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Does Peyton Manning just out work many NFL QBs? (1 Viewer)

Da Guru

Fair & Balanced
I have noticed this for some time but watching the Denver-Philly game today it is really standing out. After every single possesion regardless of the score the second he comes off the field Manning is going through photo after photo of what the defense is doing..talking to all the receivers..talking to the coaches, never stopping until the next time he takes the field. I used to see him do this in Indy even during blowouts.

When they show Mike Vick after every possesion he is sitting by himself on the bench, not talking to the WRs, not going over the photos of the Denvers defense..just sitting there.

I have been to Lion games and have seen Stafford do the same thing as Vick a number of times.

Is this a "Coach" thing as to certain coaches that demand the QB to be involved all the time...or is it just Manning looking for the edge every possesion?

 

Da Guru

Fair & Balanced
I wonder what makes him so good. It is not a bullet arm. Just smarter?
I think so. There are many 6-4..6-5 QBs who were way more gifted than Manning as far as arm strength and mobility who failed. I was just wondering today watching the Eagles struggle so much on offense and to see Vick come off the field and just go sit by himself on the bench. Nobody was around him..no WRs talking to him..nobody was coaching him...no looking at photos..no nothing. No wonder they are failing.

Welker, Decker and Thomas were almost sitting on Manning lap.

 
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FreeBaGeL

Footballguy
I have noticed this for some time but watching the Denver-Philly game today it is really standing out. After every single possesion regardless of the score the second he comes off the field Manning is going through photo after photo of what the defense is doing..talking to all the receivers..talking to the coaches, never stopping until the next time he takes the field. I used to see him do this in Indy even during blowouts.
This to me is the huge difference between Peyton and Brady. Earlier this season Brady was having trouble getting on the same page with his WRs in such an obvious capacity that most of us hadn't seen anything like it at an NFL level before. Meanwhile, after walking off the field following a play where he threw a certain route while the WR ran a different one, he would never go talk to that WR.

We saw 3 straight games of Brady not being able to get on the same page as his WRs and we never even saw him talk to them. No wonder they couldn't get on the same page.

Peyton can succeed with a lame duck coach (like he's had several times in his career) because HE will work the wide receivers and HE will figure out what the defense is doing. Brady is a great QB, but he seems to go out there and let the coaches get the WRs on track and let the coaches figure out the defense and tell him what plays will beat it. If the coaches aren't doing that for him, then Brady struggles.

 

sports_fan

Footballguy
FreeBaGeL said:
Da Guru said:
I have noticed this for some time but watching the Denver-Philly game today it is really standing out. After every single possesion regardless of the score the second he comes off the field Manning is going through photo after photo of what the defense is doing..talking to all the receivers..talking to the coaches, never stopping until the next time he takes the field. I used to see him do this in Indy even during blowouts.
This to me is the huge difference between Peyton and Brady. Earlier this season Brady was having trouble getting on the same page with his WRs in such an obvious capacity that most of us hadn't seen anything like it at an NFL level before. Meanwhile, after walking off the field following a play where he threw a certain route while the WR ran a different one, he would never go talk to that WR.

We saw 3 straight games of Brady not being able to get on the same page as his WRs and we never even saw him talk to them. No wonder they couldn't get on the same page.

Peyton can succeed with a lame duck coach (like he's had several times in his career) because HE will work the wide receivers and HE will figure out what the defense is doing. Brady is a great QB, but he seems to go out there and let the coaches get the WRs on track and let the coaches figure out the defense and tell him what plays will beat it. If the coaches aren't doing that for him, then Brady struggles.
Brady lives and breathes football. He may not lead on gameday the way Manning does, but I find it hard to believe he's anything other than one of the hardest working players in the league. It has never been the Patriots way to do things out in the open. He's definitely putting the work in even if you don't see it on the sidelines.

