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Dolphin Players bullied Jonathan Martin, Richie Incognito SUSPENDED (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter KellysHeroes
- Start date
KCitons
Footballguy
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
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ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
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MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
It seems this thread is as much about the posters in it than the actual situation.
Can someone that isn't wrapped up in this list the actual facts here? I know that
Martin left the Dolphins facility during lunch.
Martin went to California to visit family. (and possibly some mental health pro?)
Incognito was suspended for something.
Martin had a good time at a titty bar once.
Man, it's been a while.
Can someone that isn't wrapped up in this list the actual facts here? I know that
Martin left the Dolphins facility during lunch.
Martin went to California to visit family. (and possibly some mental health pro?)
Incognito was suspended for something.
Martin had a good time at a titty bar once.
Man, it's been a while.
KCitons
Footballguy
Aren't we just having some friendly locker room banter? Just like Richie and Jonathan.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
Good questions. Given KC's position that Lenny Bias' death was staged by the government to avoid the Celtics becoming a dynasty, and that he is still alive going by the name "Todem", anything is possible.Your thoughts on the moon landing and 9 11 being an inside job KC?If he sues for hazing, he isn't going to have a case. Someone would have to cross the line from hazing to bullying in order for it to have a chance at winning. If you think this is about run of the mill hazing in the NFL, then you're wrong.Where did this come from? When did I accuse Martin of being a bully? I said he was a hypocrite. If he sues, it will be for hazing that his attorneys claim to be bullying. At least based upon what we know today.I guess you will never understand Chuck. Do you know the difference between hazing and bullying.
Show me any proof of Martin being a bully. If he sues, it won't be for hazing. It will be for bullying.
You're comparing apples to oranges.
Or maybe I should just go to the standard reply. You must be fishing or trolling, 'cause you can't be serious.
That's the standard reply? I have never used that reply ever. No idea where you are coming from with this post.
....and now for something completely different.
Where did this TMZ picture come from? And how do we know it to be legit?
I spent 15 minutes and turned the player into Maurkise Pouncey. Imagine what someone skilled in photoshop could do.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
That is not the first KC post that ever made me laugh, but it was the first one that made me laugh that was actually intended to be funny. Bravo!
Stealthycat
Footballguy
the truth is coming out
Richie Incognito is fighting back.
The Miami Dolphins offensive lineman who was suspended by his team for allegedly bullying teammate Jonathan Martin fully intends to return to pro football as a free agent in the 2014 season, people close to him tell Fox News.
What's more, Incognito has hired high-profile public relations firm Sitrick & Co. to mount a public defense and rebut allegations he bullied Martin, while his attorneys have turned over information to the National Football League that they believe shows Martin to be a troubled player both on and off the field, who at times made inflammatory and vulgar comments to Incognito.
The moves by Incognito come as the NFL's investigation of allegations that Martin was the target of bullying by Incognito and possibly other teammates has largely concluded, according to people with direct knowledge of the probe. High-profile attorney Theodore Wells, who is conducting the investigation, concluded the vast majority of his interviews with Dolphin players in late November, these people say.
Wells is expected to issue a final report sometime after Sunday’s Super Bowl, these people add. One issue that Wells is said to be grappling with is evidence turned over by lawyers for Incognito that they believe casts doubt on the allegation that Incognito harassed Martin. Rather, it suggests that both players were friends who engaged in crude locker room banter over a period of many months.
Incognito's attorneys also stressed that Martin came forward with the bullying charge in November of last year only after it appeared he might lose his starting job with the Miami Dolphins, and he abruptly left the team. That’s when he attempted to make the Dolphins locker-room appear to be a "hostile work environment" as grounds for a possible lawsuit, they said. Martin didn’t return for the rest of the season.
Incognito's attorneys argued to Wells that Martin’s mother is a prominent attorney with a background in labor law, and that before he left the team, Martin never said he was uncomfortable with the tone of his discussions with Incognito.
In a statement to Fox News, Incognito's attorney Mark Schamel of the law firm of Womble, Carlyle, Sandridge & Rice, said: "The coarse and unacceptable comments and text messages that were sent to Jonathan Martin were of the same poor taste as those sent by him. All of these communications were provided to Ted Wells and the NFL investigation. What they show is banter between friends, not bullying."
Schamel added: "Jonathan Martin sent text messages to Richie Incognito which included threats to send someone over to Richie Incognito's home with a 'tranquilizer gun and sandpaper condoms' to homosexually rape him. Jonathan Martin sent another that said he would 'kill (Richies’s) whole family.' There was another where Jonathan Martin indicated he would ejaculate in Richie’s face."
