[DYNASTY] 2013 Top 20 Rookies (1 Viewer)

[Concept Coop]

From a character perspective Rogers and Gordon are night and day. Really just think those defending Rogers weren't following him as he fell off the cliff in Tennessee and the news is getting buried now. Zero denying his physical gifts, also zero denying some huge concerns north of his neck. As a fantasy owner, on board - just don't bring him anywhere near my NFL team.

Can someone just tell us what else he did?

He was involved in a bar fight with multiple UT players and had various verbal altercations with Derek Dooley. He was never officially booted off the team, he was suspended for the drug test and left around the same time Brown left. He hasn't been the only player to butt heads with Dooley.

I was aware of the failed drug tests, but not the bar fights. Thanks.

 

[MAC_32]

From a character perspective Rogers and Gordon are night and day. Really just think those defending Rogers weren't following him as he fell off the cliff in Tennessee and the news is getting buried now. Zero denying his physical gifts, also zero denying some huge concerns north of his neck. As a fantasy owner, on board - just don't bring him anywhere near my NFL team.

Can someone just tell us what else he did?

He was involved in a bar fight with multiple UT players and had various verbal altercations with Derek Dooley. He was never officially booted off the team, he was suspended for the drug test and left around the same time Brown left. He hasn't been the only player to butt heads with Dooley.

I think he had issues with more than just Dooley, assistants or athletic dept? Don't recall, but many were frustrated with Dooley that he only suspended him and didn't boot him for 'everything that he did.' Feeling was he didn't give the outright boot because he is just that special of a talent. Rogers walked a couple of days later - because of a bad follow up meeting with Dooley? or did Dooley tell him to just go? Didn't read. But the big takeaway I had was his issues extended beyond just Dooley, unlike others who butted heads with him in the past.

 

[BruceAlmighty]

Here's an article that explains it fairly well: http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/eye-on-college-football/19953928/darick-rogers-confirms-tennessee-departure-stemmed-from-a-couple-drug-testsAlso, Roy Adams, prominent UT alum and booster (guy that broke the Albert Means story) was on Paul Finebaum show defending Rogers after his departure. Adams also had a prominent verbal altercation with Dooley.

 

[BeTheMatch]

From a character perspective Rogers and Gordon are night and day. Really just think those defending Rogers weren't following him as he fell off the cliff in Tennessee and the news is getting buried now. Zero denying his physical gifts, also zero denying some huge concerns north of his neck. As a fantasy owner, on board - just don't bring him anywhere near my NFL team.

Can someone just tell us what else he did?

He was involved in a bar fight with multiple UT players and had various verbal altercations with Derek Dooley. He was never officially booted off the team, he was suspended for the drug test and left around the same time Brown left. He hasn't been the only player to butt heads with Dooley.

I was aware of the failed drug tests, but not the bar fights. Thanks.

There were also allegations made that in the ensuing melee of one of the bar fights he was involved in that he kicked and stomped a police officer who ended up in the hospital with severe injuries. No charges filed because no one could (or would) positively ID him as the one doing the actual kicking to the head.

 

[Tau837]

I personally believe there is valuable information that a shark should consider when preparing for a rookie draft that very few are taking into account. I'll give another example. About a month or two ago I had, what I thought, was a healthy debate with some knowledgable posters about Lache Seastrunk vs Stepfan Taylor. This was back when Seastrunk was first getting a significant amount of carries. I said I'd rather have Seastrunk because he was a 5 star prospect leaving high school. This was when the Bills played Miami on Thursday night, and Mike Mayock said about CJ Spiller, "some athletes wake up in the morning with a certain something that other backs will never have". I completely agree, and that "certain something" is usually evident early in a player's development. Prodigious talent is evident at an early age, whether it's mathematics, music, or running with a football. In sports we call them beasts, in other aspects we call them prodigies, savants or wunderkinds. Now, do 5 stars bust? Sure they do. Do some 3 and 4 stars achieve great success by hard work and determination? Undoubtedly. But the 5 stars have that "certain something" that the other prospects will never attain, no matter how hard they work. Again, I'm not advocating picking only 5 star high school prospects, but if I rank two players closely I would select the player that was a 5 star. Your due diligence should be the primary factor to take into account, but I think it foolhardy to not consider aspects such as regional trends and early scouting reports. I just believe those are some things that sharks should use that the average ff'er never considers.

