Eli Manning to suck in the NFL (1 Viewer)

[Liquid Tension]

Also, the Giants do not have a defense or offensive players that can match up against what Rivers or Big Ben have to work with. We all know this is a team game.

I agree with regard to coaching but the Giants have an above average defense this season, had an above average defense in '05 and all three of them have played with pro-bowl RB's. I don't think Eli's receivers are any worse than the receivers SD/PIT have had. SD's OL had one good season but has been very poor this season. I don't think PIT's pass blocking has been all that great since Ben came into the league, it just takes more than one defender to tackle him.If you look at the group I posted I think Losman has played the best with the weakest supporting cast. He put up a passer rating of 85 without much to work with besides Lee Evans.

The talent on the Giants offense is terrible this year; much worse than all the teams you are stating. Shockey has been a shell of his former self and even his former self was always injured. There is not a worse #2 or #3 WR in football than on the Giants.

 

[redman]

Also, the Giants do not have a defense or offensive players that can match up against what Rivers or Big Ben have to work with. We all know this is a team game.

I agree with regard to coaching but the Giants have an above average defense this season, had an above average defense in '05 and all three of them have played with pro-bowl RB's. I don't think Eli's receivers are any worse than the receivers SD/PIT have had. SD's OL had one good season but has been very poor this season. I don't think PIT's pass blocking has been all that great since Ben came into the league, it just takes more than one defender to tackle him.If you look at the group I posted I think Losman has played the best with the weakest supporting cast. He put up a passer rating of 85 without much to work with besides Lee Evans.

The talent on the Giants offense is terrible this year; much worse than all the teams you are stating. Shockey has been a shell of his former self and even his former self was always injured. There is not a worse #2 or #3 WR in football than on the Giants.

It seems to me that the Jaguars could give some argument about WR depth, and they have David Garrard doing quite well for them.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Also, the Giants do not have a defense or offensive players that can match up against what Rivers or Big Ben have to work with. We all know this is a team game.

I agree with regard to coaching but the Giants have an above average defense this season, had an above average defense in '05 and all three of them have played with pro-bowl RB's. I don't think Eli's receivers are any worse than the receivers SD/PIT have had. SD's OL had one good season but has been very poor this season. I don't think PIT's pass blocking has been all that great since Ben came into the league, it just takes more than one defender to tackle him.If you look at the group I posted I think Losman has played the best with the weakest supporting cast. He put up a passer rating of 85 without much to work with besides Lee Evans.

The talent on the Giants offense is terrible this year; much worse than all the teams you are stating. Shockey has been a shell of his former self and even his former self was always injured. There is not a worse #2 or #3 WR in football than on the Giants.

It seems to me that the Jaguars could give some argument about WR depth, and they have David Garrard doing quite well for them.

First, there is NO 2nd WR worse than Toomer in football. Not only is he the slowest WR, he does not come back for balls and drops way too many. Sinorice Moss is so bad that he can't even wrestle the job from Toomer and gets banged up when the wind blows on him. Steve Smith will be good IMO, but he has yet to play for 3 games.The Jacksonville OL is better and they have been consistent with the same RB's all year while the Giants have had a new one every week (almost)Can someone look at 4th quarter comebacks and see how many times Eli has led the team back? He is very good late in the game

 

[BoltBacker]

I see this different. I see that Mr. Pickles said Eli Manning would suck and Mr. Pickles is clearly wrong. if you still think he sucks than you don't understand the game of football. Now if you use the work suck to mean average or slightly above average then you would be correct.

I'm usually one of the people defending Eli but it really depends on what you mean by "suck". He was the #1 overall pick and has never had a QB rating over 77 for a season over the course of three and a half seasons. If you take into consideration he was the #1 pick and is paid like it I don't think you could describe that performance as average. If you take into consideration what the franchise gave up to get him then yeah, he might suck.I expect him to have several good years when he's surrounded by different coaches and in a different city but he hasn't proven he can have a QB rating of better than 77 yet. People say Rivers "sucks" and he's had QB ratings of 92 and 80 in his two seasons as a starter. Plus he didn't cost the franchise nearly as much to acquire as Manning cost the NYG.It all depends on what your expectations are when you apply the term "sucks".

First QB rating is not a very good judgment for rating QB's. Guys that dink and dunk will always have better ratings (Chad Pennington is the God of that).

Completely disagree.Pennington is a "dink and dunk" type guy? Then why has he averaged 7.1y/a when Elie has a 6.3y/a over his career? The reason Chad Pennington has done well in QB rating is his QB/INT ratio has always been positive his career and that's the most important stat. The only years where Pennington has been over an 85 it's because he's had big ratios like 22/6 and 16/9.The only reason people don't like QB rating is because it doesn't translate to FF very well. There is no reward for throwing the football 50 times a game. If a QB is very efficient he'll look much better than a Kurt Warner that turns the ball over three times forcing his team to pass the ball for 500 yards in a loss. But I'd argue QB rating represents how a QB performs much more than his fantasy #'s.

 

[BoltBacker]

Also, the Giants do not have a defense or offensive players that can match up against what Rivers or Big Ben have to work with. We all know this is a team game.

I agree with regard to coaching but the Giants have an above average defense this season, had an above average defense in '05 and all three of them have played with pro-bowl RB's. I don't think Eli's receivers are any worse than the receivers SD/PIT have had. SD's OL had one good season but has been very poor this season. I don't think PIT's pass blocking has been all that great since Ben came into the league, it just takes more than one defender to tackle him.If you look at the group I posted I think Losman has played the best with the weakest supporting cast. He put up a passer rating of 85 without much to work with besides Lee Evans.

The talent on the Giants offense is terrible this year; much worse than all the teams you are stating. Shockey has been a shell of his former self and even his former self was always injured. There is not a worse #2 or #3 WR in football than on the Giants.

... and Eli Manning has been a starter for the past THREE seasons. Over those THREE years he's played with plenty of probowlers on offense.I'm curious, who is this great #2 receiver on the Bills that allowed Losman to outperform Eli by a wide margin last season? For anyone to try and spin BUF REC>NYG REC for the past two years takes a LOT of work. I don't buy it. How many QB's do have a good #2 WR?? Is Toomer that much worse than Josh Reed? Vincent Jackson? Kevin Walter?I think Eli will play much better at some point in the future but I just won't buy the "he hasn't had any talent around him" argument.

 

[Liquid Tension]

I see this different. I see that Mr. Pickles said Eli Manning would suck and Mr. Pickles is clearly wrong. if you still think he sucks than you don't understand the game of football. Now if you use the work suck to mean average or slightly above average then you would be correct.

I'm usually one of the people defending Eli but it really depends on what you mean by "suck". He was the #1 overall pick and has never had a QB rating over 77 for a season over the course of three and a half seasons. If you take into consideration he was the #1 pick and is paid like it I don't think you could describe that performance as average. If you take into consideration what the franchise gave up to get him then yeah, he might suck.I expect him to have several good years when he's surrounded by different coaches and in a different city but he hasn't proven he can have a QB rating of better than 77 yet. People say Rivers "sucks" and he's had QB ratings of 92 and 80 in his two seasons as a starter. Plus he didn't cost the franchise nearly as much to acquire as Manning cost the NYG.It all depends on what your expectations are when you apply the term "sucks".

First QB rating is not a very good judgment for rating QB's. Guys that dink and dunk will always have better ratings (Chad Pennington is the God of that).

Completely disagree.Pennington is a "dink and dunk" type guy? Then why has he averaged 7.1y/a when Elie has a 6.3y/a over his career? The reason Chad Pennington has done well in QB rating is his QB/INT ratio has always been positive his career and that's the most important stat. The only years where Pennington has been over an 85 it's because he's had big ratios like 22/6 and 16/9.The only reason people don't like QB rating is because it doesn't translate to FF very well. There is no reward for throwing the football 50 times a game. If a QB is very efficient he'll look much better than a Kurt Warner that turns the ball over three times forcing his team to pass the ball for 500 yards in a loss. But I'd argue QB rating represents how a QB performs much more than his fantasy #'s.

