Dolphin Players bullied Jonathan Martin, Richie Incognito SUSPENDED (1 Viewer)

[Kalamazoo]

Speaking of which, why is nobody (not just here) talking about the trainer? There's almost certainly more to the story (as there always it), but he might be the most "pure" victim here. Should he be bound by the same locker room/team rules as the players? In other words, should he expected to have the same thick skin as they are expected to have and ability to fight back? He probably isn't physically in a position to get in the face of or engage in "fisticuffs" with a 300 lb lineman. He may be afraid of losing his job if he pisses off certain players. There is potentially a pretty big power difference there.

If what is in the that report is true, there was some serious racially-based harassment going on there, and it would be hard to believe that it wasn't at least in part unwelcome. I think our society has done way overboard with litigation, but this guy might have very legitimate grounds for such a suit, particularly since his supervisor witnessed some of it, and I wouldn't necessarily blame him if he tried to do something. The Dolphins really need to clean up their act when it comes to regular employees, and the threat of litigation might be the only thing that makes it happen.e

I don't think Martin having his case excludes the Trainer for bringing up his own charges against the Dolphins organization, Richie or Martin. Don't know how solid of a case he would have.

Yeah, sorry -- I didn't mean to imply that they are linked at all. At this point, I don't it would be reasonable for Martin to sue as long as his contract is honored on both sides (i.e., he shows up to work and whoever holds his contract pays him within its terms). And if he isn't back-balled, which could be very hard to prove, but if he were, in my opinion, it could give him moral standing to take further action.

Based on the limited facts we have (and my even more limited knowledge of the law) I think the situation could be quite different for the trainer, and it might actually be reasonable for him to sue. If nothing else, the organization probably owes him a big apology.

 

[KCitons]

I'm quite serious. The nature of my job generally has me working for 4-10 employers per year in film and every job for the past 5 years or so I get a packet of procedures on sexual harrasment and a packet on workplace safety which are part of a deal memo I have to sign off on. There has never been a sentence or paragraph on work place harassment so the notion that it's illegal is news to me.

Do you have any idea of regulation specific to the state of Florida or the nflpa?

Does your boss ever yell at you at work? Have they? Couldn't that fit in your definition?

That's a reasonable question. I guess where that line is drawn is highly variable. I am babbling based on no knowledge whatsoever here, but I'd guess that the possible grounds for harassment may vary from state to state. For example, in all states it's probably illegal to make racially unwelcome disparaging remarks about an employee, whereas in only some are remarks based on one's sexual orientation illegal. But I have no idea and shouldn't even be writing this. I still think it's a good question.

I think maybe our recent confusion stems from the very clear zero tolerance in academia. Like I said, I had not heard those extensions extend to the workplace. There are obvious protections for physical assault or the like but that is clearly stated in the law

There is a grey area with harassment, which people don't understand. It is all about what the victim finds offensive. Some black guys may not be offended by the N-word, some might. It is a grey area that allows for potential abuse, but also protects the victim from the argument, "but nobody else in the office found that offensive!".

This is why people are having difficulty with this whole situation. The common sense approach is to avoid calling anyone the N word, or making any sexual comments to a co-worker. For some reason, athletes and the locker room has been exempt from this. Because, wearing Japanese head bands and picking on an assistant trainer, makes for better football players.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Seriously? Have you never worked before? The law defines it and it varies from state to state. Generally, unwelcome behavior that hinders your ability to do your job.

I'm quite serious. The nature of my job generally has me working for 4-10 employers per year in film and every job for the past 5 years or so I get a packet of procedures on sexual harrasment and a packet on workplace safety which are part of a deal memo I have to sign off on. There has never been a sentence or paragraph on work place harassment so the notion that it's illegal is news to me.

Do you have any idea of regulation specific to the state of Florida or the nflpa?

Does your boss ever yell at you at work? Have they? Couldn't that fit in your definition?

Wow.... ok. You should really inform yourself about this.

1. You aren't allowed to racially harass an employee I can tell you that much, which we can all agree that Richie did. Just because you don't report it, it doesn't make it ok if as a supervisor you saw it and did nothing. That is why Turner is insisting he didn't remember buying the blow-up doll. So the fact that the organization didn't do anything about Richie doing that reflects poorly on them. Not sure how illegal that is.

2. I dont live in florida so no idea.

3. Your boss can yell at you about work related things, but he can't touch you physically. He can't call you the n-word or anything that you would consider offensive. If he does you could technically sue him. Doesn't mean it will be an easy case, but you could.

. I'm asking to be informed but there is at best insufficient support for the witch hunt going on here now.

1. Calling someone an N is deplorable and not a choice I would make. But it's not illegal. It's a firable offense but not illegal. Now pursuant to this, and the dirty little secret of the n word is if it's such a deplorable a horrible word and sentiment why is it so freely used by black people? I underStand the concept of ownership and the alternate gravity when used by white people. But there is also a communith standard. In thay locker room apparently the word was used freely by many blacks and at least incognito. Martin joined this environment and if he objects to the group standard, should the group read his kind if he takes issue with this or does he have any responsibility to speak to the perpetrators, the coach or human resources about his objection?

That's my basic issue with this whole thing. Incognito is an oaf and an idiot and probably tone deaf. But on the flip, how is he supposed to know Martin has an issue if he won't address it, he texts with him constantly and if he socializes with him? Am I blaming the victim by highlighting his seemingly irrational behavior?

3. You can sue anyone but at some point you need some evidence. What I see here is, no one but Martin and his family knew he had an issue. Once if came to light it was handled in a swift and serous manner.

 

[Smack Tripper]

I think maybe our recent confusion stems from the very clear zero tolerance in academia. Like I said, I had not heard those extensions extend to the workplace. There are obvious protections for physical assault or the like but that is clearly stated in the law

Here's how the Dolphins apparently decided to define it internally (see pp. 5-6 of the report):

In 2013, the Dolphins distributed a workplace conduct policy to all players, and Incognito, Jerry and Pouncey each signed an acknowledgement form stating

that he understood the policy and agreed to be bound by it. The policy defines harassment to include unwelcome contact; jokes, comments and antics; generalizations and put-downs. Guided by this policy, it was not difficult to conclude that the Assistant Trainer and Player A were harassed, but the questions raised in Martins case were more complex, nuanced and difficult.

I have no idea what recourse an employee would have if he or she were subject to conduct that would be considered harassment under this policy, but is not illegal in Florida, say. Also I don't know how the recourse would differ for a player bound by the CBA and a regular employee.

Thank you now this is helpful and what I was looking for

 

[rdrouyn]

Seriously? Have you never worked before? The law defines it and it varies from state to state. Generally, unwelcome behavior that hinders your ability to do your job.

I'm quite serious. The nature of my job generally has me working for 4-10 employers per year in film and every job for the past 5 years or so I get a packet of procedures on sexual harrasment and a packet on workplace safety which are part of a deal memo I have to sign off on. There has never been a sentence or paragraph on work place harassment so the notion that it's illegal is news to me.

Do you have any idea of regulation specific to the state of Florida or the nflpa?

Does your boss ever yell at you at work? Have they? Couldn't that fit in your definition?

Wow.... ok. You should really inform yourself about this.

1. You aren't allowed to racially harass an employee I can tell you that much, which we can all agree that Richie did. Just because you don't report it, it doesn't make it ok if as a supervisor you saw it and did nothing. That is why Turner is insisting he didn't remember buying the blow-up doll. So the fact that the organization didn't do anything about Richie doing that reflects poorly on them. Not sure how illegal that is.

2. I dont live in florida so no idea.

3. Your boss can yell at you about work related things, but he can't touch you physically. He can't call you the n-word or anything that you would consider offensive. If he does you could technically sue him. Doesn't mean it will be an easy case, but you could.

.I'm asking to be informed but there is at best insufficient support for the witch hunt going on here now.

