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Does the U.S. have a moral obligation to help defend Ukraine? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter TripItUp
- Start date
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
I'm not following it. My kids are grown and i've given up on seeing the world have its head on right before i'm wormfood, so i stopped paying attention to anything where institutional heedlessness is a factor. Moral? If it's in our NATO treaties, yeah. Not otherwise. America will be an adolescent country and treated like suckers as long as it keeps grabbing checks.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
possibly the most poorly worded poll evah
non-NATO so no duty to defend
non-NATO so no duty to defend
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Insein
Footballguy
I don't even consider Russia an enemy. They have their own #### they deal with that doesn't really affect us day to day. The only time there's conflict is when it comes to the elites money. Then it's a squabble over who gets what.
None of this affects us regular people. So if we have to send any troops over there to die for another meaningless conflict that doesn't protect the US in anyway, heads need to roll.
None of this affects us regular people. So if we have to send any troops over there to die for another meaningless conflict that doesn't protect the US in anyway, heads need to roll.
The Commish
Footballguy
Moral obligation? No...
Cultural obligation? Absolutely.....
THE problem that's been at the heart of this conflict is the battle over whether democracy works or not. Russia has a vested interest in showing that it doesn't. That is at the core of everything we see from them. If one believes it's anything else (like money or geography etc) you haven't dug deep enough to understand the forces and motivations at work.
Cultural obligation? Absolutely.....
THE problem that's been at the heart of this conflict is the battle over whether democracy works or not. Russia has a vested interest in showing that it doesn't. That is at the core of everything we see from them. If one believes it's anything else (like money or geography etc) you haven't dug deep enough to understand the forces and motivations at work.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Yeah. Poll is fla\/\/ed.
I would say that the United States has a moral imperative to defend democracies against repressive authoritarian states. However, we can barely defend democracy domestically which seems a much bigger problem.
I have issues with any country that tries to invade another country ( that we consider our friends)and install their puppet regime.
Gopher State
Footballguy
If we don’t help them we will suffer even higher inflation due to higher oil, natural gas and food prices. Russia is a big supplier of energy and the number one producer of wheat. We will have to help feed and provide energy to Europe. So no u,s. Soldiers, but no issue giving them arms to fight back against Russia.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Unless the US is the one installing a puppet regime. A good one that we can trust. Then it’s all cool. Hi Pinochet!
TripItUp
Footballguy
TripItUp
Footballguy
TripItUp
Footballguy
there are two questions, 1) morality and 2) "America's interests".
The morality question is more interesting to me.
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Desert_Power
Footballguy
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I’m the lone undecided and it’s because I need more information before I could decide. I think it’s way too complicated to give a yes/no at the moment.
timschochet
Footballguy
The growing isolationist sentiment in this country, particularly among conservatives, is very depressing to me.
SeniorVBDStudent
Footballguy
It's interesting that the OP's question was on the basis of morality, versus say what's best for the nation and the world from a geopolitical stability perspective.
The Commish
Footballguy
Honestly, not sure why this is interesting unless you mean in a "wonder why they care about this morality thing all of a sudden" kind of way, and even then it's rather obvious, no?
Godsbrother
Footballguy
lazyike said:
I am curious as to where you stand with the USA's actions in regards to Iraq and Afghanistan.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
The US won’t even defend its own borders. Why would we try to defend The borders of Ukraine.
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
I don’t think we have a moral obligation to right every moral wrong around the world.
timschochet
Footballguy
We have an obligation to try. And not just a moral one but a legal one as well.
The United States signed both the Charter of the United Nations and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as well as the Atlantic Charter. Indeed, we participated heavily in the writing of all three documents, which serve as foundation for international law. In addition, at the War Crimes Trials in Nuremberg and Tokyo following the Second World War, the USA set down the principles that is supposed to guide moral behavior in international affairs.
We are never morally obligated to go to war or use force to right any act of international immorality. But we ARE obligated to speak out, to take a stand, to help as much as we can.
moleculo
Footballguy
I guess it depends on what "help defend" means. Speak out, take a stand, sure. Send our troops - no way...at least, not under our flag.
This feels like something best left to the UN. Is that still a thing?
Juxtatarot
Footballguy
Alonzo Mosely
Footballguy
I mean they can just to point to the US if that was what they wanted to do.The Commish said:
Alonzo Mosely
Footballguy
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Why? We’ve screwed up dozens of other nations with our manipulation under the guise of fighting communism or “nation building.”
Immigration is a great thing. Truly great.
Nation building? Not so much.
beer 30
Footballguy
Listened to this podcast over the weekend and it kinda swayed me to a no vote here. Logistically it's another nightmare, especially if some of our NATO partners bail and Cooper brings up an interesting option during the podcast to give everyone a way out. I don't think it happens and I think Russia invades but it's an interesting alternative. In short, give Russia the portion of Ukraine that is filled with Russians who want to be Russians and have Russia pay Ukraine billions for it for a few years.