Why use a player's high school body of work over his college body of work? It should be pretty easy to see who is a speical athlete and who isn't, regardless of what a recruting site had to say 3-4 years ago.Besides, we are drafting these players after the NFL has their say and invests in them. I would much rather put stock in what the NFL thinks about a player today, again, than a recruiting site thought about them when they were 17 years old.

Especially since high school recruiting ratings are influenced by factor that have nothing to do with the player's talent or body of work.

 

[BruceAlmighty]

From a character perspective Rogers and Gordon are night and day. Really just think those defending Rogers weren't following him as he fell off the cliff in Tennessee and the news is getting buried now. Zero denying his physical gifts, also zero denying some huge concerns north of his neck. As a fantasy owner, on board - just don't bring him anywhere near my NFL team.

Can someone just tell us what else he did?

He was involved in a bar fight with multiple UT players and had various verbal altercations with Derek Dooley. He was never officially booted off the team, he was suspended for the drug test and left around the same time Brown left. He hasn't been the only player to butt heads with Dooley.

I was aware of the failed drug tests, but not the bar fights. Thanks.

There were also allegations made that in the ensuing melee of one of the bar fights he was involved in that he kicked and stomped a police officer who ended up in the hospital with severe injuries. No charges filed because no one could (or would) positively ID him as the one doing the actual kicking to the head.

I don't remember that. I remember Jordan Jefferson (lsu qb) allegedly kicking someone in the head during a bar fight. I'll look again.

 

[BruceAlmighty]

Ok, there was a bar fight, off duty cop tried to break it up, fell down, a witness said they thought he was kicked in the head. But it apparently wasn't Rogers. Some witnesses said he didn't participate in the fight. All charges against him were dropped.http://m.govolsxtra.com/news/2010/sep/14/judge-dismisses-1-charge-against-vol-rogers-orders/

 

[Steed]

@ryanlownes: Taking another look today at one of my favorite players in this class, #OregonState WR Markus Wheaton. Top 5 WR on my board in a tight class

 

[Steed]

@ShanePHallam: Lots of teams talked with WR Markus Wheaton after practice including Vikings Ravens and CardinalsI know Houston was grilling him yesterday too

 

[EBF]

Wheaton tore it up on the first day. Pretty much every practice report said he was one of the standouts.This year's Doug Martin, except at WR instead of RB.

 

[tdmills]

Wheaton tore it up on the first day. Pretty much every practice report said he was one of the standouts.This year's Doug Martin, except at WR instead of RB.

I'm sure this has nothing to do with your biased opinion. He's a Pac 12 guy(aka you love him) and you had him listed at 1.1 in these rankings. Now you'll push anything to justify it.Here's his game vs Calhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5-DwyPWQj8If that guy is the 1.1, I'll eat my shoe.

 

[EBF]

Wheaton tore it up on the first day. Pretty much every practice report said he was one of the standouts.This year's Doug Martin, except at WR instead of RB.

I'm sure this has nothing to do with your biased opinion. He's a Pac 12 guy(aka you love him) and you had him listed at 1.1 in these rankings. Now you'll push anything to justify it.Here's his game vs Calhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5-DwyPWQj8If that guy is the 1.1, I'll eat my shoe.

Hard to be biased about a guy that I don't own in any leagues. I just call it like I see it. Andrew Luck and Jahvid Best have been the only two prospects from the Pac-12 to rank in my final top 10 in the last four draft classes. Last year I warned people that Robert Woods and Keenan Allen were overrated. I don't have any bias towards the Pac-12. Seeing as you're the guy who rostered every college prospect imaginable in our only common league, maybe you're the one who's biased.

 

[tdmills]

Wheaton tore it up on the first day. Pretty much every practice report said he was one of the standouts.This year's Doug Martin, except at WR instead of RB.

I'm sure this has nothing to do with your biased opinion. He's a Pac 12 guy(aka you love him) and you had him listed at 1.1 in these rankings. Now you'll push anything to justify it.Here's his game vs Calhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5-DwyPWQj8If that guy is the 1.1, I'll eat my shoe.