 

Maggot Brain

Footballguy
Da Guru said:
LOCO said:
I wonder what makes him so good. It is not a bullet arm. Just smarter?
I think so. There are many 6-4..6-5 QBs who were way more gifted than Manning as far as arm strength and mobility who failed. I was just wondering today watching the Eagles struggle so much on offense and to see Vick come off the field and just go sit by himself on the bench. Nobody was around him..no WRs talking to him..nobody was coaching him...no looking at photos..no nothing. No wonder they are failing.

Welker, Decker and Thomas were almost sitting on Manning lap.
This. Exactly.

He works tirelessly. I honestly feel that deep down he's focused on breaking Brady's TD record AND finishing what NE couldn't do back in '07 by going 19-0. It would cap a great career and enhance an already great legacy. I have a feeling he believes those goals are achievable with this team, and last year's disappointment vs Baltimore is only more motivation.

 
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GreenNGold

Footballguy
He works his ### off, that's why he's the greatest quarterback of all-time.
This, and I have to admit, I had to laugh win OP compared Peyton to the likes of Vick and Stafford. Manning has committed 100% to football all the time, Vick chose to fight dogs, Stafford chooses to party instead of fully applying himself. There is a big difference.

 

ClownDogs

Footballguy
He might not be the most physically gifted qb, but with the talent he has, the time he puts in practice and game day and lets not totally forget the supporting cast(has always been there with him, that has to help also), he is above most, if not all, other qb's.

Reminds me a little of jerry rice, not the fastest, biggest, strongest but combine talent with worth ethic and you see what we got.

 

Air Stich

Footballguy
Probably has something to do with having an NFL quarterback as a father. He's been trained to be a QB from birth. That's one of the reasons his footwork is so amazing. You don't pick that up in college.

 

msudaisy26

Footballguy
The answer is no, he has had more receivers at his disposal then any quarterback in history in my opinion. Not to mention the rules favor the offense so much now. You can argument that the best receivers Farve, and Elway ever had would be the 4th best receiver Peyton ever had.

 

humpback

Footballguy
Ballstein said:
The brain always trumps superior athletic ability at QB
Highest reported QB Wonderlic scoresRyan Fitzpatrick, Bills, 48
Greg McElroy, Jets, 43
Blaine Gabbert, Jaguars, 42
Alex Smith, 49ers, 40
Eli Manning, Giants, 39

Lowest reported QB Wonderlic scores
Jeff George, 10
Donovan McNabb, 14
David Garrard, 14
Steve McNair, 15
Jim Kelly, 15


 

cstu

Footballguy
Ballstein said:
The brain always trumps superior athletic ability at QB
Highest reported QB Wonderlic scoresRyan Fitzpatrick, Bills, 48
Greg McElroy, Jets, 43
Blaine Gabbert, Jaguars, 42
Alex Smith, 49ers, 40
Eli Manning, Giants, 39

Lowest reported QB Wonderlic scores
Jeff George, 10
Donovan McNabb, 14
David Garrard, 14
Steve McNair, 15
Jim Kelly, 15
I'm not sure that makes the case you're trying to make. McNabb and McNair never lived up to their potential and Kelly is a bit over-rated IMO.

 

Riversco

Footballguy
thatguy said:
thatguy said:
ponchsox said:
Yes he does and he's smarter.
This pretty much sums it up. Edit to add that his work ethic is contagious, particularly when the team is having as much success as this Bronco's offense. Peyton makes every other player on the team, offense in particular, want to work that much harder, be that much smarter, etc.
So how come it didn't rub off on Curtis Painter?

 

humpback

Footballguy
Ballstein said:
The brain always trumps superior athletic ability at QB
Highest reported QB Wonderlic scoresRyan Fitzpatrick, Bills, 48
Greg McElroy, Jets, 43
Blaine Gabbert, Jaguars, 42
Alex Smith, 49ers, 40
Eli Manning, Giants, 39

Lowest reported QB Wonderlic scores
Jeff George, 10
Donovan McNabb, 14
David Garrard, 14
Steve McNair, 15
Jim Kelly, 15
I'm not sure that makes the case you're trying to make. McNabb and McNair never lived up to their potential and Kelly is a bit over-rated IMO.
Yeah, I guess Gabbert is way better than Kelly.

