[DYNASTY] Matt Forte (1 Viewer)

[tdmills]

Schooled me in the Cutler thread....child please

Uh yeah, schooled you. Which is why you stopped replying.

You're really trying too hard to compensate for the bad calls of DeAngelo Williams, Chris Johnson, Felix Jones and others. I don't blame you really -- at least for the first two you took a big hit.

Felix Jones has been very impressive, when he's been healthy. He's still one of the most talented RBs to come out of that class, like I said.

In his two years in the league he has less than 700 total yards....7 receptions...4 TD's. He has no 100 yard games...and his YPC has went down a ton from last year...funny what blowing up last year vs the great defenses of Cinci, Cleveland, and GB will do to a hype machine

Other RB's from that Class:

Forte 2,600 total yards, 106 receptions, 15 tds

CJ 2,950 total yards, 73 receptions, 19 tds

Rice 1,900 total yards, 89 receptions, 7 tds

Mendy 850 total yards, 16 receptions, 5 tds

Mcfadden 1,000 total yards, 39 receptions, 5 tds

Charles 1,100 total yards, 50 receptions, 3 tds

Stewart 1,500 total yards, 21 receptions, 16 tds

Hightower 1,400 total yards, 81 receptions, 15 tds

Hillis 500 total yards, 18 receptions, 6 tds

K Smith 2,100 total yards, 71 receptions, 12 tds

Slaton 2,400 total yards, 87 receptions, 17 tds

Forsett 500 total yards, 29 receptions, 2 tds

Lets look at a guy on his own team

Choice 1,050 total yards, 36 receptions, 5 tds

He is hardly from the most productive from that class. Switz, you use the term most talented....that is relative term to each person. I believe that the above stats speak for themselves. He can only beat out Hillis and Forsett in production....total yards wise.

So when you want to talk about overrated with Forte....I would turn right back around and look at the other 11 RB's that are more productive than Felix Jones right now.

And all RB's get hurt at some time or another.....thats also part of being a football player....toughness.

 

[GULAM]

Schooled me in the Cutler thread....child please

Uh yeah, schooled you. Which is why you stopped replying.

You're really trying too hard to compensate for the bad calls of DeAngelo Williams, Chris Johnson, Felix Jones and others. I don't blame you really -- at least for the first two you took a big hit.

Felix Jones has been very impressive, when he's been healthy. He's still one of the most talented RBs to come out of that class, like I said.

In his two years in the league he has less than 700 total yards....7 receptions...4 TD's. He has no 100 yard games...and his YPC has went down a ton from last year...funny what blowing up last year vs the great defenses of Cinci, Cleveland, and GB will do to a hype machine

Other RB's from that Class:

Forte 2,600 total yards, 106 receptions, 15 tds

CJ 2,950 total yards, 73 receptions, 19 tds

Rice 1,900 total yards, 89 receptions, 7 tds

Mendy 850 total yards, 16 receptions, 5 tds

Mcfadden 1,000 total yards, 39 receptions, 5 tds

Charles 1,100 total yards, 50 receptions, 3 tds

Stewart 1,500 total yards, 21 receptions, 16 tds

Hightower 1,400 total yards, 81 receptions, 15 tds

Hillis 500 total yards, 18 receptions, 6 tds

K Smith 2,100 total yards, 71 receptions, 12 tds

Slaton 2,400 total yards, 87 receptions, 17 tds

Forsett 500 total yards, 29 receptions, 2 tds

Lets look at a guy on his own team

Choice 1,050 total yards, 36 receptions, 5 tds

He is hardly from the most productive from that class. Switz, you use the term most talented....that is relative term to each person. I believe that the above stats speak for themselves. He can only beat out Hillis and Forsett in production....total yards wise.

So when you want to talk about overrated with Forte....I would turn right back around and look at the other 11 RB's that are more productive than Felix Jones right now.

And all RB's get hurt at some time or another.....thats also part of being a football player....toughness.

You just got owned!

 

[switz]

Felix Jones has been very impressive, when he's been healthy. He's still one of the most talented RBs to come out of that class, like I said.

He is hardly from the most productive from that class. Switz, you use the term most talented....that is relative term to each person. I believe that the above stats speak for themselves. He can only beat out Hillis and Forsett in production....total yards wise. So when you want to talk about overrated with Forte....I would turn right back around and look at the other 11 RB's that are more productive than Felix Jones right now.

And all RB's get hurt at some time or another.....thats also part of being a football player....toughness.

Keep trying. Actually, no, stop wasting people's time in this thread with posts like this. I'm not going to bother replying anymore, so I don't waste their time either.If you can't see the flaw in your reply, there's no sense in trying to point it out, since you clearly are just looking to try to start something.

Post about Forte or go away.

 

[rock753]

Felix Jones has been very impressive, when he's been healthy. He's still one of the most talented RBs to come out of that class, like I said.

He is hardly from the most productive from that class. Switz, you use the term most talented....that is relative term to each person. I believe that the above stats speak for themselves. He can only beat out Hillis and Forsett in production....total yards wise. So when you want to talk about overrated with Forte....I would turn right back around and look at the other 11 RB's that are more productive than Felix Jones right now.

