Dolphin Players bullied Jonathan Martin, Richie Incognito SUSPENDED (1 Viewer)

[KCitons]

I'm not a fan of MTS, or his work in this thread. Even though we may share similar opinions on the Martin situation, his methods are not always the most constructive.

Chuck, you and I have gone back and forth for months. I don't see much of a change in the way you view this situation. Go back and reread your first few posts. As things progressed, you always included the caveat that your opinion could change once the facts are presented.

We now have the facts. But, nothing has changed. You accuse others of having blinders on, but can't see the hypocrisy of your own statements. The will to be correct, even in small part, continues to drive you.

This is a post you made back in November

I know I will get lambasted by many for saying this, and probably be told that people feel sorry for my kids, but...

The hazing that has been reported thus far does not sound all that bad to me. The $15K is bad, but not worthy of walking out on your team. The "getting up from the table" BS just sounds like guys being guys. And the recent report that Martin did the exact same thing to Nate Garner (backup guard) the prior week puts a bigger question mark on all of this. You are going to do it to someone else, and then cry when they do it to you? Really? Then tell on them? Sounds like 3rd grade.

I am not saying that the "victim" is to blame here. I am just saying that based upon what I have read, the alleged hazing does not seem to justify someone quitting on their teammates in the middle of a semi-promising season. There is probably a lot that I dont know, ranging possibly from worse hazing, mental illness, or both. Just basing this on what I have read...thats all. So hold off on calling me a bad parent for now.

ETA - That was not directed at any poster in particular - just the mentality of those getting high up on their soap boxes claiming that Martin is unquestionably right in all of this, and anyone questioning that point of view is a moronic thug.

And now today's post

This is interesting, and may explain some of the disconnect that is apparent in this thread.

I live in the DC Metro area, in a middle class suburb in between DC and Baltimore. Where I live, the N word is thrown around often, by people of all colors. The word is mostly used completely out of context per the dictionary. "My N-word", is used similarly to: "my man", "my brother", "dude", "my homie", "my friend". Its pretty common. The word still shocks me when I hear it because of what it has meant to society for most of my life, but in all honesty, the word has softened a bit over the years as it has made its way into the every day vernacular of so many people, and not in a negative way.

I have a 14 year old daughter. I cant believe I have to say this in a thread where people are so aggressively defending bullying, but please refrain from any negative comments about my daughter in this thread, as that will be very offensive. Negative comments about my son have already been made by people who dont even know me or him, so I do feel that this is necessary to say in this thread, with these particular regular posters. Anyway, my 14 year old daughter who is a very good kid uses the N word sometimes in my home. She uses it in a positive way - "He is my N-word" for example when referring to a good friend. I hate it, and she knows it. She does not use it when speaking to me, but I hear her and her friends (of white, and African American race) use it with eachother all the time. To them, the word is not what it is to many of us.

That said, She and I both know that she would be pushing her luck using the word outside of her own comfort zone, even though she does not mean it in a negative way. She is caucasian, and caucasians cannot use that word in public. However, if she were African American, there would be a different standard. There is a different standard. At least where I live.

You and I have simply been exposed to different experiences with the word. I wish I could make the claim that you have made above, but my experiences are simply different.

You were the first to bring your kids into this thread, and continue to use them as an example to prove your point.

As a parent, I think it's time to let the football forums and the NFL take care of themselves. Instead, put that energy into your kids.

 

[proninja]

Definitions for the N word in the dictionary. Check out number 2 and 3. The term is not only meant in a disparaging way toward African Americans. At least not by definition. So why are African Americans given a pass to use it, but others are not?

There's not a single African-American person I know who I've ever heard using the N-word (except in an academic linguistic context). Saying "blacks get a pass to use it" when the people who get a pass to use it are musicians, is like saying "white girls get a pass to wear a plastic bra and hot pants and twerk Robin Thicke" because Miley Cyrus did it.

This is interesting, and may explain some of the disconnect that is apparent in this thread.

I live in the DC Metro area, in a middle class suburb in between DC and Baltimore. Where I live, the N word is thrown around often, by people of all colors. The word is mostly used completely out of context per the dictionary. "My N-word", is used similarly to: "my man", "my brother", "dude", "my homie", "my friend". Its pretty common. The word still shocks me when I hear it because of what it has meant to society for most of my life, but in all honesty, the word has softened a bit over the years as it has made its way into the every day vernacular of so many people, and not in a negative way.

I have a 14 year old daughter. I cant believe I have to say this in a thread where people are so aggressively defending bullying, but please refrain from any negative comments about my daughter in this thread, as that will be very offensive. Negative comments about my son have already been made by people who dont even know me or him, so I do feel that this is necessary to say in this thread, with these particular regular posters. Anyway, my 14 year old daughter who is a very good kid uses the N word sometimes in my home. She uses it in a positive way - "He is my N-word" for example when referring to a good friend. I hate it, and she knows it. She does not use it when speaking to me, but I hear her and her friends (of white, and African American race) use it with eachother all the time. To them, the word is not what it is to many of us.

That said, She and I both know that she would be pushing her luck using the word outside of her own comfort zone, even though she does not mean it in a negative way. She is caucasian, and caucasians cannot use that word in public. However, if she were African American, there would be a different standard. There is a different standard. At least where I live.

You and I have simply been exposed to different experiences with the word. I wish I could make the claim that you have made above, but my experiences are simply different.

A video rendition

 

[ChuckLiddell]

I'm not a fan of MTS, or his work in this thread. Even though we may share similar opinions on the Martin situation, his methods are not always the most constructive.

Chuck, you and I have gone back and forth for months. I don't see much of a change in the way you view this situation. Go back and reread your first few posts. As things progressed, you always included the caveat that your opinion could change once the facts are presented.

We now have the facts. But, nothing has changed. You accuse others of having blinders on, but can't see the hypocrisy of your own statements. The will to be correct, even in small part, continues to drive you.

This is a post you made back in November

I know I will get lambasted by many for saying this, and probably be told that people feel sorry for my kids, but...

The hazing that has been reported thus far does not sound all that bad to me. The $15K is bad, but not worthy of walking out on your team. The "getting up from the table" BS just sounds like guys being guys. And the recent report that Martin did the exact same thing to Nate Garner (backup guard) the prior week puts a bigger question mark on all of this. You are going to do it to someone else, and then cry when they do it to you? Really? Then tell on them? Sounds like 3rd grade.

I am not saying that the "victim" is to blame here. I am just saying that based upon what I have read, the alleged hazing does not seem to justify someone quitting on their teammates in the middle of a semi-promising season. There is probably a lot that I dont know, ranging possibly from worse hazing, mental illness, or both. Just basing this on what I have read...thats all. So hold off on calling me a bad parent for now.

ETA - That was not directed at any poster in particular - just the mentality of those getting high up on their soap boxes claiming that Martin is unquestionably right in all of this, and anyone questioning that point of view is a moronic thug.

And now today's post

This is interesting, and may explain some of the disconnect that is apparent in this thread.

I live in the DC Metro area, in a middle class suburb in between DC and Baltimore. Where I live, the N word is thrown around often, by people of all colors. The word is mostly used completely out of context per the dictionary. "My N-word", is used similarly to: "my man", "my brother", "dude", "my homie", "my friend". Its pretty common. The word still shocks me when I hear it because of what it has meant to society for most of my life, but in all honesty, the word has softened a bit over the years as it has made its way into the every day vernacular of so many people, and not in a negative way.

I have a 14 year old daughter. I cant believe I have to say this in a thread where people are so aggressively defending bullying, but please refrain from any negative comments about my daughter in this thread, as that will be very offensive. Negative comments about my son have already been made by people who dont even know me or him, so I do feel that this is necessary to say in this thread, with these particular regular posters. Anyway, my 14 year old daughter who is a very good kid uses the N word sometimes in my home. She uses it in a positive way - "He is my N-word" for example when referring to a good friend. I hate it, and she knows it. She does not use it when speaking to me, but I hear her and her friends (of white, and African American race) use it with eachother all the time. To them, the word is not what it is to many of us.

That said, She and I both know that she would be pushing her luck using the word outside of her own comfort zone, even though she does not mean it in a negative way. She is caucasian, and caucasians cannot use that word in public. However, if she were African American, there would be a different standard. There is a different standard. At least where I live.

You and I have simply been exposed to different experiences with the word. I wish I could make the claim that you have made above, but my experiences are simply different.

You were the first to bring your kids into this thread, and continue to use them as an example to prove your point.

As a parent, I think it's time to let the football forums and the NFL take care of themselves. Instead, put that energy into your kids.

I may be misinterpreting this, so dont take this as a defensive response. I want to understand better what you are saying here before I respond.

Is the implication of this post that I am a neglectful parent because I post on this message board? Or instead are you simply implying that this is kind of a dead issue, and to back to my real life. If the latter, I wholeheartedly agree.

For the record, I dont believe I was the first to bring my kids onto this message board. I could be mistaken, but I believe I was told that I was the type of parent who would promote extreme violence against innocent people from his son before I made that first post regarding my parenting. Pretty sure that statement was in response to that, but my timelines could be in error. Either way, under the bridge as far as I am concerned.

And for the record, you turned out to be dead on right about many of the things that you theorized in this thread, that I challenged you on. If I was offensive in some of my responses, you have my apologies.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

God I wish I would have known this stuff pages ago.

The disconnect is to far to even attempt to make sense of this.

Why do you think I stopped many pages ago? Eventually there won't be a disconnect. The number of people like you and Chuck are decreasing, even more quickly as time progresses. I'm thankful for that.