I am not talking about fantasy at all. Are you honestly saying that Pennington does not throw WAY more short passes than Eli? The only part I agree with what you wrote is that teh QB rating is boosted for a good INT ratio.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Also, the Giants do not have a defense or offensive players that can match up against what Rivers or Big Ben have to work with. We all know this is a team game.

I agree with regard to coaching but the Giants have an above average defense this season, had an above average defense in '05 and all three of them have played with pro-bowl RB's. I don't think Eli's receivers are any worse than the receivers SD/PIT have had. SD's OL had one good season but has been very poor this season. I don't think PIT's pass blocking has been all that great since Ben came into the league, it just takes more than one defender to tackle him.If you look at the group I posted I think Losman has played the best with the weakest supporting cast. He put up a passer rating of 85 without much to work with besides Lee Evans.

The talent on the Giants offense is terrible this year; much worse than all the teams you are stating. Shockey has been a shell of his former self and even his former self was always injured. There is not a worse #2 or #3 WR in football than on the Giants.

... and Eli Manning has been a starter for the past THREE seasons. Over those THREE years he's played with plenty of probowlers on offense.I'm curious, who is this great #2 receiver on the Bills that allowed Losman to outperform Eli by a wide margin last season? For anyone to try and spin BUF REC>NYG REC for the past two years takes a LOT of work. I don't buy it. How many QB's do have a good #2 WR?? Is Toomer that much worse than Josh Reed? Vincent Jackson? Kevin Walter?I think Eli will play much better at some point in the future but I just won't buy the "he hasn't had any talent around him" argument.

I disagree.I watch every Giant play (and then watch every play again and sometimes 3-4 times to see what happened) like myself and a large group of Giant fans. Think about their team right now, who is a pass threat on their offense? Not only that their OL is a very bad pass blocking unit (They are a solid run blocking unit)BTW, Toomer just came off of his best game of the year and he still CAUSED an INT by not coming to back to a ball and instead actually went away from the ball allowing the defender to step right in front of him for a big pick. That was a HORRIBLE play that a rookie shouldn't make, let a lone and incredibly slow receiver that gets NO separation.

 

[BoltBacker]

I see this different. I see that Mr. Pickles said Eli Manning would suck and Mr. Pickles is clearly wrong. if you still think he sucks than you don't understand the game of football. Now if you use the work suck to mean average or slightly above average then you would be correct.

I'm usually one of the people defending Eli but it really depends on what you mean by "suck". He was the #1 overall pick and has never had a QB rating over 77 for a season over the course of three and a half seasons. If you take into consideration he was the #1 pick and is paid like it I don't think you could describe that performance as average. If you take into consideration what the franchise gave up to get him then yeah, he might suck.I expect him to have several good years when he's surrounded by different coaches and in a different city but he hasn't proven he can have a QB rating of better than 77 yet. People say Rivers "sucks" and he's had QB ratings of 92 and 80 in his two seasons as a starter. Plus he didn't cost the franchise nearly as much to acquire as Manning cost the NYG.It all depends on what your expectations are when you apply the term "sucks".

First QB rating is not a very good judgment for rating QB's. Guys that dink and dunk will always have better ratings (Chad Pennington is the God of that).

Completely disagree.Pennington is a "dink and dunk" type guy? Then why has he averaged 7.1y/a when Elie has a 6.3y/a over his career? The reason Chad Pennington has done well in QB rating is his QB/INT ratio has always been positive his career and that's the most important stat. The only years where Pennington has been over an 85 it's because he's had big ratios like 22/6 and 16/9.The only reason people don't like QB rating is because it doesn't translate to FF very well. There is no reward for throwing the football 50 times a game. If a QB is very efficient he'll look much better than a Kurt Warner that turns the ball over three times forcing his team to pass the ball for 500 yards in a loss. But I'd argue QB rating represents how a QB performs much more than his fantasy #'s.

I am not talking about fantasy at all. Are you honestly saying that Pennington does not throw WAY more short passes than Eli? The only part I agree with what you wrote is that teh QB rating is boosted for a good INT ratio.

????I'm honestly saying that every time Chad Pennington has attempted a pass he has averaged 7.1 yards per that attempt. Everytime Eli drops back to pass he averages 6.3 yards per that attempt. Pennington is getting more yards per attempt than Eli.I'm glad you agree that the QB rating is "boosted for a good INT ratio".... can we also agree that a good INT ratio is also boosted for winning in the NFL?

 

[BoltBacker]

Also, the Giants do not have a defense or offensive players that can match up against what Rivers or Big Ben have to work with. We all know this is a team game.

I agree with regard to coaching but the Giants have an above average defense this season, had an above average defense in '05 and all three of them have played with pro-bowl RB's. I don't think Eli's receivers are any worse than the receivers SD/PIT have had. SD's OL had one good season but has been very poor this season. I don't think PIT's pass blocking has been all that great since Ben came into the league, it just takes more than one defender to tackle him.If you look at the group I posted I think Losman has played the best with the weakest supporting cast. He put up a passer rating of 85 without much to work with besides Lee Evans.

The talent on the Giants offense is terrible this year; much worse than all the teams you are stating. Shockey has been a shell of his former self and even his former self was always injured. There is not a worse #2 or #3 WR in football than on the Giants.

... and Eli Manning has been a starter for the past THREE seasons. Over those THREE years he's played with plenty of probowlers on offense.I'm curious, who is this great #2 receiver on the Bills that allowed Losman to outperform Eli by a wide margin last season? For anyone to try and spin BUF REC>NYG REC for the past two years takes a LOT of work. I don't buy it. How many QB's do have a good #2 WR?? Is Toomer that much worse than Josh Reed? Vincent Jackson? Kevin Walter?I think Eli will play much better at some point in the future but I just won't buy the "he hasn't had any talent around him" argument.

I disagree.I watch every Giant play (and then watch every play again and sometimes 3-4 times to see what happened) like myself and a large group of Giant fans. Think about their team right now, who is a pass threat on their offense? Not only that their OL is a very bad pass blocking unit (They are a solid run blocking unit)BTW, Toomer just came off of his best game of the year and he still CAUSED an INT by not coming to back to a ball and instead actually went away from the ball allowing the defender to step right in front of him for a big pick. That was a HORRIBLE play that a rookie shouldn't make, let a lone and incredibly slow receiver that gets NO separation.

Again, so Josh Reed/Vincent Jackson/Kevin Walter are all much better #2 WR's than Toomer? Is that the gist of your argument?

 

[Popinski]

Eli Manning is struggling to prove he is even an average NFL QB, and this is coming from a Giants fan. The argument that he has nothing around him is ridiculous. He has had the opportunity to play with one of the better receiving corps in the league (Barber, Burress, Shockey) and a pretty good pass blocking offensive line (which is not poor as earlier suggested).

He is not an accurate thrower. His pocket presence is poor. On any particular play, he is painfully slow in moving his focus from his #1 target to his other options. And in the face of pressure, he throws it to Plaxico regardless of how many defenders are covering Burress. He also takes drive-killing losses on sacks instead of trying to throw it away.

Take away his last name and he wouldn't still be the Giants starting QB. Actually, take away his last name, and he wouldn't have been drafted in the first round and perhaps not even given a start yet. That draft-day trade with San Diego has set this franchise back and what makes me sick is that Giants' management probably still expects Eli to become one of the league's better QBs.

I wonder how Eli would be faring with the mid 90s Giants skill players - Rodney Hampton, Howard Cross, Chris Calloway, Thomas Lewis? Actually, I'd rather not think about it.