And all RB's get hurt at some time or another.....thats also part of being a football player....toughness.

Keep trying. Actually, no, stop wasting people's time in this thread with posts like this. I'm not going to bother replying anymore, so I don't waste their time either.If you can't see the flaw in your reply, there's no sense in trying to point it out, since you clearly are just looking to try to start something.

Post about Forte or go away.

 

[switz]

Post about Forte or go away.

I was trying to get the thread back on track. Have you any input on Forte?

 

[corpcow]

It's quite simple: talent != production. Rather, talent + opportunity/circumstance = production. Thus, any argument that relies on the presence or lack of production to "prove" talent one way or another is flawed.

 

[tdmills]

Felix Jones has been very impressive, when he's been healthy. He's still one of the most talented RBs to come out of that class, like I said.

He is hardly from the most productive from that class. Switz, you use the term most talented....that is relative term to each person. I believe that the above stats speak for themselves. He can only beat out Hillis and Forsett in production....total yards wise. So when you want to talk about overrated with Forte....I would turn right back around and look at the other 11 RB's that are more productive than Felix Jones right now.

And all RB's get hurt at some time or another.....thats also part of being a football player....toughness.

Keep trying. Actually, no, stop wasting people's time in this thread with posts like this. I'm not going to bother replying anymore, so I don't waste their time either.If you can't see the flaw in your reply, there's no sense in trying to point it out, since you clearly are just looking to try to start something.

Post about Forte or go away.

Okay so your wrong and then defensive about it..... Its okay to admit your wrong Switz.....even another user stated you got owned.

Like I said redundant with you.

 

[switz]

It's quite simple: talent != production. Rather, talent + opportunity/circumstance = production. Thus, any argument that relies on the presence or lack of production to "prove" talent one way or another is flawed.

I wish there was an :EXCELLENT POSTING: emoticon! I just wish some people in this thread understood your point.Forte has been productive from an FF perspective, there's no argument there. But he hasn't displayed a high level of talent, and if the team didn't have more pressing needs elsewhere, he would be replaced sooner than later. However, the team does have pressing needs elsewhere, doesn't have high picks, and thus Forte won't see a replacement drafted soon. However, his carries and touches will be threatened by other RBs on the roster, and quite possible an FA addition in the offseason.

Given a superb OL he might have decent production on a per carry basis, but he's not good enough to make things happen on his own. Other RBs playing behind equally bad (maybe worse) OLs are performing much better.

 

[tdmills]

It's quite simple: talent != production. Rather, talent + opportunity/circumstance = production. Thus, any argument that relies on the presence or lack of production to "prove" talent one way or another is flawed.

I wish there was an :EXCELLENT POSTING: emoticon! I just wish some people in this thread understood your point.Forte has been productive from an FF perspective, there's no argument there. But he hasn't displayed a high level of talent, and if the team didn't have more pressing needs elsewhere, he would be replaced sooner than later. However, the team does have pressing needs elsewhere, doesn't have high picks, and thus Forte won't see a replacement drafted soon. However, his carries and touches will be threatened by other RBs on the roster, and quite possible an FA addition in the offseason.

Given a superb OL he might have decent production on a per carry basis, but he's not good enough to make things happen on his own. Other RBs playing behind equally bad (maybe worse) OLs are performing much better.

If you could state one fact in their Switz that would be great.It is all opinion based......he doesn't have high level talent(that is relative to each persons opinion), he will be replaced sooner rather than later......etc.

 

[golfguy]

just seems to me that forte is running a little timid to the hole rather then bursting into like last year. i think maybe something is wrong there. i mean i know the bears line is aweful, however, he still doesn't show the same burst. it's like he keeps expecting to get met in the backfield.

 

[tdmills]

And switz...please don't PM me that garbage.

I would love to see other users thinking I am ridiculous...etc. Oh and that I created other alias' to reinstate my point is hillarious as well.

 

[tdmills]

just seems to me that forte is running a little timid to the hole rather then bursting into like last year. i think maybe something is wrong there. i mean i know the bears line is aweful, however, he still doesn't show the same burst. it's like he keeps expecting to get met in the backfield.

I completely agree with this.....it looks similiar to Benson in his last year in Chicago. Forte seems to be looking for the cutback too much(like a lot of RB's), being impatient, and diving forward instead of keeping his feet.....but he is not playing bad.The age of Kruetz and Garza is really starting to show.....many defenders getting penetration in the middle of the line(anyone who has watched a game has seen this).I suspect that Chicago will have a couple new starters on the Oline next year.My guess is LT- Chris Williams, LG- Beekman, C- Kruetz, RG- ???, RT- Omiyale. With Beekman and Kruetz replaced possibly as well.

 

[switz]

It's quite simple: talent != production. Rather, talent + opportunity/circumstance = production. Thus, any argument that relies on the presence or lack of production to "prove" talent one way or another is flawed.