The worlds you and I live in are too far apart to even begin discussing let alone what you think me and Chuck are. I'm sure Chuck may continue on trying to find a middle ground or make sense to you but after reading your quotes above it is just impossible. We'll have to leave it at that.

You can leave it at that. It's pretty easy to see what you guys are about. I'll give you credit that you haven't said anything as racially ignorant as Chuck though. That's a positive.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

I'm not a fan of MTS, or his work in this thread. Even though we may share similar opinions on the Martin situation, his methods are not always the most constructive.

Chuck, you and I have gone back and forth for months. I don't see much of a change in the way you view this situation. Go back and reread your first few posts. As things progressed, you always included the caveat that your opinion could change once the facts are presented.

We now have the facts. But, nothing has changed. You accuse others of having blinders on, but can't see the hypocrisy of your own statements. The will to be correct, even in small part, continues to drive you.

This is a post you made back in November

I know I will get lambasted by many for saying this, and probably be told that people feel sorry for my kids, but...

The hazing that has been reported thus far does not sound all that bad to me. The $15K is bad, but not worthy of walking out on your team. The "getting up from the table" BS just sounds like guys being guys. And the recent report that Martin did the exact same thing to Nate Garner (backup guard) the prior week puts a bigger question mark on all of this. You are going to do it to someone else, and then cry when they do it to you? Really? Then tell on them? Sounds like 3rd grade.

I am not saying that the "victim" is to blame here. I am just saying that based upon what I have read, the alleged hazing does not seem to justify someone quitting on their teammates in the middle of a semi-promising season. There is probably a lot that I dont know, ranging possibly from worse hazing, mental illness, or both. Just basing this on what I have read...thats all. So hold off on calling me a bad parent for now.

ETA - That was not directed at any poster in particular - just the mentality of those getting high up on their soap boxes claiming that Martin is unquestionably right in all of this, and anyone questioning that point of view is a moronic thug.

And now today's post

This is interesting, and may explain some of the disconnect that is apparent in this thread.

I live in the DC Metro area, in a middle class suburb in between DC and Baltimore. Where I live, the N word is thrown around often, by people of all colors. The word is mostly used completely out of context per the dictionary. "My N-word", is used similarly to: "my man", "my brother", "dude", "my homie", "my friend". Its pretty common. The word still shocks me when I hear it because of what it has meant to society for most of my life, but in all honesty, the word has softened a bit over the years as it has made its way into the every day vernacular of so many people, and not in a negative way.

I have a 14 year old daughter. I cant believe I have to say this in a thread where people are so aggressively defending bullying, but please refrain from any negative comments about my daughter in this thread, as that will be very offensive. Negative comments about my son have already been made by people who dont even know me or him, so I do feel that this is necessary to say in this thread, with these particular regular posters. Anyway, my 14 year old daughter who is a very good kid uses the N word sometimes in my home. She uses it in a positive way - "He is my N-word" for example when referring to a good friend. I hate it, and she knows it. She does not use it when speaking to me, but I hear her and her friends (of white, and African American race) use it with eachother all the time. To them, the word is not what it is to many of us.

That said, She and I both know that she would be pushing her luck using the word outside of her own comfort zone, even though she does not mean it in a negative way. She is caucasian, and caucasians cannot use that word in public. However, if she were African American, there would be a different standard. There is a different standard. At least where I live.

You and I have simply been exposed to different experiences with the word. I wish I could make the claim that you have made above, but my experiences are simply different.

You were the first to bring your kids into this thread, and continue to use them as an example to prove your point.

As a parent, I think it's time to let the football forums and the NFL take care of themselves. Instead, put that energy into your kids.

By the way, your bolded statement about how nothing in my opinion has changed is false.

The news about the athletic trainer changed my view dramatically about how the locker room culture in Miami was. Unacceptable, as I have said on a number of occasions since the Wells report came out.

The remarks about Martins mother and sister - unacceptable - again repeating myself.

My opinion on Martin has not changed a whole lot, but some. I think he clearly fabricated a story about physical abuse to use to his advantage, and if he can interpret what happened at that party to be physical abuse, I question his evaluation of mental abuse - at least to the extent that he is alleging. I do think what went on with the 3 D-bags was over and above normal locker room culture, but not as far over and above as I suspect others think it was.

I also clearly have an opinion on his hypocrisy in bullying others. That has changed since the Wells report. I find it to be worse now than I did before.

I think Martin has deep seeded mental issues. Clearly. But I have been noting that as a possibility all along. It does not change the statement that he does not have the mentality to play LT in the NFL.

I agree with you completely that if he had been drafted by a team with a more nurturing environment, and nicer teammates, his career may have taken a completely different trajectory. I did not give that position credence until after the report.

We just have different opinions. In truth, that is the only reason this thread exists with 90+ pages. If we all agreed, this would have been a 10 post thread.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I live in the DC Metro area, in a middle class suburb in between DC and Baltimore. Where I live, the N word is thrown around often, by people of all colors. The word is mostly used completely out of context per the dictionary. "My N-word", is used similarly to: "my man", "my brother", "dude", "my homie", "my friend". Its pretty common. The word still shocks me when I hear it because of what it has meant to society for most of my life, but in all honesty, the word has softened a bit over the years as it has made its way into the every day vernacular of so many people, and not in a negative way.

No it isn't pretty common. That's a 100% fabrication.

Are you saying that the dialogue from The Wire was unrealistic? It was littered with N-bombs throughout.

I have a 14 year old daughter. I cant believe I have to say this in a thread where people are so aggressively defending bullying, but please refrain from any negative comments about my daughter in this thread, as that will be very offensive. Negative comments about my son have already been made by people who dont even know me or him, so I do feel that this is necessary to say in this thread, with these particular regular posters. Anyway, my 14 year old daughter who is a very good kid uses the N word sometimes in my home. She uses it in a positive way - "He is my N-word" for example when referring to a good friend. I hate it, and she knows it. She does not use it when speaking to me, but I hear her and her friends (of white, and African American race) use it with eachother all the time. To them, the word is not what it is to many of us.

It's shameful that you say that the word is used in a positive way. In fact, I find that to be a pretty disgusting statement by you.

Plenty of people have noted that the N-word is sometimes used with positive connotations. I think it's a mistake when white people try to get in on the act -- they should avoid using the word -- but there should be no real dispute about the fact that, in certain contexts, it is used as a synonym for 'friend.' I don't see how Mr. Liddell's acknowledgment of that fact is shameful or disgusting, but perhaps I'm misinterpreting your post.

 

[KCitons]

I live in the DC Metro area, in a middle class suburb in between DC and Baltimore. Where I live, the N word is thrown around often, by people of all colors. The word is mostly used completely out of context per the dictionary. "My N-word", is used similarly to: "my man", "my brother", "dude", "my homie", "my friend". Its pretty common. The word still shocks me when I hear it because of what it has meant to society for most of my life, but in all honesty, the word has softened a bit over the years as it has made its way into the every day vernacular of so many people, and not in a negative way.

No it isn't pretty common. That's a 100% fabrication.

Are you saying that the dialogue from The Wire was unrealistic? It was littered with N-bombs throughout.

I have a 14 year old daughter. I cant believe I have to say this in a thread where people are so aggressively defending bullying, but please refrain from any negative comments about my daughter in this thread, as that will be very offensive. Negative comments about my son have already been made by people who dont even know me or him, so I do feel that this is necessary to say in this thread, with these particular regular posters. Anyway, my 14 year old daughter who is a very good kid uses the N word sometimes in my home. She uses it in a positive way - "He is my N-word" for example when referring to a good friend. I hate it, and she knows it. She does not use it when speaking to me, but I hear her and her friends (of white, and African American race) use it with eachother all the time. To them, the word is not what it is to many of us.

It's shameful that you say that the word is used in a positive way. In fact, I find that to be a pretty disgusting statement by you.

Plenty of people have noted that the N-word is sometimes used with positive connotations. I think it's a mistake when white people try to get in on the act -- they should avoid using the word -- but there should be no real dispute about the fact that, in certain contexts, it is used as a synonym for 'friend.' I don't see how Mr. Liddell's acknowledgment of that fact is shameful or disgusting, but perhaps I'm misinterpreting your post.

Words can have different meanings depending on context. I rode an ### to the bottom of the Grand Canyon and I have a female dog, which is called a #####. Oddly enough, my friend **** Hertz is free post here any time he wants.

Taken by themselves, the term ###, ##### or **** are all just words. Why are some censored here?

Society conditioned us that the N word was wrong, regardless of context. Not because it had multiple definitions, but because the vast majority of time, it was used in a negative way. I'm OK with understanding the Etymology of a word. But, to think that it is now acceptable for a 14 year old use it, is a recipe for disaster.

The C-word is another word that has different origin. But, I dare you to say that word, in any context, in front of your significant other.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

But, to think that it is now acceptable for a 14 year old use it, is a recipe for disaster.

I don't think anybody is taking the position that it's a good idea for 14-year-old white girls to use the term, even when they intend a positive connotation. The issue that may be in some dispute, as I understand it, is whether a positive connotation is even possible. Some people, based on their own experience, may believe that it is not. Other people have heard the word used frequently, in some contexts, as a synonym for 'friend' or 'homie.' The latter usage, therefore -- whether or not it may be misguided -- is certainly possible.

 

[Stealthycat]

No it isn't pretty common. That's a 100% fabrication.

Watch black TV, black movie, listen to black music ............ the N word is exceptionally well used - very very often. you're ignorant if you think it isnt

 

[Neofight]

But, to think that it is now acceptable for a 14 year old use it, is a recipe for disaster.