 

[Liquid Tension]

I see this different. I see that Mr. Pickles said Eli Manning would suck and Mr. Pickles is clearly wrong. if you still think he sucks than you don't understand the game of football. Now if you use the work suck to mean average or slightly above average then you would be correct.

I'm usually one of the people defending Eli but it really depends on what you mean by "suck". He was the #1 overall pick and has never had a QB rating over 77 for a season over the course of three and a half seasons. If you take into consideration he was the #1 pick and is paid like it I don't think you could describe that performance as average. If you take into consideration what the franchise gave up to get him then yeah, he might suck.I expect him to have several good years when he's surrounded by different coaches and in a different city but he hasn't proven he can have a QB rating of better than 77 yet. People say Rivers "sucks" and he's had QB ratings of 92 and 80 in his two seasons as a starter. Plus he didn't cost the franchise nearly as much to acquire as Manning cost the NYG.It all depends on what your expectations are when you apply the term "sucks".

First QB rating is not a very good judgment for rating QB's. Guys that dink and dunk will always have better ratings (Chad Pennington is the God of that).

Completely disagree.Pennington is a "dink and dunk" type guy? Then why has he averaged 7.1y/a when Elie has a 6.3y/a over his career? The reason Chad Pennington has done well in QB rating is his QB/INT ratio has always been positive his career and that's the most important stat. The only years where Pennington has been over an 85 it's because he's had big ratios like 22/6 and 16/9.The only reason people don't like QB rating is because it doesn't translate to FF very well. There is no reward for throwing the football 50 times a game. If a QB is very efficient he'll look much better than a Kurt Warner that turns the ball over three times forcing his team to pass the ball for 500 yards in a loss. But I'd argue QB rating represents how a QB performs much more than his fantasy #'s.

I am not talking about fantasy at all. Are you honestly saying that Pennington does not throw WAY more short passes than Eli? The only part I agree with what you wrote is that teh QB rating is boosted for a good INT ratio.

????I'm honestly saying that every time Chad Pennington has attempted a pass he has averaged 7.1 yards per that attempt. Everytime Eli drops back to pass he averages 6.3 yards per that attempt. Pennington is getting more yards per attempt than Eli.I'm glad you agree that the QB rating is "boosted for a good INT ratio".... can we also agree that a good INT ratio is also boosted for winning in the NFL?

Yes.As for Pennington, his Ol is a good pass protecting unit and has been during his time. The YPA is based on YAC as Pennington is the king of dink and dunk.

 

[Ted Lange as your Bartender]

But the commercials say he's UNSTOPPABLE!!!

 

[Liquid Tension]

Also, the Giants do not have a defense or offensive players that can match up against what Rivers or Big Ben have to work with. We all know this is a team game.

I agree with regard to coaching but the Giants have an above average defense this season, had an above average defense in '05 and all three of them have played with pro-bowl RB's. I don't think Eli's receivers are any worse than the receivers SD/PIT have had. SD's OL had one good season but has been very poor this season. I don't think PIT's pass blocking has been all that great since Ben came into the league, it just takes more than one defender to tackle him.If you look at the group I posted I think Losman has played the best with the weakest supporting cast. He put up a passer rating of 85 without much to work with besides Lee Evans.

The talent on the Giants offense is terrible this year; much worse than all the teams you are stating. Shockey has been a shell of his former self and even his former self was always injured. There is not a worse #2 or #3 WR in football than on the Giants.

... and Eli Manning has been a starter for the past THREE seasons. Over those THREE years he's played with plenty of probowlers on offense.I'm curious, who is this great #2 receiver on the Bills that allowed Losman to outperform Eli by a wide margin last season? For anyone to try and spin BUF REC>NYG REC for the past two years takes a LOT of work. I don't buy it. How many QB's do have a good #2 WR?? Is Toomer that much worse than Josh Reed? Vincent Jackson? Kevin Walter?I think Eli will play much better at some point in the future but I just won't buy the "he hasn't had any talent around him" argument.

I disagree.I watch every Giant play (and then watch every play again and sometimes 3-4 times to see what happened) like myself and a large group of Giant fans. Think about their team right now, who is a pass threat on their offense? Not only that their OL is a very bad pass blocking unit (They are a solid run blocking unit)BTW, Toomer just came off of his best game of the year and he still CAUSED an INT by not coming to back to a ball and instead actually went away from the ball allowing the defender to step right in front of him for a big pick. That was a HORRIBLE play that a rookie shouldn't make, let a lone and incredibly slow receiver that gets NO separation.

Again, so Josh Reed/Vincent Jackson/Kevin Walter are all much better #2 WR's than Toomer? Is that the gist of your argument?

Yes along with a terrible OL from a pass protecting standpoint. Think about how little team speed the Giants have and if you ever watch a Giant game watch how LITTLE separation any of the WR's get. BTW, stating Vincent Jackson is a joke because you have Gates who is a stud and LT2 is probably a better receiver than any Giant. The #2 in Buffalo is weak, but I would take Reed over Toomer who has been painful the last 2 years. He is the slowest receiver in football, who drops passes and doesn't fight or come back to a ball. I know Reed is not very good either. I happen to think Lee Evans is a great weapon though with his speed to stretch the defense.The gist is also that QB rating is not the best measure of QB's. I mean taking a sack rather than throwing the ball away helps your QB rating...that isn't smart football. Trying to get a 1st down on 3rd and 15 from the 50 yard line and throwing a pick 40 yards down field or trying to complete a 20 yard pass that falls incomplete is smarter than dumping down for a 6 yard gain that helps your QB rating. When stats in football are so reliant on other players, any measurement has some flaws. BTW, Eli is not a scrambler so this does not help my argument, but QB rating does not take scrambling into effect.

 

[Despyzer]

Again, so Josh Reed/Vincent Jackson/Kevin Walter are all much better #2 WR's than Toomer? Is that the gist of your argument?

Yes

Okay, at this point I think we can call this fight. BB wins in an 8th round KO.

 

[Tom Servo]

Again, so Josh Reed/Vincent Jackson/Kevin Walter are all much better #2 WR's than Toomer? Is that the gist of your argument?

Yes

Okay, at this point I think we can call this fight. BB wins in an 8th round KO.

DOWN GOES TENSION!! DOWN GOES TENSION!!! DOWN GOES TENSION!!!!

 

[Liquid Tension]

Eli Manning is struggling to prove he is even an average NFL QB, and this is coming from a Giants fan. The argument that he has nothing around him is ridiculous. He has had the opportunity to play with one of the better receiving corps in the league (Barber, Burress, Shockey) and a pretty good pass blocking offensive line (which is not poor as earlier suggested).He is not an accurate thrower. His pocket presence is poor. On any particular play, he is painfully slow in moving his focus from his #1 target to his other options. And in the face of pressure, he throws it to Plaxico regardless of how many defenders are covering Burress. He also takes drive-killing losses on sacks instead of trying to throw it away.Take away his last name and he wouldn't still be the Giants starting QB. Actually, take away his last name, and he wouldn't have been drafted in the first round and perhaps not even given a start yet. That draft-day trade with San Diego has set this franchise back and what makes me sick is that Giants' management probably still expects Eli to become one of the league's better QBs.I wonder how Eli would be faring with the mid 90s Giants skill players - Rodney Hampton, Howard Cross, Chris Calloway, Thomas Lewis? Actually, I'd rather not think about it.