I wish there was an :EXCELLENT POSTING: emoticon! I just wish some people in this thread understood your point.Forte has been productive from an FF perspective, there's no argument there. But he hasn't displayed a high level of talent, and if the team didn't have more pressing needs elsewhere, he would be replaced sooner than later. However, the team does have pressing needs elsewhere, doesn't have high picks, and thus Forte won't see a replacement drafted soon. However, his carries and touches will be threatened by other RBs on the roster, and quite possible an FA addition in the offseason.

Given a superb OL he might have decent production on a per carry basis, but he's not good enough to make things happen on his own. Other RBs playing behind equally bad (maybe worse) OLs are performing much better.

If you could state one fact in their Switz that would be great.It is all opinion based......he doesn't have high level talent(that is relative to each persons opinion), he will be replaced sooner rather than later......etc.

You're correct that it is my opinion. And when dealing with Forte's future, unless someone has the ability to foretell the future, everyone has only an opinion.As far as talent goes, there are measureables used to evaluate talent to a degree, there is production per opportunity that can be used to evaluate talent, and of course it is all subjective.

However, most of the more respected talent evaluators on this board, in college, and in the NFL, view(ed) Forte as an average talent. This can be seen by where he was evaluated in comparison to other RBs in his class. It can be seen in that he only garnered one THIRD TEAM All-American award. In HS he was only SECOND TEAM All-State for Louisiana. And despite his "production" he only received ONE ROY vote. Chris Johnson got the second most votes, despite "producing" 10 less yards rushing, and about 200 less yards receiving (on about 80 fewer touches).

There are some facts for you, do with them what you wish.

 

[switz]

And switz...please don't PM me that garbage.I would love to see other users thinking I am ridiculous...etc. Oh and that I created other alias' to reinstate my point is hillarious as well.

Just trying to save you some embarrassment.

 

[Ghost Rider]

And switz...please don't PM me that garbage.I would love to see other users thinking I am ridiculous...etc. Oh and that I created other alias' to reinstate my point is hillarious as well.

Just trying to save you some embarrassment.

Too bad no one PM'd you, to save you some embarrassment, eh?

 

[switz]

And switz...please don't PM me that garbage.I would love to see other users thinking I am ridiculous...etc. Oh and that I created other alias' to reinstate my point is hillarious as well.

Just trying to save you some embarrassment.

Too bad no one PM'd you, to save you some embarrassment, eh?

Pretty sure there's no need. Come back when you have something valid to add to the Forte debate.

 

[tdmills]

And switz...please don't PM me that garbage.I would love to see other users thinking I am ridiculous...etc. Oh and that I created other alias' to reinstate my point is hillarious as well.

Just trying to save you some embarrassment.

Too bad no one PM'd you, to save you some embarrassment, eh?

haha...oh wait....Switz you will probably come back with this is yet another one of my alias though right?How do I make all of these accounts?

 

[switz]

Here's the huge vote of confidence Forte owners were looking for:

''First off, you know Matt did some good things last night,'' coach Lovie Smith said. ''I know his yardage -- the rushing total --didn't say that, but I liked the way he hit the holes.

''You need more than one good running back. We've even played three good running backs around here, so to answer your question, I do see Kahlil continuing to be a part of our offense, and with production like that, why not?''

 

[tdmills]

It's quite simple: talent != production. Rather, talent + opportunity/circumstance = production. Thus, any argument that relies on the presence or lack of production to "prove" talent one way or another is flawed.

I wish there was an :EXCELLENT POSTING: emoticon! I just wish some people in this thread understood your point.Forte has been productive from an FF perspective, there's no argument there. But he hasn't displayed a high level of talent, and if the team didn't have more pressing needs elsewhere, he would be replaced sooner than later. However, the team does have pressing needs elsewhere, doesn't have high picks, and thus Forte won't see a replacement drafted soon. However, his carries and touches will be threatened by other RBs on the roster, and quite possible an FA addition in the offseason.

Given a superb OL he might have decent production on a per carry basis, but he's not good enough to make things happen on his own. Other RBs playing behind equally bad (maybe worse) OLs are performing much better.

If you could state one fact in their Switz that would be great.It is all opinion based......he doesn't have high level talent(that is relative to each persons opinion), he will be replaced sooner rather than later......etc.

You're correct that it is my opinion. And when dealing with Forte's future, unless someone has the ability to foretell the future, everyone has only an opinion.As far as talent goes, there are measureables used to evaluate talent to a degree, there is production per opportunity that can be used to evaluate talent, and of course it is all subjective.

However, most of the more respected talent evaluators on this board, in college, and in the NFL, view(ed) Forte as an average talent. This can be seen by where he was evaluated in comparison to other RBs in his class. It can be seen in that he only garnered one THIRD TEAM All-American award. In HS he was only SECOND TEAM All-State for Louisiana. And despite his "production" he only received ONE ROY vote. Chris Johnson got the second most votes, despite "producing" 10 less yards rushing, and about 200 less yards receiving (on about 80 fewer touches).

There are some facts for you, do with them what you wish.

More respected talent evaluators on this board....thats a funny comment.College and NFL....all of those evaluators miss talent year after year....Colston...etc.

But he did get a vote for ROY.....which does give him justice to being talented by at least one talent evaluator. Does that mean that everyone not voted for is not talented?

