% chance.

That's stupid.

In Missouri hold'em the guy would immediately lose his chips for making that call, river card be damned, and he would also be given a stern lecture on poker theory

We're you playing Missouri hold'em? Not sure it's relevant if not. And they are his cards. Who are you to tell them how to play them? It's his money to lose who are you to keep him from doing so? I get it he beat your guy with a gamble that should have failed. He got lucky. If someone who didn't know what they were dealing with had been more cautious they would have gotten a chance to take all his chips at some point. But they weren't and so they didn't. Your guy is much more to blame for his early bounce than the guy who lucked out IMO.

So my guy should'nt have shoved with the 2nd nuts on the turn? His shove represented just slightly more than was in the pot.

There was ZERO flaw to how he played the hand... ZERO... the guy should never have called.. and if he DID call there was no way he should've hit the hand.

95% of the time my buddy doubles up and probably has a great run. What i'm suggesting is that that 5% shouldn't ever have to happen.

If the 5 percent never happened there would be no reason to play the ####### game.

It's one of the reasons I mostly quit. I got to the point that regardless of how much money I could win.. the pain of losing that 5-30% of the time when the bad beats hit was too maddening.

I could accept being outplayed... i could accept having the worst hand.. i could accept being coin-flipped out of tournaments.... I could even accept bad beats when the player had every right to be in the hand... like AA vs. KK and he spikes his king... guy did nothing wrong... But I could'nt accept being beaten by the bad play bad beat combo.

Are you playing chess for money? If not and you're as good as you claim you are in poker, you're a genius for passing up free money. It seems like you need to work a little on controlling your emotions.

 

[NCCommish]

I think the answer here is, scoreboard. You don't like his play. But in the end he won out. Maybe he thought your boy had nothing, maybe he was an idiot. But if you are going all in not knowing the players in the first 5 minutes of the tourney and you get clipped? Oh well better luck next time and try taking the temp of the table for a few before you go nuts.

I'm not sure you understand. If my buddy saw the guys hand he would say "absolutely, go ahead and call"... but that 4 is not supposed to hit when it's like a 5% chance.

That's stupid.

In Missouri hold'em the guy would immediately lose his chips for making that call, river card be damned, and he would also be given a stern lecture on poker theory

We're you playing Missouri hold'em? Not sure it's relevant if not. And they are his cards. Who are you to tell them how to play them? It's his money to lose who are you to keep him from doing so? I get it he beat your guy with a gamble that should have failed. He got lucky. If someone who didn't know what they were dealing with had been more cautious they would have gotten a chance to take all his chips at some point. But they weren't and so they didn't. Your guy is much more to blame for his early bounce than the guy who lucked out IMO.

So my guy should'nt have shoved with the 2nd nuts on the turn? His shove represented just slightly more than was in the pot.

There was ZERO flaw to how he played the hand... ZERO... the guy should never have called.. and if he DID call there was no way he should've hit the hand.

95% of the time my buddy doubles up and probably has a great run. What i'm suggesting is that that 5% shouldn't ever have to happen.

If the 5 percent never happened there would be no reason to play the ####### game.

It's one of the reasons I mostly quit. I got to the point that regardless of how much money I could win.. the pain of losing that 5-30% of the time when the bad beats hit was too maddening.

I could accept being outplayed... i could accept having the worst hand.. i could accept being coin-flipped out of tournaments.... I could even accept bad beats when the player had every right to be in the hand... like AA vs. KK and he spikes his king... guy did nothing wrong... But I could'nt accept being beaten by the bad play bad beat combo.

Well then you made the right decision. You can't take the luck out.

 

[Dentist]

I think the answer here is, scoreboard. You don't like his play. But in the end he won out. Maybe he thought your boy had nothing, maybe he was an idiot. But if you are going all in not knowing the players in the first 5 minutes of the tourney and you get clipped? Oh well better luck next time and try taking the temp of the table for a few before you go nuts.

I'm not sure you understand. If my buddy saw the guys hand he would say "absolutely, go ahead and call"... but that 4 is not supposed to hit when it's like a 5% chance.

That's stupid.

In Missouri hold'em the guy would immediately lose his chips for making that call, river card be damned, and he would also be given a stern lecture on poker theory

We're you playing Missouri hold'em? Not sure it's relevant if not. And they are his cards. Who are you to tell them how to play them? It's his money to lose who are you to keep him from doing so? I get it he beat your guy with a gamble that should have failed. He got lucky. If someone who didn't know what they were dealing with had been more cautious they would have gotten a chance to take all his chips at some point. But they weren't and so they didn't. Your guy is much more to blame for his early bounce than the guy who lucked out IMO.

So my guy should'nt have shoved with the 2nd nuts on the turn? His shove represented just slightly more than was in the pot.

There was ZERO flaw to how he played the hand... ZERO... the guy should never have called.. and if he DID call there was no way he should've hit the hand.

95% of the time my buddy doubles up and probably has a great run. What i'm suggesting is that that 5% shouldn't ever have to happen.

If the 5 percent never happened there would be no reason to play the ####### game.

It's one of the reasons I mostly quit. I got to the point that regardless of how much money I could win.. the pain of losing that 5-30% of the time when the bad beats hit was too maddening.