1. Calling someone an N is deplorable and not a choice I would make. But it's not illegal. It's a firable offense but not illegal. Now pursuant to this, and the dirty little secret of the n word is if it's such a deplorable a horrible word and sentiment why is it so freely used by black people? I underStand the concept of ownership and the alternate gravity when used by white people. But there is also a communith standard. In thay locker room apparently the word was used freely by many blacks and at least incognito. Martin joined this environment and if he objects to the group standard, should the group read his kind if he takes issue with this or does he have any responsibility to speak to the perpetrators, the coach or human resources about his objection?

That's my basic issue with this whole thing. Incognito is an oaf and an idiot and probably tone deaf. But on the flip, how is he supposed to know Martin has an issue if he won't address it, he texts with him constantly and if he socializes with him? Am I blaming the victim by highlighting his seemingly irrational behavior?

3. You can sue anyone but at some point you need some evidence. What I see here is, no one but Martin and his family knew he had an issue. Once if came to light it was handled in a swift and serous manner.

http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/race_color.cfm

"It is unlawful to harass a person because of that person’s race or color.

Harassment can include, for example, racial slurs, offensive or derogatory remarks about a person's race or color, or the display of racially-offensive symbols. Although the law doesn’t prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted).

The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or someone who is not an employee of the employer, such as a client or customer."

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

IIRC Federal Law has a say about all of this -- regardless of what the state may or may not say. Not 100% on that though.

Also IIRC the employer's obligation is to address any workplace harassment that occurs. Simply having an incident creates no liability -- I believe it typically takes an ongoing pattern of abuse or an employer ignoring a complaint to reach the level of a lawsuit.

Again, all IIRC.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Seriously? Have you never worked before? The law defines it and it varies from state to state. Generally, unwelcome behavior that hinders your ability to do your job.

I'm quite serious. The nature of my job generally has me working for 4-10 employers per year in film and every job for the past 5 years or so I get a packet of procedures on sexual harrasment and a packet on workplace safety which are part of a deal memo I have to sign off on. There has never been a sentence or paragraph on work place harassment so the notion that it's illegal is news to me.Do you have any idea of regulation specific to the state of Florida or the nflpa?

Does your boss ever yell at you at work? Have they? Couldn't that fit in your definition?

Wow.... ok. You should really inform yourself about this.

1. You aren't allowed to racially harass an employee I can tell you that much, which we can all agree that Richie did. Just because you don't report it, it doesn't make it ok if as a supervisor you saw it and did nothing. That is why Turner is insisting he didn't remember buying the blow-up doll. So the fact that the organization didn't do anything about Richie doing that reflects poorly on them. Not sure how illegal that is.

2. I dont live in florida so no idea.

3. Your boss can yell at you about work related things, but he can't touch you physically. He can't call you the n-word or anything that you would consider offensive. If he does you could technically sue him. Doesn't mean it will be an easy case, but you could.

.I'm asking to be informed but there is at best insufficient support for the witch hunt going on here now.

1. Calling someone an N is deplorable and not a choice I would make. But it's not illegal. It's a firable offense but not illegal. Now pursuant to this, and the dirty little secret of the n word is if it's such a deplorable a horrible word and sentiment why is it so freely used by black people? I underStand the concept of ownership and the alternate gravity when used by white people. But there is also a communith standard. In thay locker room apparently the word was used freely by many blacks and at least incognito. Martin joined this environment and if he objects to the group standard, should the group read his kind if he takes issue with this or does he have any responsibility to speak to the perpetrators, the coach or human resources about his objection?

That's my basic issue with this whole thing. Incognito is an oaf and an idiot and probably tone deaf. But on the flip, how is he supposed to know Martin has an issue if he won't address it, he texts with him constantly and if he socializes with him? Am I blaming the victim by highlighting his seemingly irrational behavior?

3. You can sue anyone but at some point you need some evidence. What I see here is, no one but Martin and his family knew he had an issue. Once if came to light it was handled in a swift and serous manner.

http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/race_color.cfm

"It is unlawful to harass a person because of that persons race or color.

Harassment can include, for example, racial slurs, offensive or derogatory remarks about a person's race or color, or the display of racially-offensive symbols. Although the law doesnt prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted).

The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or someone who is not an employee of the employer, such as a client or customer."

This is good stuff. Thank you. Unfortunately it doesn't get us much closer to clarity because what is "simple teasing". And what is the penalty for these offenses? But it is good to know a standard exists.

I wonder how harrasment by other teams fits in this. I can only imagine what Riley cooper or welker hear by this standard

 

[fatness]

Here are some of the take-away messages I have about this:

* Martin definitely shares some of the blame for this situation. I understand that he felt trapped and in a bind and his depression was making everything worse. He was a victim, but he helped enable his own victimhood. I don't believe any of that in particular reflects badly on him as a person as some here do. I do, however, believe that his participation in the "banter", particularly the hurtful, nasty stuff, does reflect poorly on him and I hope he realizes that.

* I don't believe that Richie and Co. were necessarily being malicious and for now I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and won't conclude without further evidence that it makes them bad people. I do think that their treatment of the trainer and Richie's others antics (golf course, U of Nebraska incidents, etc.) do not reflect well on them as people.

So basically you see them the same.

 

[fatness]

Why are some people who so frequently said Incognito was not bullying (or that his bullying was OK and normal) so quick to want to brand Martin a bully?

Looks like grasping at straws to me.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Why are some people who so frequently said Incognito was not bullying (or that his bullying was OK and normal) so quick to want to brand Martin a bully?

Looks like grasping at straws to me.

Because that seems to be a finding of the report on Friday? What is your opinion of that portion of the report?

 

[fatness]

That it was a guy being bullied trying to fit in with the bullies to lessen the bullying.

And that concentrating on that detail is diverting from the overall report and trying to grasp at a straw.

What is your opinion of the entire report?

 

[Smack Tripper]

That it was a guy being bullied trying to fit in with the bullies to lessen the bullying.

And that concentrating on that detail is diverting from the overall report and trying to grasp at a straw.

What is your opinion of the entire report?

Well I wrote above, guys like pouncey and incognito are douchey scumbags who probably have some buried gay tendencies given their conduct. They also produced too little to act like this. Incognito took his mediocre and if he's black balled from the league I could careless. Pouncey is on his way behind him.

The larger onus falls on dolphin management. Seems like they do no due diligence on their players because really in their own way, you wouldn't want any of the bullies or Martin on your team. They just seem to be an inept and awful organization at every step of the way.

But again, I can't get away from the fact that Martin is a sensitive and is sidestepping any responsibility in this manner. Whatever the motivation, he was an active participant in bullying. Also maybe you can explain to me how if he didn't alert anyone to his inner turmoil about this, neither peer, team management or his union, how is anyone supposed to know about his issues?

 

[rdrouyn]

No idea, but the information is available. Took me about 3 seconds to google that article.

As far as Riley Cooper being called WhiteTrash or whatever, yes he is protected, if there is a pattern of harrasment from someone he deals with on a regular basis, then yes he would be protected. Fans do get kicked out of stadiums for being obnoxious and beligerent (at least in the stadiums ive been in) so that could be argued that it is accomodating the player. There are no hard and fast rules about this, just what can be argued to the jury.

Seriously? Have you never worked before? The law defines it and it varies from state to state. Generally, unwelcome behavior that hinders your ability to do your job.

I'm quite serious. The nature of my job generally has me working for 4-10 employers per year in film and every job for the past 5 years or so I get a packet of procedures on sexual harrasment and a packet on workplace safety which are part of a deal memo I have to sign off on. There has never been a sentence or paragraph on work place harassment so the notion that it's illegal is news to me.Do you have any idea of regulation specific to the state of Florida or the nflpa?

Does your boss ever yell at you at work? Have they? Couldn't that fit in your definition?

Wow.... ok. You should really inform yourself about this.