I don't think anybody is taking the position that it's a good idea for 14-year-old white girls to use the term, even when they intend a positive connotation. The issue that may be in some dispute, as I understand it, is whether a positive connotation is even possible. Some people, based on their own experience, may believe that it is not. Other people have heard the word used frequently, in some contexts, as a synonym for 'friend' or 'homie.' The latter usage, therefore -- whether or not it may be misguided -- is certainly possible.

Are you sure about that?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

But, to think that it is now acceptable for a 14 year old use it, is a recipe for disaster.

I don't think anybody is taking the position that it's a good idea for 14-year-old white girls to use the term, even when they intend a positive connotation. The issue that may be in some dispute, as I understand it, is whether a positive connotation is even possible. Some people, based on their own experience, may believe that it is not. Other people have heard the word used frequently, in some contexts, as a synonym for 'friend' or 'homie.' The latter usage, therefore -- whether or not it may be misguided -- is certainly possible.

Are you sure about that?

Yes, I'm fairly sure. So far as I know, Chuck Liddell is the only one who mentioned a 14-year-old girl using the term, and he did so with disapproval.

Was there another mention by someone else that I missed?

 

[Neofight]

But, to think that it is now acceptable for a 14 year old use it, is a recipe for disaster.

I don't think anybody is taking the position that it's a good idea for 14-year-old white girls to use the term, even when they intend a positive connotation. The issue that may be in some dispute, as I understand it, is whether a positive connotation is even possible. Some people, based on their own experience, may believe that it is not. Other people have heard the word used frequently, in some contexts, as a synonym for 'friend' or 'homie.' The latter usage, therefore -- whether or not it may be misguided -- is certainly possible.

Are you sure about that?

Yes, I'm fairly sure. So far as I know, Chuck Liddell is the only one who mentioned a 14-year-old girl using the term, and he did so with disapproval.

Was there another mention by someone else that I missed?

Why is she still doing it if he disapproves?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

But, to think that it is now acceptable for a 14 year old use it, is a recipe for disaster.

I don't think anybody is taking the position that it's a good idea for 14-year-old white girls to use the term, even when they intend a positive connotation. The issue that may be in some dispute, as I understand it, is whether a positive connotation is even possible. Some people, based on their own experience, may believe that it is not. Other people have heard the word used frequently, in some contexts, as a synonym for 'friend' or 'homie.' The latter usage, therefore -- whether or not it may be misguided -- is certainly possible.

Are you sure about that?

Yes, I'm fairly sure. So far as I know, Chuck Liddell is the only one who mentioned a 14-year-old girl using the term, and he did so with disapproval.

Was there another mention by someone else that I missed?

Why is she still doing it if he disapproves?

That's the real mystery, isn't it? It's practically unheard of for teenage girls to do stuff their parents disapprove of. But there's a first time for everything, I guess.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

I live in the DC Metro area, in a middle class suburb in between DC and Baltimore. Where I live, the N word is thrown around often, by people of all colors. The word is mostly used completely out of context per the dictionary. "My N-word", is used similarly to: "my man", "my brother", "dude", "my homie", "my friend". Its pretty common. The word still shocks me when I hear it because of what it has meant to society for most of my life, but in all honesty, the word has softened a bit over the years as it has made its way into the every day vernacular of so many people, and not in a negative way.

No it isn't pretty common. That's a 100% fabrication.

Are you saying that the dialogue from The Wire was unrealistic? It was littered with N-bombs throughout.

The Wire. That's an old show. Is that one about an upper middle class family in suburbia? Sounds right. The one with Michael J Fox in it?

 

[Neofight]

But, to think that it is now acceptable for a 14 year old use it, is a recipe for disaster.

I don't think anybody is taking the position that it's a good idea for 14-year-old white girls to use the term, even when they intend a positive connotation. The issue that may be in some dispute, as I understand it, is whether a positive connotation is even possible. Some people, based on their own experience, may believe that it is not. Other people have heard the word used frequently, in some contexts, as a synonym for 'friend' or 'homie.' The latter usage, therefore -- whether or not it may be misguided -- is certainly possible.

Are you sure about that?

Yes, I'm fairly sure. So far as I know, Chuck Liddell is the only one who mentioned a 14-year-old girl using the term, and he did so with disapproval.

Was there another mention by someone else that I missed?

Why is she still doing it if he disapproves?

That's the real mystery, isn't it? It's practically unheard of for teenage girls to do stuff their parents disapprove of. But there's a first time for everything, I guess.

And a last time.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

But, to think that it is now acceptable for a 14 year old use it, is a recipe for disaster.

I don't think anybody is taking the position that it's a good idea for 14-year-old white girls to use the term, even when they intend a positive connotation. The issue that may be in some dispute, as I understand it, is whether a positive connotation is even possible. Some people, based on their own experience, may believe that it is not. Other people have heard the word used frequently, in some contexts, as a synonym for 'friend' or 'homie.' The latter usage, therefore -- whether or not it may be misguided -- is certainly possible.

Are you sure about that?

Yes, I'm fairly sure. So far as I know, Chuck Liddell is the only one who mentioned a 14-year-old girl using the term, and he did so with disapproval.

Was there another mention by someone else that I missed?

Why is she still doing it if he disapproves?

That's the real mystery, isn't it? It's practically unheard of for teenage girls to do stuff their parents disapprove of. But there's a first time for everything, I guess.

The same thing, over and over and over and over again? Sure. Those are the ones that end up dancing for a living.

Although I'm sure Chuckie has already hammered the report button, I wasn't talking about his daughter here. And I'm clearly talking about ballet dancing, since we all know that's what rebellious women like to do.

 

[Smack Tripper]

I live in the DC Metro area, in a middle class suburb in between DC and Baltimore. Where I live, the N word is thrown around often, by people of all colors. The word is mostly used completely out of context per the dictionary. "My N-word", is used similarly to: "my man", "my brother", "dude", "my homie", "my friend". Its pretty common. The word still shocks me when I hear it because of what it has meant to society for most of my life, but in all honesty, the word has softened a bit over the years as it has made its way into the every day vernacular of so many people, and not in a negative way.

No it isn't pretty common. That's a 100% fabrication.

Are you saying that the dialogue from The Wire was unrealistic? It was littered with N-bombs throughout.

The Wire. That's an old show. Is that one about an upper middle class family in suburbia? Sounds right. The one with Michael J Fox in it?

Dude I don't know what world you live in but I can assure you, you're totally lost on this point. I can't even fathom maintaining the position that it is a rarity.

Are you somehow mincing the "er" incarnation with the "a" version? I have heard people make this division before.

And to bring up a point earlier in the thread, if black players were using it amongst themselves and a player of another race overheard and was offended by the mere presence of the word, should the black players who took the rare step to using it, be disciplined?

 

[MoveToSkypager]

I live in the DC Metro area, in a middle class suburb in between DC and Baltimore. Where I live, the N word is thrown around often, by people of all colors. The word is mostly used completely out of context per the dictionary. "My N-word", is used similarly to: "my man", "my brother", "dude", "my homie", "my friend". Its pretty common. The word still shocks me when I hear it because of what it has meant to society for most of my life, but in all honesty, the word has softened a bit over the years as it has made its way into the every day vernacular of so many people, and not in a negative way.

No it isn't pretty common. That's a 100% fabrication.

Are you saying that the dialogue from The Wire was unrealistic? It was littered with N-bombs throughout.

The Wire. That's an old show. Is that one about an upper middle class family in suburbia? Sounds right. The one with Michael J Fox in it?

Dude I don't know what world you live in but I can assure you, you're totally lost on this point. I can't even fathom maintaining the position that it is a rarity.

Are you somehow mincing the "er" incarnation with the "a" version? I have heard people make this division before.

And to bring up a point earlier in the thread, if black players were using it amongst themselves and a player of another race overheard and was offended by the mere presence of the word, should the black players who took the rare step to using it, be disciplined?

You work in the film industry and you are asking me what world I live in?

Yeah.

 

[KCitons]

I'm not a fan of MTS, or his work in this thread. Even though we may share similar opinions on the Martin situation, his methods are not always the most constructive.

Chuck, you and I have gone back and forth for months. I don't see much of a change in the way you view this situation. Go back and reread your first few posts. As things progressed, you always included the caveat that your opinion could change once the facts are presented.

We now have the facts. But, nothing has changed. You accuse others of having blinders on, but can't see the hypocrisy of your own statements. The will to be correct, even in small part, continues to drive you.

This is a post you made back in November

I know I will get lambasted by many for saying this, and probably be told that people feel sorry for my kids, but...

The hazing that has been reported thus far does not sound all that bad to me. The $15K is bad, but not worthy of walking out on your team. The "getting up from the table" BS just sounds like guys being guys. And the recent report that Martin did the exact same thing to Nate Garner (backup guard) the prior week puts a bigger question mark on all of this. You are going to do it to someone else, and then cry when they do it to you? Really? Then tell on them? Sounds like 3rd grade.

I am not saying that the "victim" is to blame here. I am just saying that based upon what I have read, the alleged hazing does not seem to justify someone quitting on their teammates in the middle of a semi-promising season. There is probably a lot that I dont know, ranging possibly from worse hazing, mental illness, or both. Just basing this on what I have read...thats all. So hold off on calling me a bad parent for now.

ETA - That was not directed at any poster in particular - just the mentality of those getting high up on their soap boxes claiming that Martin is unquestionably right in all of this, and anyone questioning that point of view is a moronic thug.

And now today's post

This is interesting, and may explain some of the disconnect that is apparent in this thread.