 

Not Sleeping

Footballguy
Ballstein said:
The brain always trumps superior athletic ability at QB
Highest reported QB Wonderlic scoresRyan Fitzpatrick, Bills, 48
Greg McElroy, Jets, 43
Blaine Gabbert, Jaguars, 42
Alex Smith, 49ers, 40
Eli Manning, Giants, 39

Lowest reported QB Wonderlic scores
Jeff George, 10
Donovan McNabb, 14
David Garrard, 14
Steve McNair, 15
Jim Kelly, 15
Dan Marino: 15

 

spider321

Footballguy
Outstanding talent and moderate effort can make you an NFL quarterback.

Outstanding effort and moderate talent can make you an NFL quarterback.

Outstanding effort and outstanding talent make you Peyton Manning.

 

msudaisy26

Footballguy
Outstanding talent and moderate effort can make you an NFL quarterback.

Outstanding effort and moderate talent can make you an NFL quarterback.

Outstanding effort and outstanding talent make you Peyton Manning.
Great post, I posted earlier that I don't think Manning out works all other quarterbacks. I think he works just as hard as the great ones and works harder then the average ones, but can we please stop acting like he made everyone around him. Did he make guys like Austin Collie, and Brandon Stokley. Yes he did because he is great, but the fact other teams are trying to stop Edge, Harrison and Wayne made it a little easier for those guys to get open, but Manning still found them and got the ball to them. He helped make Harrison and Wayne hall of fame guys, but those guys showed either before or after they would have been good with a lot of quarterbacks and even hall of fame worthy with another great quarterback.

 
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Run It Up

Footballguy
I think it comes down to intelligence, awareness, execution and game sense. The only one that has been able to compete with him at any respectable level has been Brady. Takes a lot of discipline and hard work to be as good as they both have been.

 

elmanx

Footballguy
Probably has something to do with having an NFL quarterback as a father. He's been trained to be a QB from birth. That's one of the reasons his footwork is so amazing. You don't pick that up in college.
I disagree with this. His footwork only got good once he was in the NFL. If you watch film of him at Tennessee, you can see that his footwork was not very good. He was always just kind of bouncing up and down. It was quite noticeable. He was good in college despite it.

 

pizzatyme

Footballguy
I do believe Manning outworks other QBs. Some of it is diminishing returns, but some of it pays off. He is given move control than any other QB has ever had with the offense. I feel he has led the way for other QBs to follow suit. Once that happened, others have excelled as well.

All in all, it is a great time to be a NFL fan and especially a P. Manning fan!

 

pizzatyme

Footballguy
Probably has something to do with having an NFL quarterback as a father. He's been trained to be a QB from birth. That's one of the reasons his footwork is so amazing. You don't pick that up in college.
I disagree with this. His footwork only got good once he was in the NFL. If you watch film of him at Tennessee, you can see that his footwork was not very good. He was always just kind of bouncing up and down. It was quite noticeable. He was good in college despite it.
I'd have to agree with this. The is no way Archie Manning employed footwork drills that NFL teams employ today. The game has changed too much.

Early on, Archie certainly gave his boys a leg up. Once they got to the NFL, well, professional coaches took over.

 

ODannyBoy

Footballguy
Manning is a very cerebral QB, particularly at this point in his career.

But let's not forget that he's playing with a stacked deck. I think he has the best combined WR and TE corp in the league and his o-line keeps his jersey clean most of the game. And his coach is amazingly letting him sling it around even though he's got a solid defense and play much more conservative if he wanted.

It's like a perfect storm for a cerebral QB. He gets to pick his throw, not force his throw. And he's smart enough to make the right decision.