Wow, the only thing you say that I agree with is the trade was a terrible one (I thought it was at the time and Eli would have had to play great to make it a good one). Since when is Shockey a reliable target or a guy who can stay on the field? He is a middle of the pack guy at best when you look at his injury history. He has failed to see blitzes and kept running down field when he should have check off to a short pass or stopped his route and caused 3 Eli picks this year. Calling the Giant OL pass protection good is grossly wrong. He has been hit straight on with nobody blocking a guy way more than other QB's. Let me rephrase this, for a QB that is going to the playoffs, name one QB who gets hit as much as Eli? The only guy who is close is Roethlisberger and he is a better QB than Eli (and the guy they should have drafted).The problem is not that it is Eli's name or anything else, the problem is that he can never and won't live up to the amount the Giants gave up to get him on the team. But, if you step back and evaluate his play with the schemes and what is on their team he is a slightly above average QB. if Eli was as bad as you think, don't you believe some of the backups they have had would have stepped in would and looked better? In preseason every one of them has looked MUCH worse than Eli? That is because the QB's on this team can't look very good. Also, remember that Eli has led the team on many GW drives (wasn't he one of the leaders in 4th Q comebacks?)I do want to state that I would like to see more consistency from Eli and do not think he has played well, but when receivers drop 10 passes in one game and then on a terrible day he throws an absolutely perfect 50 yard pass to Steve Smith and he drops it, he doesn't get much help. In fact I was told the Giants lead the league in drops (not verified). I think the Giants have been in the playoffs every year with Eli and it is not like the defense has been the reason (and I might agree that it isn't because Eli has been really good), teh team is all just slightly above average.Finally, Rodney Hampton was a very good running back

 

[Liquid Tension]

Again, so Josh Reed/Vincent Jackson/Kevin Walter are all much better #2 WR's than Toomer? Is that the gist of your argument?

Yes

Okay, at this point I think we can call this fight. BB wins in an 8th round KO.

DOWN GOES TENSION!! DOWN GOES TENSION!!! DOWN GOES TENSION!!!!

Let's not have selective response here. Read my sig, football is a TEAM game. Don't you think that having Gates and LT2 helps Rivers (who is worse than Eli and I don't see how any SD fan can be happy with the ducks Rivers throws)? Don't you think the OL protection has something to do with QB's playing well? Don't you think that moving a mediocre guard to become your starting LT could have an impact when Eli gets torched from his blind side? Don't you think the receivers matter? Have you guys watched Toomer? He dropped 5 passes in one game! He is the slowest WR in the league and he simply does not come back to balls. I can't argue this if you simply don't get these critical facts. Have you ever watched completions to Shockey? He gets NO separation (when he is playing which isn't often). Plax can't even make a cut he rounds every pattern this year because of his injury. The Giants have tried to address their weakness at WR almost every year (2nd round for Tim Carter, 1st round on Moss and 1st round for Steve Smith) and they have failed to get a usable guy. I think Steve Smith will be good and then he drops an easy bomb (I still think he will be good). Moss is terrible, he mis-runs his routes (caused an INT last game) and he doesn't have the YAC they thought he would.

 

[redman]

I see this different. I see that Mr. Pickles said Eli Manning would suck and Mr. Pickles is clearly wrong. if you still think he sucks than you don't understand the game of football. Now if you use the work suck to mean average or slightly above average then you would be correct.

I'm usually one of the people defending Eli but it really depends on what you mean by "suck". He was the #1 overall pick and has never had a QB rating over 77 for a season over the course of three and a half seasons. If you take into consideration he was the #1 pick and is paid like it I don't think you could describe that performance as average. If you take into consideration what the franchise gave up to get him then yeah, he might suck.I expect him to have several good years when he's surrounded by different coaches and in a different city but he hasn't proven he can have a QB rating of better than 77 yet. People say Rivers "sucks" and he's had QB ratings of 92 and 80 in his two seasons as a starter. Plus he didn't cost the franchise nearly as much to acquire as Manning cost the NYG.It all depends on what your expectations are when you apply the term "sucks".

First QB rating is not a very good judgment for rating QB's. Guys that dink and dunk will always have better ratings (Chad Pennington is the God of that).

Completely disagree.Pennington is a "dink and dunk" type guy? Then why has he averaged 7.1y/a when Elie has a 6.3y/a over his career? The reason Chad Pennington has done well in QB rating is his QB/INT ratio has always been positive his career and that's the most important stat. The only years where Pennington has been over an 85 it's because he's had big ratios like 22/6 and 16/9.The only reason people don't like QB rating is because it doesn't translate to FF very well. There is no reward for throwing the football 50 times a game. If a QB is very efficient he'll look much better than a Kurt Warner that turns the ball over three times forcing his team to pass the ball for 500 yards in a loss. But I'd argue QB rating represents how a QB performs much more than his fantasy #'s.

I've never sat down and looked closely at Pennington's numbers, but the "dink and dunk" passers who complete more short passes tend to do a little better than the mediocre downfield passers with strong arms because the high percentage completions help yards per attempt. Obviously, a completed pass gets you more yards on average than an incomplete one will.

 

[BoltBacker]

Again, so Josh Reed/Vincent Jackson/Kevin Walter are all much better #2 WR's than Toomer? Is that the gist of your argument?

Yes

Okay, at this point I think we can call this fight. BB wins in an 8th round KO.

Not at all. I just wanted to make sure he was addressing my question and to find out his answer. I disagree with him but I will admit I am not a Giant homer nor do I live on the east coast so I see less than half the NYG games every year.Still, I think he's over estimating how good the offensive lines are in BUF/SD/HOU/PIT. He also seems to be evaluating Eli in the vacuum of how he's performing right NOW, right at this very second... and throwing out Eli's performances for the last three years when he had one of the more dynamic RB's in the NFL to take pressure off of him.The ironic thing is I typically defend Eli because it seems that a whole lot of people have resigned themselves way too early to the fact Eli will never be any good. In my opinion to deny he has underwhelmed thus far takes away credibility. He's been the fifth best QB out of the draft class thus far but has the physical tools to be a solid pro-bowl-year-after-year type QB with the right coaching.

 

[Despyzer]

Read my sig, football is a TEAM game.

Aren't you the guy that earlier in this thread credited Eli for taking this crappy Giants team to the playoffs every year?

 

[BoltBacker]

I see this different. I see that Mr. Pickles said Eli Manning would suck and Mr. Pickles is clearly wrong. if you still think he sucks than you don't understand the game of football. Now if you use the work suck to mean average or slightly above average then you would be correct.

I'm usually one of the people defending Eli but it really depends on what you mean by "suck". He was the #1 overall pick and has never had a QB rating over 77 for a season over the course of three and a half seasons. If you take into consideration he was the #1 pick and is paid like it I don't think you could describe that performance as average. If you take into consideration what the franchise gave up to get him then yeah, he might suck.I expect him to have several good years when he's surrounded by different coaches and in a different city but he hasn't proven he can have a QB rating of better than 77 yet. People say Rivers "sucks" and he's had QB ratings of 92 and 80 in his two seasons as a starter. Plus he didn't cost the franchise nearly as much to acquire as Manning cost the NYG.It all depends on what your expectations are when you apply the term "sucks".

First QB rating is not a very good judgment for rating QB's. Guys that dink and dunk will always have better ratings (Chad Pennington is the God of that).

Completely disagree.Pennington is a "dink and dunk" type guy? Then why has he averaged 7.1y/a when Elie has a 6.3y/a over his career? The reason Chad Pennington has done well in QB rating is his QB/INT ratio has always been positive his career and that's the most important stat. The only years where Pennington has been over an 85 it's because he's had big ratios like 22/6 and 16/9.The only reason people don't like QB rating is because it doesn't translate to FF very well. There is no reward for throwing the football 50 times a game. If a QB is very efficient he'll look much better than a Kurt Warner that turns the ball over three times forcing his team to pass the ball for 500 yards in a loss. But I'd argue QB rating represents how a QB performs much more than his fantasy #'s.

I've never sat down and looked closely at Pennington's numbers, but the "dink and dunk" passers who complete more short passes tend to do a little better than the mediocre downfield passers with strong arms because the high percentage completions help yards per attempt. Obviously, a completed pass gets you more yards on average than an incomplete one will.

