Did the Lions get bent over by the refs? (1 Viewer)

[Smack Tripper]

The league would also help itself if they held officials to the same scrutiny as players and coaches with respect to the media. To have written quotes from a pool reporter is just weak.

Sounds like you have your first motion in your case.

what lawyer did you use to get your name back?

just kidding, big fan of the cappy brand

 

[Short Corner]

That BS acting job by the punter that gave the Lions a 1st down deep in their own territory after the Cowboys held them was more of a controversial call, IMO. He was yoking it up and slapping five after it was called. Total crap.

Wasn't it just running in to the kicker? Can't they basically call that any time someone runs in to the kicker? I thought for sure they would call it when the Det guy ran in to the Dallas kicker.

Was not roughing the kicker but running into the kicker and I've seen much worse examples where the flag is not thrown, like your second example above. I think the Lions' punter deserved an Emmy or Oscar or Tony or whatever the hell those acting trophies are called for flopping after getting grazed.

Rusher went thru his plant leg. Punter didn't need to sell it. Automatic.

 

[Tom Servo]

I am not a Lion fan, but I live in Michigan. Does anyone think I can get some money from this law suit? How much money are we talking? Is it a lock that we win and I should book my vacation now? Maybe i should edit the first part of my post, will that disqualify me from my portion of the decision?

Any lawyers that could answer my question? TIA

The sad part is that the damages will be so small that the Lions will just give everyone in the metro Detroit area a car flag as compensation.

 

[Ilov80s]

I would imagine there will be a class action lawsuit by Lions fans here... and I have to wonder if this might be the one time a fan base ended up winning some damages in this kind of a scenario. The call itself was awful, and coupled with many other ones (the Beasley one really annoyed me, its now the D-backs fault that Beasley is 5'8 and standard contact results in a blow to the head). But what is the procederual protocol that played out on this penalty? Not one of us has ever seen a play overturned in this fashion.

I'm also not one to call for jobs, but my goodness, I would fire this crew tomorrow... again, less so for the bad call but more for the aftermath and perception they have created... Its a play with that many potential ramifications...

if its not swept under the rug, which the broadcast partners and media puppets like King are sure to do. Kudos to Fox and Periera for being critical, and ESPN got on it, but this is slowly spinning out of the cycle already.

Its not the worst call I've ever seen, but without question, the worst process since... the 72 olympics? The end of Meldrick Taylor and Julio Cesar Chavez?

You mean the fight where Meldrick Taylor had his soul beaten out of him, was hospitalized for a facial fracture, urinating blood, was disorientated, suffered memory loss and never in his life fully recovered mentally or physically from the fight...yeah, Meldrick really deserved to win that one.

 

[Bucky86]

Did anyone see what the refs were doing while they talked it over after initially calling the penalty? I read something where the Lion's players were complaining that the refs were watching replays on the big screen and using that as their unofficial replay review.

 

[Spartans Rule]

I am not a Lion fan, but I live in Michigan. Does anyone think I can get some money from this law suit? How much money are we talking? Is it a lock that we win and I should book my vacation now? Maybe i should edit the first part of my post, will that disqualify me from my portion of the decision?

Any lawyers that could answer my question? TIA

Try to find a used Joey Harrington Lions jersey at a garage sale. That should be enough to sell your story.

And yes, go ahead and book that vacation. We're all gonna be rich. Not that any amount of money can compensate us for the irreparable emotional harm we all suffered when a ref made a bad call in a football game.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

when things like this happen.....people are usually on one of two sides:

side 1: they got screwed and it probably cost them the game

side 2: they had other opportunities, it wasn't just this play that cost them the game (look at A, B, C)

well IMO.....in general I think (side 2) people often underestimate the ramifications of plays like this......and it is always too easy to say "they had other chances, etc".....

most coaches and players will tell you....that these games (especially highly competitive ones between two balanced teams) often come down to 2 or 3 crucial plays......

IMO this was DPI because in today's game, this was slam dunk DPI (not that I think DPI should be called the way it is).....but for the way DPI is officiated in today's NFL this was a slam dunk.....we have seen MUCH less called.....

they got bent over because of the way it was handled....if DPI is called and enforced, you really don't hear anything more about this play.....most reasonable people could have lived with the call....but the way it was mishandled leaves a real bad feeling......

most will have to decide for themselves.....but IMO, DET chances of winning that game skyrocket if the call is enforced.....if that wasn't in some way, shape, or form DPI....then I don't know what is

they could have came out with offsetting "illegal hands/facemask on the offense and DPI on the defense" and avoided the whole thing.....they had a few options here and they picked the absolute worst one....

 

[Dan Lambskin]

Class action lawsuit

 

[Smack Tripper]

I would imagine there will be a class action lawsuit by Lions fans here... and I have to wonder if this might be the one time a fan base ended up winning some damages in this kind of a scenario. The call itself was awful, and coupled with many other ones (the Beasley one really annoyed me, its now the D-backs fault that Beasley is 5'8 and standard contact results in a blow to the head). But what is the procederual protocol that played out on this penalty? Not one of us has ever seen a play overturned in this fashion.