Martin’s attorney, David Cornwell, declined both email and telephone requests for comment. Martin’s spokeswoman, Ann Marchant, told Fox News that Wells and the NFL investigators have "the entire series of texts and it's more accurate to look at all of them," adding that to the extent Martin had made crude comments to Incognito, it was in the context of trying "to be a friend to Richie and to fit in" with the team.
She added that Incognito sent emails yet to be made public where Incognito "talks about gang raping (Martin's) mother and sister. They are very vile."
Marchant said Martin has no plans to file a lawsuit in the matter, but does intend on returning to the NFL in the 2014 season, though not with the Miami Dolphins, which she described as a “toxic environment.” Martin remains on the Miami Dolphins roster; owner Stephen Ross has indicated that neither Martin nor Incognito will return to the team.
Press officials for the NFL, the Miami Dolphins and Wells declined to comment.
Martin has spoken out just once about the matter, in a recent interview with NBC in which he said he felt "trapped" by the locker room bullying. Incognito, for his part, has given one interview with Fox Sports' Jay Glazer, in which Incognito conceded using racially charged language in the voicemail left with Martin, but described it as banter between friends.
His lawyer’s comments to Fox News add new light to the controversy which began last November, when Martin abruptly walked out amid charges of bullying on the team. Martin is said to have taken particular aim at Incognito, who was considered one of his closest friends.
In one voicemail message that was made public, Incognito called Martin a "half n----- piece of s---," and telling Martin that "I want to kill you." Incognito’s attorneys have argued to Wells that the message was taken out of context, since the rest of the voicemail shows the two speaking as friends.
That said, the episode cast a harsh light on NFL locker room culture, especially when details emerged that Incognito allegedly took it upon himself to toughen up Martin, who joined the team as a rookie in 2012. Incognito is an eight-year veteran who made the Pro Bowl in 2012 and is considered one of the league’s best and most aggressive offensive linemen.
Soon after details of the alleged bullying surfaced, Incognito was suspended by the Dolphins; he is officially an unrestricted free agent for the 2014 season, though the controversy has placed a cloud over his career, with many in the sports world questioning whether he will return.
More recently, Incognito, through his attorneys, has been pressing a case with Wells that while he may have made outrageous and at times racially charged comments, Martin wasn’t an aggrieved party; in fact, they say he was a willing participant in what has been described as dirty locker room talk between two friends.
In fact, they've provided Wells with one text dated Nov. 1, 2013 in which Martin says about the controversy: "It's insane bro but just know I don’t blame you guys at all it's just the culture around football and the locker room got to me a little."
People close to Incognito say his lawyers handed Wells hundreds of text-message conversations between the two players. In one such conversation, dated Dec. 17, 2012, Martin told Incognito that “Ima egg your house & light a bag of s--- on fire then ring your doorbell.”
A minute later Incognito responded: "I'm going to shoot you and claim self-defense," adding: "Im white ur black I’ll walk."
Martin shot back: "Im gonna give McDonald bath salts & lock him in your house with a tranquilizer gun & a box of sand paper condoms."
Incognito responded a minute later "hahaha."
In a series of interviews with Wells, Incognito's lawyers also described Martin as a troubled young man, someone who missed team meetings and had difficulty keeping up with the rigors of daily life in the NFL, particularly in 2013, when he was worried he would lose his starting job. They pointed Wells to text messages where they described Martin telling Incognito that he had sought mental-health counseling to deal with intense anxiety.
It’s unclear to what extent the Miami Dolphins knew about this at the time
The text messages also provide indications of Martin’s alleged possible drug use, Incognito’s lawyers have asserted. In one, dated June 15, 2013, Incognito asked Martin, "Hahaha What did u do last night."
Martin’s response two minutes later: "Smoked for the first time in 5 months."
"Nice! We’re u ripped?" Incognito asked.
Martin: "Yeah bro haha."
In another set of texts, dated Aug. 31, 2013, Incognito asks Martin to join him and two female companions for "dinner and drinks," but Martin demurred stating, "My friend Mary Jane has me glued to the couch."
"F---ing stoner," Incognito shot back (the term "Mary Jane" is a common short-hand for marijuana).
In a statement to Fox, Schamel said "Jonathan Martin also raised concerns with Richie Incognito that he was not playing well, about how upset he was at being ranked by Pro Football Focus as among the worst lineman in the NFL, about his poor performance on the field, his demotion to right tackle and how he was concerned about what the outcome might be for his missing team meetings and about how he felt his job was at risk."
He added: "It was only after sharing these concerns, and Martin's abandonment of the team, that the bullying allegations were raised. Rather than deal with his poor on field performance and myriad other issues, Martin is now hiding behind false allegations."
Richie Incognito is fighting back.