I could accept being outplayed... i could accept having the worst hand.. i could accept being coin-flipped out of tournaments.... I could even accept bad beats when the player had every right to be in the hand... like AA vs. KK and he spikes his king... guy did nothing wrong... But I could'nt accept being beaten by the bad play bad beat combo.

Are you playing chess for money? If not and you're as good as you claim you are in poker, you're a genius for passing up free money. It seems like you need to work a little on controlling your emotions.

Unless they bring pokerstars back I don't have the time to get to the casino to play anyway...

I play live poker once a month and am fine with that frequency of play.. keeps me sharp enough.

I'm sure I could win more money playing poker... but I'm not playing the chess for money. but i can play the chess app on the toilet.

If they bring pokerstars back and have an app, then I'll play that in the toilet

 

[tjnc09]

There is absolutely no way you could be a profitable poker player with your inability to control your emotions.

 

[Tom Servo]

I may be wrong, but isn't luck part of gambling?

 

[tjnc09]

I may be wrong, but isn't luck part of gambling?

There's no luck in fantasy football. That's why Dentist belongs to this forum.

 

[Dentist]

There is absolutely no way you could be a profitable poker player with your inability to control your emotions.

Look, you can check my OPR ranking... I was a very profitable tournament player when pokerstars was available... i was able to control my emotions better when it was an online game and I could just enter another tournament soon thereafter.

I'm not nearly as good of a live tournament poker player, although I have 3 wins under my belt (2 in non-donkaments) because of the amount of time those tournaments take and my frustration with looking into the eyes of a real donkey whilst he turns up his horrible cards that just out-rivered me.

If they bring online poker back I'll consider playing... but I agree that every bad beat took a little more of my soul away and eventually I had to get away from playing because it was turning me into a worse player.

 

[Dentist]

I may be wrong, but isn't luck part of gambling?

There's no luck in fantasy football. That's why Dentist belongs to this forum.

Plenty of luck in fantasy football... football is the worst of the fantasy sports for luck because of the short season, playoff formats that are often one-offs, etc.

I accept it for what it is.. I do agree there is some skill to it.. but i've made peace with it.

In FFL, however, no one consciously does anything to screw me over..... if the ball bounces the wrong way, so be it.. i can't control that.

In the case of my buddy getting screwed over in that tournament the bass pole in question had the opportunity to correctly fold his 5 2 offsuit preflop, in the face of heavy flop action, and then again in the face of heavy turn action... he made a horrible, indefensible choice THREE times and then got lucky and directly screwed him over... now THAT just hacks me off.... and that doesn't happen in FFL

 

[Ned]

I may be wrong, but isn't luck part of gambling?

There's no luck in fantasy football. That's why Dentist belongs to this forum.

Plenty of luck in fantasy football... football is the worst of the fantasy sports for luck because of the short season, playoff formats that are often one-offs, etc.

I accept it for what it is.. I do agree there is some skill to it.. but i've made peace with it.

In FFL, however, no one consciously does anything to screw me over..... if the ball bounces the wrong way, so be it.. i can't control that.

In the case of my buddy getting screwed over in that tournament the bass pole in question had the opportunity to correctly fold his 5 2 offsuit preflop, in the face of heavy flop action, and then again in the face of heavy turn action... he made a horrible, indefensible choice THREE times and then got lucky and directly screwed him over... now THAT just hacks me off.... and that doesn't happen in FFL

 

[IvanKaramazov]

In the case of my buddy getting screwed over in that tournament the bass pole in question had the opportunity to correctly fold his 5 2 offsuit preflop, in the face of heavy flop action, and then again in the face of heavy turn action... he made a horrible, indefensible choice THREE times and then got lucky and directly screwed him over... now THAT just hacks me off.... and that doesn't happen in FFL

Why in the world would you want this guy to fold his 52o preflop? Why would you want him folding his four-outer after the flop? I want my opponents playing like this.

 

[fred_1_15301]

In the case of my buddy getting screwed over in that tournament the bass pole in question had the opportunity to correctly fold his 5 2 offsuit preflop, in the face of heavy flop action, and then again in the face of heavy turn action... he made a horrible, indefensible choice THREE times and then got lucky and directly screwed him over... now THAT just hacks me off.... and that doesn't happen in FFL

Why in the world would you want this guy to fold his 52o preflop? Why would you want him folding his four-outer after the flop? I want my opponents playing like this.

He doesn't want them to fold 2,5. He just wants them to give back the money when they suck out (i.e. Missouri Holdem)

 

[Dentist]

In the case of my buddy getting screwed over in that tournament the bass pole in question had the opportunity to correctly fold his 5 2 offsuit preflop, in the face of heavy flop action, and then again in the face of heavy turn action... he made a horrible, indefensible choice THREE times and then got lucky and directly screwed him over... now THAT just hacks me off.... and that doesn't happen in FFL

Why in the world would you want this guy to fold his 52o preflop? Why would you want him folding his four-outer after the flop? I want my opponents playing like this.

He doesn't want them to fold 2,5. He just wants them to give back the money when they suck out (i.e. Missouri Holdem)

This is spot on. I only want them to call the times they are going to lose.