Measureables Forte 6'2 222, 4.46, 23 reps at 225, 33 inch vertical jump, 4.23 20 yard shuttle. Pretty impressive measurables if you ask me.

Combared to Felix Jones 4.47, 8 reps at 225, 33 inch vert, 4.19 20 yard shuttle.

Or Moreno 4.62, 25 reps at 225, 25.5 inch vert, 4.27 20 yard shuttle.

 

[EBF]

Forte's combine numbers were average at best. Certainly not on par with the best players in his class or the best RB prospects of recent years. Compare his results to Peterson, Tomlinson, Stewart, or Johnson and you'll see a huge gap.

 

[switz]

You're correct that it is my opinion. And when dealing with Forte's future, unless someone has the ability to foretell the future, everyone has only an opinion.

As far as talent goes, there are measureables used to evaluate talent to a degree, there is production per opportunity that can be used to evaluate talent, and of course it is all subjective.

However, most of the more respected talent evaluators on this board, in college, and in the NFL, view(ed) Forte as an average talent. This can be seen by where he was evaluated in comparison to other RBs in his class. It can be seen in that he only garnered one THIRD TEAM All-American award. In HS he was only SECOND TEAM All-State for Louisiana. And despite his "production" he only received ONE ROY vote. Chris Johnson got the second most votes, despite "producing" 10 less yards rushing, and about 200 less yards receiving (on about 80 fewer touches).

There are some facts for you, do with them what you wish.

More respected talent evaluators on this board....thats a funny comment.College and NFL....all of those evaluators miss talent year after year....Colston...etc.

But he did get a vote for ROY.....which does give him justice to being talented by at least one talent evaluator. Does that mean that everyone not voted for is not talented?

Actually, his only getting one vote despite his production isn't a positive. Given his production, he should have garnered more votes, but in the context of how many attempts it took, he wasn't evaluated as highly as the other players. Interestingly, Felix Jones, who you like to bring up, won a number of weekly rookie awards prior to injury, despite a low number of opportunities.

Measureables Forte 6'2 222, 4.46, 23 reps at 225, 33 inch vertical jump, 4.23 20 yard shuttle. Pretty impressive measurables if you ask me.

Combared to Felix Jones 4.47, 8 reps at 225, 33 inch vert, 4.19 20 yard shuttle.

Or Moreno 4.62, 25 reps at 225, 25.5 inch vert, 4.27 20 yard shuttle.

One thing to note about combine numbers in general, is it's just one day. There are also pro days, and a lot of film. I know most scouts look at combine numbers to confirm what they see on film, not to determine if a player is good or bad.Having said that, Forte had a very comparable combine than Jones, but I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that Forte is faster than Jones - which is what the combine measurement says. So you are in a conundrum if you stick to combine numbers, since 40, vert, and shuttle would indicate Jones and Forte are equal talents. If you agree, then you must think Jones is as talented as Forte. Or you have to say the combine numbers aren't really a good basis for arguing.

I think combine number need to be correlated with other measureables, like YPC, level of competition, etc.

Forte just doens't add up to an above average talent when all things are considered IMO.

Of course, we can go around and around about our opinons, which we've been doing. I actually wonder though, what your opinion of Forte is, since I don't see you stating one. Perhaps I missed it.

 

[switz]

Forte's combine numbers were average at best. Certainly not on par with the best players in his class or the best RB prospects of recent years. Compare his results to Peterson, Tomlinson, Stewart, or Johnson and you'll see a huge gap.

Even Addai - who many feel is just average.

 

[tdmills]

Forte's combine numbers were average at best. Certainly not on par with the best players in his class or the best RB prospects of recent years. Compare his results to Peterson, Tomlinson, Stewart, or Johnson and you'll see a huge gap.

I agree.....but they aren't average or bad measurable is my point.Stewart wasn't that much higher than Forte at the combine 4.48, 28 reps, 36 inch vert.

 

[switz]

Forte's combine numbers were average at best. Certainly not on par with the best players in his class or the best RB prospects of recent years. Compare his results to Peterson, Tomlinson, Stewart, or Johnson and you'll see a huge gap.

I agree.....but they aren't average or bad measurable is my point.Stewart wasn't that much higher than Forte at the combine 4.48, 28 reps, 36 inch vert.

Bench press isn't a strong correlation to success IIRC. EBF would probably know for sure.

 

[EBF]

Stewart wasn't that much higher than Forte at the combine 4.48, 28 reps, 36 inch vert.