1. You aren't allowed to racially harass an employee I can tell you that much, which we can all agree that Richie did. Just because you don't report it, it doesn't make it ok if as a supervisor you saw it and did nothing. That is why Turner is insisting he didn't remember buying the blow-up doll. So the fact that the organization didn't do anything about Richie doing that reflects poorly on them. Not sure how illegal that is.

2. I dont live in florida so no idea.

3. Your boss can yell at you about work related things, but he can't touch you physically. He can't call you the n-word or anything that you would consider offensive. If he does you could technically sue him. Doesn't mean it will be an easy case, but you could.

.I'm asking to be informed but there is at best insufficient support for the witch hunt going on here now.

1. Calling someone an N is deplorable and not a choice I would make. But it's not illegal. It's a firable offense but not illegal. Now pursuant to this, and the dirty little secret of the n word is if it's such a deplorable a horrible word and sentiment why is it so freely used by black people? I underStand the concept of ownership and the alternate gravity when used by white people. But there is also a communith standard. In thay locker room apparently the word was used freely by many blacks and at least incognito. Martin joined this environment and if he objects to the group standard, should the group read his kind if he takes issue with this or does he have any responsibility to speak to the perpetrators, the coach or human resources about his objection?

That's my basic issue with this whole thing. Incognito is an oaf and an idiot and probably tone deaf. But on the flip, how is he supposed to know Martin has an issue if he won't address it, he texts with him constantly and if he socializes with him? Am I blaming the victim by highlighting his seemingly irrational behavior?

3. You can sue anyone but at some point you need some evidence. What I see here is, no one but Martin and his family knew he had an issue. Once if came to light it was handled in a swift and serous manner.

http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/race_color.cfm

"It is unlawful to harass a person because of that persons race or color.

Harassment can include, for example, racial slurs, offensive or derogatory remarks about a person's race or color, or the display of racially-offensive symbols. Although the law doesnt prohibit simple teasing, offhand comments, or isolated incidents that are not very serious, harassment is illegal when it is so frequent or severe that it creates a hostile or offensive work environment or when it results in an adverse employment decision (such as the victim being fired or demoted).

The harasser can be the victim's supervisor, a supervisor in another area, a co-worker, or someone who is not an employee of the employer, such as a client or customer."

This is good stuff. Thank you. Unfortunately it doesn't get us much closer to clarity because what is "simple teasing". And what is the penalty for these offenses? But it is good to know a standard exists. I wonder how harrasment by other teams fits in this. I can only imagine what Riley cooper or welker hear by this standard

 

[rdrouyn]

I might be going on a limb here, but getting called racial names at your workplace for a span of two years can be argued by a half decent lawyer to be a pattern of harrasment.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Why are some people who so frequently said Incognito was not bullying (or that his bullying was OK and normal) so quick to want to brand Martin a bully?

Looks like grasping at straws to me.

Its the double standard and the hypocrisy that is being questioned. I don't actually think there was bullying by my standards. By Jon's standards there was. By Andrew McDonald's standards, there was not. Different standards...not right or wrong.

Better question - Why are some people who so frequently said that Martin was bullied so quick to alleviate him from any guilt for his own bullying and harassment?

 

[Smack Tripper]

I might be going on a limb here, but getting called racial names at your workplace for a span of two years can be argued by a half decent lawyer to be a pattern of harrasment.

I don't doubt that and I'm not defending that choice by incognito. It's a line not to be crossed. But Martin in a case would face cross and he'd have to answer:

- did you ever address this matter with incognito?

-did you address it with HR/management?

-did you address it with black players who used it?

-did you take issue with black players who used it?

And I would his answers.

And as an extension, could a white player make a case for having to hear the word used by black players?

 

[ChuckLiddell]

I might be going on a limb here, but getting called racial names at your workplace for a span of two years can be argued by a half decent lawyer to be a pattern of harrasment.

I don't doubt that and I'm not defending that choice by incognito. It's a line not to be crossed.But Martin in a case would face cross and he'd have to answer:

- did you ever address this matter with incognito?

-did you address it with HR/management?

-did you address it with black players who used it?

-did you take issue with black players who used it?

And I would his answers.

And as an extension, could a white player make a case for having to hear the word used by black players?

Interesting point. The word is offensive by nature, regardless of what color you are. Many on this board are genuinely effected by the notion that it is ever used...even in a locker room by people who seemingly accept it. Who is to say that a white person would not find the term offensive? Would that constitute harassment as well?

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Definitions for the N word in the dictionary. Check out number 2 and 3. The term is not only meant in a disparaging way toward African Americans. At least not by definition. So why are African Americans given a pass to use it, but others are not?

OK, Geniuses...I know you will have a field day with all of this, and I will be branded American History X, or something similar. Just going to get in front of that...I didn't write the dictionary. I just quoted it.

noun

1. Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive. a. a black person.
b. a member of any dark-skinned people.
2. Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive. a person of any race or origin regarded as contemptible, inferior, ignorant, etc.
3. a victim of prejudice similar to that suffered by blacks; a person who is economically, politically, or socially disenfranchised.

 

[fatness]

Chuck lecturing on the use of the N word.

 

[fatness]

Looks like maybe it's sinking in that Incognito was sabotaging his own prospects of finding good paying work in the NFL.

It appeared for a while on Friday night that Dolphins guard Richie Incognito had pulled the plug on his Twitter account. He hadn’t.

At some point since Friday night, he did. Yes, the account otherwise known as @68INCOGNITO is no more. While it may have been a rash reaction to the abuse he was taking on Twitter after the Wells report was released — a blow back that surely was enhanced by his prior boasts and proclamations that he’d be exonerated — the move may have resulted from the advice of Incognito’s agents and lawyers. Even if Incognito had managed to make it through 23 hours and 59 minutes of a given day without saying something that could work against his effort to avoid further punishment from the NFL or find a new team as of March 11, in that one remaining minute his alter ego known as The Tornado could have wrecked everything.

It was a smart move, given that Richie’s alternative to continuing his NFL career is finding a real job in a real workplace that wouldn’t tolerate two percent of the stuff he routinely said and did in Miami.

So the next we’ll hear from Richie likely will come from his agents or lawyers, especially since attorney Mark Schamel declared on Friday that the Wells report is “replete with errors.” In more than two days since then, neither Schamel nor Incognito have identified a single erroneous fact, inference, or conclusion contained in the 144-page report. Schamel, however, has promised a thorough analysis of the report.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/02/16/incognito-pulls-plug-on-his-twitter-account/

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Chuck lecturing on the use of the N word.

Nice. Poke fun at me. I am the bad guy here. Don't bother addressing the issues, and by no means respond to any questions that come your way that you cannot answer without exposing your hypocrisy. You have been doing this for 3 months now, Don't go changing on us now!

 

[fatness]

That it was a guy being bullied trying to fit in with the bullies to lessen the bullying.

And that concentrating on that detail is diverting from the overall report and trying to grasp at a straw.

What is your opinion of the entire report?

Well I wrote above, guys like pouncey and incognito are douchey scumbags who probably have some buried gay tendencies given their conduct. They also produced too little to act like this. Incognito took his mediocre and if he's black balled from the league I could careless. Pouncey is on his way behind him.

The larger onus falls on dolphin management. Seems like they do no due diligence on their players because really in their own way, you wouldn't want any of the bullies or Martin on your team. They just seem to be an inept and awful organization at every step of the way.

But again, I can't get away from the fact that Martin is a sensitive and is sidestepping any responsibility in this manner. Whatever the motivation, he was an active participant in bullying. Also maybe you can explain to me how if he didn't alert anyone to his inner turmoil about this, neither peer, team management or his union, how is anyone supposed to know about his issues?

I agree with you that Incognito and Pouncey are turds. I have no idea about any gay tendencies they might have nor do I care. They did enjoy the freedom they had to bully others while with the Dolphins. And on that note I agree that the Dolphins not having any idea what was going on is either totally inept or willing blindness, probably both.