I'm also not one to call for jobs, but my goodness, I would fire this crew tomorrow... again, less so for the bad call but more for the aftermath and perception they have created... Its a play with that many potential ramifications...

if its not swept under the rug, which the broadcast partners and media puppets like King are sure to do. Kudos to Fox and Periera for being critical, and ESPN got on it, but this is slowly spinning out of the cycle already.

Its not the worst call I've ever seen, but without question, the worst process since... the 72 olympics? The end of Meldrick Taylor and Julio Cesar Chavez?

You mean the fight where Meldrick Taylor had his soul beaten out of him, was hospitalized for a facial fracture, urinating blood, was disorientated, suffered memory loss and never in his life fully recovered mentally or physically from the fight...yeah, Meldrick really deserved to win that one.

Yes the same one who had a fight stopped against a don king fighter with two seconds left.

You think that was a great call, let me know where Richard Steele is these days

 

[Ilov80s]

I would imagine there will be a class action lawsuit by Lions fans here... and I have to wonder if this might be the one time a fan base ended up winning some damages in this kind of a scenario. The call itself was awful, and coupled with many other ones (the Beasley one really annoyed me, its now the D-backs fault that Beasley is 5'8 and standard contact results in a blow to the head). But what is the procederual protocol that played out on this penalty? Not one of us has ever seen a play overturned in this fashion.

I'm also not one to call for jobs, but my goodness, I would fire this crew tomorrow... again, less so for the bad call but more for the aftermath and perception they have created... Its a play with that many potential ramifications...

if its not swept under the rug, which the broadcast partners and media puppets like King are sure to do. Kudos to Fox and Periera for being critical, and ESPN got on it, but this is slowly spinning out of the cycle already.

Its not the worst call I've ever seen, but without question, the worst process since... the 72 olympics? The end of Meldrick Taylor and Julio Cesar Chavez?

You mean the fight where Meldrick Taylor had his soul beaten out of him, was hospitalized for a facial fracture, urinating blood, was disorientated, suffered memory loss and never in his life fully recovered mentally or physically from the fight...yeah, Meldrick really deserved to win that one.

Yes the same one who had a fight stopped against a don king fighter with two seconds left. You think that was a great call, let me know where Richard Steele is these days

It doesn't matter how much time is left in the round, if a guy is using the ropes to balance himself and can't respond when the ref asks him if he is ok, the fight is over. Steele is in the boxing hall of fame.

 

[tdoss]

I have never understood how some can turn a blind eye to an obvious bad call and shrug it off behind the notion of "they didn't lose just because of that call".

It's ridiculous. If one call doesn't matter...then it really shouldn't matter that coaches play the field position game. What could 5 or ten yards possibly do to turn the game in their favor?

Do you see how ridiculous that notion is? In a close game...EVERYTHING counts and as the game goes on, it counts more as you near the end. The team screwed by a bad call has less time to make up for it.

I have Dallas going to Super Bowl in my fantasy playoffs. I wanted and thought Dallas would win, obviously.

But that call was bad...just awful. If they'd have missed it or had offsetting of some kind...it would've swept under the rug with bad calls as usual...but catching it, throwing the flag, calling it and THEN picking it up is just terrible and starts to put the game's integrity on the line. I know some of you are NBA fans...but I'll be damned if I want that for the NFL...but it looks like it's inevitable. We already have Brady rules and preferential treatment of certain players so I guess it's par for the course.

 

[tdoss]

I would imagine there will be a class action lawsuit by Lions fans here... and I have to wonder if this might be the one time a fan base ended up winning some damages in this kind of a scenario. The call itself was awful, and coupled with many other ones (the Beasley one really annoyed me, its now the D-backs fault that Beasley is 5'8 and standard contact results in a blow to the head). But what is the procederual protocol that played out on this penalty? Not one of us has ever seen a play overturned in this fashion.

I'm also not one to call for jobs, but my goodness, I would fire this crew tomorrow... again, less so for the bad call but more for the aftermath and perception they have created... Its a play with that many potential ramifications...

if its not swept under the rug, which the broadcast partners and media puppets like King are sure to do. Kudos to Fox and Periera for being critical, and ESPN got on it, but this is slowly spinning out of the cycle already.

Its not the worst call I've ever seen, but without question, the worst process since... the 72 olympics? The end of Meldrick Taylor and Julio Cesar Chavez?

You mean the fight where Meldrick Taylor had his soul beaten out of him, was hospitalized for a facial fracture, urinating blood, was disorientated, suffered memory loss and never in his life fully recovered mentally or physically from the fight...yeah, Meldrick really deserved to win that one.

Yes the same one who had a fight stopped against a don king fighter with two seconds left. You think that was a great call, let me know where Richard Steele is these days

It doesn't matter how much time is left in the round, if a guy is using the ropes to balance himself and can't respond when the ref asks him if he is ok, the fight is over. Steele is in the boxing hall of fame.