And I still don't buy it.If you look at the top ten QB rated passers right now the list is; Tom Brady Ben Roethlisberger David Garrard Tony Romo Peyton Manning Jeff Garcia Brett Favre Matt Hasselbeck Jay Cutler Drew BreesIs that list "dink and dunk" heavy? Garcia fits into that category and I'd say Brees may also qualify(he's also the only player that made it with a y/a under 7). I would have put Garrard in the category before this season but I've really been impressed with his arm this year.If Pennington was playing at his career average QB rating he'd be the 13th rated passer this season.

 

[dparker713]

I see this different. I see that Mr. Pickles said Eli Manning would suck and Mr. Pickles is clearly wrong. if you still think he sucks than you don't understand the game of football. Now if you use the work suck to mean average or slightly above average then you would be correct.

I'm usually one of the people defending Eli but it really depends on what you mean by "suck". He was the #1 overall pick and has never had a QB rating over 77 for a season over the course of three and a half seasons. If you take into consideration he was the #1 pick and is paid like it I don't think you could describe that performance as average. If you take into consideration what the franchise gave up to get him then yeah, he might suck.I expect him to have several good years when he's surrounded by different coaches and in a different city but he hasn't proven he can have a QB rating of better than 77 yet. People say Rivers "sucks" and he's had QB ratings of 92 and 80 in his two seasons as a starter. Plus he didn't cost the franchise nearly as much to acquire as Manning cost the NYG.It all depends on what your expectations are when you apply the term "sucks".

First QB rating is not a very good judgment for rating QB's. Guys that dink and dunk will always have better ratings (Chad Pennington is the God of that).

Completely disagree.Pennington is a "dink and dunk" type guy? Then why has he averaged 7.1y/a when Elie has a 6.3y/a over his career? The reason Chad Pennington has done well in QB rating is his QB/INT ratio has always been positive his career and that's the most important stat. The only years where Pennington has been over an 85 it's because he's had big ratios like 22/6 and 16/9.The only reason people don't like QB rating is because it doesn't translate to FF very well. There is no reward for throwing the football 50 times a game. If a QB is very efficient he'll look much better than a Kurt Warner that turns the ball over three times forcing his team to pass the ball for 500 yards in a loss. But I'd argue QB rating represents how a QB performs much more than his fantasy #'s.

I've never sat down and looked closely at Pennington's numbers, but the "dink and dunk" passers who complete more short passes tend to do a little better than the mediocre downfield passers with strong arms because the high percentage completions help yards per attempt. Obviously, a completed pass gets you more yards on average than an incomplete one will.

And I still don't buy it.If you look at the top ten QB rated passers right now the list is; Tom Brady Ben Roethlisberger David Garrard Tony Romo Peyton Manning Jeff Garcia Brett Favre Matt Hasselbeck Jay Cutler Drew BreesIs that list "dink and dunk" heavy? Garcia fits into that category and I'd say Brees may also qualify(he's also the only player that made it with a y/a under 7). I would have put Garrard in the category before this season but I've really been impressed with his arm this year.If Pennington was playing at his career average QB rating he'd be the 13th rated passer this season.

Have you seen Pennington play since his shoulder injury? Hes got one of the worst arms in the league at this point. But, he completes 65% of his passes. Eli has never approached that for a season. Considering you get zero yards for an incomplete pass, its easy to see how a buch of short throws that are completed can raise his ypa over Eli's

 

[Tick]

I was just looking at his stats... is it true that he's only lost one fumble in his career?

 

[redman]

I see this different. I see that Mr. Pickles said Eli Manning would suck and Mr. Pickles is clearly wrong. if you still think he sucks than you don't understand the game of football. Now if you use the work suck to mean average or slightly above average then you would be correct.

I'm usually one of the people defending Eli but it really depends on what you mean by "suck". He was the #1 overall pick and has never had a QB rating over 77 for a season over the course of three and a half seasons. If you take into consideration he was the #1 pick and is paid like it I don't think you could describe that performance as average. If you take into consideration what the franchise gave up to get him then yeah, he might suck.I expect him to have several good years when he's surrounded by different coaches and in a different city but he hasn't proven he can have a QB rating of better than 77 yet. People say Rivers "sucks" and he's had QB ratings of 92 and 80 in his two seasons as a starter. Plus he didn't cost the franchise nearly as much to acquire as Manning cost the NYG.It all depends on what your expectations are when you apply the term "sucks".

First QB rating is not a very good judgment for rating QB's. Guys that dink and dunk will always have better ratings (Chad Pennington is the God of that).

Completely disagree.Pennington is a "dink and dunk" type guy? Then why has he averaged 7.1y/a when Elie has a 6.3y/a over his career? The reason Chad Pennington has done well in QB rating is his QB/INT ratio has always been positive his career and that's the most important stat. The only years where Pennington has been over an 85 it's because he's had big ratios like 22/6 and 16/9.The only reason people don't like QB rating is because it doesn't translate to FF very well. There is no reward for throwing the football 50 times a game. If a QB is very efficient he'll look much better than a Kurt Warner that turns the ball over three times forcing his team to pass the ball for 500 yards in a loss. But I'd argue QB rating represents how a QB performs much more than his fantasy #'s.

I've never sat down and looked closely at Pennington's numbers, but the "dink and dunk" passers who complete more short passes tend to do a little better than the mediocre downfield passers with strong arms because the high percentage completions help yards per attempt. Obviously, a completed pass gets you more yards on average than an incomplete one will.

And I still don't buy it.If you look at the top ten QB rated passers right now the list is; Tom Brady Ben Roethlisberger David Garrard Tony Romo Peyton Manning Jeff Garcia Brett Favre Matt Hasselbeck Jay Cutler Drew BreesIs that list "dink and dunk" heavy? Garcia fits into that category and I'd say Brees may also qualify(he's also the only player that made it with a y/a under 7). I would have put Garrard in the category before this season but I've really been impressed with his arm this year.If Pennington was playing at his career average QB rating he'd be the 13th rated passer this season.

The top 10 are going to more or less be studs no matter what. It would be more interesting to me to look at 11-30 or so.

 

[Avery]

Let's not have selective response here. Read my sig, football is a TEAM game. Don't you think that having Gates and LT2 helps Rivers (who is worse than Eli and I don't see how any SD fan can be happy with the ducks Rivers throws)? Don't you think the OL protection has something to do with QB's playing well? Don't you think that moving a mediocre guard to become your starting LT could have an impact when Eli gets torched from his blind side? Don't you think the receivers matter?

Have you guys watched Toomer? He dropped 5 passes in one game! He is the slowest WR in the league and he simply does not come back to balls. I can't argue this if you simply don't get these critical facts. Have you ever watched completions to Shockey? He gets NO separation (when he is playing which isn't often). Plax can't even make a cut he rounds every pattern this year because of his injury. The Giants have tried to address their weakness at WR almost every year (2nd round for Tim Carter, 1st round on Moss and 1st round for Steve Smith) and they have failed to get a usable guy. I think Steve Smith will be good and then he drops an easy bomb (I still think he will be good). Moss is terrible, he mis-runs his routes (caused an INT last game) and he doesn't have the YAC they thought he would.

I generally agree with your points, but for accuracy's sake:Shockey has only missed 5 games over the past four years. He is gimpy often, but he is there to play.

Also, Moss and Smith were second round picks, not firsts.

 

[Popinski]

Eli Manning is struggling to prove he is even an average NFL QB, and this is coming from a Giants fan. The argument that he has nothing around him is ridiculous. He has had the opportunity to play with one of the better receiving corps in the league (Barber, Burress, Shockey) and a pretty good pass blocking offensive line (which is not poor as earlier suggested).He is not an accurate thrower. His pocket presence is poor. On any particular play, he is painfully slow in moving his focus from his #1 target to his other options. And in the face of pressure, he throws it to Plaxico regardless of how many defenders are covering Burress. He also takes drive-killing losses on sacks instead of trying to throw it away.Take away his last name and he wouldn't still be the Giants starting QB. Actually, take away his last name, and he wouldn't have been drafted in the first round and perhaps not even given a start yet. That draft-day trade with San Diego has set this franchise back and what makes me sick is that Giants' management probably still expects Eli to become one of the league's better QBs.I wonder how Eli would be faring with the mid 90s Giants skill players - Rodney Hampton, Howard Cross, Chris Calloway, Thomas Lewis? Actually, I'd rather not think about it.