I live in the DC Metro area, in a middle class suburb in between DC and Baltimore. Where I live, the N word is thrown around often, by people of all colors. The word is mostly used completely out of context per the dictionary. "My N-word", is used similarly to: "my man", "my brother", "dude", "my homie", "my friend". Its pretty common. The word still shocks me when I hear it because of what it has meant to society for most of my life, but in all honesty, the word has softened a bit over the years as it has made its way into the every day vernacular of so many people, and not in a negative way.

I have a 14 year old daughter. I cant believe I have to say this in a thread where people are so aggressively defending bullying, but please refrain from any negative comments about my daughter in this thread, as that will be very offensive. Negative comments about my son have already been made by people who dont even know me or him, so I do feel that this is necessary to say in this thread, with these particular regular posters. Anyway, my 14 year old daughter who is a very good kid uses the N word sometimes in my home. She uses it in a positive way - "He is my N-word" for example when referring to a good friend. I hate it, and she knows it. She does not use it when speaking to me, but I hear her and her friends (of white, and African American race) use it with eachother all the time. To them, the word is not what it is to many of us.

That said, She and I both know that she would be pushing her luck using the word outside of her own comfort zone, even though she does not mean it in a negative way. She is caucasian, and caucasians cannot use that word in public. However, if she were African American, there would be a different standard. There is a different standard. At least where I live.

You and I have simply been exposed to different experiences with the word. I wish I could make the claim that you have made above, but my experiences are simply different.

You were the first to bring your kids into this thread, and continue to use them as an example to prove your point.

As a parent, I think it's time to let the football forums and the NFL take care of themselves. Instead, put that energy into your kids.

I may be misinterpreting this, so dont take this as a defensive response. I want to understand better what you are saying here before I respond.

Is the implication of this post that I am a neglectful parent because I post on this message board? Or instead are you simply implying that this is kind of a dead issue, and to back to my real life. If the latter, I wholeheartedly agree.

For the record, I dont believe I was the first to bring my kids onto this message board. I could be mistaken, but I believe I was told that I was the type of parent who would promote extreme violence against innocent people from his son before I made that first post regarding my parenting. Pretty sure that statement was in response to that, but my timelines could be in error. Either way, under the bridge as far as I am concerned.

And for the record, you turned out to be dead on right about many of the things that you theorized in this thread, that I challenged you on. If I was offensive in some of my responses, you have my apologies.

Chuck, sorry for any confusion. I'm not saying you are a neglectful parent. What I am saying, is instead of discussing the N word with people on a random message board, perhaps that time could be used to discuss the use of the N word with your daughter.

 

[KCitons]

I mentioned earlier that I have a nephew that is half African-American. I've had conversations with him about the use of the N word and how it effects him when he hears it. It doesn't matter how you say, for him it's unacceptable. Would it be wrong if I was offended by the word? Even though I'm white?

 

[Tango]

Interesting. I guess that depends on who you ask. The last tweet I saw was from Breer and he said this:

@AlbertBreer: I've gone thru pretty much all the facts in the Wells report, and it's really hard -- if you've been around the NFL -- to be stunned by it.

I saw that tweet too. Martin himself said that he has been the target of bullies for most of his life. So, to put total blame on the Dolphins organization is wrong. But, where do you rank the Dolphin's locker room on the scale of best to worst? If it's determined to be the worst, an argument could be made that the draft forces a player to go to a team that is not in their best interest.

Yup.

(1) Am I missing something or is Incognito representative of 25%-50% of NFL linemen in his maturity/approach-to-life, etc. and he got caught up with a guy with mucho problems and didnt really have the capacity to be sensitive to it. The stuff from the leaks wasnt as bad as Martin's side made it out. It doesnt seem Incognito is an exception to the rule in the NFL. he's no saint either of course.

(2) Did the NFL mention that Martin or someone from the Martin side will be disciplined for the leaks?

 

[Kalamazoo]

I mentioned earlier that I have a nephew that is half African-American. I've had conversations with him about the use of the N word and how it effects him when he hears it. It doesn't matter how you say, for him it's unacceptable. Would it be wrong if I was offended by the word? Even though I'm white?

Absolutely not in my opinion. I hate hearing or seeing it used outside of an academic or commentary context. And I *really* cringed when I read that Chuck's daughter uses it! (Not a slam against him or her...just that it was *very* unexpected -- if it's ok with her and her friends, then who am I to judge. I don't think I'd want to be around when they were talking, though.)

I think it's also OK to be offended by the many other nasty racial and ethnic epithets out there as well. (Although few are as bad as the n-word to my ears.)

 

[Smack Tripper]

I live in the DC Metro area, in a middle class suburb in between DC and Baltimore. Where I live, the N word is thrown around often, by people of all colors. The word is mostly used completely out of context per the dictionary. "My N-word", is used similarly to: "my man", "my brother", "dude", "my homie", "my friend". Its pretty common. The word still shocks me when I hear it because of what it has meant to society for most of my life, but in all honesty, the word has softened a bit over the years as it has made its way into the every day vernacular of so many people, and not in a negative way.

No it isn't pretty common. That's a 100% fabrication.

Are you saying that the dialogue from The Wire was unrealistic? It was littered with N-bombs throughout.

The Wire. That's an old show. Is that one about an upper middle class family in suburbia? Sounds right. The one with Michael J Fox in it?

Dude I don't know what world you live in but I can assure you, you're totally lost on this point. I can't even fathom maintaining the position that it is a rarity.

Are you somehow mincing the "er" incarnation with the "a" version? I have heard people make this division before.

And to bring up a point earlier in the thread, if black players were using it amongst themselves and a player of another race overheard and was offended by the mere presence of the word, should the black players who took the rare step to using it, be disciplined?

You work in the film industry and you are asking me what world I live in?Yeah.

I'm going to guess I go more places, have lived more places and met more people across a cross section of life than many on the board. Perhaps even you. Apparently I'm the only one of the two of us who had any interaction with black people.

 

[Kalamazoo]

Interesting. I guess that depends on who you ask. The last tweet I saw was from Breer and he said this:

@AlbertBreer: I've gone thru pretty much all the facts in the Wells report, and it's really hard -- if you've been around the NFL -- to be stunned by it.

I saw that tweet too. Martin himself said that he has been the target of bullies for most of his life. So, to put total blame on the Dolphins organization is wrong. But, where do you rank the Dolphin's locker room on the scale of best to worst? If it's determined to be the worst, an argument could be made that the draft forces a player to go to a team that is not in their best interest.

Yup.

(1) Am I missing something or is Incognito representative of 25%-50% of NFL linemen in his maturity/approach-to-life, etc. and he got caught up with a guy with mucho problems and didnt really have the capacity to be sensitive to it. The stuff from the leaks wasnt as bad as Martin's side made it out. It doesnt seem Incognito is an exception to the rule in the NFL. he's no saint either of course.

(2) Did the NFL mention that Martin or someone from the Martin side will be disciplined for the leaks?

Was this in reply to my post? If so:

(1) I am not sure what you mean here.

(2) What leaks? The text messages that came out? First, I thought that they came from Richie (although I'm not sure about that), and second, they were in a sense his to disseminate. I wouldn't call them "leaks". This wasn't a criminal investigation and there was nothing confidential about the them. Or maybe you are talking about something else?

 

[Tango]

Interesting. I guess that depends on who you ask. The last tweet I saw was from Breer and he said this:

@AlbertBreer: I've gone thru pretty much all the facts in the Wells report, and it's really hard -- if you've been around the NFL -- to be stunned by it.

I saw that tweet too. Martin himself said that he has been the target of bullies for most of his life. So, to put total blame on the Dolphins organization is wrong. But, where do you rank the Dolphin's locker room on the scale of best to worst? If it's determined to be the worst, an argument could be made that the draft forces a player to go to a team that is not in their best interest.

Yup.

(1) Am I missing something or is Incognito representative of 25%-50% of NFL linemen in his maturity/approach-to-life, etc. and he got caught up with a guy with mucho problems and didnt really have the capacity to be sensitive to it. The stuff from the leaks wasnt as bad as Martin's side made it out. It doesnt seem Incognito is an exception to the rule in the NFL. he's no saint either of course.

(2) Did the NFL mention that Martin or someone from the Martin side will be disciplined for the leaks?

Was this in reply to my post? If so:

(1) I am not sure what you mean here.

(2) What leaks? The text messages that came out? First, I thought that they came from Richie (although I'm not sure about that), and second, they were in a sense his to disseminate. I wouldn't call them "leaks". This wasn't a criminal investigation and there was nothing confidential about the them. Or maybe you are talking about something else?

(1) Incognito seems to not be a typical NFL lineman, but not atypical either. This could have happened to dozens upon dozens of other NFL players who have the same meat-head attitude, just that the others were luck enough not get crossed-up with someone who has serious mental problems and has a legal-camp larger than OJ.

(2) The leaks were inflammatory and told one-side of a story that clearly had another side or two. To defend that by saying that Martin's camp "has a right" to leak misleading information is not acceptable if you want to claim Martin to be a victim. Two wrongs do not make a right. He released voicemails seemingly showing a crazy Incognito harassing him in a sheltered way, when Martin himself laughed about them with various teammates and Hartline called him out on it. Then there's the whole leak of the conversation between Martin's agent and Ireland that was in the headlines for a week. That leak probably came from Martin's agent (did the NFL get to the bottom of it?) and was inherently biased and potentially highly misleading. Same is true with the texts. Martin cannot spin and/or be deceptive on on-hand and then claim he's an innocent victim on the other.