Bench press is virtually irrelevant for RBs. Reggie Bush benched more than some of the OL prospects in his class. Does that make him a strong runner? No. The guy couldn't break a tackle to save his life. Arm strength and upper body strength have limited value at the RB position. These guys make their living by running. What matters is their leg strength, footwork, speed, burst, and lower body explosiveness. The most important drills for this position are the 40, the vertical jump, and the broad jump. Compare Forte to other top RB prospects and you'll see that he doesn't stack up.Matt Forte

40 - 4.44

Vertical - 33"

Broad Jump - 9'10"

Chris Johnson

40 - 4.24

Vertical - 35"

Broad Jump - 10'10"

Jonathan Stewart

40 - 4.46

Vertical - 36.5"

Broad Jump - 10'8"

Adrian Peterson

40 - 4.40

Vertical - 38.5"

Broad Jump - 10'7"

The gap is pretty apparent here. Stewart jumped 3.5 inches higher in the vertical jump and 10 inches farther in the broad jump despite having shorter legs (a natural handicap in the broad jump) and 18 extra pounds of mass on his frame. Chris Johnson ran much faster, jumped higher, and jumped an entire foot farther (once again despite being significantly shorter). Adrian Peterson is very similar to Forte in terms of build. Both were roughly 6'1" and 217 pounds at the time of their combine testing. Compare their numbers. Peterson ran faster, jumped higher, and jumped farther. Peterson's numbers are consistent with what you would expect from an elite athlete at the RB position. Forte's numbers are not. His 40 time is good, but his marks in the jumps do not provide any evidence of exceptional lower body burst or explosiveness.

That said, combine numbers are only one piece of the puzzle. Occasionally you will see a back who bombs the combine and still becomes a productive pro. Frank Gore, LeSean McCoy, and Cedric Benson all performed significantly worse than Forte in workouts. That hasn't prevented them from having some success on the football field. I'm willing to overlook mediocre combine numbers if a player is able to prove that he can overcome them and still produce great results in games. The problem with Forte is that his combine numbers suggest he's a mediocre talent and his performance on the football field corroborates this.

This goes back to what I've been saying since page one. There is literally nothing about Forte which suggests he's anything other than mediocre. He doesn't have exceptional athletic gifts. He hasn't produced above average results on the field. Until his performance improves, there's no reason to view him as anything more than a mediocre compiler whose success is almost entirely the result of his opportunity.

 

[SSOG]

Forte's combine numbers were average at best. Certainly not on par with the best players in his class or the best RB prospects of recent years. Compare his results to Peterson, Tomlinson, Stewart, or Johnson and you'll see a huge gap.

I agree.....but they aren't average or bad measurable is my point.Stewart wasn't that much higher than Forte at the combine 4.48, 28 reps, 36 inch vert.

There is a massive, massive difference between 5'11"/235/4.48 and 6'2"/222/4.46. Forte's got a significantly smaller frame (both lighter *AND* taller), which should be accompanied by a significant increase in speed... but it isn't. Stewart is really, really, really fast for a guy his size. Forte is moderately slow for a guy his size.Also, Bench Reps aren't much of a measure for an RB. Arm strength never hurts, but leg strength is what will ultimately determine success or failure at the NFL level. That's why EBF swears by the broad jump, since it's the best drill at the combine to measure leg strength and explosiveness. Stewart broad jumped 10'8", which is obscene for a man his size- Chris Johnson only managed two inches more. McFadden only matched him, and Felix Jones came up 4 inches short. Forte, despite being taller, lighter, and faster, posted a 9'10" broad jump, a good 10 inches shy of Stewart's mark.Edit: Shoulda known that EBF would beat me to it.

 

[corpcow]

Forte's combine numbers were average at best. Certainly not on par with the best players in his class or the best RB prospects of recent years. Compare his results to Peterson, Tomlinson, Stewart, or Johnson and you'll see a huge gap.

I agree.....but they aren't average or bad measurable is my point.Stewart wasn't that much higher than Forte at the combine 4.48, 28 reps, 36 inch vert.

Bench press isn't a strong correlation to success IIRC. EBF would probably know for sure.

Let's put it this way - at my prime, I benched 225 more than most NFL players... and I'm not in the NFL

 

[switz]

And just FYI tdmills - when I mention more respected talent evaluators, I refer to EBF and SSOG. Even if we disagree, and we do on a lot, they know their stuff, and they have my respect.

 

[SSOG]

And just FYI tdmills - when I mention more respected talent evaluators, I refer to EBF and SSOG. Even if we disagree, and we do on a lot, they know their stuff, and they have my respect.

I definitely wouldn't call myself a great evaluator of talent. I can make some crude attempts on the subject, but for the most part I feel like my strengths lie more in the trend-spotting, market reading, and informational synthesis departments. While I am working on talent evaluation and learning what to look for and learning to trust my eyes, a large percentage of my own talent evaluations is relying on guys like EBF, F&L, Chaos Commish, Mike Tanier, etc.

 

[switz]

And just FYI tdmills - when I mention more respected talent evaluators, I refer to EBF and SSOG. Even if we disagree, and we do on a lot, they know their stuff, and they have my respect.

I definitely wouldn't call myself a great evaluator of talent. I can make some crude attempts on the subject, but for the most part I feel like my strengths lie more in the trend-spotting, market reading, and informational synthesis departments. While I am working on talent evaluation and learning what to look for and learning to trust my eyes, a large percentage of my own talent evaluations is relying on guys like EBF, F&L, Chaos Commish, Mike Tanier, etc.

Those guys are pretty good a well. Obviously no one is 100%, but those guys hit way more often than they miss.

 

[rock753]

Post about Forte or go away.

:(

I was trying to get the thread back on track. Have you any input on Forte?