In defense of Steele...80's is right. Ref isn't looking at time remaining...he's looking at the fighter's response and counting.It just sucks that there was only 2-3 seconds remaining...Chavez wouldn't have been able to land a blow by the time Steele could call fight back on...so it ends up being an awful stoppage for that reason alone...not that Steele made a bad judgment.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

I have never understood how some can turn a blind eye to an obvious bad call and shrug it off behind the notion of "they didn't lose just because of that call".

It's ridiculous. If one call doesn't matter...then it really shouldn't matter that coaches play the field position game. What could 5 or ten yards possibly do to turn the game in their favor?

Do you see how ridiculous that notion is? In a close game...EVERYTHING counts and as the game goes on, it counts more as you near the end. The team screwed by a bad call has less time to make up for it.

I have Dallas going to Super Bowl in my fantasy playoffs. I wanted and thought Dallas would win, obviously.

But that call was bad...just awful. If they'd have missed it or had offsetting of some kind...it would've swept under the rug with bad calls as usual...but catching it, throwing the flag, calling it and THEN picking it up is just terrible and starts to put the game's integrity on the line. I know some of you are NBA fans...but I'll be damned if I want that for the NFL...but it looks like it's inevitable. We already have Brady rules and preferential treatment of certain players so I guess it's par for the course.

Related

 

[Angry Beavers]

Oh no.... it was completely fair... in other news... http://deadspin.com/nfl-execs-pissed-that-head-of-officiating-seen-on-cowbo-1618048217

 

[gmbacm]

I met Morelli once, and while some of you sour grapes won't believe this, he's a good dude. Saw him again a week later at the same bar and Zangrilii poured us drinks all night...on the house. Great guys.

Zangrilli? The guy that stole all the magic football money?

IS it stealing if someone gives it to you?

 

[lod01]

No. If this coaching staff had any balls it would have never come to this. I said before the game that this team would be 1 and done because it has no killer instinct. Only 8 targets to Calvin. This team has been herminated.

 

[DropKick]

Lions fan here. Here's the problem I have. I can deal with a bad call, but I can't deal with is the right call being made and then all of a sudden the flag is picked up and no explanation is given. It's 100% DPI there is no doubt about it. They made the right call and then made the wrong call.

That being said, it's detroit so nobody will really care. Just like nobody will care Mincey stomped on Bell, because "detroit is a dirty team and they deserve to lose."

Or simply because the video of it is much less damning.

Are you really equating this play to the Suh step where he lifts up his other foot and puts more weight on Rodgers' leg?

It seems to me that Mincey leaned away from Bell after his momentum took him there. You know, to avoid putting the weight on his leg.

like the guy in the article said, suhs fine was also mislabel as a stomp, but that didn't stop the NFL. again doesn't matter because it's the Lions and nobody really cares about the bottom feeders.

You, my friend, are so wrong.

 

[DropKick]

I have never understood how some can turn a blind eye to an obvious bad call and shrug it off behind the notion of "they didn't lose just because of that call".

It's ridiculous. If one call doesn't matter...then it really shouldn't matter that coaches play the field position game. What could 5 or ten yards possibly do to turn the game in their favor?

Do you see how ridiculous that notion is? In a close game...EVERYTHING counts and as the game goes on, it counts more as you near the end. The team screwed by a bad call has less time to make up for it.

I have Dallas going to Super Bowl in my fantasy playoffs. I wanted and thought Dallas would win, obviously.

But that call was bad...just awful. If they'd have missed it or had offsetting of some kind...it would've swept under the rug with bad calls as usual...but catching it, throwing the flag, calling it and THEN picking it up is just terrible and starts to put the game's integrity on the line. I know some of you are NBA fans...but I'll be damned if I want that for the NFL...but it looks like it's inevitable. We already have Brady rules and preferential treatment of certain players so I guess it's par for the course.

I agree with the majority of your post but what, in God's name does it have to do with Tom Brady?

 

[tdoss]

I have never understood how some can turn a blind eye to an obvious bad call and shrug it off behind the notion of "they didn't lose just because of that call".

It's ridiculous. If one call doesn't matter...then it really shouldn't matter that coaches play the field position game. What could 5 or ten yards possibly do to turn the game in their favor?

Do you see how ridiculous that notion is? In a close game...EVERYTHING counts and as the game goes on, it counts more as you near the end. The team screwed by a bad call has less time to make up for it.

I have Dallas going to Super Bowl in my fantasy playoffs. I wanted and thought Dallas would win, obviously.

But that call was bad...just awful. If they'd have missed it or had offsetting of some kind...it would've swept under the rug with bad calls as usual...but catching it, throwing the flag, calling it and THEN picking it up is just terrible and starts to put the game's integrity on the line. I know some of you are NBA fans...but I'll be damned if I want that for the NFL...but it looks like it's inevitable. We already have Brady rules and preferential treatment of certain players so I guess it's par for the course.

I agree with the majority of your post but what, in God's name does it have to do with Tom Brady?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75YPZmpp1Wk

 

[flapgreen]

I have never understood how some can turn a blind eye to an obvious bad call and shrug it off behind the notion of "they didn't lose just because of that call".