The Miami Dolphins offensive lineman who was suspended by his team for allegedly bullying teammate Jonathan Martin fully intends to return to pro football as a free agent in the 2014 season, people close to him tell Fox News.
What's more, Incognito has hired high-profile public relations firm Sitrick & Co. to mount a public defense and rebut allegations he bullied Martin, while his attorneys have turned over information to the National Football League that they believe shows Martin to be a troubled player both on and off the field, who at times made inflammatory and vulgar comments to Incognito.
The moves by Incognito come as the NFL's investigation of allegations that Martin was the target of bullying by Incognito and possibly other teammates has largely concluded, according to people with direct knowledge of the probe. High-profile attorney Theodore Wells, who is conducting the investigation, concluded the vast majority of his interviews with Dolphin players in late November, these people say.
Wells is expected to issue a final report sometime after Sunday’s Super Bowl, these people add. One issue that Wells is said to be grappling with is evidence turned over by lawyers for Incognito that they believe casts doubt on the allegation that Incognito harassed Martin. Rather, it suggests that both players were friends who engaged in crude locker room banter over a period of many months.
Incognito's attorneys also stressed that Martin came forward with the bullying charge in November of last year only after it appeared he might lose his starting job with the Miami Dolphins, and he abruptly left the team. That’s when he attempted to make the Dolphins locker-room appear to be a "hostile work environment" as grounds for a possible lawsuit, they said. Martin didn’t return for the rest of the season.
Incognito's attorneys argued to Wells that Martin’s mother is a prominent attorney with a background in labor law, and that before he left the team, Martin never said he was uncomfortable with the tone of his discussions with Incognito.
In a statement to Fox News, Incognito's attorney Mark Schamel of the law firm of Womble, Carlyle, Sandridge & Rice, said: "The coarse and unacceptable comments and text messages that were sent to Jonathan Martin were of the same poor taste as those sent by him. All of these communications were provided to Ted Wells and the NFL investigation. What they show is banter between friends, not bullying."
Schamel added: "Jonathan Martin sent text messages to Richie Incognito which included threats to send someone over to Richie Incognito's home with a 'tranquilizer gun and sandpaper condoms' to homosexually rape him. Jonathan Martin sent another that said he would 'kill (Richies’s) whole family.' There was another where Jonathan Martin indicated he would ejaculate in Richie’s face."
Martin’s attorney, David Cornwell, declined both email and telephone requests for comment. Martin’s spokeswoman, Ann Marchant, told Fox News that Wells and the NFL investigators have "the entire series of texts and it's more accurate to look at all of them," adding that to the extent Martin had made crude comments to Incognito, it was in the context of trying "to be a friend to Richie and to fit in" with the team.
She added that Incognito sent emails yet to be made public where Incognito "talks about gang raping (Martin's) mother and sister. They are very vile."
Marchant said Martin has no plans to file a lawsuit in the matter, but does intend on returning to the NFL in the 2014 season, though not with the Miami Dolphins, which she described as a “toxic environment.” Martin remains on the Miami Dolphins roster; owner Stephen Ross has indicated that neither Martin nor Incognito will return to the team.
Press officials for the NFL, the Miami Dolphins and Wells declined to comment.
Martin has spoken out just once about the matter, in a recent interview with NBC in which he said he felt "trapped" by the locker room bullying. Incognito, for his part, has given one interview with Fox Sports' Jay Glazer, in which Incognito conceded using racially charged language in the voicemail left with Martin, but described it as banter between friends.
His lawyer’s comments to Fox News add new light to the controversy which began last November, when Martin abruptly walked out amid charges of bullying on the team. Martin is said to have taken particular aim at Incognito, who was considered one of his closest friends.
In one voicemail message that was made public, Incognito called Martin a "half n----- piece of s---," and telling Martin that "I want to kill you." Incognito’s attorneys have argued to Wells that the message was taken out of context, since the rest of the voicemail shows the two speaking as friends.
That said, the episode cast a harsh light on NFL locker room culture, especially when details emerged that Incognito allegedly took it upon himself to toughen up Martin, who joined the team as a rookie in 2012. Incognito is an eight-year veteran who made the Pro Bowl in 2012 and is considered one of the league’s best and most aggressive offensive linemen.
Soon after details of the alleged bullying surfaced, Incognito was suspended by the Dolphins; he is officially an unrestricted free agent for the 2014 season, though the controversy has placed a cloud over his career, with many in the sports world questioning whether he will return.
More recently, Incognito, through his attorneys, has been pressing a case with Wells that while he may have made outrageous and at times racially charged comments, Martin wasn’t an aggrieved party; in fact, they say he was a willing participant in what has been described as dirty locker room talk between two friends.
In fact, they've provided Wells with one text dated Nov. 1, 2013 in which Martin says about the controversy: "It's insane bro but just know I don’t blame you guys at all it's just the culture around football and the locker room got to me a little."