Hard to be biased about a guy that I don't own in any leagues. I just call it like I see it. Andrew Luck and Jahvid Best have been the only two prospects from the Pac-12 to rank in my final top 10 in the last four draft classes. Last year I warned people that Robert Woods and Keenan Allen were overrated. I don't have any bias towards the Pac-12. Seeing as you're the guy who rostered every college prospect imaginable in our only common league, maybe you're the one who's biased.

I'm biased because I owned college players in one league You're better than this.I'm simply saying you're trying to pump up Wheaton very often and you stuck your neck out that he's your guy. Now trying to justify it. I disagree and posted a video of him not looking like the 1.1 rookie pick.He's weak, not very strong after the catch. Doesn't have great agility. Looks like he tips off his routes. Body catches too much and doesn't attack the football. He has great speed IMO, but not the top WR.

 

[SayWhat?]

Wheaton tore it up on the first day. Pretty much every practice report said he was one of the standouts.This year's Doug Martin, except at WR instead of RB.

There were quite a few 1st day reports in the other 2013 prospects thread that didn't make much of a mention about Wheaton IIRC. What do you mean by being "this year's Doug Martin?" A draft riser who ends up getting selected in the 1st round? I'm not seeing it, though it wouldn't shock me if he moved himself up into that #40-50 range in the NFL draft. Regardless, I don't see any way he ends up as the 1.01 come May.

 

[MAC_32]

Wheaton tore it up on the first day. Pretty much every practice report said he was one of the standouts.This year's Doug Martin, except at WR instead of RB.

There were quite a few 1st day reports in the other 2013 prospects thread that didn't make much of a mention about Wheaton IIRC. What do you mean by being "this year's Doug Martin?" A draft riser who ends up getting selected in the 1st round? I'm not seeing it, though it wouldn't shock me if he moved himself up into that #40-50 range in the NFL draft. Regardless, I don't see any way he ends up as the 1.01 come May.

A guy that scouts really liked before December but the draft community didn't pick up on until January/February, eventually becomes a late round 1/early round 2 pick, and becomes a surprise 1st round dynasty rookie pick. Martin vaulted to 1.2 because he is a RB, Wheaton won't because of the position he plays, but somewhere between 4 and 7 isn't a crazy thought right now.I think Kendall Wright is a better comparison than Martin though.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Wheaton tore it up on the first day. Pretty much every practice report said he was one of the standouts.This year's Doug Martin, except at WR instead of RB.

I'm sure this has nothing to do with your biased opinion.

 

[EBF]

What do you mean by being "this year's Doug Martin?" A draft riser who ends up getting selected in the 1st round?

Yea, that's what I meant. Measuring at only 5'11" changes the equation a bit, but if he runs sub 4.4 at the combine then he still has a pretty decent shot.I agree that he won't be the 1.01 when the draft rolls around. People will take a chance on Lacy or Bernard if one of those guys goes high to a team with need. Patterson and Allen will also go higher in a lot of leagues. Let me reiterate that I'm not trying to predict draft order. I don't think Wheaton would be a candidate for 1.01 in most years. I would rate him more along the lines of someone like Kendall Wright than someone like Trent Richardson or Dez Bryant. This is a really weak skill player draft at the top though and he looks like one of the better players.

 

[EBF]

Watching the Senior Bowl south practice for a bit. 1-on-1 drills with the DBs. Good chance to see the WRs. Quinton Patton and Tavarres King look the best to me. Cobi Hamilton showing some promise. Terrance Williams has size and straight line speed. Not a precise runner though. Got smothered a couple times on short routes. Conner Vernon looks out of his depth.

 

[MAC_32]

Watching the Senior Bowl south practice for a bit. 1-on-1 drills with the DBs. Good chance to see the WRs. Quinton Patton and Tavarres King look the best to me. Cobi Hamilton showing some promise. Terrance Williams has size and straight line speed. Not a precise runner though. Got smothered a couple times on short routes. Conner Vernon looks out of his depth.