Ultimately I like winning pots the most when people fold.. it's usually the only time you're 100% to win

 

[The Big Guy]

The only thing I would add to the play if your friend is that going all in on the 5th hand of a real tourney without the stone cold nuts should get you sent to the rail.

 

[Dentist]

The only thing I would add to the play if your friend is that going all in on the 5th hand of a real tourney without the stone cold nuts should get you sent to the rail.

So you're telling me that someone with a set of aces on a rainbow board who re-raised pre-flop should put someone on a hand that would make a wheel there? That's reasonable?

He had the GD 2nd nuts... of the range of hands to put the guy on... The case ace with a big kicker, another set, etc... the wheel was about the last thing you would ever put the guy on... even most BAD players don't play that.

And it turned out he didn't have that hand... he had something that says: "I don't even know how to play poker"

It was stupid... and your logic is stupid. my friend played the hand right.... He would've preferred the guy had a set of 5's and then hit a 1 outer on the river to give him quads rather than have the hand he did end up having because at least the play would've resembled something reasonable.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Dentist is right that his buddy played the hand correctly. You should be willing to go to the felt here, especially since your preflop raise would have folded out the only hand that could beat you. The only mistake in this analysis is that if the fish flipped over his cards, the buddy should have been begging for a call, not a fold.

 

[Ned]

Dentist is right that his buddy played the hand correctly. You should be willing to go to the felt here, especially since your preflop raise would have folded out the only hand that could beat you. The only mistake in this analysis is that if the fish flipped over his cards, the buddy should have been begging for a call, not a fold.

I love results based thinking, but only when the results are when I'm winning.

 

[irish eyes]

Sounds like Phil helmuth reasoning and crying in here. "He beat me, it's not fair.. I'm better, your stupid, go home. Geez

 

[Dentist]

Sounds like Phil helmuth reasoning and crying in here. "He beat me, it's not fair.. I'm better, your stupid, go home. Geez

Hellmuth hasn't got anything on my schtick. He whines more.. I, however, am far darker and far deeper down the wormhole of bad beat conspiracies

 

[Sarnoff]

What's "Missouri Holdem"?

I've always thought it'd be an interesting thought experiment to somehow track winnings by a proportional method of chopping the pot after an all-in and call. i.e., guy goes all-in, gets called, they turn over their hands, and if one guy is 95% and the other is 5% EV, just chop the pot there and give 95% of the chips to the one guy and 5% to the other.

 

[Dentist]

What's "Missouri Holdem"?

I've always thought it'd be an interesting thought experiment to somehow track winnings by a proportional method of chopping the pot after an all-in and call. i.e., guy goes all-in, gets called, they turn over their hands, and if one guy is 95% and the other is 5% EV, just chop the pot there and give 95% of the chips to the one guy and 5% to the other.

it's a game i've been working on a long time to eliminate bad beats.

Your second sentence is basically one of the things i've been working on... chop the pot by win % right there.... people can't get eliminated on coinflips.. I've got a lot of things in the works on this.. but it's been derailed by the online poker shutdown

 

[bweiser]

Any of you guys ever been on the other side of a bad beat? Playing a hand you shouldn't have and winning?

I was OTB one night and I had 34 off. Guy who had been raising all night makes it $10. It folds to me and I make it $35. Folds back to him and he flats.

Flop ... A25. He bets $60. I ship it all-in. He calls with AK. Turn K. River blank.

Ship the sherbert to herbert. I ran into him a few months later. He remembered the hand. I limped UTG with AA. He raised. I 3-bet. He shipped. I snapped. I felted him again. Pretty sure he said he'd never play another hand with me again.

 

[Prince Myshkin]

I think the answer here is, scoreboard. You don't like his play. But in the end he won out. Maybe he thought your boy had nothing, maybe he was an idiot. But if you are going all in not knowing the players in the first 5 minutes of the tourney and you get clipped? Oh well better luck next time and try taking the temp of the table for a few before you go nuts.

I'm not sure you understand. If my buddy saw the guys hand he would say "absolutely, go ahead and call"... but that 4 is not supposed to hit when it's like a 5% chance.

That's stupid.

In Missouri hold'em the guy would immediately lose his chips for making that call, river card be damned, and he would also be given a stern lecture on poker theory

You have said many times now that "it isn't supposed to happen". Well, yeah it is. If it's a 5% chance, that 4 is supposed to hit once in every 20 hands. If your buddy would make that push 100% of the time, he should expect to get beaten every now and then.

BTW, there were many hands that could have beaten him in that situation. The guy could have very easily had a small pocket pair based off the early action. If it was going to "ruin his poker life", maybe he should have played more conservatively.

 

[bweiser]

I think the answer here is, scoreboard. You don't like his play. But in the end he won out. Maybe he thought your boy had nothing, maybe he was an idiot. But if you are going all in not knowing the players in the first 5 minutes of the tourney and you get clipped? Oh well better luck next time and try taking the temp of the table for a few before you go nuts.

I'm not sure you understand. If my buddy saw the guys hand he would say "absolutely, go ahead and call"... but that 4 is not supposed to hit when it's like a 5% chance.

That's stupid.