People close to Incognito say his lawyers handed Wells hundreds of text-message conversations between the two players. In one such conversation, dated Dec. 17, 2012, Martin told Incognito that “Ima egg your house & light a bag of s--- on fire then ring your doorbell.”
A minute later Incognito responded: "I'm going to shoot you and claim self-defense," adding: "Im white ur black I’ll walk."
Martin shot back: "Im gonna give McDonald bath salts & lock him in your house with a tranquilizer gun & a box of sand paper condoms."
Incognito responded a minute later "hahaha."
In a series of interviews with Wells, Incognito's lawyers also described Martin as a troubled young man, someone who missed team meetings and had difficulty keeping up with the rigors of daily life in the NFL, particularly in 2013, when he was worried he would lose his starting job. They pointed Wells to text messages where they described Martin telling Incognito that he had sought mental-health counseling to deal with intense anxiety.
It’s unclear to what extent the Miami Dolphins knew about this at the time
The text messages also provide indications of Martin’s alleged possible drug use, Incognito’s lawyers have asserted. In one, dated June 15, 2013, Incognito asked Martin, "Hahaha What did u do last night."
Martin’s response two minutes later: "Smoked for the first time in 5 months."
"Nice! We’re u ripped?" Incognito asked.
Martin: "Yeah bro haha."
In another set of texts, dated Aug. 31, 2013, Incognito asks Martin to join him and two female companions for "dinner and drinks," but Martin demurred stating, "My friend Mary Jane has me glued to the couch."
"F---ing stoner," Incognito shot back (the term "Mary Jane" is a common short-hand for marijuana).
In a statement to Fox, Schamel said "Jonathan Martin also raised concerns with Richie Incognito that he was not playing well, about how upset he was at being ranked by Pro Football Focus as among the worst lineman in the NFL, about his poor performance on the field, his demotion to right tackle and how he was concerned about what the outcome might be for his missing team meetings and about how he felt his job was at risk."
He added: "It was only after sharing these concerns, and Martin's abandonment of the team, that the bullying allegations were raised. Rather than deal with his poor on field performance and myriad other issues, Martin is now hiding behind false allegations."
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
That's the first piece that poked a tiny hole in my "Martin is an evil super genius" theory. It still holds up pretty well though. However, Fox News. I'd be skeptical if they reported that the earth was round (they wouldn't of course, since they still on the flat earth idea).
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
The good news for many posters in this thread is that they now may have a new victim to blindly support from this particular case. His name is Richie Incognito.
Alanis could write a song about this.
Alanis could write a song about this.
KCitons
Footballguy
Couple of points.
1- these are statements from Richie's lawyers. Simple posturing prior to the release of the Wells report. So, take them with a grain of salt. Every person convicted of murder or a ponzi scheme has had their lawyer claim innocence in the days leading up to the trial. No different than anything said by Martin's lawyers, Richie's interview with Glazer, or Martin's interview last night. Give me facts and a ruling by the NFL, then we will know who is to blame.
2 - still no law suit filed? This does blow holes in the theory of some posters here, that Martin was looking for a paycheck without playing.
3- It may be Incognito that ultimately files a lawsuit. Depending on the facts of the case and whether or not he signs with a new team.
4 - I will never blindly support King Richie as a victim. He could be the recipient of that sandpaper condom and I would chalk it up to Karma.
1- these are statements from Richie's lawyers. Simple posturing prior to the release of the Wells report. So, take them with a grain of salt. Every person convicted of murder or a ponzi scheme has had their lawyer claim innocence in the days leading up to the trial. No different than anything said by Martin's lawyers, Richie's interview with Glazer, or Martin's interview last night. Give me facts and a ruling by the NFL, then we will know who is to blame.
2 - still no law suit filed? This does blow holes in the theory of some posters here, that Martin was looking for a paycheck without playing.
3- It may be Incognito that ultimately files a lawsuit. Depending on the facts of the case and whether or not he signs with a new team.
4 - I will never blindly support King Richie as a victim. He could be the recipient of that sandpaper condom and I would chalk it up to Karma.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
Yeah, Dude...no lawsuit because the case is being exposed as the piece of crud BS nonsense that many of us were able to see from a mile away. Why did he hire a lawyer who started posturing for bullying and a harsh workplace if not to pursue a lawsuit? If he just wanted to expose some sort of locker room cultural issue, did he need to hire an attorney? Smoke...fire. Can you seriously not deduct that without my help?
Richie may actually have a legit lawsuit. Defamation of character against Martin. It will likely cost him a ton of money, and maybe his career. He also may have a lawsuit against the team for unjustifiably suspending him - although I suspect the team buttoned that up when they agreed to pay him. Come to think of it, there is no reason to suspect that the team did that, because the team is run by buffoons...but they should have.