 

[RBM]

Vernon Davis says Incognito is a "great guy"

 

[Kalamazoo]

Interesting. I guess that depends on who you ask. The last tweet I saw was from Breer and he said this:

@AlbertBreer: I've gone thru pretty much all the facts in the Wells report, and it's really hard -- if you've been around the NFL -- to be stunned by it.

I saw that tweet too. Martin himself said that he has been the target of bullies for most of his life. So, to put total blame on the Dolphins organization is wrong. But, where do you rank the Dolphin's locker room on the scale of best to worst? If it's determined to be the worst, an argument could be made that the draft forces a player to go to a team that is not in their best interest.

Yup.

(1) Am I missing something or is Incognito representative of 25%-50% of NFL linemen in his maturity/approach-to-life, etc. and he got caught up with a guy with mucho problems and didnt really have the capacity to be sensitive to it. The stuff from the leaks wasnt as bad as Martin's side made it out. It doesnt seem Incognito is an exception to the rule in the NFL. he's no saint either of course.

(2) Did the NFL mention that Martin or someone from the Martin side will be disciplined for the leaks?

Was this in reply to my post? If so:

(1) I am not sure what you mean here.

(2) What leaks? The text messages that came out? First, I thought that they came from Richie (although I'm not sure about that), and second, they were in a sense his to disseminate. I wouldn't call them "leaks". This wasn't a criminal investigation and there was nothing confidential about the them. Or maybe you are talking about something else?

(1) Incognito seems to not be a typical NFL lineman, but not atypical either. This could have happened to dozens upon dozens of other NFL players who have the same meat-head attitude, just that the others were luck enough not get crossed-up with someone who has serious mental problems and has a legal-camp larger than OJ.

(2) The leaks were inflammatory and told one-side of a story that clearly had another side or two. To defend that by saying that Martin's camp "has a right" to leak misleading information is not acceptable if you want to claim Martin to be a victim. Two wrongs do not make a right. He released voicemails seemingly showing a crazy Incognito harassing him in a sheltered way, when Martin himself laughed about them with various teammates and Hartline called him out on it. Then there's the whole leak of the conversation between Martin's agent and Ireland that was in the headlines for a week. That leak probably came from Martin's agent (did the NFL get to the bottom of it?) and was inherently biased and potentially highly misleading. Same is true with the texts. Martin cannot spin and/or be deceptive on on-hand and then claim he's an innocent victim on the other.

Tango -- A serious question: Have you read the report?

(2) Which "leaks" are you referring to? The information that was disseminated at the beginning of the debacle? If so, information was given to the media by both sides. I guess "misleading" is somewhat in the eye of the beholder, but all of the sides (Dolphins, Martin, Incognito, etc.) had an interesting in trying to control the spin. That's pretty normal. Richie has certainly publicized many things himself, including announcing to the world on Twitter that Martin had been suicidal.

Why should the NFL be interested in getting to the bottom of who said what in the conversation between Ireland and the agent? I don't think any rules or laws were broken... What was there to investigate? (BTW, this issue was touched upon in the report.)

 

[fatness]

I hate to interrupt this discussion of the N word and to interrupt a dad talking about what his daughter says, but Goodell's been talking to players in the league.

In the past 60 days, Goodell, I’m told, has met with more than 30 players, asking them how to make the locker room a more tolerant, more professional place. Players like Avant have told Goodell what he needs to hear. (Avant confirmed to me Sunday night that he asked Goodell to set standards for the players in the league, so publicly they’re not all painted with the Incognito brush.) Vice president of player engagement Troy Vincent and the czar of human resources for the NFL, Robert Gulliver, have also been involved in the meetings. They knew bad things were coming in the Ted Wells report, and the bad things came … worse than many people in the league thought. In the end, Richie Incognito and his perverse and persistent bullying and sister-raping jokes and goonishness gone mad will do a favor for the league. All the gone-too-far frat boys in locker rooms around the league can thank Incognito now, because when the NFL adopts a locker-room and meeting-room behavior policy, it’s going to be for adults. Will veterans be able to make rookies sing their college fight songs? Yes. Will vets be able to run kangaroo courts and fine peers $100 for especially stinky farts? Yes. Beyond that, vets won’t be allowed to humiliate young players the way it happened in Miami.

A shame! The corporatization of the NFL!

I say good. And good riddance to the bad-cop stuff—or whatever disgusting crap—Incognito and John Jerry and Mike Pouncey were advocating in the past couple of years.

Vincent shared with me Sunday his ideas for professionalism in the NFL workplace. Players should have a code of conduct perhaps not identical to but certainly in the same league with other members of a football organization—scouts, marketers, administrative help, executives, coaches. “I think you’ll see workplace training conducted for the football side,’’ Vincent said. “The kind of respect-at-work training that happens on the second floor, in the business offices, needs to happen on the first floor, with the players.”

 

[fatness]

NFL may not be able to discipline Incognito

The Collective Bargaining Agreement states that only one penalty may be imposed on a player.

Article 46, Section 4 — titled “One Penalty” — says that there shall be only (duh) one penalty: “The Commissioner and a Club will not both discipline a player for the same act or conduct. The Commissioner’s disciplinary action will preclude or supersede disciplinary action by any Club for the same act or conduct.”

Per a league source, the NFLPA intends to fight any discipline of Incognito based on Article 46, Section 4. The potential battleground comes from the question of whether the league would be disciplining Incognito for the “same act or conduct.”

 

[Tango]

Interesting. I guess that depends on who you ask. The last tweet I saw was from Breer and he said this:

@AlbertBreer: I've gone thru pretty much all the facts in the Wells report, and it's really hard -- if you've been around the NFL -- to be stunned by it.

I saw that tweet too. Martin himself said that he has been the target of bullies for most of his life. So, to put total blame on the Dolphins organization is wrong. But, where do you rank the Dolphin's locker room on the scale of best to worst? If it's determined to be the worst, an argument could be made that the draft forces a player to go to a team that is not in their best interest.

Yup.

(1) Am I missing something or is Incognito representative of 25%-50% of NFL linemen in his maturity/approach-to-life, etc. and he got caught up with a guy with mucho problems and didnt really have the capacity to be sensitive to it. The stuff from the leaks wasnt as bad as Martin's side made it out. It doesnt seem Incognito is an exception to the rule in the NFL. he's no saint either of course.

(2) Did the NFL mention that Martin or someone from the Martin side will be disciplined for the leaks?

Was this in reply to my post? If so:

(1) I am not sure what you mean here.

(2) What leaks? The text messages that came out? First, I thought that they came from Richie (although I'm not sure about that), and second, they were in a sense his to disseminate. I wouldn't call them "leaks". This wasn't a criminal investigation and there was nothing confidential about the them. Or maybe you are talking about something else?

(1) Incognito seems to not be a typical NFL lineman, but not atypical either. This could have happened to dozens upon dozens of other NFL players who have the same meat-head attitude, just that the others were luck enough not get crossed-up with someone who has serious mental problems and has a legal-camp larger than OJ.

(2) The leaks were inflammatory and told one-side of a story that clearly had another side or two. To defend that by saying that Martin's camp "has a right" to leak misleading information is not acceptable if you want to claim Martin to be a victim. Two wrongs do not make a right. He released voicemails seemingly showing a crazy Incognito harassing him in a sheltered way, when Martin himself laughed about them with various teammates and Hartline called him out on it. Then there's the whole leak of the conversation between Martin's agent and Ireland that was in the headlines for a week. That leak probably came from Martin's agent (did the NFL get to the bottom of it?) and was inherently biased and potentially highly misleading. Same is true with the texts. Martin cannot spin and/or be deceptive on on-hand and then claim he's an innocent victim on the other.

Tango -- A serious question: Have you read the report?

(2) Which "leaks" are you referring to? The information that was disseminated at the beginning of the debacle? If so, information was given to the media by both sides. I guess "misleading" is somewhat in the eye of the beholder, but all of the sides (Dolphins, Martin, Incognito, etc.) had an interesting in trying to control the spin. That's pretty normal. Richie has certainly publicized many things himself, including announcing to the world on Twitter that Martin had been suicidal.

Why should the NFL be interested in getting to the bottom of who said what in the conversation between Ireland and the agent? I don't think any rules or laws were broken... What was there to investigate? (BTW, this issue was touched upon in the report.)

I have read pieces of the report from my cell phone, not every word.

Equivocating Martin and Incgonito "leaks" is something I disagree with based on what we know. Martin played the media like a fiddle and to the extent it was misleading (and it was seemingly exceefingly misleading) should be punished for it by the NFL. I think the NFL must play a role in that respect. The media manipulation and smearing of Incognito (even if partially correct, it was still a smear) should not be allowed. ...my words here are not an attempt to equivocate Martin and Ingnito in the grand scheme of things. Incognito deserves what he gets for his acts before the story broke.

 

[fatness]

On the radio today Andrew Brandt said he didn't think a team would sign Incognito until August or September.

 

[fatness]

Looks like maybe it's sinking in that Incognito was sabotaging his own prospects of finding good paying work in the NFL.

It appeared for a while on Friday night that Dolphins guard Richie Incognito had pulled the plug on his Twitter account. He hadn’t.

At some point since Friday night, he did. Yes, the account otherwise known as @68INCOGNITO is no more. While it may have been a rash reaction to the abuse he was taking on Twitter after the Wells report was released — a blow back that surely was enhanced by his prior boasts and proclamations that he’d be exonerated — the move may have resulted from the advice of Incognito’s agents and lawyers. Even if Incognito had managed to make it through 23 hours and 59 minutes of a given day without saying something that could work against his effort to avoid further punishment from the NFL or find a new team as of March 11, in that one remaining minute his alter ego known as The Tornado could have wrecked everything.