I also think that if Martin bullying someone was a large part of the problem it would have been identified as a large part of the problem by Ted Wells. This is what Wells identified as the crux of the problem:

Nonetheless, we ultimately concluded that Martin was indeed harassed by Incognito, who can fairly be described as the main instigator, and by Jerry and Pouncey, who tended to follow Incognito’s lead.

And I do think that attempts at pointing out Martin bullying, or questioning (as you just did) how the Dolphins could have known if Martin didn't make them aware) are grasping at some remaining way to pin this on Martin, as many people have done constantly through this topic. There are things in the report about Turner also, yet there's far less discussion of him than of Martin. Because some people have wanted all along to blame Martin, and they still want to, report be damned.

We're not speculating on much any more. The report is out, and it's detailed, and it identified the behavior of Incognito, Pouncey, and Jerry as the problem. And the leftover "pin something on Martin" seems a great deal like saying "In our study of this forest we're going to concentrate over and over on this branch of this tree".

 

[rdrouyn]

That's why they have juries.

I might be going on a limb here, but getting called racial names at your workplace for a span of two years can be argued by a half decent lawyer to be a pattern of harrasment.

I don't doubt that and I'm not defending that choice by incognito. It's a line not to be crossed. But Martin in a case would face cross and he'd have to answer:

- did you ever address this matter with incognito?

-did you address it with HR/management?

-did you address it with black players who used it?

-did you take issue with black players who used it?

And I would his answers.

And as an extension, could a white player make a case for having to hear the word used by black players?

 

[ChuckLiddell]

That it was a guy being bullied trying to fit in with the bullies to lessen the bullying.

And that concentrating on that detail is diverting from the overall report and trying to grasp at a straw.

What is your opinion of the entire report?

Well I wrote above, guys like pouncey and incognito are douchey scumbags who probably have some buried gay tendencies given their conduct. They also produced too little to act like this. Incognito took his mediocre and if he's black balled from the league I could careless. Pouncey is on his way behind him.

The larger onus falls on dolphin management. Seems like they do no due diligence on their players because really in their own way, you wouldn't want any of the bullies or Martin on your team. They just seem to be an inept and awful organization at every step of the way.

But again, I can't get away from the fact that Martin is a sensitive and is sidestepping any responsibility in this manner. Whatever the motivation, he was an active participant in bullying. Also maybe you can explain to me how if he didn't alert anyone to his inner turmoil about this, neither peer, team management or his union, how is anyone supposed to know about his issues?

I agree with you that Incognito and Pouncey are turds. I have no idea about any gay tendencies they might have nor do I care. They did enjoy the freedom they had to bully others while with the Dolphins. And on that note I agree that the Dolphins not having any idea what was going on is either totally inept or willing blindness, probably both.

I also think that if Martin bullying someone was a large part of the problem it would have been identified as a large part of the problem by Ted Wells. This is what Wells identified as the crux of the problem:

Nonetheless, we ultimately concluded that Martin was indeed harassed by Incognito, who can fairly be described as the main instigator, and by Jerry and Pouncey, who tended to follow Incognito’s lead.

And I do think that attempts at pointing out Martin bullying, or questioning (as you just did) how the Dolphins could have known if Martin didn't make them aware) are grasping at some remaining way to pin this on Martin, as many people have done constantly through this topic. There are things in the report about Turner also, yet there's far less discussion of him than of Martin. Because some people have wanted all along to blame Martin, and they still want to, report be damned.

We're not speculating on much any more. The report is out, and it's detailed, and it identified the behavior of Incognito, Pouncey, and Jerry as the problem. And the leftover "pin something on Martin" seems a great deal like saying "In our study of this forest we're going to concentrate over and over on this branch of this tree".

Yeah...Wells didn't go after Martin's actions because the guys that were his victims didn't complain about it. There was nothing to investigate, because to those guys, it was probably harmless.

You are wrong about "blaming Martin". At least as it relates to me. I don't have a personal problem with what he said or did. I joke like that with my buddies too. I have a problem with him being guilty of doing the same things that he is accusing others of doing to him. It is the hypocrisy. Is that so difficult to comprehend? It has been explained 20+ times. You may need to adjust the blinders a bit, and actually read it.. take it in for a second before you respond with some ignorant post about how dumb I am. Although it still wont sink in, because you have some sort of mental block against opening your mind to the possibility that Jon Martin is not Gandhi.

Others who are squarely on your side of the fence in this thread can see it and comprehend it...you cannot. Its baffling.

 

[proninja]

That it was a guy being bullied trying to fit in with the bullies to lessen the bullying.

And that concentrating on that detail is diverting from the overall report and trying to grasp at a straw.

What is your opinion of the entire report?

Well I wrote above, guys like pouncey and incognito are douchey scumbags who probably have some buried gay tendencies given their conduct. They also produced too little to act like this. Incognito took his mediocre and if he's black balled from the league I could careless. Pouncey is on his way behind him.

The larger onus falls on dolphin management. Seems like they do no due diligence on their players because really in their own way, you wouldn't want any of the bullies or Martin on your team. They just seem to be an inept and awful organization at every step of the way.

But again, I can't get away from the fact that Martin is a sensitive and is sidestepping any responsibility in this manner. Whatever the motivation, he was an active participant in bullying. Also maybe you can explain to me how if he didn't alert anyone to his inner turmoil about this, neither peer, team management or his union, how is anyone supposed to know about his issues?

I agree with you that Incognito and Pouncey are turds. I have no idea about any gay tendencies they might have nor do I care. They did enjoy the freedom they had to bully others while with the Dolphins. And on that note I agree that the Dolphins not having any idea what was going on is either totally inept or willing blindness, probably both.

I also think that if Martin bullying someone was a large part of the problem it would have been identified as a large part of the problem by Ted Wells. This is what Wells identified as the crux of the problem:

Nonetheless, we ultimately concluded that Martin was indeed harassed by Incognito, who can fairly be described as the main instigator, and by Jerry and Pouncey, who tended to follow Incognito’s lead.

And I do think that attempts at pointing out Martin bullying, or questioning (as you just did) how the Dolphins could have known if Martin didn't make them aware) are grasping at some remaining way to pin this on Martin, as many people have done constantly through this topic. There are things in the report about Turner also, yet there's far less discussion of him than of Martin. Because some people have wanted all along to blame Martin, and they still want to, report be damned.

We're not speculating on much any more. The report is out, and it's detailed, and it identified the behavior of Incognito, Pouncey, and Jerry as the problem. And the leftover "pin something on Martin" seems a great deal like saying "In our study of this forest we're going to concentrate over and over on this branch of this tree".

Yeah...Wells didn't go after Martin's actions because the guys that were his victims didn't complain about it. There was nothing to investigate, because to those guys, it was probably harmless.

You are wrong about "blaming Martin". At least as it relates to me. I don't have a personal problem with what he said or did. I joke like that with my buddies too. I have a problem with him being guilty of doing the same things that he is accusing others of doing to him. It is the hypocrisy. Is that so difficult to comprehend? It has been explained 20+ times. You may need to adjust the blinders a bit, and actually read it.. take it in for a second before you respond with some ignorant post about how dumb I am. Although it still wont sink in, because you have some sort of mental block against opening your mind to the possibility that Jon Martin is not Gandhi.

Others who are squarely on your side of the fence in this thread can see it and comprehend it...you cannot. Its baffling.

Sort of like how some of the nazis couldn't see how what the Third Reich was doing was in fact very wrong?

 

[Touchdown There]

Incognito will be internally blacklisted by the league. He will never play football again.

Pouncey will get a slap on the wrist snd stay with the Dolphins.

Martin will be traded and will someday receive a large workplace harassment settlement check.

Philbin will get one more year to watch Tannehill suck. The new GM will have no problem picking his own guy in 2015.

 

[rdrouyn]

Wow.... Just wow.

My argument was censored (really, you censor body parts?)

Definitions for the N word in the dictionary. Check out number 2 and 3. The term is not only meant in a disparaging way toward African Americans. At least not by definition. So why are African Americans given a pass to use it, but others are not?