In Missouri hold'em the guy would immediately lose his chips for making that call, river card be damned, and he would also be given a stern lecture on poker theory

You have said many times now that "it isn't supposed to happen". Well, yeah it is. If it's a 5% chance, that 4 is supposed to hit once in every 20 hands. If your buddy would make that push 100% of the time, he should expect to get beaten every now and then.

BTW, there were many hands that could have beaten him in that situation. The guy could have very easily had a small pocket pair based off the early action. If it was going to "ruin his poker life", maybe he should have played more conservatively.

i'm not sure you understand poker. if he had a small pocket pair, he is behind going to the river. then he would need 22 to have beaten dentist's buddy.

 

[Parmcat]

In the Poker game if Dentistry, Root Canals are the Rake

...they are the ####### Rake

 

[Sarnoff]

Cary Katz raised to 225,000 from the under-the-gun position only to have Connor Drinan three-bet to 580,000 from the big blind. Katz responded with a four-bet to 2 million. Drinan then moved all in and Katz called off for 5.79 million.

Katz: Ah As

Drinan: Ad Ac

The 2d Kh 5h flop gave Katz a freeroll to hearts, and the 4h turn made it a very real possibility.

"Oh my god," someone at the table said as the crowd moaned realizing one more heart would give Katz the massive pot.

The 2h river then shot shockwaves through the crowd. Sam Trickett and Antonio Esfandiari could not believe what happened and walked away from the tabled shaking their heads, while Katz and Drinan remained seated as the the floorman and dealer sorted out the stacks.

It was the worst bad beat in the world's biggest tournament and Drinan, who qualified for the tournament via a $25,000 satellite, was the unfortunate victim. The stacks were verified, and as it turned out Drinan had started the hand with slightly fewer chips.

"I'll never complain about having aces cracked again," Katz said after Drinan had exited the stage.

Video of the incident

 

[Dentist]

Cary Katz raised to 225,000 from the under-the-gun position only to have Connor Drinan three-bet to 580,000 from the big blind. Katz responded with a four-bet to 2 million. Drinan then moved all in and Katz called off for 5.79 million.

Katz: Ah As

Drinan: Ad Ac

The 2d Kh 5h flop gave Katz a freeroll to hearts, and the 4h turn made it a very real possibility.

"Oh my god," someone at the table said as the crowd moaned realizing one more heart would give Katz the massive pot.

The 2h river then shot shockwaves through the crowd. Sam Trickett and Antonio Esfandiari could not believe what happened and walked away from the tabled shaking their heads, while Katz and Drinan remained seated as the the floorman and dealer sorted out the stacks.

It was the worst bad beat in the world's biggest tournament and Drinan, who qualified for the tournament via a $25,000 satellite, was the unfortunate victim. The stacks were verified, and as it turned out Drinan had started the hand with slightly fewer chips.

"I'll never complain about having aces cracked again," Katz said after Drinan had exited the stage.

Video of the incident

Again.. I"m offended about this on a basis of odds... but I can deal with the odds that poker presents.. really.. i can

Both buys had every right to be in the pot and both made the correct play.

I hate it when my AA gets beat by KK all-in pre-flop as well, but at least I can understand and respect the other guy's play.

I'm only DEEPLY offended to the point of a near murderous rage when someone plays very badly and then is bailed out by the odds.

 

[NCCommish]

Cary Katz raised to 225,000 from the under-the-gun position only to have Connor Drinan three-bet to 580,000 from the big blind. Katz responded with a four-bet to 2 million. Drinan then moved all in and Katz called off for 5.79 million.

Katz: Ah As

Drinan: Ad Ac

The 2d Kh 5h flop gave Katz a freeroll to hearts, and the 4h turn made it a very real possibility.

"Oh my god," someone at the table said as the crowd moaned realizing one more heart would give Katz the massive pot.

The 2h river then shot shockwaves through the crowd. Sam Trickett and Antonio Esfandiari could not believe what happened and walked away from the tabled shaking their heads, while Katz and Drinan remained seated as the the floorman and dealer sorted out the stacks.

It was the worst bad beat in the world's biggest tournament and Drinan, who qualified for the tournament via a $25,000 satellite, was the unfortunate victim. The stacks were verified, and as it turned out Drinan had started the hand with slightly fewer chips.

"I'll never complain about having aces cracked again," Katz said after Drinan had exited the stage.

Video of the incident

Again.. I"m offended about this on a basis of odds... but I can deal with the odds that poker presents.. really.. i can

Both buys had every right to be in the pot and both made the correct play.

I hate it when my AA gets beat by KK all-in pre-flop as well, but at least I can understand and respect the other guy's play.

I'm only DEEPLY offended to the point of a near murderous rage when someone plays very badly and then is bailed out by the odds.

As the song says "go down gamblin' you may never have to go".

 

[KarmaPolice]

This thread is funny.

Like somebody else said, there are players who play stupidly. Maybe to the guy $300 wasn't anything and didn't care as much as your buddy. I would be willing to bet that there are people who would go all-in on stupid crap at the start of a tourney just on the off chance to double up their $ a couple times and be in a better position chip wise, and then start playing normally after that (especially after letting people see that they aren't that smart). Who knows.