Never happen but you don't know if you don't ask. Regardless, good podcast on the history of Ukraine and how we are where we are.
Never happen but you don't know if you don't ask. Regardless, good podcast on the history of Ukraine and how we are where we are.
TLEF316
Footballguy
Moral? No way (IMO).
"In our interests" is a whole other question, but as a tax paying American (and one who cares about our troops, like I'm sure everyone else here does)....it pisses me off that pretty much every other country is willing to just take a backseat and let us handle it.
Plenty of other countries that could send in troops and dissuade a Russian attack. But most of them wont because they know America will foot the bill.
"In our interests" is a whole other question, but as a tax paying American (and one who cares about our troops, like I'm sure everyone else here does)....it pisses me off that pretty much every other country is willing to just take a backseat and let us handle it.
Plenty of other countries that could send in troops and dissuade a Russian attack. But most of them wont because they know America will foot the bill.
Jayrod
Footballguy
I feel like moral isn't the right word, so I voted no.
I believe we have an obligation, but it isn't morally so. I feel morally obligated to defend the defenseless against abuse and suffering, but I don't think that is the case here. There are political and financial issues at stake if Russia invades, but none of them rise to the level of a question of morality.
I believe we have an obligation, but it isn't morally so. I feel morally obligated to defend the defenseless against abuse and suffering, but I don't think that is the case here. There are political and financial issues at stake if Russia invades, but none of them rise to the level of a question of morality.
beer 30
Footballguy
Not arguing with you, just asking the question, how much of that is due to us (US) inserting ourselves into so many conflicts since, say Vietnam, when we didn't need to? I think we do have a bit of a reputation out in the international community. We've also had our fingers in the innerworkings of Ukraine for a bit so maybe other countries are looking at this and thinking, it's your baby, you handle it.
Don't know, just spitballing
TLEF316
Footballguy
Not arguing with you, just asking the question, how much of that is due to us (US) inserting ourselves into so many conflicts since, say Vietnam, when we didn't need to? I think we do have a bit of a reputation out in the international community. We've also had our fingers in the innerworkings of Ukraine for a bit so maybe other countries are looking at this and thinking, it's your baby, you handle it.
Don't know, just spitballing
100% agree that in some respects...we brought this on ourselves. And maybe Ukraine is a unique situation. But I have a hunch that this scenario will continue to play out in plenty places where we DONT have previous involvement....until we say no more.
timschochet
Footballguy
That depends on the nation and the effort put into the building.
On my list of greatest political figures I just named Douglas MacArthur. He is responsible for the creation of modern Japan and South Korea. Those two states, who are our allies and have served us well in trade and friendship, would not exist if America hadn’t created them.
I actually was thinking more in terms of joining other nations in sanctions, negotiations, military aid and support. I don't feel we enter Ukraine and defend militarily.
timschochet
Footballguy
When an international crime occurs, we absolutely have a moral and legal obligation to do these things, though the levels of sanctions and military aid are more fluid and depending on our national interests.
2Squirrels1Nut
Footballguy
Should the US, the world, sit back and watch innocent men, women and children that live in a free society and in the case of the US, an ally country, be slaughtered? If it were me, and my family, would I want help or left to be murdered?
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beer 30
Footballguy
I feel like this is an opportunity but I'm also about 100% sure we won't. And not to the extent we say "good luck, you're on your own" more along the lines of we work with our allies in the area and make a go of it and for once, not being the lead. Let Poland or France lead, it's their backyard. Won't happen but I'd like to see Mr. Diplomat do some trick diplomat #### rather than send our troops into a shooting war with Russia.
I'm trying to think of really any countries outside of those two who would be considered a success? Germany maybe? Good dig, if you had asked me I wouldn't' have even come up with those.
Hyperbole much?
timschochet
Footballguy
It’s not an easy task for sure. BUT- in the recent cases of Iraq and Afghanistan we had the obligation to try. If we weren’t willing to try we shouldn’t have invaded those nations. Once you invade you have obligations.
beer 30
Footballguy
Yea agree but those two examples are whole other discussions.
So saying that, you think we have an obligation in Ukraine? If so, how much and what kind of obligation? Obviously different situation then above.
Feel like a social studies teacher saying there is only one question on the test...with seven parts.
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timschochet
Footballguy
I think we have an obligation to do what Biden is doing: warn Putin against invasion, sanction Russia if he does.
But Ukraine is not the issue that concerns me. Taiwan is. We have told Taiwan in the past that if China invades we will go to war. Will we? Should we? That’s a far more difficult question than Ukraine.
2Squirrels1Nut
Footballguy
beer 30
Footballguy
Agree. So here's a question, China & Russia have been awful chummy lately. Even before I listened to the podcast I linked upthread I thought there was a better than average chance that if/when Russia invades Ukraine, China launches against Taiwan. What do we do? And how do we keep the world from becoming a charcoal briquette in the process?
timschochet
Footballguy
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