Since when is Shockey a reliable target or a guy who can stay on the field? He is a middle of the pack guy at best when you look at his injury history.

When this season is over, Shockey will have played in 59 of 64 games when Eli was with the team. Granted, his career hasn't followed the expected course based on his rookie season, but to call a TE who has averaged 60 catches and 700+ yards the past 3 years a "middle of the pack guy at best" is ludicrious.

Calling the Giant OL pass protection good is grossly wrong. He has been hit straight on with nobody blocking a guy way more than other QB's.

I honestly have no idea what you have been watching. His rate of getting hit with "nobody blocking a guy" hasn't been anything unusual this season. The Giants rank 12th in the league in terms of lowest % sacks given up. And this is despite having Manning who does a poor job feeling pressure around him and who takes too long to go through his options. I will admit, however, that his propensity to throw it up for grabs to where he expects Plaxico to be probably decreases the sack figures.

The problem is not that it is Eli's name or anything else, the problem is that he can never and won't live up to the amount the Giants gave up to get him on the team.

My point with Eli's name was just that he has gotten chances he otherwise wouldn't have had. I agree with the point about him never being able to live up to the trade anyway.

if Eli was as bad as you think, don't you believe some of the backups they have had would have stepped in would and looked better? In preseason every one of them has looked MUCH worse than Eli? That is because the QB's on this team can't look very good.

Do you know who our backups are?

Finally, Rodney Hampton was a very good running back

Hampton was pretty good, but he was never a premier back. And the point I was making is that he gets blown away by Barber as a receiving option out of the backfield (as does Howard Cross by Shockey).

 

[BoltBacker]

I see this different. I see that Mr. Pickles said Eli Manning would suck and Mr. Pickles is clearly wrong. if you still think he sucks than you don't understand the game of football. Now if you use the work suck to mean average or slightly above average then you would be correct.

I'm usually one of the people defending Eli but it really depends on what you mean by "suck". He was the #1 overall pick and has never had a QB rating over 77 for a season over the course of three and a half seasons. If you take into consideration he was the #1 pick and is paid like it I don't think you could describe that performance as average. If you take into consideration what the franchise gave up to get him then yeah, he might suck.I expect him to have several good years when he's surrounded by different coaches and in a different city but he hasn't proven he can have a QB rating of better than 77 yet. People say Rivers "sucks" and he's had QB ratings of 92 and 80 in his two seasons as a starter. Plus he didn't cost the franchise nearly as much to acquire as Manning cost the NYG.It all depends on what your expectations are when you apply the term "sucks".

First QB rating is not a very good judgment for rating QB's. Guys that dink and dunk will always have better ratings (Chad Pennington is the God of that).

Completely disagree.Pennington is a "dink and dunk" type guy? Then why has he averaged 7.1y/a when Elie has a 6.3y/a over his career? The reason Chad Pennington has done well in QB rating is his QB/INT ratio has always been positive his career and that's the most important stat. The only years where Pennington has been over an 85 it's because he's had big ratios like 22/6 and 16/9.The only reason people don't like QB rating is because it doesn't translate to FF very well. There is no reward for throwing the football 50 times a game. If a QB is very efficient he'll look much better than a Kurt Warner that turns the ball over three times forcing his team to pass the ball for 500 yards in a loss. But I'd argue QB rating represents how a QB performs much more than his fantasy #'s.

I've never sat down and looked closely at Pennington's numbers, but the "dink and dunk" passers who complete more short passes tend to do a little better than the mediocre downfield passers with strong arms because the high percentage completions help yards per attempt. Obviously, a completed pass gets you more yards on average than an incomplete one will.

And I still don't buy it.If you look at the top ten QB rated passers right now the list is; Tom Brady Ben Roethlisberger David Garrard Tony Romo Peyton Manning Jeff Garcia Brett Favre Matt Hasselbeck Jay Cutler Drew BreesIs that list "dink and dunk" heavy? Garcia fits into that category and I'd say Brees may also qualify(he's also the only player that made it with a y/a under 7). I would have put Garrard in the category before this season but I've really been impressed with his arm this year.If Pennington was playing at his career average QB rating he'd be the 13th rated passer this season.

The top 10 are going to more or less be studs no matter what. It would be more interesting to me to look at 11-30 or so.

Why? If the dink-and-dunk passers are in the average to below average category wouldn't that kind of debunk the whole argument to begin with?

 

[BoltBacker]

I see this different. I see that Mr. Pickles said Eli Manning would suck and Mr. Pickles is clearly wrong. if you still think he sucks than you don't understand the game of football. Now if you use the work suck to mean average or slightly above average then you would be correct.

I'm usually one of the people defending Eli but it really depends on what you mean by "suck". He was the #1 overall pick and has never had a QB rating over 77 for a season over the course of three and a half seasons. If you take into consideration he was the #1 pick and is paid like it I don't think you could describe that performance as average. If you take into consideration what the franchise gave up to get him then yeah, he might suck.I expect him to have several good years when he's surrounded by different coaches and in a different city but he hasn't proven he can have a QB rating of better than 77 yet. People say Rivers "sucks" and he's had QB ratings of 92 and 80 in his two seasons as a starter. Plus he didn't cost the franchise nearly as much to acquire as Manning cost the NYG.It all depends on what your expectations are when you apply the term "sucks".

First QB rating is not a very good judgment for rating QB's. Guys that dink and dunk will always have better ratings (Chad Pennington is the God of that).

Completely disagree.Pennington is a "dink and dunk" type guy? Then why has he averaged 7.1y/a when Elie has a 6.3y/a over his career? The reason Chad Pennington has done well in QB rating is his QB/INT ratio has always been positive his career and that's the most important stat. The only years where Pennington has been over an 85 it's because he's had big ratios like 22/6 and 16/9.The only reason people don't like QB rating is because it doesn't translate to FF very well. There is no reward for throwing the football 50 times a game. If a QB is very efficient he'll look much better than a Kurt Warner that turns the ball over three times forcing his team to pass the ball for 500 yards in a loss. But I'd argue QB rating represents how a QB performs much more than his fantasy #'s.

I've never sat down and looked closely at Pennington's numbers, but the "dink and dunk" passers who complete more short passes tend to do a little better than the mediocre downfield passers with strong arms because the high percentage completions help yards per attempt. Obviously, a completed pass gets you more yards on average than an incomplete one will.

And I still don't buy it.If you look at the top ten QB rated passers right now the list is; Tom Brady Ben Roethlisberger David Garrard Tony Romo Peyton Manning Jeff Garcia Brett Favre Matt Hasselbeck Jay Cutler Drew BreesIs that list "dink and dunk" heavy? Garcia fits into that category and I'd say Brees may also qualify(he's also the only player that made it with a y/a under 7). I would have put Garrard in the category before this season but I've really been impressed with his arm this year.If Pennington was playing at his career average QB rating he'd be the 13th rated passer this season.

Have you seen Pennington play since his shoulder injury? Hes got one of the worst arms in the league at this point. But, he completes 65% of his passes. Eli has never approached that for a season. Considering you get zero yards for an incomplete pass, its easy to see how a buch of short throws that are completed can raise his ypa over Eli's

And people act like that's an asterisk; "Well, he only has a higher y/a because he completes more passes." Yeah, that's the object of calling a pass play... to complete passes. If Eli's deep passes should somehow be more valuable than Penningtons short passes shouldn't he have a higher y/a? However he's doing it Pennington is more efficient with his attempts than Eli. The truth is Eli may be throwing deeper passes but he doesn't complete enough of them to offset all his incompletions. Give me a choice between a guy that completes 10 yard passes at a 7/10 clip and I'll take that over a guy that completes 20 yard passes at a 3/10 clip.