OK, Geniuses...I know you will have a field day with all of this, and I will be branded American History X, or something similar. Just going to get in front of that...I didn't write the dictionary. I just quoted it.

noun
1.
Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive.
a.
a black person.
b.
a member of any dark-skinned people.
2.
Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive. a person of any race or origin regarded as contemptible, inferior, ignorant, etc.
3.
a victim of prejudice similar to that suffered by blacks; a person who is economically, politically, or socially disenfranchised.

 

[Smack Tripper]

That it was a guy being bullied trying to fit in with the bullies to lessen the bullying.

And that concentrating on that detail is diverting from the overall report and trying to grasp at a straw.

What is your opinion of the entire report?

Well I wrote above, guys like pouncey and incognito are douchey scumbags who probably have some buried gay tendencies given their conduct. They also produced too little to act like this. Incognito took his mediocre and if he's black balled from the league I could careless. Pouncey is on his way behind him.

The larger onus falls on dolphin management. Seems like they do no due diligence on their players because really in their own way, you wouldn't want any of the bullies or Martin on your team. They just seem to be an inept and awful organization at every step of the way.

But again, I can't get away from the fact that Martin is a sensitive and is sidestepping any responsibility in this manner. Whatever the motivation, he was an active participant in bullying. Also maybe you can explain to me how if he didn't alert anyone to his inner turmoil about this, neither peer, team management or his union, how is anyone supposed to know about his issues?

I agree with you that Incognito and Pouncey are turds. I have no idea about any gay tendencies they might have nor do I care. They did enjoy the freedom they had to bully others while with the Dolphins. And on that note I agree that the Dolphins not having any idea what was going on is either totally inept or willing blindness, probably both.

I also think that if Martin bullying someone was a large part of the problem it would have been identified as a large part of the problem by Ted Wells. This is what Wells identified as the crux of the problem:

Nonetheless, we ultimately concluded that Martin was indeed harassed by Incognito, who can fairly be described as the main instigator, and by Jerry and Pouncey, who tended to follow Incognito’s lead.

And I do think that attempts at pointing out Martin bullying, or questioning (as you just did) how the Dolphins could have known if Martin didn't make them aware) are grasping at some remaining way to pin this on Martin, as many people have done constantly through this topic. There are things in the report about Turner also, yet there's far less discussion of him than of Martin. Because some people have wanted all along to blame Martin, and they still want to, report be damned.

We're not speculating on much any more. The report is out, and it's detailed, and it identified the behavior of Incognito, Pouncey, and Jerry as the problem. And the leftover "pin something on Martin" seems a great deal like saying "In our study of this forest we're going to concentrate over and over on this branch of this tree".

Sorry, you don't get to gloss over the bolded.

The takeaway from all this is that this sort of behavior is finely tuned to internal thermostat of acceptance in the bullied, and I'm not even disagreeing with that inherently. Allowing for some measure of a community standard, I'm sure there are born again players who object to curse words, taking the lords name in vain or players detailing their conquest from a night before, but there is somehow a middle ground of a certain level of discourse in a locker room.

So that being said, knowing and allowing for a code of conduct beyond a norm, how is anyone supposed to know if Martin has a problem if Martin doesn't tell anyone? When it became known, the problem was dealt with (re Incognito, coaching and GM changes, and I would have fired Philbin too)

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Wow.... Just wow.

Now you are going to tell me someone who calls me an ####### is not insulting me because he is referring to my ######.

Definitions for the N word in the dictionary. Check out number 2 and 3. The term is not only meant in a disparaging way toward African Americans. At least not by definition. So why are African Americans given a pass to use it, but others are not?

OK, Geniuses...I know you will have a field day with all of this, and I will be branded American History X, or something similar. Just going to get in front of that...I didn't write the dictionary. I just quoted it.

noun

1.

Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive.

a.

a black person.

b.

a member of any dark-skinned people.

2.

Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive. a person of any race or origin regarded as contemptible, inferior, ignorant, etc.

3.

a victim of prejudice similar to that suffered by blacks; a person who is economically, politically, or socially disenfranchised.

I don't know what that says...but I should reiterate...I AM NOT THE DICTIONARY. I simply cut and pasted it.

The term is outrageously offensive, but that offense can be aimed at all races by definition - that again I DID NOT WRITE.

I am not telling you anything with regard to what should offend you. I quoted the dictionary.

 

[rdrouyn]

The definition of the N-word in the dictonary is irrelevant. We can know what was intended because of the context.

Secondly, how does this have anything to do with anything? Read the report, there are many cases of workplace harassment that aren't related to the N-word.

If you think he's a hypocrite, that's fine and I agree to a certain extent. But its not even close to what Richie was doing.

Wow.... Just wow.

Now you are going to tell me someone who calls me an ####### is not insulting me because he is referring to my ######.

Definitions for the N word in the dictionary. Check out number 2 and 3. The term is not only meant in a disparaging way toward African Americans. At least not by definition. So why are African Americans given a pass to use it, but others are not?

OK, Geniuses...I know you will have a field day with all of this, and I will be branded American History X, or something similar. Just going to get in front of that...I didn't write the dictionary. I just quoted it.

noun
1.
Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive.
a.
a black person.
b.
a member of any dark-skinned people.
2.
Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive. a person of any race or origin regarded as contemptible, inferior, ignorant, etc.
3.
a victim of prejudice similar to that suffered by blacks; a person who is economically, politically, or socially disenfranchised.

I don't know what that says...but I should reiterate...I AM NOT THE DICTIONARY. I simply cut and pasted it.

The term is outrageously offensive, but that offense can be aimed at all races by definition - that again I DID NOT WRITE.

I am not telling you anything with regard to what should offend you. I quoted the dictionary.

 

[Kalamazoo]

Here are some of the take-away messages I have about this:

* Martin definitely shares some of the blame for this situation. I understand that he felt trapped and in a bind and his depression was making everything worse. He was a victim, but he helped enable his own victimhood. I don't believe any of that in particular reflects badly on him as a person as some here do. I do, however, believe that his participation in the "banter", particularly the hurtful, nasty stuff, does reflect poorly on him and I hope he realizes that.

* I don't believe that Richie and Co. were necessarily being malicious and for now I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and won't conclude without further evidence that it makes them bad people. I do think that their treatment of the trainer and Richie's others antics (golf course, U of Nebraska incidents, etc.) do not reflect well on them as people.

So basically you see them the same.

Fatness, no I certainly do not. I'm sorry if I was a bit unclear here. I was trying to bend over backwards to be as fair as possible to everybody and probably didn't express myself well. Here's what I was trying to get across:

* Martin was a victim. No doubt. As I've said many times, I have tremendous sympathy and empathy for him and his situation.

* Martin also has some responsibility for the situation by not having tried to address it. He may not have had any good options, and has more or less said as much himself, but he didn't at least try before losing it. As I said in a previous post (post #4074(!) on Jan 31 (p. 82)), which I am only bringing up because you "liked" it, so I assume you've read it, I'm not sure that I would or could have done anything differently in such a situation, but I wouldn't have been proud of that.

* Martin does get demerits in my opinion for having played along with some of the really nasty stuff (dumb things like the lunchroom and the car, etc. don't count in my opinion). I'd have hoped he would have been above that, even if he couldn't do anything about his situation. I do understand why he did it, but I don't think it was OK. I have done things like that before on a minor scale, and it was wrong.

