The Commish
Footballguy
I personally don't think he'll say this once. He'll have to clarify the distinction between words that many times...no question.Max Power said:
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Donald Trump impeachment poll (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Juxtatarot
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It was a worthwhile investigation and they did not find colusion between the president and Russia in the tamering. Charges of obstruction and/or purjury are not on the same level.
Max Power
Footballguy
If you cant prove over 2 years, it probably didnt happen. There isnt cum on a dress.
Should our legal standard be if there isnt enough to convict... go ahead and try anyway?
And are we really going to sit here and say what Trump did is worse than what Hillary did? I'm fine opening the flood gates on dems. Let's clear house. I doubt care. But think about it. There are reasons top dems dont want this... they arent stupid. Or they are. Your call
I wanted him removed in my younger and dumber days, but it was never going to happen, it was a waste of time, and it had a negative impact on this country. It was not the BJ, it was lying under oath.
Ruffrodys05
IBL Representative
So, lying under oath matters to you? I call BS.
This makes absolutely no sense. He obstructed in an investigation where they were seeking information about Russia using cyber-methods and hacking into our election process. If you had no vested interest in Trump and were just given that fact, you'd 100% agree that is a MAJOR problem.
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
I'm sick of Hillary. I say lock her up so everyone shuts up about her. I'm not saying Trump needs to be convicted but it certainly looks like there may be something going on. There was no word on him being completely innocent, just that there wasn't enough evidence. Usually that means there is still suspicion but nothing can be done.
The founders clearly did not intent for Congress to impeach based on any crime. That is historically documented. They stated Bribery and Treason as guidence to the type of crimes to consider for impeachment. Obstruction does not rise to that level if one is being honest about it.If only the Founders had given us some sort of guidance as to the possible application of impeachment to actions that don't amount to treason or bribery
How come Trump didn't get caught lying under oath? Oh yeah. He just lied 37 times in writing and said he couldn't remember. After refusing to be interviewed.
Franknbeans
Footballguy
I prefer he gets voted out for his horrible policies
BroadwayG
Footballguy
Skoo
Footballguy
Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama, and Trump have all been accused of obstruction and probably have to some extent. So no, I do not believe it should be an impeachable offense.
Max Power
Footballguy
You're not wrong, but where do we go from here?
The D base hates him so much they are hurting their 2020 chances and they cant even see it
Hawkeye21
Footballguy
That's the million dollar question. I wish I knew. I can't stand Trump and want him gone but I'd like to see it done the right way.
ericttspikes
Footballguy
Rule of Law Republicans, how quaint. Ship has sailed on that plank of the GOP. "Strict Constitutionalist" Republicans are also spit take funny these days.
BroadwayG
Footballguy
So lets just have a hypothetical where Obama accepted a $2 billion bribe from Russia for sanction relief.
Obviously an impeachable offense.
But if he successfully prevents any investigation to occur, including offering pardons, firing investigators, threatening witnesses, asserting executive privilege, avoiding answering any questions about the subject, ignoring Congressional subpeonas, he should be free and clear from impeachment?
Ruffrodys05
IBL Representative
Yep. According to all these folks in here claiming Dems are losing their minds, it would've been totally okay. But, blinders and all.
The full investigation occurred into the Russian tampering examining all the pertinent facts. You spun the hypothetical up so much, it is completely irrelevant to what actually occured.
ericttspikes
Footballguy
The birth of a US kleptocracy. Trump has learned a lot from Russia.
Max Power
Footballguy
The good news is that I think CNN is finally coming around. They ran an opinion piece about some Bernie comments that the news is too focused on trump and not enough on what 2020 offers.
I mean that is the ONLY way a D vote wins me
Max Power
Footballguy
Jon it wasnt collusion per Mueller unless you really read the report. Then your own judgement should outweigh a 2 year partisan investigation that had a goal of guilt from day 1.For month the trump-haters have mocked trump supporters because they believed the trump supporters would not accept the results of the investigation.....
Max Power
Footballguy
Don't you remember when the benghazi and email investigations that lasted years and resulted in nothing propelled Hillary to POTUS? Republicans really dropped the ball and helped her. Amirite?