 

[dparker713]

I see this different. I see that Mr. Pickles said Eli Manning would suck and Mr. Pickles is clearly wrong. if you still think he sucks than you don't understand the game of football. Now if you use the work suck to mean average or slightly above average then you would be correct.

I'm usually one of the people defending Eli but it really depends on what you mean by "suck". He was the #1 overall pick and has never had a QB rating over 77 for a season over the course of three and a half seasons. If you take into consideration he was the #1 pick and is paid like it I don't think you could describe that performance as average. If you take into consideration what the franchise gave up to get him then yeah, he might suck.I expect him to have several good years when he's surrounded by different coaches and in a different city but he hasn't proven he can have a QB rating of better than 77 yet. People say Rivers "sucks" and he's had QB ratings of 92 and 80 in his two seasons as a starter. Plus he didn't cost the franchise nearly as much to acquire as Manning cost the NYG.It all depends on what your expectations are when you apply the term "sucks".

First QB rating is not a very good judgment for rating QB's. Guys that dink and dunk will always have better ratings (Chad Pennington is the God of that).

Completely disagree.Pennington is a "dink and dunk" type guy? Then why has he averaged 7.1y/a when Elie has a 6.3y/a over his career? The reason Chad Pennington has done well in QB rating is his QB/INT ratio has always been positive his career and that's the most important stat. The only years where Pennington has been over an 85 it's because he's had big ratios like 22/6 and 16/9.The only reason people don't like QB rating is because it doesn't translate to FF very well. There is no reward for throwing the football 50 times a game. If a QB is very efficient he'll look much better than a Kurt Warner that turns the ball over three times forcing his team to pass the ball for 500 yards in a loss. But I'd argue QB rating represents how a QB performs much more than his fantasy #'s.

I've never sat down and looked closely at Pennington's numbers, but the "dink and dunk" passers who complete more short passes tend to do a little better than the mediocre downfield passers with strong arms because the high percentage completions help yards per attempt. Obviously, a completed pass gets you more yards on average than an incomplete one will.

And I still don't buy it.If you look at the top ten QB rated passers right now the list is; Tom Brady Ben Roethlisberger David Garrard Tony Romo Peyton Manning Jeff Garcia Brett Favre Matt Hasselbeck Jay Cutler Drew BreesIs that list "dink and dunk" heavy? Garcia fits into that category and I'd say Brees may also qualify(he's also the only player that made it with a y/a under 7). I would have put Garrard in the category before this season but I've really been impressed with his arm this year.If Pennington was playing at his career average QB rating he'd be the 13th rated passer this season.

Have you seen Pennington play since his shoulder injury? Hes got one of the worst arms in the league at this point. But, he completes 65% of his passes. Eli has never approached that for a season. Considering you get zero yards for an incomplete pass, its easy to see how a buch of short throws that are completed can raise his ypa over Eli's

And people act like that's an asterisk; "Well, he only has a higher y/a because he completes more passes." Yeah, that's the object of calling a pass play... to complete passes. If Eli's deep passes should somehow be more valuable than Penningtons short passes shouldn't he have a higher y/a? However he's doing it Pennington is more efficient with his attempts than Eli. The truth is Eli may be throwing deeper passes but he doesn't complete enough of them to offset all his incompletions. Give me a choice between a guy that completes 10 yard passes at a 7/10 clip and I'll take that over a guy that completes 20 yard passes at a 3/10 clip.

I dont care what the metrics say. They're are flaws in any statistical evaluation of a sport. And a direct comparision of Pennington and Eli right now, Pennigton loses. Pennington doesnt move the chains or put points on the board, and while Eli is hardly great at those things, he's better than Chad. Thats part of the rest the Giants are going to the playoffs, cause while Eli isnt good, he's not terrible and able to put up enough points to win.

 

[KoolKat]

I think after three straight years in the playoffs, multiple twenty TD seasons, and two playoff wins; Eli has not "sucked" in the NFL.

 

[Koya]

At this point, you have to say Eli has turned the tide. Now, he can always turn it back, but this is three big games in a row. Made some very good plays, was never "great" but very good for long stretches and most importantly, has not made any critical mistakes in any of the three games. Had a couple questionable decisions and a few bad throws but even when Eli was not doing something good, he was not doing something bad - which is important.

Today I kepy waiting for the other shoe to fall, probably by Ware coming around the end and knocking the ball out of Eli's hand. But Eli seems to finally have a bit more pocket awareness. I even noticed during the game it "seemed" (maybe I am reading into things) that Eli had more confidence at the line, calling the plays. Some more calmness, but leadership... and his speaking after the game, the very little I saw, supports this idea that he may finally be maturing and coming into his own as a man, and a a leader.

Still has to overcome a lot of inconsistency - but as noted, that inconistency has come with three straight playoff appearances, a win against a team with a very good D but no O in TB and then winning against a slightly better team in a tight game.

 

[mr. furley]

3 games in a row does not a career make

 

[Koya]

3 games in a row does not a career make

Not at all. But Eli, in his young career, has never had a more important stretch and he has played very well throughout it. Those are very promising signs. Of course it doesn't make a career, but he has not built on his two years of making it to the playoffs and failing. The guy came through when it counted - it is important to just know your QB can do that.

 

[Tom Servo]

Nice to see there'll be a Manning in a conference championship game, even if it is Eli.

He's had a nice playoff run. It's time for the haters to run for the tall grass (for now)...

 

[Liquid Tension]

I see this different. I see that Mr. Pickles said Eli Manning would suck and Mr. Pickles is clearly wrong. if you still think he sucks than you don't understand the game of football. Now if you use the work suck to mean average or slightly above average then you would be correct.

I'm usually one of the people defending Eli but it really depends on what you mean by "suck". He was the #1 overall pick and has never had a QB rating over 77 for a season over the course of three and a half seasons. If you take into consideration he was the #1 pick and is paid like it I don't think you could describe that performance as average. If you take into consideration what the franchise gave up to get him then yeah, he might suck.I expect him to have several good years when he's surrounded by different coaches and in a different city but he hasn't proven he can have a QB rating of better than 77 yet. People say Rivers "sucks" and he's had QB ratings of 92 and 80 in his two seasons as a starter. Plus he didn't cost the franchise nearly as much to acquire as Manning cost the NYG.It all depends on what your expectations are when you apply the term "sucks".

First QB rating is not a very good judgment for rating QB's. Guys that dink and dunk will always have better ratings (Chad Pennington is the God of that).

Completely disagree.Pennington is a "dink and dunk" type guy? Then why has he averaged 7.1y/a when Elie has a 6.3y/a over his career? The reason Chad Pennington has done well in QB rating is his QB/INT ratio has always been positive his career and that's the most important stat. The only years where Pennington has been over an 85 it's because he's had big ratios like 22/6 and 16/9.The only reason people don't like QB rating is because it doesn't translate to FF very well. There is no reward for throwing the football 50 times a game. If a QB is very efficient he'll look much better than a Kurt Warner that turns the ball over three times forcing his team to pass the ball for 500 yards in a loss. But I'd argue QB rating represents how a QB performs much more than his fantasy #'s.

I've never sat down and looked closely at Pennington's numbers, but the "dink and dunk" passers who complete more short passes tend to do a little better than the mediocre downfield passers with strong arms because the high percentage completions help yards per attempt. Obviously, a completed pass gets you more yards on average than an incomplete one will.