* Richie was not a victim. I think Richie is a baboon, a thug, and an overgrown man-child who was never socialized in any meaningful way. He is probably pure id. I can't even begin to imagine how his mind works, but the superego department seems to be pretty barren. What I meant to say is that it sounds like he wasn't being malicious in his harassment of Martin. Meaning he is completely and utterly clueless. I think this is borne out by the fact that he admitted all kinds of stuff to the investigators when he would have been better served to have kept his mouth shut (as the others did). I am not sure that Pouncey and Jerry were so innocent, though. Richie's oblivion does not in any way excuse his behavior (ignorance of the law is no excuse, etc...). However, I'm not sure that behavior, insofar as it was directed to Martin, was terrible in and of itself, given that apparently many other players (and perhaps various other posters on this board) seem to enjoy that sort of jolly, cheery banter. Richie-Id probably assumed it was accepted behavior and perhaps he was right more often than not. Where it went wrong was when it became uncomfortable for Martin and this information did not get through to Richie. I think many of the other things Richie has done were probably completely wrong from the outset. For example, I suppose there was a tiny chance the golf course lady would have welcomed the advances Richie made upon her, but what he did would have been wrong from the outset 99% of the time.

I'm not sure the above applies to Pouncey and Jerry, though.

<--- Does that make any more sense, or have I muddled it up even more?

 

[Kalamazoo]

I might be going on a limb here, but getting called racial names at your workplace for a span of two years can be argued by a half decent lawyer to be a pattern of harrasment.

I don't doubt that and I'm not defending that choice by incognito. It's a line not to be crossed.But Martin in a case would face cross and he'd have to answer:

- did you ever address this matter with incognito?

-did you address it with HR/management?

-did you address it with black players who used it?

-did you take issue with black players who used it?

And I would his answers.

And as an extension, could a white player make a case for having to hear the word used by black players?

Interesting point. The word is offensive by nature, regardless of what color you are. Many on this board are genuinely effected by the notion that it is ever used...even in a locker room by people who seemingly accept it. Who is to say that a white person would not find the term offensive? Would that constitute harassment as well?

Yeah, that is a good point. I'm white and I get offended when I hear the term and I would certainly ask that white people not use it around me, particularly given the connotations. If it were at work, it might feel like a hostile environment, even if it were directed at me and I wouldn't be comfortable being around it (I'm ok with most profanity, trash talk, etc.). I guess I wouldn't say anything if black people (and I guess any white/Asian/whatever people they gave permission to) were using it in a familiar way amongst themselves, because the context and connotations would be different, but I wouldn't be happy about it. However, I do feel like a black person like Martin would be within his rights to ask others not to use the word around him. It would, of course, be up to the others to decide whether to honor that or not, but I think it would be pretty jerky of them not to.

 

[Kalamazoo]

Wow.... Just wow.

Now you are going to tell me someone who calls me an ####### is not insulting me because he is referring to my ######.

Definitions for the N word in the dictionary. Check out number 2 and 3. The term is not only meant in a disparaging way toward African Americans. At least not by definition. So why are African Americans given a pass to use it, but others are not?

OK, Geniuses...I know you will have a field day with all of this, and I will be branded American History X, or something similar. Just going to get in front of that...I didn't write the dictionary. I just quoted it.

noun

1.

Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive.

a.

a black person.

b.

a member of any dark-skinned people.

2.

Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive. a person of any race or origin regarded as contemptible, inferior, ignorant, etc.

3.

a victim of prejudice similar to that suffered by blacks; a person who is economically, politically, or socially disenfranchised.

I don't know what that says...but I should reiterate...I AM NOT THE DICTIONARY. I simply cut and pasted it.

The term is outrageously offensive, but that offense can be aimed at all races by definition - that again I DID NOT WRITE.

I am not telling you anything with regard to what should offend you. I quoted the dictionary.

For whatever it's worth, it's true. The word was certainly frequently in reference to Irish Catholics ("white n*****s") by the British and in the United States. An example from a review of the book "How the Irish Became White":

"Ignatiev notes that in the 19th century, Irish were sometimes called “n*****s turned inside out” while black people were referred to as “smoked Irish.” His book displays antebellum-era political cartoons that treat both blacks and Irish with similar contempt."

(http://obrag.org/?p=34626)

 

[ratbast]

I will again state the point that this isn't Martin Vs Incognito. This is Martin and and even Incognito vs a flawed system of report in Miami. Whatever you think you know doesn't matter if the support system was nonexistent.

It will be because the other owners with support from NFL will be setting themselves up more formerly. Game changer.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Wow.... Just wow.

My argument was censored (really, you censor body parts?)

I didn't see your post. But yeah, if you've been around here for any amount of time, I think it's pretty obvious that certain names for certain body parts would be censored.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

Why are some people who so frequently said Incognito was not bullying (or that his bullying was OK and normal) so quick to want to brand Martin a bully?

Looks like grasping at straws to me.

Its the double standard and the hypocrisy that is being questioned. I don't actually think there was bullying by my standards. By Jon's standards there was. By Andrew McDonald's standards, there was not. Different standards...not right or wrong.

Better question - Why are some people who so frequently said that Martin was bullied so quick to alleviate him from any guilt for his own bullying and harassment?

You keep complaining about hypocrisy. That's like the Nazis saying "Hey those French people are a little tough on the Jews".

 

[squistion]

Definitions for the N word in the dictionary. Check out number 2 and 3. The term is not only meant in a disparaging way toward African Americans. At least not by definition. So why are African Americans given a pass to use it, but others are not?

OK, Geniuses...I know you will have a field day with all of this, and I will be branded American History X, or something similar. Just going to get in front of that...I didn't write the dictionary. I just quoted it.

noun

1. Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive. a. a black person.
b. a member of any dark-skinned people.
2. Slang: Extremely Disparaging and Offensive. a person of any race or origin regarded as contemptible, inferior, ignorant, etc.
3. a victim of prejudice similar to that suffered by blacks; a person who is economically, politically, or socially disenfranchised.

Um, perhaps they don't accept the dictionary definition as the ultimate truth of a word's meaning.

 

[fatness]

That it was a guy being bullied trying to fit in with the bullies to lessen the bullying.

And that concentrating on that detail is diverting from the overall report and trying to grasp at a straw.

What is your opinion of the entire report?

Well I wrote above, guys like pouncey and incognito are douchey scumbags who probably have some buried gay tendencies given their conduct. They also produced too little to act like this. Incognito took his mediocre and if he's black balled from the league I could careless. Pouncey is on his way behind him.

The larger onus falls on dolphin management. Seems like they do no due diligence on their players because really in their own way, you wouldn't want any of the bullies or Martin on your team. They just seem to be an inept and awful organization at every step of the way.

But again, I can't get away from the fact that Martin is a sensitive and is sidestepping any responsibility in this manner. Whatever the motivation, he was an active participant in bullying. Also maybe you can explain to me how if he didn't alert anyone to his inner turmoil about this, neither peer, team management or his union, how is anyone supposed to know about his issues?

I agree with you that Incognito and Pouncey are turds. I have no idea about any gay tendencies they might have nor do I care. They did enjoy the freedom they had to bully others while with the Dolphins. And on that note I agree that the Dolphins not having any idea what was going on is either totally inept or willing blindness, probably both.

I also think that if Martin bullying someone was a large part of the problem it would have been identified as a large part of the problem by Ted Wells. This is what Wells identified as the crux of the problem:

Nonetheless, we ultimately concluded that Martin was indeed harassed by Incognito, who can fairly be described as the main instigator, and by Jerry and Pouncey, who tended to follow Incognito’s lead.

And I do think that attempts at pointing out Martin bullying, or questioning (as you just did) how the Dolphins could have known if Martin didn't make them aware) are grasping at some remaining way to pin this on Martin, as many people have done constantly through this topic. There are things in the report about Turner also, yet there's far less discussion of him than of Martin. Because some people have wanted all along to blame Martin, and they still want to, report be damned.

We're not speculating on much any more. The report is out, and it's detailed, and it identified the behavior of Incognito, Pouncey, and Jerry as the problem. And the leftover "pin something on Martin" seems a great deal like saying "In our study of this forest we're going to concentrate over and over on this branch of this tree".

Sorry, you don't get to gloss over the bolded.