Weren't you the one to start talking about Felix Jones??

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Tell you what... I'm indifferent to Switz (have no idea at all about the guy), but if he's right about Felix I hope he crows like a ******-******* rooster for the next yen years. You guys are ridiculous.

 

[Football Jones]

This thread has gone out of control. It's really too bad.

I realize Forte isn't the most talented RB in the league, but it's pretty evident he's dramatically undervalued by a bunch of folks when it comes to FF...& that's what we play here. I'm not saying Forte is a HoF RB. He is a tremendous FF RB for the foreseeable future, though. He's RB12 in my standard PPR league, & that's with just about everything going wrong that possibly could, including him being dinged (he definitely had a lower body injury that was bugging him earlier in the year & it possibly could still be a factor). You don't see the upside there? I'm not sure it'll happen, but he could easily finish higher than RB12 if their OL can get going.

Forte hasn't been worth where he was drafted this season, but a blind man could see that. It doesn't take a genius to make that assessment. What do you do now (in dynasty leagues going forward)? That's the real question. I'm buying.

Talent is only as good as how it relates to FF. That means some more talented RBs will be lesser FF RBs. Sometimes markedly so. Real-world football is a different conversation entirely. There's many, many things that go into a top-notch FFer, but one of the main skills is adjusting real world talent to FF. I believe one of the biggest mistakes people make in FF is basing their entire player evaluation on real-world talent. There are times that could be a smart play, but in too many others, it's the wrong thing to do. Obviously, real-world talent is a big part of the package, but too often FF value is neglected or not given enough attention.

We've made such a big deal of this, but it simply comes down to one side believes Forte is an average real-world RB who believes that will eventually catch up to him at some point & the other side believes he's an above-average RB who excels as a FF RB. I'm generalizing, but that's the gist of the two sides. We're making too much of this & the thread has deteriorated as a result.

It's not about being right or wrong on one player, but it is about being right on the vast majority of your player evaluations. And no matter who's right, both sides can profit. If you end up on the wrong side, adjust. Buy or sell. Bob & weave. Jumping on prospects before your competition, catching trends before your competition, adjusting to changes in real-world football as it relates to FF. Those skills are the qualities that make up a top-notch FFer.

 

[Football Jones]

Combine numbers are what they are...one of the tools. Forte certainly has more than acceptable combine numbers. You could even call them good. Good enough that he was drafted in the 2nd round in a league enfatuated with the Combine. Combine numbers can be misleading, as well. Tons of examples there.

BTW, I've got an idea for something good that can come out of this thread. I always look for passion when looking for a good dynasty league, & we definitely have passion in this thread. You never really know about someone's FF ability until you play with them for awhile, but the prerequisite to a good player is passion...& we have that here.

Whatever side you're on, if you've posted a few times in this thread & would like to play in what should be a top-notch dynasty league, PM me. Hopefully, someone will volunteer for Commissioner because my plate if pretty full. We can figure that out later. The only requirement I have is for it to be a money league. Nothing against free leagues, but I choose not to play in them. I'd prefer a standard H2H PPR with at least one or two "points wildcard" spots, but the rules can be discussed.

 

[Instinctive]

Stop making this about Sitz (I don't much like most of his stuff either) and bring it back to Forte...Where's the guy who said Grant coudn't hold his jock? Conveniently diappear after that one?

You want this to stop being about Switz.....yet you continually try to make it about Ryan Grant???

One statement, a follow up, that goes to credibility of a poster.We could also go back to talking about how none of us think Tim Hightower is worthy of a first rounder in PPR when he averages less than 0.1 ppg less than Forte? (meaning the same thing...)I was mainly using various inconsistencies and flaws to point out that Forte is/was absouletly not worth a first round pick.

 

[corpcow]

I realize Forte isn't the most talented RB in the league, but it's pretty evident he's dramatically undervalued by a bunch of folks when it comes to FF...&

Dude, seriously? The whole point of this thread was that many were treating him as a top 3-5 overall dynasty back, and top 10 overall dynasty pick in most leagues. Whether or not he is talented enough to keep the job long term or whether he will improve with a better O-line - he is most certainly not being UNDERVALUED. He is being valued as if he will perform as a top 5 RB consistently, and he's currently RB15 in non-PPR leagues.

Please explain how in the hell that is being undervalued?

 

[Football Jones]

I realize Forte isn't the most talented RB in the league, but it's pretty evident he's dramatically undervalued by a bunch of folks when it comes to FF...&

Dude, seriously? The whole point of this thread was that many were treating him as a top 3-5 overall dynasty back, and top 10 overall dynasty pick in most leagues. Whether or not he is talented enough to keep the job long term or whether he will improve with a better O-line - he is most certainly not being UNDERVALUED. He is being valued as if he will perform as a top 5 RB consistently, and he's currently RB15 in non-PPR leagues.

Please explain how in the hell that is being undervalued?