And I still don't buy it.If you look at the top ten QB rated passers right now the list is; Tom Brady Ben Roethlisberger David Garrard Tony Romo Peyton Manning Jeff Garcia Brett Favre Matt Hasselbeck Jay Cutler Drew BreesIs that list "dink and dunk" heavy? Garcia fits into that category and I'd say Brees may also qualify(he's also the only player that made it with a y/a under 7). I would have put Garrard in the category before this season but I've really been impressed with his arm this year.If Pennington was playing at his career average QB rating he'd be the 13th rated passer this season.

Have you seen Pennington play since his shoulder injury? Hes got one of the worst arms in the league at this point. But, he completes 65% of his passes. Eli has never approached that for a season. Considering you get zero yards for an incomplete pass, its easy to see how a buch of short throws that are completed can raise his ypa over Eli's

And people act like that's an asterisk; "Well, he only has a higher y/a because he completes more passes." Yeah, that's the object of calling a pass play... to complete passes. If Eli's deep passes should somehow be more valuable than Penningtons short passes shouldn't he have a higher y/a? However he's doing it Pennington is more efficient with his attempts than Eli. The truth is Eli may be throwing deeper passes but he doesn't complete enough of them to offset all his incompletions. Give me a choice between a guy that completes 10 yard passes at a 7/10 clip and I'll take that over a guy that completes 20 yard passes at a 3/10 clip.

First, I want to apologize as I made a lot of comments about Eli and people gave me good responses (even if they disagreed) and I never responded to them. Sometimes work pulls me away and I don't get back to a thread for some time (and the responses were from around Christmas) So I apologize for not responding...Now some of my responses...In regards to Pennington, Boltbacker ask Jet fans how many time Pennington checks down and completes a 4 yard pass so that the Jets need to punt on 4th and 3? he also does not throw many passes away and that helps his pass rating as well (and YPA). Eli throws a lot of balls away to avoid sacks and that hurts his completion %.As for Eli, this may seem self serving after he has played pretty well in the postseason (not great), but I have been a big supporter of Eli in any thread I have posted in. My take is still the same, he is an above average QB, but not elite in any way. I still think the Giant OL is not a good pass protecting unit and every single game (someone refuted me on this) either the right tackle or LT gets beaten without slowing a defender at all and Eli gets punished. This is a joke between me and my buddies (I posted this last game as well) that OK, McKenzie let his guy go around him and he got it out of his system...it happened again against Dallas. Eli also does not have a lot of room to step up more times than most QB's. I think his receiving corp is weak. Toomer (who had another good game, but mostly because of poor tackling by Dallas and the fact they didn;t cover him a few times) is pretty much done. he dropped another pass yesterday and is a terrible #2 WR now. Actually Steve Smith will be the #2 moving forward.As for Shockey, when I said he is unreliable and then someone responded with how many games he has played, I am referring to the fact that he drops too many passes and is much slower than he used to be and finally he misses a ton of plays with injuries. now, I respect his heart, but he is always slowed by injuries, even if he plays and I don't see why is not considered a middle of the road TE now...he is? Ask Giant fans about how they feel about Boss. truth be told, I am not thrilled about Boss's blocking ability this year, but I don't miss Shockey running wrong routes and dropping passes and getting called for a 15 yard penalty. I do miss the way he used to turn up field after a catch and run people over, but I think his injuries have gotten the best of him and he is not a star anymore.To Despyzer who said, wasn't I the guy who said Eli led them to 3 straight playoff seasons yet I call it a team game...I am not sure if I said Eli led them or not, but assuming I did, I think it might have been in response to someone who said you can never win with Eli and I was defending him. Football is a team game and I am defending Eli because I don't think he is surrounded by the talent of other playoff QB's. Wouldn't you agree that when you look at teams that played this week that Eli has less talent around him? I hope I covered most of thing, if not please ask again...thanks for the responses, even if you didn't agree

 

[Liquid Tension]

At this point, you have to say Eli has turned the tide. Now, he can always turn it back, but this is three big games in a row. Made some very good plays, was never "great" but very good for long stretches and most importantly, has not made any critical mistakes in any of the three games. Had a couple questionable decisions and a few bad throws but even when Eli was not doing something good, he was not doing something bad - which is important.Today I kepy waiting for the other shoe to fall, probably by Ware coming around the end and knocking the ball out of Eli's hand. But Eli seems to finally have a bit more pocket awareness. I even noticed during the game it "seemed" (maybe I am reading into things) that Eli had more confidence at the line, calling the plays. Some more calmness, but leadership... and his speaking after the game, the very little I saw, supports this idea that he may finally be maturing and coming into his own as a man, and a a leader. Still has to overcome a lot of inconsistency - but as noted, that inconistency has come with three straight playoff appearances, a win against a team with a very good D but no O in TB and then winning against a slightly better team in a tight game.

There are always the haters, but I think this is the take from most Giant fans...Eli is above average and with more talent we may say very good.

 

[gump]

Anyone notice how many times the Giants started a play with 1 on the play clock? You also saw that in Colts and Pats games.

That shows you how foxused and in command of the offensive flow Eli was.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

I've been impressed with his play over the last 3 games. The defense and running game deserve a lot of credit for the team winning though. Eli has done a good job of making plays that are there and not screwing up.

 

[Joe T]

I think after three straight years in the playoffs, multiple twenty TD seasons, and two playoff wins; Eli has not "sucked" in the NFL.

dammit I was going to bump this today.I would take Eli over Romo going forward.

 

[Jason Wood]

I think after three straight years in the playoffs, multiple twenty TD seasons, and two playoff wins; Eli has not "sucked" in the NFL.

dammit I was going to bump this today.I would take Eli over Romo going forward.

...not saying you're wrong, but why do you feel that way? Certainly Eli has now "won" more when it counts; but in terms of numbers, Romo trounces him in virtually every category.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

bump

 

[Pai Mei]

I think after three straight years in the playoffs, multiple twenty TD seasons, and two playoff wins; Eli has not "sucked" in the NFL.

dammit I was going to bump this today.I would take Eli over Romo going forward.

...not saying you're wrong, but why do you feel that way? Certainly Eli has now "won" more when it counts; but in terms of numbers, Romo trounces him in virtually every category.

The assertion of the original poster is wrecked. He's led his team to the NFC title game. There's no way you can say "he sucked in the NFL."

 

[Pai Mei]

Strike out his first playoff game, and Eli Manning has thrown 6 TDs and only 1 INT, and a QB rating over 100 in the playoffs.

 

[redman]

bump

Beat me to it.

 

[wilked]

some major ownage here....

 

[gump]

I have no doubt, and never had a doubt, that he will succeed in the NFL.

 

[Mr.Pack]

I know I don't usually post here, and no.. this isn't a fishing trip, but I think Eli Manning folds like a cheap suit in the NFL. Just doesn't seem to be the Peyton Jr. clone that everyone seems to make him out to be. Am I alone in this thinking?Will answer yours.

What?

 

[pinequick]

I've been impressed with his play over the last 3 games. The defense and running game deserve a lot of credit for the team winning though. Eli has done a good job of making plays that are there and not screwing up.

This is sort of the head-scratcher for me. Where has this guy been? Is this just another "hot streak" for Eli, or is this finally the "Eli Manning" that the Giants have expected from the day that they dealt for him?

 

[Avery]

I posted this in the game thread with much trepidation, and I hate to bring any attention to the Giants success, but Eli is looking like a franchise QB and worth every pick that the Giants paid to get him.

 

[Yenrub]

I posted this in the game thread with much trepidation, and I hate to bring any attention to the Giants success, but Eli is looking like a franchise QB and worth every pick that the Giants paid to get him.

I agree he is looking like a franchise QBI disagree that he is looking like he is worth every pick the Giants gave up for him.

Remember the Giants could have picked either Rivers(just went to AFC title game) or Big Ben (already won a Super Bowl)without giving up anything.

I think the gave up a 1, 3 and 5 to get Eli.

I am a Giants fan and I am happy with Eli, but he basically has to be the next Joe Montana to be worth what the Giants gave up for him