The takeaway from all this is that this sort of behavior is finely tuned to internal thermostat of acceptance in the bullied, and I'm not even disagreeing with that inherently. Allowing for some measure of a community standard, I'm sure there are born again players who object to curse words, taking the lords name in vain or players detailing their conquest from a night before, but there is somehow a middle ground of a certain level of discourse in a locker room.

So that being said, knowing and allowing for a code of conduct beyond a norm, how is anyone supposed to know if Martin has a problem if Martin doesn't tell anyone? When it became known, the problem was dealt with (re Incognito, coaching and GM changes, and I would have fired Philbin too)

The takeaway from this is that 3 thugs ran part of the Dolphins locker room, that management didn't know or didn't care, one player left the team as a result, another one won't be with the team as a result, that the league was rightly embarrassed by it, that a report came out, and that it's clear that what went on isn't acceptable or normal NFL locker room behavior. It came directly out of what Incognito, Pouncey, and Jerry did.

Saying that a team couldn't know what was going on and how far into objectionable land it was is where I totally disagree with you. And I do note, again, that your initial complaint was Martin was a participant in the bullying. And now you're bringing up a second complaint about him, that he had a duty to report and he failed. Nobody else reported all the objectionable behavior, but you're interested in assigning some blame to Martin. Which misses what the whole problem was.

 

[fatness]

<--- Does that make any more sense, or have I muddled it up even more?

Yes it does. Thank you for explaining.

 

[fatness]

You are wrong about "blaming Martin". At least as it relates to me. I don't have a personal problem with what he said or did. I joke like that with my buddies too.

You've spent most of this topic blaming Martin.

 

[CalBear]

Definitions for the N word in the dictionary. Check out number 2 and 3. The term is not only meant in a disparaging way toward African Americans. At least not by definition. So why are African Americans given a pass to use it, but others are not?

There's not a single African-American person I know who I've ever heard using the N-word (except in an academic linguistic context). Saying "blacks get a pass to use it" when the people who get a pass to use it are musicians, is like saying "white girls get a pass to wear a plastic bra and hot pants and twerk Robin Thicke" because Miley Cyrus did it.

 

[Bob Magaw]

If Incognito proves radioactive and is done in the NFL, he can start a national circuit of sensitivity training seminars.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Definitions for the N word in the dictionary. Check out number 2 and 3. The term is not only meant in a disparaging way toward African Americans. At least not by definition. So why are African Americans given a pass to use it, but others are not?

There's not a single African-American person I know who I've ever heard using the N-word (except in an academic linguistic context). Saying "blacks get a pass to use it" when the people who get a pass to use it are musicians, is like saying "white girls get a pass to wear a plastic bra and hot pants and twerk Robin Thicke" because Miley Cyrus did it.

This is interesting, and may explain some of the disconnect that is apparent in this thread.

I live in the DC Metro area, in a middle class suburb in between DC and Baltimore. Where I live, the N word is thrown around often, by people of all colors. The word is mostly used completely out of context per the dictionary. "My N-word", is used similarly to: "my man", "my brother", "dude", "my homie", "my friend". Its pretty common. The word still shocks me when I hear it because of what it has meant to society for most of my life, but in all honesty, the word has softened a bit over the years as it has made its way into the every day vernacular of so many people, and not in a negative way.

I have a 14 year old daughter. I cant believe I have to say this in a thread where people are so aggressively defending bullying, but please refrain from any negative comments about my daughter in this thread, as that will be very offensive. Negative comments about my son have already been made by people who dont even know me or him, so I do feel that this is necessary to say in this thread, with these particular regular posters. Anyway, my 14 year old daughter who is a very good kid uses the N word sometimes in my home. She uses it in a positive way - "He is my N-word" for example when referring to a good friend. I hate it, and she knows it. She does not use it when speaking to me, but I hear her and her friends (of white, and African American race) use it with eachother all the time. To them, the word is not what it is to many of us.

That said, She and I both know that she would be pushing her luck using the word outside of her own comfort zone, even though she does not mean it in a negative way. She is caucasian, and caucasians cannot use that word in public. However, if she were African American, there would be a different standard. There is a different standard. At least where I live.

You and I have simply been exposed to different experiences with the word. I wish I could make the claim that you have made above, but my experiences are simply different.

 

[Smack Tripper]

That it was a guy being bullied trying to fit in with the bullies to lessen the bullying.

And that concentrating on that detail is diverting from the overall report and trying to grasp at a straw.

What is your opinion of the entire report?

Well I wrote above, guys like pouncey and incognito are douchey scumbags who probably have some buried gay tendencies given their conduct. They also produced too little to act like this. Incognito took his mediocre and if he's black balled from the league I could careless. Pouncey is on his way behind him.

The larger onus falls on dolphin management. Seems like they do no due diligence on their players because really in their own way, you wouldn't want any of the bullies or Martin on your team. They just seem to be an inept and awful organization at every step of the way.

But again, I can't get away from the fact that Martin is a sensitive and is sidestepping any responsibility in this manner. Whatever the motivation, he was an active participant in bullying. Also maybe you can explain to me how if he didn't alert anyone to his inner turmoil about this, neither peer, team management or his union, how is anyone supposed to know about his issues?

I agree with you that Incognito and Pouncey are turds. I have no idea about any gay tendencies they might have nor do I care. They did enjoy the freedom they had to bully others while with the Dolphins. And on that note I agree that the Dolphins not having any idea what was going on is either totally inept or willing blindness, probably both.

I also think that if Martin bullying someone was a large part of the problem it would have been identified as a large part of the problem by Ted Wells. This is what Wells identified as the crux of the problem:

Nonetheless, we ultimately concluded that Martin was indeed harassed by Incognito, who can fairly be described as the main instigator, and by Jerry and Pouncey, who tended to follow Incognito’s lead.

And I do think that attempts at pointing out Martin bullying, or questioning (as you just did) how the Dolphins could have known if Martin didn't make them aware) are grasping at some remaining way to pin this on Martin, as many people have done constantly through this topic. There are things in the report about Turner also, yet there's far less discussion of him than of Martin. Because some people have wanted all along to blame Martin, and they still want to, report be damned.

We're not speculating on much any more. The report is out, and it's detailed, and it identified the behavior of Incognito, Pouncey, and Jerry as the problem. And the leftover "pin something on Martin" seems a great deal like saying "In our study of this forest we're going to concentrate over and over on this branch of this tree".

Sorry, you don't get to gloss over the bolded.

The takeaway from all this is that this sort of behavior is finely tuned to internal thermostat of acceptance in the bullied, and I'm not even disagreeing with that inherently. Allowing for some measure of a community standard, I'm sure there are born again players who object to curse words, taking the lords name in vain or players detailing their conquest from a night before, but there is somehow a middle ground of a certain level of discourse in a locker room.

So that being said, knowing and allowing for a code of conduct beyond a norm, how is anyone supposed to know if Martin has a problem if Martin doesn't tell anyone? When it became known, the problem was dealt with (re Incognito, coaching and GM changes, and I would have fired Philbin too)

The takeaway from this is that 3 thugs ran part of the Dolphins locker room, that management didn't know or didn't care, one player left the team as a result, another one won't be with the team as a result, that the league was rightly embarrassed by it, that a report came out, and that it's clear that what went on isn't acceptable or normal NFL locker room behavior. It came directly out of what Incognito, Pouncey, and Jerry did.

Saying that a team couldn't know what was going on and how far into objectionable land it was is where I totally disagree with you. And I do note, again, that your initial complaint was Martin was a participant in the bullying. And now you're bringing up a second complaint about him, that he had a duty to report and he failed. Nobody else reported all the objectionable behavior, but you're interested in assigning some blame to Martin. Which misses what the whole problem was.

Again having not read the totality of the report, I can't speak for every incident but its seems like a lot the issues were with off the field and away from the facility incidents. They include:

-texting, including where Martin's sister was "threatened"

-some sort of physical altercation at a nightclub

-the Las Vegas trip

How exactly should a team know about this, again short of someone telling the team about it?