It's ridiculous. If one call doesn't matter...then it really shouldn't matter that coaches play the field position game. What could 5 or ten yards possibly do to turn the game in their favor?

Do you see how ridiculous that notion is? In a close game...EVERYTHING counts and as the game goes on, it counts more as you near the end. The team screwed by a bad call has less time to make up for it.

I have Dallas going to Super Bowl in my fantasy playoffs. I wanted and thought Dallas would win, obviously.

But that call was bad...just awful. If they'd have missed it or had offsetting of some kind...it would've swept under the rug with bad calls as usual...but catching it, throwing the flag, calling it and THEN picking it up is just terrible and starts to put the game's integrity on the line. I know some of you are NBA fans...but I'll be damned if I want that for the NFL...but it looks like it's inevitable. We already have Brady rules and preferential treatment of certain players so I guess it's par for the course.

It's very odd.

 

[Tom Servo]

Oh no.... it was completely fair... in other news... http://deadspin.com/nfl-execs-pissed-that-head-of-officiating-seen-on-cowbo-1618048217

Welcome to 2 pages ago.

 

[Sabertooth]

I don't think people turn a blind eye to it so much as people realize that every call did not go one team's way. Terrence Williams got pushed in the back on a bomb, no call. Dallas' punter go touched a lot harder than Detroit's did and there was no call. It all kind of shakes out in the end because there is so much ambiguity to it.

Sure Detroit MIGHT have benefited from a PI call but then again, Stafford MIGHT have thrown a pick 6 on the very next play. If Dallas gets that PI call for the bump in the back on Williams, they might have thrown a TD to Dez or Witten after than. If they get the running into the kicker call, they might have drove down and scored a TD.

Nobody knows what would have happened. Any change in the game MIGHT have benefited Detroit enough to win. But the game went how it went. It's over and no amount over arguing is going to change that.

 

[Sabertooth]

This is the running into the kicker call that didn't happen explained in detail.

Play: Players contacted a punter twice in Dallas, but only one was called a penalty.
Referee: Morelli
Analysis: The first instance came with 7:35 remaining in the first quarter. The Cowboys' Dakota Watson extended in an attempt to block Sam Martin's punt for the Lions. Martin got the punt away cleanly, and Watson hit the ground underneath him. Martin fell over the top of Watson.

Although there was minimal contact between the two, Watson still violated the rules for running into the kicker. Among the definitions provided in Rule 12, Section 2, Article 10, Item 2(b) is if the defender "slides under the kicker, preventing him from returning both feet the ground." Watson's movement was a clear example, and Morelli's crew got the call right.

Meanwhile, in the second quarter, the Lions' George Winn got past Cowboys blocker Gavin Escobar and contacted punter Chris Jones, who fell to the ground. Morelli's crew did not make a call. Had Escobar blocked Winn into Jones? Was the contact worth a penalty? Those are the two key questions.

NFL Nation: Wild-Card Coverage• Arizona at Carolina
• Baltimore at Pittsburgh
• Cincinnati at Indianapolis
• Detroit at Dallas
Winn's momentum from beating Escobar carried him into Jones, but it would be tough to argue he was blocked into him. The aforementioned rule, however, includes this clause: "It is not a foul if the contact is not severe."

Although we have seen roughing the kicker called before in similar situations, the contact did not seem severe to me. Winn actually grabbed Jones' jersey with his left hand in an attempt to keep him upright. It was a defensible no-call.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I don't think people turn a blind eye to it so much as people realize that every call did not go one team's way. Terrence Williams got pushed in the back on a bomb, no call. Dallas' punter go touched a lot harder than Detroit's did and there was no call. It all kind of shakes out in the end because there is so much ambiguity to it.

Sure Detroit MIGHT have benefited from a PI call but then again, Stafford MIGHT have thrown a pick 6 on the very next play. If Dallas gets that PI call for the bump in the back on Williams, they might have thrown a TD to Dez or Witten after than. If they get the running into the kicker call, they might have drove down and scored a TD.

Nobody knows what would have happened. Any change in the game MIGHT have benefited Detroit enough to win. But the game went how it went. It's over and no amount over arguing is going to change that.

What made it controversial is that the flag was thrown and the penalty was announced and then it was negated without explanation (and also that Dez Bryant ran onto the field with his helmet off to yell at the refs in the interim). It was a very unusual sequence of events. I'm not sure why people keep ignoring that in the discussion and talking about it as if it was a run of the mill blown call. As you say, blown calls happen all the time and they generally even out over time. This was not that. This was a correct call that was subsequently reversed and became a blown call quite a while after the actual play took place. It was very, very unusual.

Also, Detroit WOULD have benefited from the PI call (or a defensive holding call). There's no "might" about it. Yes, subsequent events might not have gone their way, but that doesn't make it a question. Would you say that a team "might" benefit from a pick-six because the other team could conceivably score five touchdowns in a row after that? No, of course not. If a play makes a team more likely to win, they benefit from the play. Detroit would have benefited significantly from the call standing. I think the reversal shifted their win expectancy something like 15% according to models.

 

[culdeus]

Class action lawsuit

Has this been filed yet?