If King is looking strong then it is a good time to remind to take these practices with a large grain of salt. It's only a piece of the puzzle.

 

[menobrown]

The thing that worries me about Wheaton is that of the top 40 wrs in receiving yds this year exactly one played in the PAC-12. And that's Steve Smith, and Utah wasn't in the conference when he was there. I really like what Keenan Allen brings to the table, but that's a tough stat to explain away.

That's interesting and enough to be leery of simply liking a Pac-12 WR due to their college stats. Might make you want to dig deeper when evaluating a Pac-12 WR but I'd not be dismissive of them if you like their game anymore than I'd be higher on a WR simply because he went to Mount Union.

 

[Xue]

Wheaton tore it up on the first day. Pretty much every practice report said he was one of the standouts.This year's Doug Martin, except at WR instead of RB.

There were quite a few 1st day reports in the other 2013 prospects thread that didn't make much of a mention about Wheaton IIRC. What do you mean by being "this year's Doug Martin?" A draft riser who ends up getting selected in the 1st round? I'm not seeing it, though it wouldn't shock me if he moved himself up into that #40-50 range in the NFL draft. Regardless, I don't see any way he ends up as the 1.01 come May.

Plenty of positive reports if you know where to look: https://twitter.com/search/realtime?q=Markus+Wheaton&src=savs

 

[Steed]

@RosterWatch: #Bengals owner/GM Mike Brown was just taking to his scouts about Florida RB Mike Gilleslee. Likes him.

 

[cstu]

What do you mean by being "this year's Doug Martin?" A draft riser who ends up getting selected in the 1st round?

Yea, that's what I meant. Measuring at only 5'11" changes the equation a bit, but if he runs sub 4.4 at the combine then he still has a pretty decent shot.I agree that he won't be the 1.01 when the draft rolls around. People will take a chance on Lacy or Bernard if one of those guys goes high to a team with need. Patterson and Allen will also go higher in a lot of leagues. Let me reiterate that I'm not trying to predict draft order.

I don't think Wheaton would be a candidate for 1.01 in most years. I would rate him more along the lines of someone like Kendall Wright than someone like Trent Richardson or Dez Bryant. This is a really weak skill player draft at the top though and he looks like one of the better players.

The 40 time will be key. At his size he needs a good 40 time - at least in the low 4.4's. If he does that or even breaks into the 4.3's I think he's worth a late 1st fantasy pick.

 

[MAC_32]

What do you mean by being "this year's Doug Martin?" A draft riser who ends up getting selected in the 1st round?

Yea, that's what I meant. Measuring at only 5'11" changes the equation a bit, but if he runs sub 4.4 at the combine then he still has a pretty decent shot.I agree that he won't be the 1.01 when the draft rolls around. People will take a chance on Lacy or Bernard if one of those guys goes high to a team with need. Patterson and Allen will also go higher in a lot of leagues. Let me reiterate that I'm not trying to predict draft order.

I don't think Wheaton would be a candidate for 1.01 in most years. I would rate him more along the lines of someone like Kendall Wright than someone like Trent Richardson or Dez Bryant. This is a really weak skill player draft at the top though and he looks like one of the better players.

The 40 time will be key. At his size he needs a good 40 time - at least in the low 4.4's. If he does that or even breaks into the 4.3's I think he's worth a late 1st fantasy pick.

Disagree, he can't have an awful 40 time but he can get away with an average one. His game speed is evident on tape.

 

[cstu]

The thing that worries me about Wheaton is that of the top 40 wrs in receiving yds this year exactly one played in the PAC-12. And that's Steve Smith, and Utah wasn't in the conference when he was there. I really like what Keenan Allen brings to the table, but that's a tough stat to explain away.

That's interesting and enough to be leery of simply liking a Pac-12 WR due to their college stats. Might make you want to dig deeper when evaluating a Pac-12 WR but I'd not be dismissive of them if you like their game anymore than I'd be higher on a WR simply because he went to Mount Union.

NFL teams aren't using high picks on Pac-12 WR's - only 10 have been drafted in the first two rounds since 1998. The 1st rounders were total busts (Soward, Mitchell, Reggie William, BMW) but there's a pretty good hit rate on the 2nd rounders.