And forgetting the team, how is Incognito supposed to know about Martin's issues if he exchanges the number of texts and socializes routinely with this guy?

As for the assertion that "three thugs ran the locker room", I see no support for this. Generally these sorts of things begin their division by offense and defense and then by position. I just don't see their influence extending over the locker room. I don't doubt they were dbags to their entire position

I have no dog in this fight, and I don't really care for any of these people based on what I heard. But I do think this problem being solved the way it has will do nothing for Martin's underlying self image issues that he's a pushover. Jonathan Martin's problem is less to do with the locker room than the fact that he's got the personality of George McFly.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

I live in the DC Metro area, in a middle class suburb in between DC and Baltimore. Where I live, the N word is thrown around often, by people of all colors. The word is mostly used completely out of context per the dictionary. "My N-word", is used similarly to: "my man", "my brother", "dude", "my homie", "my friend". Its pretty common. The word still shocks me when I hear it because of what it has meant to society for most of my life, but in all honesty, the word has softened a bit over the years as it has made its way into the every day vernacular of so many people, and not in a negative way.

No it isn't pretty common. That's a 100% fabrication.

I have a 14 year old daughter. I cant believe I have to say this in a thread where people are so aggressively defending bullying, but please refrain from any negative comments about my daughter in this thread, as that will be very offensive. Negative comments about my son have already been made by people who dont even know me or him, so I do feel that this is necessary to say in this thread, with these particular regular posters. Anyway, my 14 year old daughter who is a very good kid uses the N word sometimes in my home. She uses it in a positive way - "He is my N-word" for example when referring to a good friend. I hate it, and she knows it. She does not use it when speaking to me, but I hear her and her friends (of white, and African American race) use it with eachother all the time. To them, the word is not what it is to many of us.

It's shameful that you say that the word is used in a positive way. In fact, I find that to be a pretty disgusting statement by you.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Definitions for the N word in the dictionary. Check out number 2 and 3. The term is not only meant in a disparaging way toward African Americans. At least not by definition. So why are African Americans given a pass to use it, but others are not?

There's not a single African-American person I know who I've ever heard using the N-word (except in an academic linguistic context). Saying "blacks get a pass to use it" when the people who get a pass to use it are musicians, is like saying "white girls get a pass to wear a plastic bra and hot pants and twerk Robin Thicke" because Miley Cyrus did it.

I live in the DC Metro area, in a middle class suburb in between DC and Baltimore. Where I live, the N word is thrown around often, by people of all colors. The word is mostly used completely out of context per the dictionary. "My N-word", is used similarly to: "my man", "my brother", "dude", "my homie", "my friend". Its pretty common. The word still shocks me when I hear it because of what it has meant to society for most of my life, but in all honesty, the word has softened a bit over the years as it has made its way into the every day vernacular of so many people, and not in a negative way.

No it isn't pretty common. That's a 100% fabrication.

I have a 14 year old daughter. I cant believe I have to say this in a thread where people are so aggressively defending bullying, but please refrain from any negative comments about my daughter in this thread, as that will be very offensive. Negative comments about my son have already been made by people who dont even know me or him, so I do feel that this is necessary to say in this thread, with these particular regular posters. Anyway, my 14 year old daughter who is a very good kid uses the N word sometimes in my home. She uses it in a positive way - "He is my N-word" for example when referring to a good friend. I hate it, and she knows it. She does not use it when speaking to me, but I hear her and her friends (of white, and African American race) use it with eachother all the time. To them, the word is not what it is to many of us.

It's shameful that you say that the word is used in a positive way. In fact, I find that to be a pretty disgusting statement by you.

God I wish I would have known this stuff pages ago.

The disconnect is to far to even attempt to make sense of this.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Definitions for the N word in the dictionary. Check out number 2 and 3. The term is not only meant in a disparaging way toward African Americans. At least not by definition. So why are African Americans given a pass to use it, but others are not?

There's not a single African-American person I know who I've ever heard using the N-word (except in an academic linguistic context). Saying "blacks get a pass to use it" when the people who get a pass to use it are musicians, is like saying "white girls get a pass to wear a plastic bra and hot pants and twerk Robin Thicke" because Miley Cyrus did it.

I live in the DC Metro area, in a middle class suburb in between DC and Baltimore. Where I live, the N word is thrown around often, by people of all colors. The word is mostly used completely out of context per the dictionary. "My N-word", is used similarly to: "my man", "my brother", "dude", "my homie", "my friend". Its pretty common. The word still shocks me when I hear it because of what it has meant to society for most of my life, but in all honesty, the word has softened a bit over the years as it has made its way into the every day vernacular of so many people, and not in a negative way.

No it isn't pretty common. That's a 100% fabrication.

I have a 14 year old daughter. I cant believe I have to say this in a thread where people are so aggressively defending bullying, but please refrain from any negative comments about my daughter in this thread, as that will be very offensive. Negative comments about my son have already been made by people who dont even know me or him, so I do feel that this is necessary to say in this thread, with these particular regular posters. Anyway, my 14 year old daughter who is a very good kid uses the N word sometimes in my home. She uses it in a positive way - "He is my N-word" for example when referring to a good friend. I hate it, and she knows it. She does not use it when speaking to me, but I hear her and her friends (of white, and African American race) use it with eachother all the time. To them, the word is not what it is to many of us.

It's shameful that you say that the word is used in a positive way. In fact, I find that to be a pretty disgusting statement by you.

God I wish I would have known this stuff pages ago.

The disconnect is to far to even attempt to make sense of this.

At least some of the positions that these people have taken make more sense now. Before I thought it was stupidity or blinders. I now realize that it is much more innocent - just plain ignorance to the reality of what goes on outside of the bubble that they live in.

For any who find my experiences to be disgusting, I dont know what to say. I would apologize if I felt one was owed, but it really is just different experiences. The apology is owed by society, not by me. I now have a better understanding of where you are coming from based upon what you have been exposed to. I am pretty confident though that there are plenty of people who hear what I am saying in that post. Clearly there are others who do not. I am sorry if people find it offensive, but I am not sorry for sharing it.

For what its worth to those offended by my post, I too am disgusted by the word. But I do understand that it is used in different contexts, and I personally am less offended (albeit still uncomfortable) by it when it is used in certain contexts. If I had the power to strike the word from the English language, I would. I understand the disgust.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

God I wish I would have known this stuff pages ago.

The disconnect is to far to even attempt to make sense of this.

Why do you think I stopped many pages ago? Eventually there won't be a disconnect. The number of people like you and Chuck are decreasing, even more quickly as time progresses. I'm thankful for that.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

God I wish I would have known this stuff pages ago.

The disconnect is to far to even attempt to make sense of this.

Why do you think I stopped many pages ago? Eventually there won't be a disconnect. The number of people like you and Chuck are decreasing, even more quickly as time progresses. I'm thankful for that.

The worlds you and I live in are too far apart to even begin discussing let alone what you think me and Chuck are. I'm sure Chuck may continue on trying to find a middle ground or make sense to you but after reading your quotes above it is just impossible. We'll have to leave it at that.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

God I wish I would have known this stuff pages ago.

The disconnect is to far to even attempt to make sense of this.

Why do you think I stopped many pages ago? Eventually there won't be a disconnect. The number of people like you and Chuck are decreasing, even more quickly as time progresses. I'm thankful for that.

The worlds you and I live in are too far apart to even begin discussing let alone what you think me and Chuck are. I'm sure Chuck may continue on trying to find a middle ground or make sense to you but after reading your quotes above it is just impossible. We'll have to leave it at that.

Amen. I am with you.

MTS - In all sincerity and I am not trying to be a jerk...if you dont want to hear what people like us (AKA, those with different opinions than yours) have to say then you should put us on ignore (as many have already done with you) rather than hoping for us to leave the thread. Im about done in here anyway, but I may post elsewhere at some point, and if my posts seriously offend you, you dont have to see them. This is an outlet for entertainment, and if it is not providing that, take steps to correct your situation.