Come on, LOL. It's not that hard to understand. I've already said a blind man could see Forte hasn't lived up to this year's ADP. I'm talking dynasty...I thought everyone knew that. Going forward, he's tremendously undervalued by a lot of folks. He's RB12 in standard PPR leagues & everything in the world has gone wrong. If you don't see the upside going forward (dynasty), then you don't see it. And I guess that's why we have two sides to this issue. Like I said, there's a lot of passion here. The perfect makings of a top-notch dynasty league, IMO. I do hope we get it going for 2010. We don't have to start anytime soon, though. Lots of time to organize.

 

[Football Jones]

Instinctive,

I'm the guy who said Grant couldn't hold Forte's jock. I've been here all along. I certainly haven't disappeared. Stuff like this is one reason the thread has broken down.

Anyway, yes, I have Forte ranked quite a bit higher in dynasty leagues. For instance, I'm buying Forte & selling Grant (I don't own Grant in a dynasty league, but if I did, I'd look to sell).

 

[Instinctive]

Instinctive,I'm the guy who said Grant couldn't hold Forte's jock. I've been here all along. I certainly haven't disappeared. Stuff like this is one reason the thread has broken down.Anyway, yes, I have Forte ranked quite a bit higher in dynasty leagues. For instance, I'm buying Forte & selling Grant (I don't own Grant in a dynasty league, but if I did, I'd look to sell).

I didn't bring it up to discuss Grant is was a directed attack at your credibility, along with the Higtower comment.On a completely off topic tangent....I like the idea of a dynasty league with this group - I'd be in for sure if it started.Where do you value Forte at, in dynasty perspective? Just so I know where you're coming from and don't make an irrelevant point...and because I think there are 10 guys I'd rather have than Forte in a dynasty, easily. Probably a lot more but after 15 or so it would get less clear cut.Adrian PetersonDeAngelo WilliamsJonathan StewartBeanie WellsChris JohnsonSteven JacksonMaurice Jones-DrewRay RiceMichael Turner (and I hate Turner compared to most)Frank GoreThat's ten right off the top of my head, I may come back with a more comprehensive list. Those are no particular order. I think the biggest problem with Forte is that you will get top half RB2 production, for 2 years or so, and the Bears will by then replace him, moving him to elite third down back most likely. I think not this year, and maybe not next - but then I would be worried owning him.

 

[switz]

Post about Forte or go away.

I was trying to get the thread back on track. Have you any input on Forte?

Weren't you the one to start talking about Felix Jones??

Ummm, no. Someone else brought him up first IIRC.

 

[two_dollars]

Stewart wasn't that much higher than Forte at the combine 4.48, 28 reps, 36 inch vert.

Bench press is virtually irrelevant for RBs. Reggie Bush benched more than some of the OL prospects in his class. Does that make him a strong runner? No. The guy couldn't break a tackle to save his life. Arm strength and upper body strength have limited value at the RB position. These guys make their living by running. What matters is their leg strength, footwork, speed, burst, and lower body explosiveness. The most important drills for this position are the 40, the vertical jump, and the broad jump. Compare Forte to other top RB prospects and you'll see that he doesn't stack up.Matt Forte

40 - 4.44

Vertical - 33"

Broad Jump - 9'10"

Chris Johnson

40 - 4.24

Vertical - 35"

Broad Jump - 10'10"

Jonathan Stewart

40 - 4.46

Vertical - 36.5"

Broad Jump - 10'8"

Adrian Peterson

40 - 4.40

Vertical - 38.5"

Broad Jump - 10'7"

Nice to see those numbers laid out like that. I didn't know Forte was so low.

Hell, at 18 I had a 34" vertical and broad jumped a 10'2", but could only muster a 4.74 dash.

2 out of my 3 beat Forte! Of course, being 6'3" helps with the broad jump, and 4.74 wasn't cutting it as a safety soooo.. yeah I got stuck in DIII haha!

Peterson's vertical is ridiculous. And CJ's numbers, being shorter do help me realize he does have some strong if not springy legs.

I'd like to see them add some kind of a "stiff-arm" drill for RB's.

 

[Football Jones]

Instinctive,

I'm the guy who said Grant couldn't hold Forte's jock. I've been here all along. I certainly haven't disappeared. Stuff like this is one reason the thread has broken down.

Anyway, yes, I have Forte ranked quite a bit higher in dynasty leagues. For instance, I'm buying Forte & selling Grant (I don't own Grant in a dynasty league, but if I did, I'd look to sell).

I didn't bring it up to discuss Grant is was a directed attack at your credibility, along with the Higtower comment.

Huh? What Hightower comment? I'm confused. And you're wondering about my credibility because we disagree on Forte & Grant? That doesn't make much sense, but ok, LOL.As far as where I'd put Forte, I'm not prepared to make a ranking right now, but I can assure you he'll be much higher on my list than yours. If you want a broad ranking, I'd say unless something changes, Forte is easily in my top-7 or 8 RBs going forward in PPR leagues (2010 & beyond). I won't have to draft him there next year (I can get him later), but that's about where I'd rank him.

As far as the prospective league, Herm23 has contacted me & might be willing to Commish. I'll put you down on the list.