 

[Cyclones]

Class action lawsuit

Has this been filed yet?

Has to be schtick right?

 

[Stinkin Ref]

I would imagine there will be a class action lawsuit by Lions fans here... and I have to wonder if this might be the one time a fan base ended up winning some damages in this kind of a scenario. The call itself was awful, and coupled with many other ones (the Beasley one really annoyed me, its now the D-backs fault that Beasley is 5'8 and standard contact results in a blow to the head). But what is the procederual protocol that played out on this penalty? Not one of us has ever seen a play overturned in this fashion.

I'm also not one to call for jobs, but my goodness, I would fire this crew tomorrow... again, less so for the bad call but more for the aftermath and perception they have created... Its a play with that many potential ramifications...

if its not swept under the rug, which the broadcast partners and media puppets like King are sure to do. Kudos to Fox and Periera for being critical, and ESPN got on it, but this is slowly spinning out of the cycle already.

Its not the worst call I've ever seen, but without question, the worst process since... the 72 olympics? The end of Meldrick Taylor and Julio Cesar Chavez?

You mean the fight where Meldrick Taylor had his soul beaten out of him, was hospitalized for a facial fracture, urinating blood, was disorientated, suffered memory loss and never in his life fully recovered mentally or physically from the fight...yeah, Meldrick really deserved to win that one.

Yes the same one who had a fight stopped against a don king fighter with two seconds left.You think that was a great call, let me know where Richard Steele is these days

It doesn't matter how much time is left in the round, if a guy is using the ropes to balance himself and can't respond when the ref asks him if he is ok, the fight is over. Steele is in the boxing hall of fame.

In defense of Steele...80's is right. Ref isn't looking at time remaining...he's looking at the fighter's response and counting.It just sucks that there was only 2-3 seconds remaining...Chavez wouldn't have been able to land a blow by the time Steele could call fight back on...so it ends up being an awful stoppage for that reason alone...not that Steele made a bad judgment.

I'm not real familiar with the fight you are discussing....but in boxing there is a signal given to the boxers and the ref when there are 10 seconds left in the round.....so while I agree the ref isn't "looking" at the time remaining......he knows......he has a mental 10 second clock ticking in his head......you see them reacting to it in almost every fight in every round.....the ref is usually anticipating the bell and you can see him getting ready to separate fighters even when there is little to no action going on.....the ref knew the end of the round was imminent....

 

[Da Guru]

What would have been somewhat acceptable here would have been a "No Call" A no call would have left some people #####ing for that play alone thinking it was wrong but it would have been over the next snap. Throwing the flag and then picking it up made matters much worse for the Lions, refs and the NFL. Now they are dissecting the tape like the Zapruder film and finding 3 fouls by the Cowboys on one play.

The NFL and in particular Dean Blandino are to blame. Blandino is the one who a few years back starting putting together teams of officials for playoff games that have never worked together before. So the trust factor is just not there. The official who threw the flag was right next to the play, an official 20 yards away said there was not enough contact. All the official who threw the flag had to say was "There was more than enough contact" and the penalty stands. Having not worked together may cause a little more intimidation to the official.... and with the crowd screaming and Dez Bryant running on the field going haywire it could have put doubt in the mind of the official.

 

[Guest]

I don't think people turn a blind eye to it so much as people realize that every call did not go one team's way. Terrence Williams got pushed in the back on a bomb, no call. Dallas' punter go touched a lot harder than Detroit's did and there was no call. It all kind of shakes out in the end because there is so much ambiguity to it.

Sure Detroit MIGHT have benefited from a PI call but then again, Stafford MIGHT have thrown a pick 6 on the very next play. If Dallas gets that PI call for the bump in the back on Williams, they might have thrown a TD to Dez or Witten after than. If they get the running into the kicker call, they might have drove down and scored a TD.

Nobody knows what would have happened. Any change in the game MIGHT have benefited Detroit enough to win. But the game went how it went. It's over and no amount over arguing is going to change that.

I thought the calls were going in Detroit's favor early in the game.

 

[Sabertooth]

I don't think people turn a blind eye to it so much as people realize that every call did not go one team's way. Terrence Williams got pushed in the back on a bomb, no call. Dallas' punter go touched a lot harder than Detroit's did and there was no call. It all kind of shakes out in the end because there is so much ambiguity to it.

Sure Detroit MIGHT have benefited from a PI call but then again, Stafford MIGHT have thrown a pick 6 on the very next play. If Dallas gets that PI call for the bump in the back on Williams, they might have thrown a TD to Dez or Witten after than. If they get the running into the kicker call, they might have drove down and scored a TD.

Nobody knows what would have happened. Any change in the game MIGHT have benefited Detroit enough to win. But the game went how it went. It's over and no amount over arguing is going to change that.

What made it controversial is that the flag was thrown and the penalty was announced and then it was negated without explanation (and also that Dez Bryant ran onto the field with his helmet off to yell at the refs in the interim). It was a very unusual sequence of events. I'm not sure why people keep ignoring that in the discussion and talking about it as if it was a run of the mill blown call. As you say, blown calls happen all the time and they generally even out over time. This was not that. This was a correct call that was subsequently reversed and became a blown call quite a while after the actual play took place. It was very, very unusual.