 

[cstu]

What do you mean by being "this year's Doug Martin?" A draft riser who ends up getting selected in the 1st round?

Yea, that's what I meant. Measuring at only 5'11" changes the equation a bit, but if he runs sub 4.4 at the combine then he still has a pretty decent shot.I agree that he won't be the 1.01 when the draft rolls around. People will take a chance on Lacy or Bernard if one of those guys goes high to a team with need. Patterson and Allen will also go higher in a lot of leagues. Let me reiterate that I'm not trying to predict draft order.

I don't think Wheaton would be a candidate for 1.01 in most years. I would rate him more along the lines of someone like Kendall Wright than someone like Trent Richardson or Dez Bryant. This is a really weak skill player draft at the top though and he looks like one of the better players.

The 40 time will be key. At his size he needs a good 40 time - at least in the low 4.4's. If he does that or even breaks into the 4.3's I think he's worth a late 1st fantasy pick.

Disagree, he can't have an awful 40 time but he can get away with an average one. His game speed is evident on tape.

I agree he looks fast on tape and he probably run it, but I'd be wary of drafting him if he run a 4.5 at the combine and puts up similarly mediocre measurables. I don't expect him to but guys can look faster on tape in college but than they really are. For me it's not whether Wheaton can play in the NFL but what kind of fantasy impact he can have.

 

[EBF]

As a prospect I rate him on par with guys like Kendall Wright and Santonio Holmes. Slightly below average size. Compensates with speed and athleticism. High floor. Modest ceiling. A pretty safe choice for teams needing WR help.

 

[BruceAlmighty]

The thing that worries me about Wheaton is that of the top 40 wrs in receiving yds this year exactly one played in the PAC-12. And that's Steve Smith, and Utah wasn't in the conference when he was there. I really like what Keenan Allen brings to the table, but that's a tough stat to explain away.

That's interesting and enough to be leery of simply liking a Pac-12 WR due to their college stats. Might make you want to dig deeper when evaluating a Pac-12 WR but I'd not be dismissive of them if you like their game anymore than I'd be higher on a WR simply because he went to Mount Union.

NFL teams aren't using high picks on Pac-12 WR's - only 10 have been drafted in the first two rounds since 1998. The 1st rounders were total busts (Soward, Mitchell, Reggie William, BMW) but there's a pretty good hit rate on the 2nd rounders.

That's sorta the point I was going after. The PAC-12 has produced hundreds of wrs in the last 10 years (I stopped at 10, you could probably go back further) and, for whatever reason, very few become good pros. Ochocinco and djax are above average, Keyshawn had 4 1000 yd seasons in 11 years but was older than the sample size I looked at. Housh was average at best. That's it. Two above average wrs in a decade or longer.

 

[EBF]

Nothing more than variance.There aren't any Pro Bowl QBs from the Big 12. Doesn't mean anything. It's just random variance in a small sample size.

 

[BruceAlmighty]

@RosterWatch: #Bengals owner/GM Mike Brown was just taking to his scouts about Florida RB Mike Gilleslee. Likes him.

This intrigues me. I was impressed with his performance against LSU, then I'd see him disappear in other games. For instance a 45 yd effort against Louisiana-Lafayette that Florida should've lost. He was certainly hampered by the lack of a passing game, but statlines like that are tough to ignore. That said, Cincy is a great situation for a rookie rb.

 

[BruceAlmighty]

Nothing more than variance.There aren't any Pro Bowl QBs from the Big 12. Doesn't mean anything. It's just random variance in a small sample size.

That's actually false. Vince Young was a pro bowler. Twice. And I don't understand how 10+ years is a small sample size.

 

[EBF]

Nothing more than variance.There aren't any Pro Bowl QBs from the Big 12. Doesn't mean anything. It's just random variance in a small sample size.

That's actually false. Vince Young was a pro bowler. Twice. And I don't understand how 10+ years is a small sample size.