I just find it hard to believe that somebody's poker life is done over $300. Hell, any of us would spend that going to a game, a concert, or just about anything fun over the weekend. Yeah, we'd get more than 5mins of fun, but you get the point.

 

[dhockster]

Your buddy got unlucky. But while the other guys call was bad, it was not totally horrible. If he put your friend on A-x, he would have had 9 outs (2 5's, 3 2's, 4 4's) on the river. Probably about a 20% chance he draws out. Of course your buddy had A-A so the other guy only had 4 outs (the 4 4's) so he had a bout a 9% chance to draw out. Just bad luck for your buddy. Like others have said, if he can't take bad luck, he shouldn't be playing poker. 9 times out of 10 your buddy doubles up. This time he lost all his money. C'est la vie.

 

[Dentist]

Your buddy got unlucky. But while the other guys call was bad, it was not totally horrible. If he put your friend on A-x, he would have had 9 outs (2 5's, 3 2's, 4 4's) on the river. Probably about a 20% chance he draws out. Of course your buddy had A-A so the other guy only had 4 outs (the 4 4's) so he had a bout a 9% chance to draw out. Just bad luck for your buddy. Like others have said, if he can't take bad luck, he shouldn't be playing poker. 9 times out of 10 your buddy doubles up. This time he lost all his money. C'est la vie.

playing 2 5 offsuit to a proper raise pre-flop is simply not defensible at a full ring game under almost any circumstances

pre-flop it was an F--- decision

on the flop it was slightly less bad... maybe just an F decision.. on the turn it was still an F--

 

[Ned]

proper

 

[dhockster]

Your buddy got unlucky. But while the other guys call was bad, it was not totally horrible. If he put your friend on A-x, he would have had 9 outs (2 5's, 3 2's, 4 4's) on the river. Probably about a 20% chance he draws out. Of course your buddy had A-A so the other guy only had 4 outs (the 4 4's) so he had a bout a 9% chance to draw out. Just bad luck for your buddy. Like others have said, if he can't take bad luck, he shouldn't be playing poker. 9 times out of 10 your buddy doubles up. This time he lost all his money. C'est la vie.

playing 2 5 offsuit to a proper raise pre-flop is simply not defensible at a full ring game under almost any circumstances

pre-flop it was an F--- decision

on the flop it was slightly less bad... maybe just an F decision.. on the turn it was still an F--

Again, you are mad because? Your friend made all the right plays here and lost because he was unlucky. THAT'S POKER! It's a game of skill AND chance!

 

[Dentist]

Your buddy got unlucky. But while the other guys call was bad, it was not totally horrible. If he put your friend on A-x, he would have had 9 outs (2 5's, 3 2's, 4 4's) on the river. Probably about a 20% chance he draws out. Of course your buddy had A-A so the other guy only had 4 outs (the 4 4's) so he had a bout a 9% chance to draw out. Just bad luck for your buddy. Like others have said, if he can't take bad luck, he shouldn't be playing poker. 9 times out of 10 your buddy doubles up. This time he lost all his money. C'est la vie.

playing 2 5 offsuit to a proper raise pre-flop is simply not defensible at a full ring game under almost any circumstances

pre-flop it was an F--- decision

on the flop it was slightly less bad... maybe just an F decision.. on the turn it was still an F--

Again, you are mad because? Your friend made all the right plays here and lost because he was unlucky. THAT'S POKER! It's a game of skill AND chance!

I'm mad the other player would play that badly.

I'm not asking for expert level play. Just something approaching reasonable... like "I read one strategy book" and remember about 1/2 of it.

The part that says: 5 2 is a ####### horrible hand and not playable under ANY circumstances to a proper pre-flop raise

 

[fred_1_15301]

Your buddy got unlucky. But while the other guys call was bad, it was not totally horrible. If he put your friend on A-x, he would have had 9 outs (2 5's, 3 2's, 4 4's) on the river. Probably about a 20% chance he draws out. Of course your buddy had A-A so the other guy only had 4 outs (the 4 4's) so he had a bout a 9% chance to draw out. Just bad luck for your buddy. Like others have said, if he can't take bad luck, he shouldn't be playing poker. 9 times out of 10 your buddy doubles up. This time he lost all his money. C'est la vie.

playing 2 5 offsuit to a proper raise pre-flop is simply not defensible at a full ring game under almost any circumstances

pre-flop it was an F--- decision

on the flop it was slightly less bad... maybe just an F decision.. on the turn it was still an F--

Again, you are mad because? Your friend made all the right plays here and lost because he was unlucky. THAT'S POKER! It's a game of skill AND chance!

I'm mad the other player would play that badly.

I'm not asking for expert level play. Just something approaching reasonable... like "I read one strategy book" and remember about 1/2 of it.

The part that says: 5 2 is a ####### horrible hand and not playable under ANY circumstances to a proper pre-flop raise

New to live poker?