It's the closest thing to those GSOT Rams teams I've ever seen. And I think they may be better.

 

FreeBaGeL

Footballguy
Manning is a very cerebral QB, particularly at this point in his career.

But let's not forget that he's playing with a stacked deck. I think he has the best combined WR and TE corp in the league and his o-line keeps his jersey clean most of the game. And his coach is amazingly letting him sling it around even though he's got a solid defense and play much more conservative if he wanted.

It's like a perfect storm for a cerebral QB. He gets to pick his throw, not force his throw. And he's smart enough to make the right decision.

It's the closest thing to those GSOT Rams teams I've ever seen. And I think they may be better.
It's kind of hard to judge this. No one thought that Thomas/Decker were an elite combo until they started catching passes from Peyton.

That's not to say that he's not playing with a lot of great talent (especially DT/Welker), but Peyton will never play with a non-elite group of receivers because he makes any receivers he plays with look elite.

 

Adam Harstad

Moderator
One thing that gets overlooked a lot is that Peyton Manning has basically run the same offense for his entire professional career. More than that, this offense is one of the simplest offenses you'll see in the NFL- perhaps the simplest in the game today. There's not a lot to it. There are very few formations, very few personnel groupings, and the vast majority of the snaps wind up being one of maybe 16 different plays. Manning has been running those same 16 plays every single game for a decade and a half. He's seen every possible way for an opposing team to defend them. At this point, Manning might be able to literally run the offense with his eyes closed.

 

Adam Harstad

Moderator
Manning is a very cerebral QB, particularly at this point in his career.

But let's not forget that he's playing with a stacked deck. I think he has the best combined WR and TE corp in the league and his o-line keeps his jersey clean most of the game. And his coach is amazingly letting him sling it around even though he's got a solid defense and play much more conservative if he wanted.

It's like a perfect storm for a cerebral QB. He gets to pick his throw, not force his throw. And he's smart enough to make the right decision.

It's the closest thing to those GSOT Rams teams I've ever seen. And I think they may be better.
A nit, but Peyton Manning is as much responsible for his clean jersey as the offensive line. Manning recognizes the defense, calls a lot of his own protections, audibles into plays to beat whatever pressure he sees coming, will reposition his RB in the backfield at will to deal with oncoming rushers, has amazing pocket presence, and runs the offense with the precision and timing of a Swiss watch. When he won his 3rd and 4th league MVP awards, his line was downright bad. His left tackle was Tony Ugoh. Peyton was still the least sacked QB in the league.

Remember, Denver has lost two centers and their All-Pro LT for the season already. Their starting center, Manny Ramirez, had to learn the position during preseason after not playing it since high school. Manning hasn't missed a beat.

 

msudaisy26

Footballguy
Manning is a very cerebral QB, particularly at this point in his career.

But let's not forget that he's playing with a stacked deck. I think he has the best combined WR and TE corp in the league and his o-line keeps his jersey clean most of the game. And his coach is amazingly letting him sling it around even though he's got a solid defense and play much more conservative if he wanted.

It's like a perfect storm for a cerebral QB. He gets to pick his throw, not force his throw. And he's smart enough to make the right decision.

It's the closest thing to those GSOT Rams teams I've ever seen. And I think they may be better.
It's kind of hard to judge this. No one thought that Thomas/Decker were an elite combo until they started catching passes from Peyton.

That's not to say that he's not playing with a lot of great talent (especially DT/Welker), but Peyton will never play with a non-elite group of receivers because he makes any receivers he plays with look elite.
It is hard to think of any combo of receivers as elite when the first year they rarely played because they were behind guys like Royal, Lloyd, and Marshall and their second year the Broncos had Tebow and ran the winged T.

Thomas and Decker were going to be good or great receivers in a normal offense with a decent quarterback. Even in their 2rd year both showed flashes of breaking out with Tebow at quarterback but when you quarterback is completing less then 50% of his passes it is hard to be consistent.