Richie may actually have a legit lawsuit. Defamation of character against Martin. It will likely cost him a ton of money, and maybe his career. He also may have a lawsuit against the team for unjustifiably suspending him - although I suspect the team buttoned that up when they agreed to pay him. Come to think of it, there is no reason to suspect that the team did that, because the team is run by buffoons...but they should have.
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ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
Here are Armando Salguero's thoughts, from yesterday's herald.
Some news and opinion on Jonathan Martin interview
Some news and opinion on Jonathan Martin interview
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Dungy was named to the committee by Stephen Ross, I posted it in the Miami Dolphins thread. How ironic that he is interviewing Martin and then supposedly was named as the committee chair by Ross back in November. I guess that committee dissolved quickly.
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
People are going to believe what they want to believe, that's everyone. The MOP/Todem/Lidell/wish-they-were-toughguy group's hypocrisy here is much worse than yours if that's any consolation. Despite it being unpopular, my theory trumps everyone else's here, and that's OK. I'm pretty sure after the report is released, and if Martin ever becomes forthright about his intentions that it'll be more accepted. I suggest you get on board early.KCitons said:
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
How is the group you called out being hypocritical? Serious question. I'll own it if its legit.
KCitons
Footballguy
Chuck, as much as I enjoy discussing this with you, neither one of us have any real facts to determine whether Martin or Incognito are at fault.
The reason I engage you at all, is based on your belief that men need to be tough. And that nothing should be able to hurt them physically or emotionally. Especially if you are professional football player. I don't think we will ever find common ground on this issue.
The reason I engage you at all, is based on your belief that men need to be tough. And that nothing should be able to hurt them physically or emotionally. Especially if you are professional football player. I don't think we will ever find common ground on this issue.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
Agreed...especially since you just made all of that up.
Saying that I don't think running out on your team and hiring a lawyer for being called a name is an appropriate response does not mean that I think a man should feel no emotions. Stop the spinning schtick. Its played.
KCitons
Footballguy
Not spinning Chuck. You were the one that said Martin was weak and can't handle the environment of an NFL locker room. This was before you had/have any facts. You've also stated that Martin was doing this to establish the ground work for a lawsuit. Yet, no lawsuit has been filed.
So, now we have a person who walked away from an NFL career for what? Common sense would tell you that he had to be under some type of mental stress to do this. Whether he is found to have a mental, or bipolar, it was still something that warranted people to take notice. Was the NFL locker room the cause of this mental stress? You however, see this as being weak.
Also want to point out that Richie hiring a one of the best PR people in the country seems odd. If the Wells report shows that he did nothing wrong, why spend six figures on a PR person? This is something a Senator does after being caught in the men's room snorting coke and tap dancing.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
You are a piece of work.
Nothing you outlined here regarding my position is false, but none of it supports your statement that I feel "that men need to be tough. And that nothing should be able to hurt them physically or emotionally. Especially if you are professional football player".
Partially, there is some truth in there...even though quite by accident on your part. I do want the gladiators on the team I root for to be able to handle being called a name without quitting on the team, running to mommy, and hiring a lawyer. I hold the people that play professional football to different standards than I do for an 11 year old boy on a playground. That's how I feel. Sorry if it offends you.
Richie had little choice here in my opinion if he wanted to continue a career in the NFL. His character has been assassinated by your boy. There are things worthy of assassination with regards to Richie's character, but from what I can see combined with my own common sense, bullying your boy is not one of them.
You act like I am the only person that feels that Martin is weak and seeking a payday, but if you took the time to read what the sports writers in Miami are saying, they all feel pretty much the same way. As the story goes on, and Martin digs his hole even deeper, they seem to be getting more and more firm in their positions. Political correctness seems to be getting replaced by disgust at what the very obvious truth of the matter is.
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ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
Also, you say he walked away from an NFL career...but he didn't. He walked away from his team, likely because he was demoted and couldn't handle it. All of a sudden now, when it looks like there is no payday ahead for him, he wants to come back and play football? His words in his interview (summarized).
He didn't walk away from his career. He looked for a shortcut, realized it probably wasn't going to be there, and now he wants to come start over again.
That's your boy.
He didn't walk away from his career. He looked for a shortcut, realized it probably wasn't going to be there, and now he wants to come start over again.
That's your boy.
KCitons
Footballguy
Yeah, NFL players should be tough. Would you say that Jovan Belcher was tougher or weaker than Jonathan Martin? Do you approve of the way Belcher handled his situation?
Why are people surprised when someone shoots up a school or movie theater, but expect someone else to suck it up and endure? People are people, regardless of profession.