"Matt Forte" League

Football Jones

Herm23

Instinctive

 

[corpcow]

I realize Forte isn't the most talented RB in the league, but it's pretty evident he's dramatically undervalued by a bunch of folks when it comes to FF...&

Dude, seriously? The whole point of this thread was that many were treating him as a top 3-5 overall dynasty back, and top 10 overall dynasty pick in most leagues. Whether or not he is talented enough to keep the job long term or whether he will improve with a better O-line - he is most certainly not being UNDERVALUED. He is being valued as if he will perform as a top 5 RB consistently, and he's currently RB15 in non-PPR leagues.

Please explain how in the hell that is being undervalued?

Come on, LOL. It's not that hard to understand. I've already said a blind man could see Forte hasn't lived up to this year's ADP. I'm talking dynasty...I thought everyone knew that. Going forward, he's tremendously undervalued by a lot of folks. He's RB12 in standard PPR leagues & everything in the world has gone wrong. If you don't see the upside going forward (dynasty), then you don't see it. And I guess that's why we have two sides to this issue. :X Like I said, there's a lot of passion here. The perfect makings of a top-notch dynasty league, IMO. I do hope we get it going for 2010. We don't have to start anytime soon, though. Lots of time to organize.

Of course we're talking about dynasty... as I said, "many were treating him as a top 3-5 overall dynasty back". That's the valuation that EBF and myself and others were reacting to. Even now, looking at trades that have gone down in the past month or two, he's still valued as let's say a top 6-8 dynasty back. (E.g., I saw one owner trade Jonathan Stewart, Andre Johnson, Mario Williams, a LB3 that I can't remember now and a couple of picks for Crabtree and Forte. I saw another go for two 1sts and two 2nds). I mean, I respect that we can have differences of opinions. Does he have upside from RB12 in a PPR league? Sure. But even now when his market value is at its lowest (remember, this thread dates back to the offseason when his value was the highest), he's not being valued as RB12 - he's being valued as a RB5-6 at worst. His upside at that price is very limited. In many ways, his "upside" is his market price, and thus I would consider him overvalued.

 

[corpcow]

"Matt Forte" League

Football Jones

Herm23

Instinctive

In if it's IDP...

 

[Football Jones]

"Matt Forte" League

Football Jones

Herm23

Instinctive

In if it's IDP...

I can appreciate IDP leagues, but I don't play in them. Since all my leagues are non-IDP, I'd much prefer not to add a new format, thus, increasing my study time. I barely have time enough for all my FF activities as it is. I want it to be a real basic H2H PPR dynasty league with no contracts. When you're getting up a league like this, I believe simpler is better. My only other prerequisites are it be a money league (preferably at least $100) & have at least one, maybe two "points wildcard" spots. I'd prefer a 14-team league because that works out best as far as scheduling, but I'd be open to a 12-teamer.

 

[gianmarco]

Reading the 1st page of this thread is fun.........

 

[Instinctive]

"Matt Forte" League

Football Jones

Herm23

Instinctive

In if it's IDP...

I can appreciate IDP leagues, but I don't play in them. Since all my leagues are non-IDP, I'd much prefer not to add a new format, thus, increasing my study time. I barely have time enough for all my FF activities as it is. I want it to be a real basic H2H PPR dynasty league with no contracts. When you're getting up a league like this, I believe simpler is better. My only other prerequisites are it be a money league (preferably at least $100) & have at least one, maybe two "points wildcard" spots. I'd prefer a 14-team league because that works out best as far as scheduling, but I'd be open to a 12-teamer.

mm I can't do another money league. I'm out.

 

[Football Jones]

"Matt Forte" League

Football Jones

Herm23

Instinctive

In if it's IDP...

I can appreciate IDP leagues, but I don't play in them. Since all my leagues are non-IDP, I'd much prefer not to add a new format, thus, increasing my study time. I barely have time enough for all my FF activities as it is. I want it to be a real basic H2H PPR dynasty league with no contracts. When you're getting up a league like this, I believe simpler is better. My only other prerequisites are it be a money league (preferably at least $100) & have at least one, maybe two "points wildcard" spots. I'd prefer a 14-team league because that works out best as far as scheduling, but I'd be open to a 12-teamer.

mm I can't do another money league. I'm out.

It doesn't look like it's going to happen, anyway. Maybe it'll catch hold in the offseason. I hope so. I'd love to get this going.

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

Forte's combine numbers were average at best. Certainly not on par with the best players in his class or the best RB prospects of recent years. Compare his results to Peterson, Tomlinson, Stewart, or Johnson and you'll see a huge gap.

Ray Rice's weren't great either, combine numbers aren't everything - start of the conversation, but not the end, and no reason to dismiss a guy out of hand. Rice's burst looks better now than it ever did at Rutgers.

 

[Football Jones]

Forte's combine numbers were average at best. Certainly not on par with the best players in his class or the best RB prospects of recent years. Compare his results to Peterson, Tomlinson, Stewart, or Johnson and you'll see a huge gap.

Ray Rice's weren't great either, combine numbers aren't everything - start of the conversation, but not the end, and no reason to dismiss a guy out of hand. Rice's burst looks better now than it ever did at Rutgers.

I couldn't agree more. You really have to be careful how much stock you put into Combine numbers. They not only can be misleading, they can be down right deceitful.