It was a smart move, given that Richie’s alternative to continuing his NFL career is finding a real job in a real workplace that wouldn’t tolerate two percent of the stuff he routinely said and did in Miami.

So the next we’ll hear from Richie likely will come from his agents or lawyers, especially since attorney Mark Schamel declared on Friday that the Wells report is “replete with errors.” In more than two days since then, neither Schamel nor Incognito have identified a single erroneous fact, inference, or conclusion contained in the 144-page report. Schamel, however, has promised a thorough analysis of the report.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/02/16/incognito-pulls-plug-on-his-twitter-account/

Well that didn't last long.

He's back on Twitter and has supposedly fired his agent.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Looks like maybe it's sinking in that Incognito was sabotaging his own prospects of finding good paying work in the NFL.

It appeared for a while on Friday night that Dolphins guard Richie Incognito had pulled the plug on his Twitter account. He hadn’t.

At some point since Friday night, he did. Yes, the account otherwise known as @68INCOGNITO is no more. While it may have been a rash reaction to the abuse he was taking on Twitter after the Wells report was released — a blow back that surely was enhanced by his prior boasts and proclamations that he’d be exonerated — the move may have resulted from the advice of Incognito’s agents and lawyers. Even if Incognito had managed to make it through 23 hours and 59 minutes of a given day without saying something that could work against his effort to avoid further punishment from the NFL or find a new team as of March 11, in that one remaining minute his alter ego known as The Tornado could have wrecked everything.

It was a smart move, given that Richie’s alternative to continuing his NFL career is finding a real job in a real workplace that wouldn’t tolerate two percent of the stuff he routinely said and did in Miami.

So the next we’ll hear from Richie likely will come from his agents or lawyers, especially since attorney Mark Schamel declared on Friday that the Wells report is “replete with errors.” In more than two days since then, neither Schamel nor Incognito have identified a single erroneous fact, inference, or conclusion contained in the 144-page report. Schamel, however, has promised a thorough analysis of the report.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/02/16/incognito-pulls-plug-on-his-twitter-account/

Well that didn't last long.

He's back on Twitter and has supposedly fired his agent.

things ain't gonna end well for Rich. Just be quiet my god you fool.

 

[fatness]

Well that didn't last long.He's back on Twitter and has supposedly fired his agent.

things ain't gonna end well for Rich. Just be quiet my god you fool.

You have to hand it to him --- he's consistent. When the wrong thing needs to be done, he's right there to do it.

 

[fatness]

Here's where he supposedly fired his agent. On twitter.

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/02/richie-incognito-fires-his-agent-apologizes-for-acting-like-a-big-baby-in-return-to-twitter/incognito3/#main

 

[Kalamazoo]

Tango -- A serious question: Have you read the report?


(2) Which "leaks" are you referring to? The information that was disseminated at the beginning of the debacle? If so, information was given to the media by both sides. I guess "misleading" is somewhat in the eye of the beholder, but all of the sides (Dolphins, Martin, Incognito, etc.) had an interesting in trying to control the spin. That's pretty normal. Richie has certainly publicized many things himself, including announcing to the world on Twitter that Martin had been suicidal.

Why should the NFL be interested in getting to the bottom of who said what in the conversation between Ireland and the agent? I don't think any rules or laws were broken... What was there to investigate? (BTW, this issue was touched upon in the report.)

I have read pieces of the report from my cell phone, not every word.

Equivocating Martin and Incgonito "leaks" is something I disagree with based on what we know. Martin played the media like a fiddle and to the extent it was misleading (and it was seemingly exceefingly misleading) should be punished for it by the NFL. I think the NFL must play a role in that respect. The media manipulation and smearing of Incognito (even if partially correct, it was still a smear) should not be allowed. ...my words here are not an attempt to equivocate Martin and Ingnito in the grand scheme of things. Incognito deserves what he gets for his acts before the story broke.

I strongly recommend the whole thing. It's fascinating on many levels...

I think maybe you and I are using different definitions of the pejorative sense of the term "leaks". Regardless, which parts of the information disseminated by Martin and co. do you feel were exceedingly misleading? With the exception of the alleged physical assault, I believe the allegations made by Martin's team have all been borne out by the report. The report determined that while the physical altercation took place and wasn't fully innocent, it didn't rise to the level of maliciousness, as had been claimed by Martin. It is entirely possible that Martin honestly felt that the incident was indeed malicious and acted in good faith when he leveled that accusation. It is also possible that it was put out there in a exaggerated fashion. Or maybe some combination of the two. I would tend to give Martin the benefit of the doubt here, just as I give Richie the benefit of the doubt when he says he didn't believe he was doing anything wrong when he said many of the things he did, but reasonable minds can certainly differ.

Honestly, the information that was spread by the principles here was theirs to give out. Unless there had been an agreement of secrecy between Ireland and the agent, for example, the agent had the right to share parts of his conversation.

What rules do you think Martin broke that he should be punished for?

It's also noteworthy that within an hour or two of the text message exchange between Martin and Richie where Martin basically said that it was about the culture and that he didn't blame Richie, these messages had been shared (by Richie) with journalists who immediately published them. Martin then cut off communication with Richie because he felt like he had been manipulated into sending messages Richie could use in his own spin campaign. I'm not sure how that was any better than what Martin's people did.

Edited to add: I'm really not entirely sure where you are coming from with some of this. I think the general consensus, even among many folks who were initially quite skeptical of Martin, is that he was largely vindicated in the report. (Which is not to say that he was totally innocent, but that things were at least as bad, if not worse, than he had originally indicated.)

 

[Tango]

Tango -- A serious question: Have you read the report?


(2) Which "leaks" are you referring to? The information that was disseminated at the beginning of the debacle? If so, information was given to the media by both sides. I guess "misleading" is somewhat in the eye of the beholder, but all of the sides (Dolphins, Martin, Incognito, etc.) had an interesting in trying to control the spin. That's pretty normal. Richie has certainly publicized many things himself, including announcing to the world on Twitter that Martin had been suicidal.

Why should the NFL be interested in getting to the bottom of who said what in the conversation between Ireland and the agent? I don't think any rules or laws were broken... What was there to investigate? (BTW, this issue was touched upon in the report.)

I have read pieces of the report from my cell phone, not every word.

Equivocating Martin and Incgonito "leaks" is something I disagree with based on what we know. Martin played the media like a fiddle and to the extent it was misleading (and it was seemingly exceefingly misleading) should be punished for it by the NFL. I think the NFL must play a role in that respect. The media manipulation and smearing of Incognito (even if partially correct, it was still a smear) should not be allowed. ...my words here are not an attempt to equivocate Martin and Ingnito in the grand scheme of things. Incognito deserves what he gets for his acts before the story broke.

I strongly recommend the whole thing. It's fascinating on many levels...

I think maybe you and I are using different definitions of the pejorative sense of the term "leaks". Regardless, which parts of the information disseminated by Martin and co. do you feel were exceedingly misleading? With the exception of the alleged physical assault, I believe the allegations made by Martin's team have all been borne out by the report. The report determined that while the physical altercation took place and wasn't fully innocent, it didn't rise to the level of maliciousness, as had been claimed by Martin. It is entirely possible that Martin honestly felt that the incident was indeed malicious and acted in good faith when he leveled that accusation. It is also possible that it was put out there in a exaggerated fashion. Or maybe some combination of the two. I would tend to give Martin the benefit of the doubt here, just as I give Richie the benefit of the doubt when he says he didn't believe he was doing anything wrong when he said many of the things he did, but reasonable minds can certainly differ.

Honestly, the information that was spread by the principles here was theirs to give out. Unless there had been an agreement of secrecy between Ireland and the agent, for example, the agent had the right to share parts of his conversation.

What rules do you think Martin broke that he should be punished for?

It's also noteworthy that within an hour or two of the text message exchange between Martin and Richie where Martin basically said that it was about the culture and that he didn't blame Richie, these messages had been shared (by Richie) with journalists who immediately published them. Martin then cut off communication with Richie because he felt like he had been manipulated into sending messages Richie could use in his own spin campaign. I'm not sure how that was any better than what Martin's people did.

Edited to add: I'm really not entirely sure where you are coming from with some of this. I think the general consensus, even among many folks who were initially quite skeptical of Martin, is that he was largely vindicated in the report. (Which is not to say that he was totally innocent, but that things were at least as bad, if not worse, than he had originally indicated.)

Thanks for the thoughtful reply...

First, Im curious about your response to my first question:

(1) Incognito seems to not be a typical NFL lineman, but not atypical either. This could have happened to dozens upon dozens of other NFL players who have the same meat-head attitude, just that the others were luck enough not get crossed-up with someone who has serious mental problems and has a legal-camp larger than OJ.

To concur with the above is to not necessarily take the side of Incognito or excuse him. It also is unlikely to be admitted or reflected upon with any insight in the report.

To answer your questions:

(1) The NFL's report on this isnt gospel, nor is it the best we have to go on in this case IMHO. I read it skeptically. I do not think the NFL report is the final say. My first impression was that it was written by an HR/legal-professional that was more concerned about being PC than any other particular objective. I see this happen everyday in my profession and I admit I have a bias against it (as an aside, my admission does not diminish the value of my opinion; I actually think it enhances it). And it doesnt mean the report is useless either. It just means it needs to be taken in context for what it is and that there are plenty of useful insights that can be taken away.

Again, that does not mean that Incognito is innocent of anything; but I would gather that the majority of people who were actually there do not think what happened is as scandalous as it actually was to Martin. Martin, as one among a few who were bullied (and I state that as fact here), was not unlike many innocents who are/have been wrongly bullied in the NFL...to-date, he's the only one we know of to (1) combine it with a serious social disorder of some sort, and (2) have a legal/consulting group at the ready to aid his cause.