Why are people surprised when someone shoots up a school or movie theater, but expect someone else to suck it up and endure? People are people, regardless of profession.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
Now you are comparing your boy to a suicidal murderer, and asking me to do the same?
I am surprised when someone shoots innocent people, and I do expect others to suck it up and endure. I guess you don't?
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
The last time you asked me a sincere question, I gave you a real answer and prompted you with a similar question. You then called me a troll. I'll quote one of our greatest Presidents: Fool me can't get fooled again.
Todem
Footballguy
Was waiting for this thread to pop up again after the Martina interview.
Oh yes.....the truth is really going to come out and prove...this is really a non-story.
2 things are quite clear
1) Martina can't hack the NFL, is a lousy LT/RT and does not belong in the league.
2) Incognito is a complete bafoon, bonehead and although he will play again....I am glad he is not going to play for the Miami Dolphins. He is a moron and had no place being put into a leadership role.......another glaring example of why this coaching staff should have been fired as well.
Other than those 2 points.....who ####### cares about this anymore. It is slowly but surely playing out almost exactly to what I and dozens of writers and people who follow the Dolphins thought.
Non-story.
Jonathan Martin needs to just.....go away. If you read Armando's artilce Chuck posted.....this pretty much has been the concensus down here from the very start.
Oh yes.....the truth is really going to come out and prove...this is really a non-story.
2 things are quite clear
1) Martina can't hack the NFL, is a lousy LT/RT and does not belong in the league.
2) Incognito is a complete bafoon, bonehead and although he will play again....I am glad he is not going to play for the Miami Dolphins. He is a moron and had no place being put into a leadership role.......another glaring example of why this coaching staff should have been fired as well.
Other than those 2 points.....who ####### cares about this anymore. It is slowly but surely playing out almost exactly to what I and dozens of writers and people who follow the Dolphins thought.
Non-story.
Jonathan Martin needs to just.....go away. If you read Armando's artilce Chuck posted.....this pretty much has been the concensus down here from the very start.
KCitons
Footballguy
This is why you don't understand my stance on this situation. It's not normal for an NFL player to walk out on his team or NFL career. There has to be a reason. Whether it's real or perceived. Your solution was to just toughen up and deal with it. He's an NFL player.
If Martin would have stayed, is it so unreasonable to think that he could snap and become a suicidal murderer? Looking back, do you say that Belcher should have gotten help for his situation? Or that he should have stepped away from football? It's not until you reach the worst case scenario, that you say, he should have done things differently.
From day one, I have supported Martin from a "wait and see" point of view. Some of you have labeled him already.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
That makes more sense now.
My solution would likely have involved one of the following:
1. Toughen up and deal with it.
2. Discuss it with my teammates and coaches and try to resolve the problem like a mature adult.
2. Retire and go away. Especially if I were a Stanford graduate with wealthy parents and connections.
It would not have included; throwing a lunchroom hissy fit, making up BS accusations about adult bullying, using text messages as my evidence which ultimately show me to be just as guilty as the man I am accusing, hiring a lawyer to defend my BS position, destroying another man's career, and impacting my teammates in a very negative way.
From what I can tell, you seem just fine with him having done all of the above, since he is a "victim". We differ there. No doubt.
Is it better than opening fire on innocent people? Of course. Is it acceptable adult behavior? Not even close.
ETA: You say there has to be a reason. I submit that the reason is his demotion to RT, and impending demotion to the bench. Seems like some evidence is out there supporting that position. If I believe that to be the case, is it unreasonable for me to feel the way I do about your boy? Even though he is a "victim"?
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KCitons
Footballguy
Prepare yourself Chuck, I'm going to give you a compliment. Your choices are fine, but that is because you are a mentally stable person. I'm not saying Martin is crazy, but his actions at least warrant concern. The cause of his actions will warrant ownership and punishment.
Somehow, you think when a person snaps, that they choose how they react. Some throw food trays and walk away, others pick up guns and exact revenge. (yes, I know these are opposite extremes) Point is, you are assuming Martin is making decisions the same way a mentally stable person would.
Regardless, if Martin has developed a mental issue, (or if he had a pre-existing mental condition) that was brought on by the Dolphins locker room, then there is a cause and an effect. Someone, either Goodell or the courts, will have to determine if the Dolphins locker room should be held to reasonable standards as any other work place.
In the end, what do you gain by telling a mentally unstable person to toughen up? It never works and usually ends badly.
Todem
Footballguy
Yeah......because this would lead Martin to shooting up a school?
WTF are you talking about? Belcher was deeply disturbed. You have to be seriously disturbed to take another persons life as well as your own.
If some verbal abuse is going to drive you to the edge of murder/suicide......you have got serious deep issues.