10 years = 10 drafts = incredibly small sample size.What you're doing is like looking at ten hands of poker and thinking the results say anything about the odds in general. They don't. At any given time there are only a handful of elite players in the NFL at a given position. When you're dealing with such incredibly small sample sizes, they're extremely prone to variance. All it takes is one recruit getting injured, picking a non Pac-12 school, or slipping through the evaluation net to completely skew the results. Nevermind the fact that what you're saying is bunk anyway. Chad Johnson was one of the best WRs of his era. Top 30 all-time in receiving yards. 6 Pro Bowls. Probably not a Hall of Famer, but in the discussion. And DeSean Jackson finished as a top 30 WR three of the past four years, including a top 11 finish in 2009. There is absolutely nothing to the idea that the Pac-12 can't put out WRs (or any other position). I'd say the same for any other major conference about any other position.

 

[BruceAlmighty]

Nothing more than variance.There aren't any Pro Bowl QBs from the Big 12. Doesn't mean anything. It's just random variance in a small sample size.

That's actually false. Vince Young was a pro bowler. Twice. And I don't understand how 10+ years is a small sample size.

10 years = 10 drafts = incredibly small sample size.What you're doing is like looking at ten hands of poker and thinking the results say anything about the odds in general. They don't. At any given time there are only a handful of elite players in the NFL at a given position. When you're dealing with such incredibly small sample sizes, they're extremely prone to variance. All it takes is one recruit getting injured, picking a non Pac-12 school, or slipping through the evaluation net to completely skew the results. Nevermind the fact that what you're saying is bunk anyway. Chad Johnson was one of the best WRs of his era. Top 30 all-time in receiving yards. 6 Pro Bowls. Probably not a Hall of Famer, but in the discussion. And DeSean Jackson finished as a top 30 WR three of the past four years, including a top 11 finish in 2009. There is absolutely nothing to the idea that the Pac-12 can't put out WRs (or any other position). I'd say the same for any other major conference about any other position.

The first super bowl was played on January 15, 1967. That's 46 years ago. That is the complete sample. Ten years is 22 PERCENT OF THE ENTIRE SAMPLE. In the last almost full quarter since Super Bowl I the PAC-12 has produced two receivers that didn't suck. Your last two posts have been completely bunk, not mine sir.

 

[jdswan922]

Read this scouting report on Rogers:

http://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2013drogers.php

Also keep in mind these "concerns" are the same that we're being said about Josh Gordon last year. He's a big time recruit from the southeast that led the SEC in receiving as a sophomore. The only knock is that he smoked pot. He could fail drug tests in the future but this is a gamble I'm willing to take.

Just because you keep saying these things doesn't make them true. That is not the only knock. There was stuff all over the Internet and in newspaper articles about this guy that had nothing to do with pot. But you do whatever you want. I really don't care. But what you're saying simply is factually incorrect.

You got a link?

My link

So nothing is your response

 

[EBF]

http://www.nfl.com/seniorbowl/story/0ap1000000130235/article/markus-wheaton-lane-johnson-among-senior-bowl-standouts

Markus Wheaton, WR, Oregon State: Wheaton has been the most impressive receiver at the Senior Bowl -- by far. The Oregon State product has displayed excellent speed, quickness and burst, routinely separating from defenders out of breaks. Most impressively, Wheaton has shown strong hands; he is an outstanding pass catcher in traffic. By showcasing the capacity to make plays at every level, Wheaton has created quite a buzz in the NFL scouting community.

 

[lsutigers]

Markus Wheaton, WR, Oregon State: Wheaton has been the most impressive receiver at the Senior Bowl -- by far. The Oregon State product has displayed excellent speed, quickness and burst, routinely separating from defenders out of breaks. Most impressively, Wheaton has shown strong hands; he is an outstanding pass catcher in traffic. By showcasing the capacity to make plays at every level, Wheaton has created quite a buzz in the NFL scouting community.

When EBF speaks, I listen.

 

[Meecrob]

http://www.nfl.com/seniorbowl/story/0ap1000000130235/article/markus-wheaton-lane-johnson-among-senior-bowl-standouts

Markus Wheaton, WR, Oregon State: Wheaton has been the most impressive receiver at the Senior Bowl -- by far. The Oregon State product has displayed excellent speed, quickness and burst, routinely separating from defenders out of breaks. Most impressively, Wheaton has shown strong hands; he is an outstanding pass catcher in traffic. By showcasing the capacity to make plays at every level, Wheaton has created quite a buzz in the NFL scouting community.