(2) The misleading leaks were damaging and numerous and I hope that those that perpetrated it, including Martin, are taken to task for it legally and/or through the NFL. I'd need to research it, but right off the top of my head (1) the Vegas trip was completely mischaracterized, caused damage to Incognnito/Pouncey/McClure/et al and the Weis report backs it up as being mischarcterized on pages 39 and 40 of the report, (2) the text messages and voicemails that were leaked often only quoted Incognito and conveniently left out Martin's offensive replies. That's a malicious attempt to disparage an individual. Some might call it bullying, I call it a crime. Again, two wrongs do not make a right. (3) the voicemail release also left out a side of the story that completely changes one's view of the situation. It's clear that it was surgically released without context to damage Incognito and attempt to label him the villan; and media gladly complied. Again, it was malicious and misleading. Incognito seems to be the villian in many respects anyway, but that does not excuse using these criminal tactics. They are punishable and should be pursued to the fullest extent...

 

[KCitons]

Tango - this was mentioned earlier in this thread. Wells had no subpoena power during this investigation. There was no reason for players to tell the truth, or lie. Or speak at all. which I read, some players chose to do. I'm not sure what else would come out if people were forced to testify under oath. But, I also don't think it will come to that with this case. In the end, this whole thing will serve as the reason for establishing rules.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

I'm not a fan of MTS, or his work in this thread. Even though we may share similar opinions on the Martin situation, his methods are not always the most constructive.

Chuck, you and I have gone back and forth for months. I don't see much of a change in the way you view this situation. Go back and reread your first few posts. As things progressed, you always included the caveat that your opinion could change once the facts are presented.

We now have the facts. But, nothing has changed. You accuse others of having blinders on, but can't see the hypocrisy of your own statements. The will to be correct, even in small part, continues to drive you.

This is a post you made back in November

I know I will get lambasted by many for saying this, and probably be told that people feel sorry for my kids, but...

The hazing that has been reported thus far does not sound all that bad to me. The $15K is bad, but not worthy of walking out on your team. The "getting up from the table" BS just sounds like guys being guys. And the recent report that Martin did the exact same thing to Nate Garner (backup guard) the prior week puts a bigger question mark on all of this. You are going to do it to someone else, and then cry when they do it to you? Really? Then tell on them? Sounds like 3rd grade.

I am not saying that the "victim" is to blame here. I am just saying that based upon what I have read, the alleged hazing does not seem to justify someone quitting on their teammates in the middle of a semi-promising season. There is probably a lot that I dont know, ranging possibly from worse hazing, mental illness, or both. Just basing this on what I have read...thats all. So hold off on calling me a bad parent for now.

ETA - That was not directed at any poster in particular - just the mentality of those getting high up on their soap boxes claiming that Martin is unquestionably right in all of this, and anyone questioning that point of view is a moronic thug.

And now today's post

This is interesting, and may explain some of the disconnect that is apparent in this thread.

I live in the DC Metro area, in a middle class suburb in between DC and Baltimore. Where I live, the N word is thrown around often, by people of all colors. The word is mostly used completely out of context per the dictionary. "My N-word", is used similarly to: "my man", "my brother", "dude", "my homie", "my friend". Its pretty common. The word still shocks me when I hear it because of what it has meant to society for most of my life, but in all honesty, the word has softened a bit over the years as it has made its way into the every day vernacular of so many people, and not in a negative way.

I have a 14 year old daughter. I cant believe I have to say this in a thread where people are so aggressively defending bullying, but please refrain from any negative comments about my daughter in this thread, as that will be very offensive. Negative comments about my son have already been made by people who dont even know me or him, so I do feel that this is necessary to say in this thread, with these particular regular posters. Anyway, my 14 year old daughter who is a very good kid uses the N word sometimes in my home. She uses it in a positive way - "He is my N-word" for example when referring to a good friend. I hate it, and she knows it. She does not use it when speaking to me, but I hear her and her friends (of white, and African American race) use it with eachother all the time. To them, the word is not what it is to many of us.

That said, She and I both know that she would be pushing her luck using the word outside of her own comfort zone, even though she does not mean it in a negative way. She is caucasian, and caucasians cannot use that word in public. However, if she were African American, there would be a different standard. There is a different standard. At least where I live.

You and I have simply been exposed to different experiences with the word. I wish I could make the claim that you have made above, but my experiences are simply different.

You were the first to bring your kids into this thread, and continue to use them as an example to prove your point.

As a parent, I think it's time to let the football forums and the NFL take care of themselves. Instead, put that energy into your kids.

I may be misinterpreting this, so dont take this as a defensive response. I want to understand better what you are saying here before I respond.

Is the implication of this post that I am a neglectful parent because I post on this message board? Or instead are you simply implying that this is kind of a dead issue, and to back to my real life. If the latter, I wholeheartedly agree.

For the record, I dont believe I was the first to bring my kids onto this message board. I could be mistaken, but I believe I was told that I was the type of parent who would promote extreme violence against innocent people from his son before I made that first post regarding my parenting. Pretty sure that statement was in response to that, but my timelines could be in error. Either way, under the bridge as far as I am concerned.

And for the record, you turned out to be dead on right about many of the things that you theorized in this thread, that I challenged you on. If I was offensive in some of my responses, you have my apologies.

Chuck, sorry for any confusion. I'm not saying you are a neglectful parent. What I am saying, is instead of discussing the N word with people on a random message board, perhaps that time could be used to discuss the use of the N word with your daughter.

Its a fair point. But in her defense, she is just trying to fit in ;-)

Seriously, I will be discussing this with her again. It is a terrible word, even when it is not used in terrible context.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Vernon Davis says Incognito is a "great guy"

That is kind of shocking in light of all of this.

McKinnie and Andrew McDonald - who seems to have gotten it just as bad if not worse than Martin - with nothing but positive things to say about Coach Turner. Also refute much of the context of the Wells report. There is definitely more than one common opinion on this issue, as difficult as that may be for some people to see.

http://www.thephinsider.com/2014/2/18/5420798/bryant-mckinnie-andrew-mcdonald-continue-to-refute-wells-report

 

[MoveToSkypager]

I live in the DC Metro area, in a middle class suburb in between DC and Baltimore. Where I live, the N word is thrown around often, by people of all colors. The word is mostly used completely out of context per the dictionary. "My N-word", is used similarly to: "my man", "my brother", "dude", "my homie", "my friend". Its pretty common. The word still shocks me when I hear it because of what it has meant to society for most of my life, but in all honesty, the word has softened a bit over the years as it has made its way into the every day vernacular of so many people, and not in a negative way.

No it isn't pretty common. That's a 100% fabrication.

Are you saying that the dialogue from The Wire was unrealistic? It was littered with N-bombs throughout.

The Wire. That's an old show. Is that one about an upper middle class family in suburbia? Sounds right. The one with Michael J Fox in it?

Dude I don't know what world you live in but I can assure you, you're totally lost on this point. I can't even fathom maintaining the position that it is a rarity.

Are you somehow mincing the "er" incarnation with the "a" version? I have heard people make this division before.

And to bring up a point earlier in the thread, if black players were using it amongst themselves and a player of another race overheard and was offended by the mere presence of the word, should the black players who took the rare step to using it, be disciplined?

You work in the film industry and you are asking me what world I live in?Yeah.

I'm going to guess I go more places, have lived more places and met more people across a cross section of life than many on the board. Perhaps even you.Apparently I'm the only one of the two of us who had any interaction with black people.

I went back and read this exchange. I'm pretty sure we were talking about different things right off the bat. I think (hope) you were talking about people using the slang word in general, applying to any situation. I was talking about a white upper middle class teeneage girl using the word in her world. We aren't talking about the ####### Wire here. She isn't smoking rock in Baltimore row houses. There is a huge amount of difference. Look, I know white people use the word in varying meanings and degrees. Whatever. But don't flaunt that your white teenage upper middle class daughter uses the word and you wring your hands about the fact that you can't control your teenage daughter so she keeps doing it. Don't do that especially when you don't know who reads this message board and could find situations like that pretty inflammatory. Now I know you and everyone else don't give a ####, so go ahead and tell me how I don't know what I'm talking about, again.

 

[Neofight]

Vernon Davis says Incognito is a "great guy"

That is kind of shocking in light of all of this. McKinnie and Andrew McDonald - who seems to have gotten it just as bad if not worse than Martin - with nothing but positive things to say about Coach Turner. Also refute much of the context of the Wells report. There is definitely more than one common opinion on this issue, as difficult as that may be for some people to see.

http://www.thephinsider.com/2014/2/18/5420798/bryant-mckinnie-andrew-mcdonald-continue-to-refute-wells-report

Changing a culture is difficult. Getting people to accept responsibility and admit error is next to impossible with poor leadership.P.S. Why does Vernon Davis opinion matter on this issue? Is there some meaningful history there?

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Vernon Davis says Incognito is a "great guy"

That is kind of shocking in light of all of this. McKinnie and Andrew McDonald - who seems to have gotten it just as bad if not worse than Martin - with nothing but positive things to say about Coach Turner. Also refute much of the context of the Wells report. There is definitely more than one common opinion on this issue, as difficult as that may be for some people to see.

http://www.thephinsider.com/2014/2/18/5420798/bryant-mckinnie-andrew-mcdonald-continue-to-refute-wells-report

Changing a culture is difficult. Getting people to accept responsibility and admit error is next to impossible with poor leadership.P.S. Why does Vernon Davis opinion matter on this issue? Is there some meaningful history there?