Also, Detroit WOULD have benefited from the PI call (or a defensive holding call). There's no "might" about it. Yes, subsequent events might not have gone their way, but that doesn't make it a question. Would you say that a team "might" benefit from a pick-six because the other team could conceivably score five touchdowns in a row after that? No, of course not. If a play makes a team more likely to win, they benefit from the play. Detroit would have benefited significantly from the call standing. I think the reversal shifted their win expectancy something like 15% according to models.

So it's the stuff that happened after the whistle that's the problem, not what happened during the play?

If you think the NFL is rigged the only thing you can really do is change your expectations or quit watching. I don't think this was rigged. I'm going to enjoy watching Green Bay this weekend.

 

[Sabertooth]

I don't think people turn a blind eye to it so much as people realize that every call did not go one team's way. Terrence Williams got pushed in the back on a bomb, no call. Dallas' punter go touched a lot harder than Detroit's did and there was no call. It all kind of shakes out in the end because there is so much ambiguity to it.

Sure Detroit MIGHT have benefited from a PI call but then again, Stafford MIGHT have thrown a pick 6 on the very next play. If Dallas gets that PI call for the bump in the back on Williams, they might have thrown a TD to Dez or Witten after than. If they get the running into the kicker call, they might have drove down and scored a TD.

Nobody knows what would have happened. Any change in the game MIGHT have benefited Detroit enough to win. But the game went how it went. It's over and no amount over arguing is going to change that.

I thought the calls were going in Detroit's favor early in the game.

Me too and I posted as much in the thread. If this game was rigged, how did they miss the running into the kicker call?

 

[Sabertooth]

I don't think people turn a blind eye to it so much as people realize that every call did not go one team's way. Terrence Williams got pushed in the back on a bomb, no call. Dallas' punter go touched a lot harder than Detroit's did and there was no call. It all kind of shakes out in the end because there is so much ambiguity to it.

Sure Detroit MIGHT have benefited from a PI call but then again, Stafford MIGHT have thrown a pick 6 on the very next play. If Dallas gets that PI call for the bump in the back on Williams, they might have thrown a TD to Dez or Witten after than. If they get the running into the kicker call, they might have drove down and scored a TD.

Nobody knows what would have happened. Any change in the game MIGHT have benefited Detroit enough to win. But the game went how it went. It's over and no amount over arguing is going to change that.

What made it controversial is that the flag was thrown and the penalty was announced and then it was negated without explanation (and also that Dez Bryant ran onto the field with his helmet off to yell at the refs in the interim). It was a very unusual sequence of events. I'm not sure why people keep ignoring that in the discussion and talking about it as if it was a run of the mill blown call. As you say, blown calls happen all the time and they generally even out over time. This was not that. This was a correct call that was subsequently reversed and became a blown call quite a while after the actual play took place. It was very, very unusual.

Also, Detroit WOULD have benefited from the PI call (or a defensive holding call). There's no "might" about it. Yes, subsequent events might not have gone their way, but that doesn't make it a question. Would you say that a team "might" benefit from a pick-six because the other team could conceivably score five touchdowns in a row after that? No, of course not. If a play makes a team more likely to win, they benefit from the play. Detroit would have benefited significantly from the call standing. I think the reversal shifted their win expectancy something like 15% according to models.

Which models? This one?

 

[TobiasFunke]

I don't think people turn a blind eye to it so much as people realize that every call did not go one team's way. Terrence Williams got pushed in the back on a bomb, no call. Dallas' punter go touched a lot harder than Detroit's did and there was no call. It all kind of shakes out in the end because there is so much ambiguity to it.

Sure Detroit MIGHT have benefited from a PI call but then again, Stafford MIGHT have thrown a pick 6 on the very next play. If Dallas gets that PI call for the bump in the back on Williams, they might have thrown a TD to Dez or Witten after than. If they get the running into the kicker call, they might have drove down and scored a TD.

Nobody knows what would have happened. Any change in the game MIGHT have benefited Detroit enough to win. But the game went how it went. It's over and no amount over arguing is going to change that.

What made it controversial is that the flag was thrown and the penalty was announced and then it was negated without explanation (and also that Dez Bryant ran onto the field with his helmet off to yell at the refs in the interim). It was a very unusual sequence of events. I'm not sure why people keep ignoring that in the discussion and talking about it as if it was a run of the mill blown call. As you say, blown calls happen all the time and they generally even out over time. This was not that. This was a correct call that was subsequently reversed and became a blown call quite a while after the actual play took place. It was very, very unusual.

Also, Detroit WOULD have benefited from the PI call (or a defensive holding call). There's no "might" about it. Yes, subsequent events might not have gone their way, but that doesn't make it a question. Would you say that a team "might" benefit from a pick-six because the other team could conceivably score five touchdowns in a row after that? No, of course not. If a play makes a team more likely to win, they benefit from the play. Detroit would have benefited significantly from the call standing. I think the reversal shifted their win expectancy something like 15% according to models.