 

[bryhamm]

Your buddy got unlucky. But while the other guys call was bad, it was not totally horrible. If he put your friend on A-x, he would have had 9 outs (2 5's, 3 2's, 4 4's) on the river. Probably about a 20% chance he draws out. Of course your buddy had A-A so the other guy only had 4 outs (the 4 4's) so he had a bout a 9% chance to draw out. Just bad luck for your buddy. Like others have said, if he can't take bad luck, he shouldn't be playing poker. 9 times out of 10 your buddy doubles up. This time he lost all his money. C'est la vie.

playing 2 5 offsuit to a proper raise pre-flop is simply not defensible at a full ring game under almost any circumstances

pre-flop it was an F--- decision

on the flop it was slightly less bad... maybe just an F decision.. on the turn it was still an F--

Again, you are mad because? Your friend made all the right plays here and lost because he was unlucky. THAT'S POKER! It's a game of skill AND chance!

I'm mad the other player would play that badly.

I'm not asking for expert level play. Just something approaching reasonable... like "I read one strategy book" and remember about 1/2 of it.

The part that says: 5 2 is a ####### horrible hand and not playable under ANY circumstances to a proper pre-flop raise

 

[fred_1_15301]

Your buddy got unlucky. But while the other guys call was bad, it was not totally horrible. If he put your friend on A-x, he would have had 9 outs (2 5's, 3 2's, 4 4's) on the river. Probably about a 20% chance he draws out. Of course your buddy had A-A so the other guy only had 4 outs (the 4 4's) so he had a bout a 9% chance to draw out. Just bad luck for your buddy. Like others have said, if he can't take bad luck, he shouldn't be playing poker. 9 times out of 10 your buddy doubles up. This time he lost all his money. C'est la vie.

playing 2 5 offsuit to a proper raise pre-flop is simply not defensible at a full ring game under almost any circumstances

pre-flop it was an F--- decision

on the flop it was slightly less bad... maybe just an F decision.. on the turn it was still an F--

Again, you are mad because? Your friend made all the right plays here and lost because he was unlucky. THAT'S POKER! It's a game of skill AND chance!

I'm mad the other player would play that badly.

I'm not asking for expert level play. Just something approaching reasonable... like "I read one strategy book" and remember about 1/2 of it.

The part that says: 5 2 is a ####### horrible hand and not playable under ANY circumstances to a proper pre-flop raise

 

[Zow]

Here's the thing though.. I can ALMOST accept a bad beat where the other player had every right to be in the hand and for all intents and purpose played their hand correctly.

If I get all-in with AA vs. KK pre-flop and lose to a King on the board... I really can accept that.

But I had a buddy get AA in a tourney... raise the proper amount.. flop was A 5 3 rainbow... Bet it hard (didn't slowplay) and some guy who played 5 2 stayed in the hand.. all the money went in on the turn when a random 9 hit (total rainbow) and then when the cards were flipped up on the turn his AA was against 5 2... and the river was a 4 to make the wheel and my buddy was knocked out of the tournament.. and not a $50 donkament.. a $300 WSOP circuit event.

Granted it wasn't the same monetary amount... but a REAL bad beat to me is when completely horriffic play is rewarded... that 5 2 guy had no right to see the flop let alone the river and commit all his chips.

He was a horrible poker player and ruined the tournament for my friend... that's a BAD beat... it's not just about the odds.. it's the scenario.

I get that low % things in life happen... every time a .250 baseball player gets a hit it's the equivalent of a poker bad beat... AK vs. AQ ish....

But when horrible play is bailed out.. well i just can't handle that.

You see these types of morons in cash games as well. I've been on the wrong end of these types of beats many times. I've gotten pretty good at complimenting them after the hand for their "good play". It's players like these that you want on the table with you.

I can also semi-accept those people in a cash game because I can reload and get a shot at my money back.

In a tournament that guy just ruined my chances, my day, and a small percentage of my life... punching him in the face and handing him a copy of Poker for Dummies is my only possible retribution

There is always another tournament. If everyone played perfectly your chances of winning would diminish. That's why being successful long term with poker is 90% about bankroll management and having the mental fortitude to handle the stress of variance.

See if you're a pro there's always another tournament.. but for me and my buddy we can't get a good tournament without driving to one of these WSOP circuit events and we get to stay 3 days which means 1 or 2 tournaments.. and then it's bye bye until next year.

So my buddies life was ruined poker-wise for nearly an entire year based on this idiot's play... He's accepted that you can lose your stack on a coinflip or on a QQ vs. JJ type of situation... but not where some BASS POLE comes in and plays cards in such a way that it appears like he doesn't even understand how the game works, let alone ever read even 10 pages of ONE strategy guide.

It's disgusting and should be punished

WE DO NOT WANT TO DO ANYTHING EVER TO DETER BAD PLAY. YOU COULDN'T BE MORE WRONG.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

It would be cool if you could modify the game to reward correct play and minimize the luck factor

 

[jon_mx]

In hindsight, it was the proper call.

 

[Dentist]

In hindsight, it was the proper call.

you've got me there... results oriented.. right play

 

[Dentist]

Look, i realize on paper you want to play against complete idiots.. and in cash play this concept does tend to work... when a guy wins a pot off some completely horrible play it's only a matter of time before he gives it all back.. you just have to hope you are the one that gets your money back rather than the shark next to you.

But in a tournament one donk can ruin my tournament... and it's so hard as it is to get deep in the tournament that it's just maddening.