People are people? No they are not.
They're rationale, normal people who are mentally strong, can handle adversity and overcome stressful situations, as well as stand up for themselves before resolving to more extreme measures like lawsuits.....and then we have the weak, mentally instable people who go out and commit unimaginable acts of violence.....but let's blame society for people going into schools and murdering children. Let's blame society for Murder/Suicides of wives and children..... let's blame society for Jonathan Martin running to a lawyer to claim workplace harrasment in an NFL locker room! WTF are you talking about.
Martin is not one of those crazed mentally instable persons........he is a great actor. And if he indeed has some mental issues....then please go get some help. But placing the blame of his professional failures on his teammates......WEAK, cowardly and so easy to see and detect at this point.
Give me a break KC....come on man!!!
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KCitons
Footballguy
Yep, you only see the end result. Do you ever stop to think what brought the shooters to that point in their life as to commit such horrible acts?
Was is weakness? or was it something else. The fact that you see someone like Martin react in a totally irrational manner, and call him wuss, is why mental health issues will be a difficult thing to fix in this country.
How do you know his intentions, his reasoning, or his mental state?
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
If he has mental problems, then why are he and his lawyers not disclosing that, but instead are making claims that would indicate that other parties are at fault, rather than Martin's condition - whatever it may be?
I personally don't deny or dispute that there may be mental illness involved here. I think it is likely. However, if so, that should have been disclosed before a person's career was potentially ended over this, and a team and league were dragged through a media mud-storm. If he is mentally ill, then he and his attorneys have all acted extremely irresponsibly. My guess would be in an attempt to argue that being called names led to the mental illness, which would make him mentally weak, as many here have asserted all along. Does not make your "victim" any less guilty in my opinion. Just makes me feel a little bit more sorry for him.
Todem
Footballguy
So tell me.....what have we found out about the nutbar kid who went into an elementary school and murdered inncocent children.
Go talk to those parents and tell them...."well you don't understand...he was bullied and sexually abused for years so his only way to free his rage and depresson was to murder your child in cold blood.
Again.....WTF are you seriously talking about. rational sane people regardless of how much stress they are under....do not rationalize murdering inncoent children.
KCitons
Footballguy
Todem, I'm talking about showing a little patience. Not calling someone a wuss or claiming they should be tough enough to handle things, just because they are an NFL player. People are people. Jovan Belcher proved this. Just because you have money and fame, doesn't mean you can't have mental issues.
I'm not rationalizing killing anyone. I'm simply making the point that Martin made a claim of being a victim. While some chose to blame him and call him names. Simply put, someone with mental issues is not in full control of what they say and what they do.
As far as Martin's lawyer, it's not difficult to find a lawyer willing to take an NFL player's money. Regardless of claims.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
Ultimately, he is his lawyer's boss. His lawyer works for him. He and whoever is advising him get to say what direction this goes.
Assuming that there is mental illness, are you OK with them going in the direction that they have chosen? I assume no, since that is really the only rational answer.
So, then assuming there is not mental illness involved, then we have a normal mentally healthy guy quitting on his team seemingly because he was called names. Are you OK with that?
If not (assuming rational thought again), then in what situation are you OK with the direction that Jonathan Martin has taken this thing?
KCitons
Footballguy
Todem
Footballguy
Fair enough.
But observing Martin the player since his rookie season.....it was apparent to many writers and fans he was soft on the field. And apparently he is off the field. So this has been stirring since he got here. It was not an all of a sudden occurance. He has struggled since day one of his NFL career.
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KCitons
Footballguy
Yes, but now you are talking about cause and effect. Once the Wells report comes out, I have a feeling this will be the crux of the any lawsuit. (depending on what happens to Martin) If a lawsuit is filed.
By this I believe the Martin will be claim that the Dolphins organization or Richie may have been what caused him to regress as a player. This is were the NFL is going to be taken to task on things like the NFL draft and how they handle things in the future. If you gloss over the Martin case and something happens in the future, victims can claim that the NFL chose to ignore a problem. If the NFL says that Richie and the Dolphins are to blame, then Martin has a case to either play again, or be compensated.
Would Martin have been as bad if he was drafted by another NFL team. Who knows, but that could be part of any legal argument.
Again, this is my speculation. We still don't know what Martin's end-game is. He did mention that he wants to play in the NFL again. It may be his belief that the Dolphins locker room is toxic and it was the cause for his poor play.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
Addressing all of your bolded statements in order:
His lawyer can steer all he wants, but ultimately it is his decision. Here we go blaming others for his actions again.