Which models? This one?

That model definitely shifted something.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Related

 

[Cyclones]

If Stafford doesn't hit the LB between the numbers in the middle of the back, Pettigrew probably either makes the catch or has a better case for PI. The LB has the right to occupy that space.

 

[pantagrapher]

If Stafford doesn't hit the LB between the numbers in the middle of the back, Pettigrew probably either makes the catch or has a better case for PI. The LB has the right to occupy that space.

He wasn't standing in place. He was running into the receiver, who was attemting to slow down, while making no attempt to play on the ball.

 

[culdeus]

If Stafford doesn't hit the LB between the numbers in the middle of the back, Pettigrew probably either makes the catch or has a better case for PI. The LB has the right to occupy that space.

He wasn't standing in place. He was running into the receiver, who was attemting to slow down, while making no attempt to play on the ball.

I always find this to be a dumb part of the PI rule. Why does the defender have to make a play on the ball to avoid PI in the situation where the ball is badly underthrown. Why can't he just stand his ground at that point? Isn't just standing in place on an underthrow "playing the ball" by definition? It puts the a.nus on the defender too much imo to judge the ball in the air versus just simply trying to guard the WR.

Am I really off here?

 

[pantagrapher]

If Stafford doesn't hit the LB between the numbers in the middle of the back, Pettigrew probably either makes the catch or has a better case for PI. The LB has the right to occupy that space.

He wasn't standing in place. He was running into the receiver, who was attemting to slow down, while making no attempt to play on the ball.

I always find this to be a dumb part of the PI rule. Why does the defender have to make a play on the ball to avoid PI in the situation where the ball is badly underthrown. Why can't he just stand his ground at that point? Isn't just standing in place on an underthrow "playing the ball" by definition? It puts the a.nus on the defender too much imo to judge the ball in the air versus just simply trying to guard the WR.

Am I really off here?

He can. That's not pass interference.

 

[parasaurolophus]

If Stafford doesn't hit the LB between the numbers in the middle of the back, Pettigrew probably either makes the catch or has a better case for PI. The LB has the right to occupy that space.

He wasn't standing in place. He was running into the receiver, who was attemting to slow down, while making no attempt to play on the ball.

I always find this to be a dumb part of the PI rule. Why does the defender have to make a play on the ball to avoid PI in the situation where the ball is badly underthrown. Why can't he just stand his ground at that point? Isn't just standing in place on an underthrow "playing the ball" by definition? It puts the a.nus on the defender too much imo to judge the ball in the air versus just simply trying to guard the WR.

Am I really off here?

he is allowed to just stand there. What usually happens though is the receiver stops and comes back and the guy plows him over.

I kind of agree with the main premise of your point though. I am not sure why playing the ball should matter. It should only be the manner of the contact that matters.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

as a football official......I hate seeing flags picked up.....our general line of thinking is if you are not sure, don't throw the flag......one officials opinon was that there was enough contact for PI.....thats why he threw the flag......that official is being paid to make judgement calls and in his judgement, there was enough contact.....it looks really bad to have another official basically come in and say "your judgement sucked".....this wasn't like a guy missing somebody step out of bounds or the ball hitting the ground or something.....in those cases, yeah I want my fellow crew members to come in and say hey the ball hit the ground or he stepped out or whatever.....but in this case, the guy pulled the trigger on what he saw as excessive contact.....and was talked out of it.....it wasn't like it was a matter of feet getting tangled up or something and another official had a better view....I really feel the "super crew" factor and the comfort level of the officials working together had something to do with this.....the official who came in and talked him out of it must have a little more "pull", and I'm not sure that would have happened on a crew that worked together all year.....

 

[Tom Servo]

It puts the a.nus on the defender too much imo to judge the ball in the air versus just simply trying to guard the WR.

Am I really off here?

When it comes to the word onus, then yes, you really are off here.

 

[Sabertooth]

If Stafford doesn't hit the LB between the numbers in the middle of the back, Pettigrew probably either makes the catch or has a better case for PI. The LB has the right to occupy that space.

He wasn't standing in place. He was running into the receiver, who was attemting to slow down who was grabbing his facemask, while making no attempt to play on the ball.

FYP

 

[Todd Andrews]

It puts the a.nus on the defender too much imo to judge the ball in the air versus just simply trying to guard the WR.

Am I really off here?

When it comes to the word onus, then yes, you really are off here.

Im pretty sure he meant that it puts the aynus on the defender too much, not the onus.

 

[timschochet]

Is there a tie in between this question and the Gronkowski erotica thread?

 

[culdeus]

It puts the a.nus on the defender too much imo to judge the ball in the air versus just simply trying to guard the WR.

Am I really off here?

When it comes to the word onus, then yes, you really are off here.

Uh, I don't think so.

 

[Tom Servo]

It puts the a.nus on the defender too much imo to judge the ball in the air versus just simply trying to guard the WR.

Am I really off here?

When it comes to the word onus, then yes, you really are off here.

Uh, I don't think so.

Check again.