 

Beerguzzler

Footballguy
One thing that gets overlooked a lot is that Peyton Manning has basically run the same offense for his entire professional career. More than that, this offense is one of the simplest offenses you'll see in the NFL- perhaps the simplest in the game today. There's not a lot to it. There are very few formations, very few personnel groupings, and the vast majority of the snaps wind up being one of maybe 16 different plays. Manning has been running those same 16 plays every single game for a decade and a half. He's seen every possible way for an opposing team to defend them. At this point, Manning might be able to literally run the offense with his eyes closed.
Heh you clearly don't understand NFL offenses. It maybe the same formations, but Manning is changing a WR's route tree constantly depending on what he sees at the line of scrimmage. The reason he's successful is because he understands defenses and makes adjustments to take advantage of that. It's not a simple offense AT ALL. Most importantly, the receivers need to be on the same page. He just makes it seem simple.

 

Adam Harstad

Moderator
One thing that gets overlooked a lot is that Peyton Manning has basically run the same offense for his entire professional career. More than that, this offense is one of the simplest offenses you'll see in the NFL- perhaps the simplest in the game today. There's not a lot to it. There are very few formations, very few personnel groupings, and the vast majority of the snaps wind up being one of maybe 16 different plays. Manning has been running those same 16 plays every single game for a decade and a half. He's seen every possible way for an opposing team to defend them. At this point, Manning might be able to literally run the offense with his eyes closed.
Heh you clearly don't understand NFL offenses. It maybe the same formations, but Manning is changing a WR's route tree constantly depending on what he sees at the line of scrimmage. The reason he's successful is because he understands defenses and makes adjustments to take advantage of that. It's not a simple offense AT ALL. Most importantly, the receivers need to be on the same page. He just makes it seem simple.
The entire offense is based off of just a few route combinations and running plays. Everything else is variations on a theme. Because the concepts are so simple, Manning has a lot of leeway to drop them in and out of plays at will. He can easily switch a pair of receivers from one route concept to another without having to call a whole new "play", basically just inventing a new play on the spot to beat what he's seeing from the defense. Still, it's like a lego set- you can click the bricks together however you want, but at the end of the day, there are just a dozen or so brick shapes that you're using to build anything from a skyscraper to a space ship. In fact, if the offense were more complex, Peyton Manning would not be able to alter it so much at the line of scrimmage, because none of his teammates could memorize 500 different plays or concepts and have them all handy in the repertoire just waiting for Manning to audible into them. With only 16 basic concepts to worry about, it's easy for all 10 other guys on the field to keep up with Manning no matter what he's switching into.

In terms of number of plays in the playbook and number of formations or personnel groupings, there's not a more compact offense in the NFL. The fact that Manning can do so much with those simple pieces is a testament to his ability, but the offense ultimately relies far more on execution than scheme. It's all simple concepts that have been around forever because they're fundamentally sound when executed properly. The fact that the offense has endured more-or-less unchanged for a decade and a half- across all sorts of rule changes, and with every defensive coordinator trying his best to "figure it out" and "beat it"- really speaks to its simplicity.

For anyone interested in learning more about the offense, IAOFM had an amazing breakdown when Denver first signed Manning. Here's an excerpt from part one:

"Manning’s offense is the simplest in the NFL, which has the benefit of making it 100% callable from the line of scrimmage, and with every play available. For all the talk about audibling, most teams in the NFL primarily use a check-with-me system. That means that there will be a call made in the huddle, and also a coach-selected second call that should exploit a defense which is aligned well to defend the first call. By doing it this way, the QB can just yell out “ALERT! ALERT!” or something to that effect, and switch the play to the alternate call that everybody is expecting. Nothing is given away to the defense, because the check-off play will be something different every time the offense huddles...