McJose
Footballguy
I'll make a deal with you:
If you firmly support and encourage the House to start impeachment proceedings against Trump I will totally get behind the same thing happening to Hillary.
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BroadwayG
Footballguy
Dickies
Footballguy
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I consider systematic obstruction of justice in an investigation into an attack on Americans and the election process by a foreign adversary, followed by bad faith refusal to recognize the legitimate exercise of oversight by the legislative branch, to be a far more substantial and impeachment-worthy crime than making or accepting a bribe (something that Donald Trump effectively does every day anyway).
It's all subjective of course, which is one reason to have the hearings so the American people can be fully informed of the extent of the transgressions, but I think any reasonable person would say the same is one is being honest about it.
FWIW I would put directing a felony violation of campaign finance laws in order to bury negative stories and then lying about it on about on the same level as bribery.
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Max Power
Footballguy
matuski
Footballguy
Obama masterfully trolled the right for years over the birther stuff. It was great.
Trump wears a hat and tweets from the toilet. He almost seems to troll them on accident. Same result.
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![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
[scooter]
Footballguy
John Pickering was impeached in 1803 for being a drunkThe founders clearly did not intent for Congress to impeach based on any crime. That is historically documented. They stated Bribery and Treason as guidence to the type of crimes to consider for impeachment. Obstruction does not rise to that level if one is being honest about it.If only the Founders had given us some sort of guidance as to the possible application of impeachment to actions that don't amount to treason or bribery
Samuel Chase was impeached in 1804 for having a political bias
Most of the founders were still alive at that point. None of them said "Oooooh, we really shouldn't be using the powers of impeachment on these guys because neither of them committed crimes on the level of bribery or treason!"
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
You say there's no way anyone can be neutral on Trump.
Then people tell you that yes, it can happen and that they themselves are neutral on Trump.
Then you tell them they're wrong and it can't be so.
Classic
Mocking a bunch of racists for making up a story about his birth certificate was brilliant. Instead of getting pulled into their racist nonsense, he basically laughed at them every step of the way. I think I'm going to go watch him destroy Trump at the Correspondents Dinner. BRB
McJose
Footballguy
Awesome.
OK now all we have to do is figure out how to impeach Hillary who holds no office whatsoever.
I think it's important that we investigate private citizens walking her dog in the woods in Chappaqua.
McJose
Footballguy
Oh great. Now the Trump supporters are going to start calling for Ted Kennedy's impeachment.
Actually, lots of people raised concerns about Pickering because there were really no crimes he committed. But he had gone insane and was continuously drunk and was so out of control that no one really wanted to defend him, eventhough people realized he should not be impeached based on the Constitution.
matuski
Footballguy
That is the point.
Obama is/was brilliant, clever, and plainly playing on another level with his trolling.
What is weird is watching Trump achieve the same thing as an oaf who can't reliably make a tweet without screwing up.
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Difference is, Obama was subtle and destroyed people with a boyish smirk while seeming totally unaffected by the nonsense. Trump is like a three year old throwing a temper tantrum where everyone else is rounding up their children and shielding their eyes.
prefontaine
Footballguy
Whether you think it should be, precedent makes clear it is. Obstruction was among the articles of impeachment for both Nixon and Clinton.
While for Nixon there was never a vote, it was 27-11 to impeach for Obstruction in committee (the other two charges adopted were Abuse of Power and Contempt of Congress). Clinton was impeached on two charges - lying to a grand jury and obstruction of justice.
Six Senators voted Not Guilty on Clinton lying to a GJ but Guilty on Obstruction (meaning they voted to remove him from office solely for Obstruction of Justice). If a Senator thought Obstruction was not grounds for impeachment, they likely vote the other way (Not Guilty on Obstruction, Guilty on Lying). Yet not a single Senator voted this way.
As a side note, there aren't many Senators that are still around from the impeachment of Bill Clinton, but Chuck Grassley and Mitch McConnell both voted to convict on Obstruction.
matuski
Footballguy
I think you are agreeing with me.
Obama's subtlety and Trump's 3 year old tantrums - somehow achieving the same thing.
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