Would love for Houston to draft him (in round 2).

 

[Fruitbat]

Proper sample sizes are not determined by the percentage of the total. The total is irrelevant. Whether there has been 46 Super Bowl seasons or 4600, the statistically necessary sample size is the same to make an inference about the entire set of data. In this case I am pretty confident that 10 seasons is statistically insignificant.

 

[Christo]

Nothing more than variance.There aren't any Pro Bowl QBs from the Big 12. Doesn't mean anything. It's just random variance in a small sample size.

Vince Young, RGIII, Kordell Stewart

 

[Donnybrook]

Wheaton weighed in at 71.0" and 183 today at the Senior Bowl.

It going to be interesting to see what DeAndre Hopkins official (combine) weight is? When I watched Oregon and Clemson respective bowl games, I got the impression that Hopkins and Wheaton were almost the exact same size.

 

[Concept Coop]

http://www.nfl.com/seniorbowl/story/0ap1000000130235/article/markus-wheaton-lane-johnson-among-senior-bowl-standouts

Markus Wheaton, WR, Oregon State: Wheaton has been the most impressive receiver at the Senior Bowl -- by far. The Oregon State product has displayed excellent speed, quickness and burst, routinely separating from defenders out of breaks. Most impressively, Wheaton has shown strong hands; he is an outstanding pass catcher in traffic. By showcasing the capacity to make plays at every level, Wheaton has created quite a buzz in the NFL scouting community.

You mention him not being ideal for the slot in the NFL. But do you see him being Steve Smith strong? And if not, how limiting will that be for him? Not many 183 pound guys can start on the outside and do well, outside of a Desean Jackson like role, and Wheaton doesn't have that speed.

 

[EBF]

You mention him not being ideal for the slot in the NFL. But do you see him being Steve Smith strong? And if not, how limiting will that be for him? Not many 183 pound guys can start on the outside and do well, outside of a Desean Jackson like role, and Wheaton doesn't have that speed.

His impact will probably be similar to someone like Santonio Holmes, who's below 5'11" and only 188 pounds. The golden rule of WRs is that if you're slow, you'd better be big. And if you're small, you'd better be fast. Wheaton runs track at OSU and probably has enough speed to thrive at his size. I expect a 40 time somewhere in the 4.35-4.40 range, which would put him right on par with guys like Holmes, Smith, and Jackson. There are other players in this draft with more FF upside. But without a slam dunk #1 WR or franchise RB in this draft, the safe pick of Wheaton is a viable option in the top 3-4 of a rookie. I would rate him about where I rated Kendall Wright last year. Slightly different dimensions and skills, but a similar overall value. He thrived on the outside in college and has been torching people all week at the Senior Bowl, so there's no reason to put him in the slot box. Bear in mind that most corners are only about 5'9"-5'11" themselves.

 

[Concept Coop]

His impact will probably be similar to someone like Santonio Holmes, who's below 5'11" and only 188 pounds. The golden rule of WRs is that if you're slow, you'd better be big. And if you're small, you'd better be fast. Wheaton runs track at OSU and probably has enough speed to thrive at his size. I expect a 40 time somewhere in the 4.35-4.40 range, which would put him right on par with guys like Holmes, Smith, and Jackson. There are other players in this draft with more FF upside. But without a slam dunk #1 WR or franchise RB in this draft, the safe pick of Wheaton is a viable option in the top 3-4 of a rookie. I would rate him about where I rated Kendall Wright last year. Slightly different dimensions and skills, but a similar overall value. He thrived on the outside in college and has been torching people all week at the Senior Bowl, so there's no reason to put him in the slot box. Bear in mind that most corners are only about 5'9"-5'11" themselves.

I want to value him more than I do, and personally, really hope he can play the slot and hold his own on the outside. Doing one or the other really hurts his ceiling. If he's not quick enough to play the slot at a very high level, and is not strong enough to prevent being pushed around at the LOS and present a target at all 3 levels, what is his role? He had better be DeSean Jackson fast, if that is the case. Holmes is 192 and Wright is 196. Both of them have right around 10 pounds on Wheaton. 10 pounds is a very big deal, and Wheaton was likely bulking up preparing for the weigh in. At this point, I'd much rather take a chance on 5-6 other WRs who don't have these questions, and think Wheaton is likely a 2nd round rookie pick. Just my opinion, and I do respect your call and have paid extra attention to him because of it.