So my main beef with bad play is in tournament settings.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

So it sounds like you would rather everyone always play correctly, which means you're going to go LESS deep into tournaments on average, and the luck/variance factor (which you hate) is going to be INCREASED overall, just to avoid that one time where one of those horrible plays is going to beat you?

When some guy stays in a hand he has no business being in and ends up donating free chips to your buddy, does he give the chips back and tell the guy that a pre-flop fold was the correct play? Or does he happily keep the chips and laugh a little inside as he scoops the pot and advances further into the tournament?

 

[Sarnoff]

If everyone always played correctly, the winner would be determined by who got the best starting cards. It'd basically be roulette.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

If luck wasn't involved, Phil Helmuth would win every time.

 

[Dentist]

So it sounds like you would rather everyone always play correctly, which means you're going to go LESS deep into tournaments on average, and the luck/variance factor (which you hate) is going to be INCREASED overall, just to avoid that one time where one of those horrible plays is going to beat you?

When some guy stays in a hand he has no business being in and ends up donating free chips to your buddy, does he give the chips back and tell the guy that a pre-flop fold was the correct play? Or does he happily keep the chips and laugh a little inside as he scoops the pot and advances further into the tournament?

So it sounds like you would rather everyone always play correctly, which means you're going to go LESS deep into tournaments on average, and the luck/variance factor (which you hate) is going to be INCREASED overall, just to avoid that one time where one of those horrible plays is going to beat you?

When some guy stays in a hand he has no business being in and ends up donating free chips to your buddy, does he give the chips back and tell the guy that a pre-flop fold was the correct play? Or does he happily keep the chips and laugh a little inside as he scoops the pot and advances further into the tournament?

He keeps the chips, and makes sure to announce to the table that it's a damn good thing that the card the horrible player in question didn't get the card he needed for his 4% win or he would've had to use his AK

 

[Sarnoff]

My Worst Beat Ever (below) was made when I taunted and goaded a guy into making a terrible play at the right time for me. Basically would have won me the tournament right then and there. But he hit a 330-to-1 shot and I went home without even cashing. But I still remember that I made the guy make the perfect move for me, and I'm proud of that, not disappointed that it didn't work out.

Spoiler

5 left in a small tourney. Top 4 paid. I'm #2 in chips with a huge stack. Guy across the table from me is #1 with a slightly bigger stack, maybe 1 or 2 blinds more than me. The other three are scattered between us and each have only 2 or 3 blinds. So, me and the bigstack are taking our shots at the little guys, trying to force them out, but, I'm well aware I don't want to tangle with this guy at the wrong time.

Anyway, the 3 little stacks are playing super-tight, knowing that they're on the bubble and every fold is an opportunity for someone else to go broke. Only defending when they have to, mathematically. And the 3 little stacks just won't die. Every time me or bigstack try to knock one out they get lucky and double up. Now, once they doubled, they insta-folded the rest of their hands unless they had AA, KK, or AK, figuring they can wait out the two smaller littlestacks. But this went on and on for a few rounds and no one bubbled out, just passing the same chips around to the littlestacks but no one moving.

Knowing how the littlestacks played made it very easy to steal blinds, of course. So it really didn't matter if I doubled one of them up by giving them 2 or 3 blinds, because I could steal the chips back in the next few hands. We were seated with 1 littlestack on my right and 2 on my left between me and the bigstack. So I had 2 steal opportunities before I would get tangled in bigstack's blind, but he didn't have the same chance to steal outside of hands I was involved in.

I was playing exceptionally weak on purpose and it annoyed the bigstack. If bigstack hadn't acted yet, I wouldn't raise preflop--I'd limp (to not commit too many chips if bigstack wanted in on it too), see the flop, then make a minimum bet to push the littlestacks out (because they can't call without stone cold nuts). I was seeing cheap flops at minimum expense, then acting last as the button post-flop and scooping blinds. Bigstack was getting very frustrated with me and I knew it.

So I set up to make a play. I knew he was annoyed and I knew I could trap him. I just needed the hand, and then suddenly it happened: Bigstack in the big blind. Littlestack between us folds. I have A8o and limp. Next littlestack folds and the one in the small blind completes to see the flop. Bigstack checks. Flop is A-8-8. I have a boat. Littlestack in the small blind checks. Bigstack checks. I make the same weak play I've been making for the last 20 minutes, a 1-blind minimum bet to push them out. Littlestack folds. Bigstack takes a minute, thinking, then pushes all-in. He knows I can't call with an ace, even if I have it. He's perfectly representing the 8 there. And even if I have an 8 I can't really gamble it up with him, can I? He's making a move to make me stop me from trying to steal his blind in the future. I've totally set him up to make this play.

So, I insta-call, because I've got the 8 and the A making it a boat. He sheepishly turns over his cards. "You caught me. I thought I could make you fold." He's got J5o. Nothing. Absolute squat. We count up the chips and he's gonna have about 2.5 blinds left. I'm about to take down a pot with +95% of the chips, on the bubble, against 4 guys with 2 blinds each desperate not to go home with nothing to show for it. I should win this tourney in about 9 hands after this, no doubt.

He looks sick. Dealer drops the turn and the river. I pack up and go home.