 

[tdoss]

I would imagine there will be a class action lawsuit by Lions fans here... and I have to wonder if this might be the one time a fan base ended up winning some damages in this kind of a scenario. The call itself was awful, and coupled with many other ones (the Beasley one really annoyed me, its now the D-backs fault that Beasley is 5'8 and standard contact results in a blow to the head). But what is the procederual protocol that played out on this penalty? Not one of us has ever seen a play overturned in this fashion.

I'm also not one to call for jobs, but my goodness, I would fire this crew tomorrow... again, less so for the bad call but more for the aftermath and perception they have created... Its a play with that many potential ramifications...

if its not swept under the rug, which the broadcast partners and media puppets like King are sure to do. Kudos to Fox and Periera for being critical, and ESPN got on it, but this is slowly spinning out of the cycle already.

Its not the worst call I've ever seen, but without question, the worst process since... the 72 olympics? The end of Meldrick Taylor and Julio Cesar Chavez?

You mean the fight where Meldrick Taylor had his soul beaten out of him, was hospitalized for a facial fracture, urinating blood, was disorientated, suffered memory loss and never in his life fully recovered mentally or physically from the fight...yeah, Meldrick really deserved to win that one.

Yes the same one who had a fight stopped against a don king fighter with two seconds left.You think that was a great call, let me know where Richard Steele is these days

It doesn't matter how much time is left in the round, if a guy is using the ropes to balance himself and can't respond when the ref asks him if he is ok, the fight is over. Steele is in the boxing hall of fame.

In defense of Steele...80's is right. Ref isn't looking at time remaining...he's looking at the fighter's response and counting.It just sucks that there was only 2-3 seconds remaining...Chavez wouldn't have been able to land a blow by the time Steele could call fight back on...so it ends up being an awful stoppage for that reason alone...not that Steele made a bad judgment.

I'm not real familiar with the fight you are discussing....but in boxing there is a signal given to the boxers and the ref when there are 10 seconds left in the round.....so while I agree the ref isn't "looking" at the time remaining......he knows......he has a mental 10 second clock ticking in his head......you see them reacting to it in almost every fight in every round.....the ref is usually anticipating the bell and you can see him getting ready to separate fighters even when there is little to no action going on.....the ref knew the end of the round was imminent....

The signal is given 10 seconds remaining...usually loud banging on the table.But this particular knockout happened with like 15 seconds remaining...Steele sent Chavez to his corner and started counting. The place is erupting...I doubt he heard that table knock...I know I never heard it. His main focus is on that fighter and his count. I don't fault him. I want to...and ultimately Taylor was robbed because of it...but that's because we're all watching from our couch with no real responsibility to the fighter or the count. It's easy to armchair that situation.

For those unfamiliar:

http://youtu.be/AgenYK7VaxY

 

[tdoss]

Is face guarding not a penalty anymore? I see people question the contact and the ref even questioning his judgment of the "contact". For me...the most egregious and obvious penalty was face guarding.

The defender pretty much did a text book example of it...threw his hands up and just ran forward towards the receiver without ever turning back to make a play for the ball.

Now...occupying space is a debate...but this guy wasn't just running with the receiver and got hit in the back with the ball. He plainly and clearly face guards with his hands up...trying to block that reception without ever going for the ball itself.

Otherwise all defenders have to do is block your eyes with their hands to shut down receivers. Who cares route recognition or where the ball goes or even timing contact...just run to where the receiver's face is and put your hand in front of it.

 

[Stinkin Ref]

Is face guarding not a penalty anymore? I see people question the contact and the ref even questioning his judgment of the "contact". For me...the most egregious and obvious penalty was face guarding.

The defender pretty much did a text book example of it...threw his hands up and just ran forward towards the receiver without ever turning back to make a play for the ball.

Now...occupying space is a debate...but this guy wasn't just running with the receiver and got hit in the back with the ball. He plainly and clearly face guards with his hands up...trying to block that reception without ever going for the ball itself.

Otherwise all defenders have to do is block your eyes with their hands to shut down receivers. Who cares route recognition or where the ball goes or even timing contact...just run to where the receiver's face is and put your hand in front of it.

face guarding not a penalty in NFL....it is in college

 

[tdoss]

Is face guarding not a penalty anymore? I see people question the contact and the ref even questioning his judgment of the "contact". For me...the most egregious and obvious penalty was face guarding.

The defender pretty much did a text book example of it...threw his hands up and just ran forward towards the receiver without ever turning back to make a play for the ball.

Now...occupying space is a debate...but this guy wasn't just running with the receiver and got hit in the back with the ball. He plainly and clearly face guards with his hands up...trying to block that reception without ever going for the ball itself.

Otherwise all defenders have to do is block your eyes with their hands to shut down receivers. Who cares route recognition or where the ball goes or even timing contact...just run to where the receiver's face is and put your hand in front of it.

face guarding not a penalty in NFL....it is in college

Good lord...why on Earth did they get rid of that? The defender still has to attempt to make a play on the ball, right?Oh well...carry on with the contact discussion. Of which there definitely was excessive.