The Manning offense (I call it that, because there’s nothing else like it) features about six running plays and 10 pass concepts. Each of those plays will have a number of different code words related to them, so that if I call out GLENGARRY once, and it’s an inside run, I don’t have to use GLENGARRY again for the same inside run later. I can have GLENGARRY, NEBRASKA, CHATTANOOGA, MARLINESPIKE, and AVALANCHE all mean the same inside running play...

Manning is the only QB in the NFL who is afforded the ability to call his own plays at the line of scrimmage whenever he feels he should."
 

ghostguy123

Footballguy
Sure that offense is simple.............just as long as you have a savant genius workaholic with 15 years of experience running it.

The foundation of it I can understand as being somewhat simplistic, though it is anything but simple to run. It may be simple for MANNING, but...............

 

msommer

Footballguy
He might not be the most physically gifted qb, but with the talent he has, the time he puts in practice and game day and lets not totally forget the supporting cast(has always been there with him, that has to help also), he is above most, if not all, other qb's.

Reminds me a little of jerry rice, not the fastest, biggest, strongest but combine talent with worth ethic and you see what we got.
:goodposting: Actually an excellent posting.

I find that attributing credit to work(ethic) only diminishes Peyton Mannings outstanding achievements.

As for the genetics and early years coaching involved, look at the difference between Peyton and Eli.

 

Bri

Footballguy
Some of you are totally missing all that goes into being a QB and instead saying better athletes are more talented. It's a talent in and of itself to be able to read a defense, to make all the right throws, to place the ball where only the WR can get it. RGII may easily be far faster than Manning, but the second his arm goes in motion-from that point Manning is light years more talented than RGIII.

Consider old Randall versus young Randall to better understand guys like Vick and RGIII.

 

Shirtless

Footballguy
I don't think it's just about work ethic. I think it's about how someone even approaches a particular activity.

I'm actually reminded of Ted Williams. What differed between him and other baseball players wasn't necessarily how hard he worked, but how he fundamentally thought about and analyzed the act of hitting. I mean the guy literally wrote a book on hitting in which he drew a strike zone composed of 77 baseballs and proceeded to describe how to hit each one of the balls. Compare that approach to, say, Manny Ramirez's. Manny was an extremely successful hitter (and would have been even without roids). His philosophy on hitting, quoted widely, was, "See the ball. Hit the ball."

I think Peyton Manning is in the Ted Williams category. He just approaches being a quarterback on an entirely different level than his peers, even his very successful peers. The others are more, "See my teammate. Throw the ball." And with all due respect to Brady, Rodgers, Brees, et al., none of them would write a book on quarterbacking. Peyton Manning definitely would/could.

 
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lod01

Footballguy
He's also the best OC in the game. They pay some other guy a salary and give him the title of OC but the real OC is Manning.

 

bro1ncos

IBL Representative
A lot of great points in this thread.

I don't think Manning works harder than all other QB's, works harder than most, but not all. I think the biggest difference between Manning and many other very good QB's is that Manning processes the information he gets during a play or pre-snap read faster than basically anyone that has ever played the game.

 

Ketamine Dreams

Footballguy
I swear I read somewhere that outside of football Manning isn't particularly bright. Not that he's dumb, but that he doesn't wow you away from the game, and he struggles with some tasks most of us find simple. I don't remember details, but think it was in pretty normal things eg: ordering things, banking stuff - things along those lines. I got the impression that he's sort of an idiot savant - genius at football, but fairly below average in most other things

 

pizzatyme

Footballguy
I swear I read somewhere that outside of football Manning isn't particularly bright. Not that he's dumb, but that he doesn't wow you away from the game, and he struggles with some tasks most of us find simple. I don't remember details, but think it was in pretty normal things eg: ordering things, banking stuff - things along those lines. I got the impression that he's sort of an idiot savant - genius at football, but fairly below average in most other things
You mean like marketing? He is already running a successful business outside of football. He was a great philanthropist here in Indy.

I do agree that he is programmed to be an NFL QB, but that doesn't make him stupid elsewhere.

 

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