 

[EBF]

Holmes was actually 188 at the combine:http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=10428&draftyear=2006&genpos=WRI know from personal experience that getting too hung up on marginal shortcomings in height and weight is an easy way to miss out on special players. I avoided DeSean Jackson in my leagues because I couldn't see a 5'9" 169 pound WR being effective as a full time starter in the NFL. But as guys like Spiller, Charles, McCoy, Holmes, or Jackson demonstrate, a small-ish player can be very successful if he has exceptional talent in other categories. Wheaton thrived on the outside at Oregon State. He's been thriving at the Senior Bowl against the best college players in the country. And if you read the practice reports, a lot of onlookers have praised his ability to make catches in traffic and adjust for contested balls. The idea that he'll suddenly struggle to do these same things when he gets to the next level is pure fantasy.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

How does you guys feel about Justin Blackmon Vs this crop of WRs? Would he still grade out as the #1 WR of this class too?

 

[Concept Coop]

Holmes was actually 188 at the combine:http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=10428&draftyear=2006&genpos=WRI know from personal experience that getting too hung up on marginal shortcomings in height and weight is an easy way to miss out on special players. I avoided DeSean Jackson in my leagues because I couldn't see a 5'9" 169 pound WR being effective as a full time starter in the NFL. But as guys like Spiller, Charles, McCoy, Holmes, or Jackson demonstrate, a small-ish player can be very successful if he has exceptional talent in other categories. Wheaton thrived on the outside at Oregon State. He's been thriving at the Senior Bowl against the best college players in the country. And if you read the practice reports, a lot of onlookers have praised his ability to make catches in traffic and adjust for contested balls. The idea that he'll suddenly struggle to do these same things when he gets to the next level is pure fantasy.

As I said, I respect the call. But questioning a 183lb WRs ability to start on the outside in the NFL is clearly not fantasy. I don't think I could name 5 such players in the NFL. Wheaton did great on the outside in college and did make catches in traffic. Maybe it translates. But will it be such that he is better than the next 2 guys on his NFL roster, who will likely be over 6' 195? Randall Cobb is a better football player than James Jones, but he's not better on the outside. Can he regularly beat press coverage and present a target at 5-9 yards? That is very hard to do in the NLF for guys his size. We'll see.

 

[Concept Coop]

How does you guys feel about Justin Blackmon Vs this crop of WRs? Would he still grade out as the #1 WR of this class too?

For me, yes. By a solid margin. I wouldn't be surprised if guys like Patterson/Hunter end up being better than him. But they are riskier than Blackmon was, in my opinion.

 

[EBF]

How does you guys feel about Justin Blackmon Vs this crop of WRs? Would he still grade out as the #1 WR of this class too?

I think he was a better prospect than any of these guys. He earned a top 5 slot in a loaded draft. Some people will say he was a reach there, but the fact that Jeff Fisher slammed his fist on the table when Jacksonville took him suggests otherwise.

 

[EBF]

Randall Cobb is a better football player than James Jones, but he's not better on the outside.

A dubious claim, but I'll leave that mess of a debate to the other thread. Cobb and Wheaton have shown different skills up to this point in their careers. Even dating back to college, Cobb has mainly been used to make plays in the middle of the field. He's shown a lot as a catch-and-run target, but remains a bit of an unknown quantity as an outside receiver. If you go and watch a Wheaton highlight reel, you'll notice that a lot of his big plays happen on the sidelines and/or downfield. He's already shown that he can be effective outside, so the idea that he'll suddenly stop being effective in this capacity because he's an inch shorter and 7 pounds lighter than ideal doesn't carry much weight with me.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-RkS8riVX0

 

[matttyl]

And a follow up to the Blackmon question, where would Josh Gordon rank in this crop of WRs (and I guess knowing what we know now including situation and team that got him)?