Not really. His brother, Vonte was Richie's teammate for a few years for whatever thats worth. I dont know why he felt the need to say anything, especially in defense of a pretty indefensible person, but for whatever reason, he did.

 

[Kalamazoo]

Vernon Davis says Incognito is a "great guy"

That is kind of shocking in light of all of this.

McKinnie and Andrew McDonald - who seems to have gotten it just as bad if not worse than Martin - with nothing but positive things to say about Coach Turner. Also refute much of the context of the Wells report. There is definitely more than one common opinion on this issue, as difficult as that may be for some people to see.

http://www.thephinsider.com/2014/2/18/5420798/bryant-mckinnie-andrew-mcdonald-continue-to-refute-wells-report

How long was McKinnie with the Dolphins before Martin left? A couple of weeks at most? Was he really in a position to be able to judge what was happening? I do hope he was right when he said this: "I just think it was a lack of communication." In other words, it would be nice to think that if Martin had stood up for himself or somebody had said something to Richie that it would have stopped. I guess we'll never know...

Maybe McDonald was totally fine with it, but he has plenty of incentive to brush it aside. My understanding is that he is even more of a marginal player than Kluwe (or even Ayanbadejo) -- is that correct? If so, and if he wants to keep playing, he might be very well advised to brush the whole thing away. I guess I'd be more curious to know what he'd say about it in five or ten years. It is also possible that given the blacklash Martin has gotten for being "soft", that McDonald wouldn't ever want to admit it bothered him. Heck, look at how the trainer responded to Wells! If the trainer were able to brush off they treatment he got and be not bothered by it, he's one pretty stoical, tough guy. Maybe he should be on the team! (And anyway, some of the messages quoted in the report do indicate that he was bothered by it.) The anti-snitch culture appears to run very, very deeply.**

[** And this is one of the things that I don't like about strong fraternal cultures with strict rank-closing, anti-snitch, us-against-the-world mindsets. Maybe it's mostly harmless in the NFL (depending on what you think about things like Bountygate, of course, but either way, it doesn't hurt members of the public), but it's a really bad thing when it comes to accountability in police, military, etc. organizations and lives get ruined because of it.]

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Vernon Davis says Incognito is a "great guy"

That is kind of shocking in light of all of this.

McKinnie and Andrew McDonald - who seems to have gotten it just as bad if not worse than Martin - with nothing but positive things to say about Coach Turner. Also refute much of the context of the Wells report. There is definitely more than one common opinion on this issue, as difficult as that may be for some people to see.

http://www.thephinsider.com/2014/2/18/5420798/bryant-mckinnie-andrew-mcdonald-continue-to-refute-wells-report

How long was McKinnie with the Dolphins before Martin left? A couple of weeks at most? Was he really in a position to be able to judge what was happening? I do hope he was right when he said this: "I just think it was a lack of communication." In other words, it would be nice to think that if Martin had stood up for himself or somebody had said something to Richie that it would have stopped. I guess we'll never know...

Maybe McDonald was totally fine with it, but he has plenty of incentive to brush it aside. My understanding is that he is even more of a marginal player than Kluwe (or even Ayanbadejo) -- is that correct? If so, and if he wants to keep playing, he might be very well advised to brush the whole thing away. I guess I'd be more curious to know what he'd say about it in five or ten years. It is also possible that given the blacklash Martin has gotten for being "soft", that McDonald wouldn't ever want to admit it bothered him. Heck, look at how the trainer responded to Wells! If the trainer were able to brush off they treatment he got and be not bothered by it, he's one pretty stoical, tough guy. Maybe he should be on the team! (And anyway, some of the messages quoted in the report do indicate that he was bothered by it.) The anti-snitch culture appears to run very, very deeply.**

[** And this is one of the things that I don't like about strong fraternal cultures with strict rank-closing, anti-snitch, us-against-the-world mindsets. Maybe it's mostly harmless in the NFL (depending on what you think about things like Bountygate, of course, but either way, it doesn't hurt members of the public), but it's a really bad thing when it comes to accountability in police, military, etc. organizations and lives get ruined because of it.]

You always make good points, and I completely understand your perspective.

Part of the takeaway here though is that even though McKinnie was only there for about a week with Martin, he has a better perspective than anyone on this board as to what went on in that locker room, and what is normal NFL culture. Now, he brings a littany of baggage with him regarding his character, so he s not exactly the first person I would want to testify on my behalf in a morality case, but even still, his perspective is that of an NFL veteran player. Ours is of that of a message board poster.

McDonald coming forward may be self-serving. It also may have been self-serving if he went in the opposite direction. Tough for Carolina to cut him if he did. There would be PR repercussions there that they cut him because he was a bullying victim. He never had to say a single word, and it probably would have been about the same as it is now for him. He wouldn't be questioned for being soft - he never said a word about the treatment to the public.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Harvard convened an interdisciplinary panel to look at lessons to be learned about hazing, harassment, mental health and the locker room, and emerged with a consensus that the technical definition of Incognito's psychiatric condition is that he is cray cray.

 

[Smack Tripper]

I live in the DC Metro area, in a middle class suburb in between DC and Baltimore. Where I live, the N word is thrown around often, by people of all colors. The word is mostly used completely out of context per the dictionary. "My N-word", is used similarly to: "my man", "my brother", "dude", "my homie", "my friend". Its pretty common. The word still shocks me when I hear it because of what it has meant to society for most of my life, but in all honesty, the word has softened a bit over the years as it has made its way into the every day vernacular of so many people, and not in a negative way.

No it isn't pretty common. That's a 100% fabrication.

Are you saying that the dialogue from The Wire was unrealistic? It was littered with N-bombs throughout.

The Wire. That's an old show. Is that one about an upper middle class family in suburbia? Sounds right. The one with Michael J Fox in it?

Dude I don't know what world you live in but I can assure you, you're totally lost on this point. I can't even fathom maintaining the position that it is a rarity.

Are you somehow mincing the "er" incarnation with the "a" version? I have heard people make this division before.

And to bring up a point earlier in the thread, if black players were using it amongst themselves and a player of another race overheard and was offended by the mere presence of the word, should the black players who took the rare step to using it, be disciplined?

You work in the film industry and you are asking me what world I live in?Yeah.

I'm going to guess I go more places, have lived more places and met more people across a cross section of life than many on the board. Perhaps even you.Apparently I'm the only one of the two of us who had any interaction with black people.

I went back and read this exchange. I'm pretty sure we were talking about different things right off the bat. I think (hope) you were talking about people using the slang word in general, applying to any situation. I was talking about a white upper middle class teeneage girl using the word in her world. We aren't talking about the ####### Wire here. She isn't smoking rock in Baltimore row houses. There is a huge amount of difference. Look, I know white people use the word in varying meanings and degrees. Whatever. But don't flaunt that your white teenage upper middle class daughter uses the word and you wring your hands about the fact that you can't control your teenage daughter so she keeps doing it. Don't do that especially when you don't know who reads this message board and could find situations like that pretty inflammatory. Now I know you and everyone else don't give a ####, so go ahead and tell me how I don't know what I'm talking about, again.

My response was in regard to the emphasized above. The delineation you just made was absent, and your point reads, in response to the point you bolded, that the use of the N word is a fabrication.

 

[MoveToSkypager]

I live in the DC Metro area, in a middle class suburb in between DC and Baltimore. Where I live, the N word is thrown around often, by people of all colors. The word is mostly used completely out of context per the dictionary. "My N-word", is used similarly to: "my man", "my brother", "dude", "my homie", "my friend". Its pretty common. The word still shocks me when I hear it because of what it has meant to society for most of my life, but in all honesty, the word has softened a bit over the years as it has made its way into the every day vernacular of so many people, and not in a negative way.

No it isn't pretty common. That's a 100% fabrication.

Are you saying that the dialogue from The Wire was unrealistic? It was littered with N-bombs throughout.

The Wire. That's an old show. Is that one about an upper middle class family in suburbia? Sounds right. The one with Michael J Fox in it?

Dude I don't know what world you live in but I can assure you, you're totally lost on this point. I can't even fathom maintaining the position that it is a rarity.

Are you somehow mincing the "er" incarnation with the "a" version? I have heard people make this division before.

And to bring up a point earlier in the thread, if black players were using it amongst themselves and a player of another race overheard and was offended by the mere presence of the word, should the black players who took the rare step to using it, be disciplined?

You work in the film industry and you are asking me what world I live in?Yeah.

I'm going to guess I go more places, have lived more places and met more people across a cross section of life than many on the board. Perhaps even you.Apparently I'm the only one of the two of us who had any interaction with black people.

I went back and read this exchange. I'm pretty sure we were talking about different things right off the bat. I think (hope) you were talking about people using the slang word in general, applying to any situation. I was talking about a white upper middle class teeneage girl using the word in her world. We aren't talking about the ####### Wire here. She isn't smoking rock in Baltimore row houses. There is a huge amount of difference. Look, I know white people use the word in varying meanings and degrees. Whatever. But don't flaunt that your white teenage upper middle class daughter uses the word and you wring your hands about the fact that you can't control your teenage daughter so she keeps doing it. Don't do that especially when you don't know who reads this message board and could find situations like that pretty inflammatory. Now I know you and everyone else don't give a ####, so go ahead and tell me how I don't know what I'm talking about, again.

My response was in regard to the emphasized above. The delineation you just made was absent, and your point reads, in response to the point you bolded, that the use of the N word is a fabrication.

Okay. I knew it was my fault somehow.

 

[Touchdown There]

Incognito has apologized to Martin today

 

[fatness]

On Twitter.