But I'm not upset about my play. I did it right. I set the guy up and he got bailed out. Now I just tell the story to tell it, but I'm in no way upset about any of it. I played right, both the cards and the man. I got into his head and made him screw up royally. Just completely pulled his pants down. I can't be angry at how it turned out.

And, yeah, he won the thing in like 6 more hands.

 

[Dentist]

If everyone always played correctly, the winner would be determined by who got the best starting cards. It'd basically be roulette.

There is a range of acceptable play.... I'm not suggesting everyone play "perfect" poker.. obviously in that scenario it is just roulette.

If I have AA and the flop is K 6 2 and you happened to play 66 and stack me off... i can accept that.

But if you played 6 2 and stack me off.... UNACCEPTABLE to play that to a proper raise

 

[fred_1_15301]

My Worst Beat Ever (below) was made when I taunted and goaded a guy into making a terrible play at the right time for me. Basically would have won me the tournament right then and there. But he hit a 330-to-1 shot and I went home without even cashing. But I still remember that I made the guy make the perfect move for me, and I'm proud of that, not disappointed that it didn't work out.

Spoiler

5 left in a small tourney. Top 4 paid. I'm #2 in chips with a huge stack. Guy across the table from me is #1 with a slightly bigger stack, maybe 1 or 2 blinds more than me. The other three are scattered between us and each have only 2 or 3 blinds. So, me and the bigstack are taking our shots at the little guys, trying to force them out, but, I'm well aware I don't want to tangle with this guy at the wrong time.

Anyway, the 3 little stacks are playing super-tight, knowing that they're on the bubble and every fold is an opportunity for someone else to go broke. Only defending when they have to, mathematically. And the 3 little stacks just won't die. Every time me or bigstack try to knock one out they get lucky and double up. Now, once they doubled, they insta-folded the rest of their hands unless they had AA, KK, or AK, figuring they can wait out the two smaller littlestacks. But this went on and on for a few rounds and no one bubbled out, just passing the same chips around to the littlestacks but no one moving.

Knowing how the littlestacks played made it very easy to steal blinds, of course. So it really didn't matter if I doubled one of them up by giving them 2 or 3 blinds, because I could steal the chips back in the next few hands. We were seated with 1 littlestack on my right and 2 on my left between me and the bigstack. So I had 2 steal opportunities before I would get tangled in bigstack's blind, but he didn't have the same chance to steal outside of hands I was involved in.

I was playing exceptionally weak on purpose and it annoyed the bigstack. If bigstack hadn't acted yet, I wouldn't raise preflop--I'd limp (to not commit too many chips if bigstack wanted in on it too), see the flop, then make a minimum bet to push the littlestacks out (because they can't call without stone cold nuts). I was seeing cheap flops at minimum expense, then acting last as the button post-flop and scooping blinds. Bigstack was getting very frustrated with me and I knew it.

So I set up to make a play. I knew he was annoyed and I knew I could trap him. I just needed the hand, and then suddenly it happened: Bigstack in the big blind. Littlestack between us folds. I have A8o and limp. Next littlestack folds and the one in the small blind completes to see the flop. Bigstack checks. Flop is A-8-8. I have a boat. Littlestack in the small blind checks. Bigstack checks. I make the same weak play I've been making for the last 20 minutes, a 1-blind minimum bet to push them out. Littlestack folds. Bigstack takes a minute, thinking, then pushes all-in. He knows I can't call with an ace, even if I have it. He's perfectly representing the 8 there. And even if I have an 8 I can't really gamble it up with him, can I? He's making a move to make me stop me from trying to steal his blind in the future. I've totally set him up to make this play.

So, I insta-call, because I've got the 8 and the A making it a boat. He sheepishly turns over his cards. "You caught me. I thought I could make you fold." He's got J5o. Nothing. Absolute squat. We count up the chips and he's gonna have about 2.5 blinds left. I'm about to take down a pot with +95% of the chips, on the bubble, against 4 guys with 2 blinds each desperate not to go home with nothing to show for it. I should win this tourney in about 9 hands after this, no doubt.

He looks sick. Dealer drops the turn and the river. I pack up and go home.

But I'm not upset about my play. I did it right. I set the guy up and he got bailed out. Now I just tell the story to tell it, but I'm in no way upset about any of it. I played right, both the cards and the man. I got into his head and made him screw up royally. Just completely pulled his pants down. I can't be angry at how it turned out.

And, yeah, he won the thing in like 6 more hands.

That's sick

 

[Das Boot]

If everyone always played correctly, the winner would be determined by who got the best starting cards. It'd basically be roulette.

There is a range of acceptable play.... I'm not suggesting everyone play "perfect" poker.. obviously in that scenario it is just roulette.

If I have AA and the flop is K 6 2 and you happened to play 66 and stack me off... i can accept that.

But if you played 6 2 and stack me off.... UNACCEPTABLE to play that to a proper raise

I think bluffing is one of the most fun and powerful parts of the game.

Let 'em "catch" you a couple of times on small hands, then drop the hammer on a big pot.

If nothing else, stay unpredictable and sooner or later it'll pay off.

There's lots of different strategies besides just playing by the book.

In your version of the game, there wouldn't even be a need to hide the hole cards - deal them face up to everyone, determine the proper order of play for each player, and progress according strictly to the odds - no decision making required.