What direction have they gone? They may have ended another player's career, or cost him a boatload of free agent money. They put a team and league under the microscope. May have gotten a GM fired. Added to the misery that Dolphins fans have experienced for real reasons for the past 40 years. All fine if there was really a justifiable reason. Mental illness is not one. Not a good one at least. If you are mentally ill, get treated. Don't hire a lawyer. Being hurt by being called names is not a good reason either. So what good reason did Martin have for taking this situation in the direction he has taken it?
Throwing his hissy fit was either weak, crazy, or part of a plan. None of those make the direction Martin has taken this since then justifiable.
We have pumped the brakes and listened to Martin. I still have not heard a thing that has been said by his side that would change anything I have said so far.
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
KCitons
Footballguy
Sorry you feel that way Chuck. This is the tolerance and patience that I spoke of. I get it, your a Dolphins fan. Martin had a negative effect on your team. (or so it appeared when this all started) You have no interest in Martin's mental state of mind.
KCitons
Footballguy
Is there any more? Did it say that the union asked Martin to participate? Did Martin refuse?
this seems like an incomplete statement
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
Its a tweet. You have character limits.
And regarding you once again trying to paint me as some insensitive creep...Also a tired (and transparent) defense mechanism on your part...
My feelings about Martin have nothing to do with the fact that I am a Dolphins fan. It only has to do with why I care enough to discuss it. My feelings about Martin are based upon my common sense. Ask me how I feel about any other negative statement about my pathetic team if you want to know how I feel about the Dolphins. You may be surprised. I despise the team, and organization. But in this case, I feel it is all a pile of crap.
I will again humor you and address what you have bolded and weakly attempted to use as evidence that I am the "knuckledragger" that you seem so desperately to want me to be:
1. Mental illness is not a free pass to do whatever you want, and blame your disease. If you are mentally ill, get treatment. Don't try to destroy a person and a franchise and blame them.
2. Throwing his hissy fit was in fact either weak, the result of mental illness, or part of a plan. Is there another option I am missing? Being called names makes that OK in your book? Why did you bold that?
3. We did pump the brakes on this. There hasn't been a post on here for weeks, then your boy comes out with some lame interview that in the end, probably highlighted the BSitude of this whole thing even more than when he was remaining silent. Why is this bolded?
4. You say I have no interest in Martin's state of mind. How could you possibly be so all-knowing as to make this statement about someone you don't even know? I have plenty of interest in his state of mind. I suspect that it isn't pretty, which will explain (but not excuse) the way he has handled his career thus far. You may want to lay off on telling others what they think. Especially when it relates to a person you don't know, and you are completely wrong.
KCitons
Footballguy
Again, you're trying to tell an irrational person to act rationally. Isn't that ridiculous in and of itself?
You keep missing the point. You as a person, and a Dolphins fan, wanted Martin to handle his mental problem in a sane manner. Hate to break it to you, but I think things could have gone off a lot worse. (see Jovan Belcher) If Martin had showed up one day and shot up the cafeteria, would you then say, he should have just walked away? Or done anything but resort to violence? It sounds like your only options for him, were ones that didn't disrupt your team. I hate to break it to you, but there is more to life than the NFL.
Again, we don't know what Martin's mental state is, I mentioned already that he could be bipolar. But we don't know. What could have caused him to reach this state of mind? Again, we don't know. But it could be interesting to see what the battery of tests at the NFL combine showed, as compared to two years inside the Dolphins locker room.
So, does this give anyone the right to call him names or question his toughness? In case you aren't clear, mental illness is a disease. Just like cancer or ALS. Do you blame victims of those diseases for their actions?
BTW, you wanted the GM fired before the Martin situation. So, you can't really blame one person for his firing. But, Ireland could be a part of the Martin problem. Perhaps he got what he deserved. We just won't know until all the reports are out.
You keep missing the point. You as a person, and a Dolphins fan, wanted Martin to handle his mental problem in a sane manner. Hate to break it to you, but I think things could have gone off a lot worse. (see Jovan Belcher) If Martin had showed up one day and shot up the cafeteria, would you then say, he should have just walked away? Or done anything but resort to violence? It sounds like your only options for him, were ones that didn't disrupt your team. I hate to break it to you, but there is more to life than the NFL.
Again, we don't know what Martin's mental state is, I mentioned already that he could be bipolar. But we don't know. What could have caused him to reach this state of mind? Again, we don't know. But it could be interesting to see what the battery of tests at the NFL combine showed, as compared to two years inside the Dolphins locker room.
So, does this give anyone the right to call him names or question his toughness? In case you aren't clear, mental illness is a disease. Just like cancer or ALS. Do you blame victims of those diseases for their actions?
BTW, you wanted the GM fired before the Martin situation. So, you can't really blame one person for his firing. But, Ireland could be a part of the Martin problem. Perhaps he got what he deserved. We just won't know until all the reports are out.
