Fact or Fiction? Rolling Stone's UVA Gang Rape Story (1 Viewer)

[Soonerman]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/12/06/msnbc_panelist_we_live_in_a_culture_that_hates_women.html

Too dumb for words.

 

[SacramentoBob]

Don't know if you guys have followed but this is another story that is being DRAMATICALLY underplayed right now, along the same lines:

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywood/2014/12/03/investigation-lena-dunhams-republican-rapist-story-falls-apart-under-scrutiny

TLR Lena Dunham accuses a college republican of rape in her books and looks to be complete bunk

Rape is a vile disguting thing and deserves harsh justice, but likewise, false accusations deserve the same punishment. Once you get the stench of that accusation attached to you, its very hard to remove, even when exonerated

I could only tolerate a few episodes of her show and didn't even know she had a book out. If this is true (she fabricated a rape story) then I would hope there is some backlash. It is such a disservice to actual victims for this kind of attention whoring to occur.

That story is absolutely disgusting. She's vague about identifying the guy, but there is a real dude who people assume is the rapist and she's leaving him twisting in the wind. Either confirm it's him and stand by your story or let this guy go back to living his life. ####### ugly pig.

She also writes about fingerblasting her infant sister. She's a sick piece of work.

What's this now?

 

[Tom Servo]

Don't know if you guys have followed but this is another story that is being DRAMATICALLY underplayed right now, along the same lines:

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywood/2014/12/03/investigation-lena-dunhams-republican-rapist-story-falls-apart-under-scrutiny

TLR Lena Dunham accuses a college republican of rape in her books and looks to be complete bunk

Rape is a vile disguting thing and deserves harsh justice, but likewise, false accusations deserve the same punishment. Once you get the stench of that accusation attached to you, its very hard to remove, even when exonerated

I could only tolerate a few episodes of her show and didn't even know she had a book out. If this is true (she fabricated a rape story) then I would hope there is some backlash. It is such a disservice to actual victims for this kind of attention whoring to occur.

That story is absolutely disgusting. She's vague about identifying the guy, but there is a real dude who people assume is the rapist and she's leaving him twisting in the wind. Either confirm it's him and stand by your story or let this guy go back to living his life. ####### ugly pig.

She also writes about fingerblasting her infant sister. She's a sick piece of work.

What's this now?

Read this:http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/nov/05/lena-dunham-statement-abuse-claims

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/12/06/msnbc_panelist_we_live_in_a_culture_that_hates_women.html

Too dumb for words.

"we live in a culture that hates women"

Stupid broads

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

Dunham's little sister Grace seems to still back Jackie's story...her twitter page is interesting

 

[SacramentoBob]

Don't know if you guys have followed but this is another story that is being DRAMATICALLY underplayed right now, along the same lines:

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywood/2014/12/03/investigation-lena-dunhams-republican-rapist-story-falls-apart-under-scrutiny

TLR Lena Dunham accuses a college republican of rape in her books and looks to be complete bunk

Rape is a vile disguting thing and deserves harsh justice, but likewise, false accusations deserve the same punishment. Once you get the stench of that accusation attached to you, its very hard to remove, even when exonerated

I could only tolerate a few episodes of her show and didn't even know she had a book out. If this is true (she fabricated a rape story) then I would hope there is some backlash. It is such a disservice to actual victims for this kind of attention whoring to occur.

That story is absolutely disgusting. She's vague about identifying the guy, but there is a real dude who people assume is the rapist and she's leaving him twisting in the wind. Either confirm it's him and stand by your story or let this guy go back to living his life. ####### ugly pig.

She also writes about fingerblasting her infant sister. She's a sick piece of work.

What's this now?

Read this:http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/nov/05/lena-dunham-statement-abuse-claims

Heteronormativity deems certain behaviours harmful, and others ‘normal’;

Oh, good god.

 

[SacramentoBob]

Dunham's little sister Grace seems to still back Jackie's story...her twitter page is interesting

Some people like how the Kool-Aid tastes.

 

[McGarnicle]

Dunham's little sister Grace seems to still back Jackie's story...her twitter page is interesting

Too dumb for words, part deux.

@simongdunham: #### u rolling stone #### u mainstream media #### u ethical journalism #### u objectivity #### your standards of truth i don't trust you

Yeeeeah okay.The people who crowned her big sister this profound voice that is supposedly transforming our culture...good luck with all that.

 

[MaxThreshold]

"Barry" now considering legal action against Dunham. Hope he does go thru with it. Hope he rakes her over the coals.

 

[SacramentoBob]

I don't like the whole "setup a fund to maybe possibly consider suing Dunham". Why maybe?

 

[dickey moe]

"Journalism."

 

[Todd Andrews]

I don't like the whole "setup a fund to maybe possibly consider suing Dunham". Why maybe?

its a money grab

 

[FUBAR]

I don't like the whole "setup a fund to maybe possibly consider suing Dunham". Why maybe?

"Possibly consider"? Might be a bit redundant and repetitive.

$3.7 million reasons to fabricate a story.

 

[Soonerman]

Good for him. Hope he shuts up that insufferable, ugly, weirdo.

 

[dhockster]

A rape accusation is a double-edged sword. It is hard for the accuser to prove, and it is hard for the accused to disprove. Add in alchohol to most of the college rape situations and the water gets even muddier.

If college women want to avoid most college rape situations, don't get drunk at parties. It lowers their inhibitions and guys take advantage of lowered inhibitions. Girls may end up doing things with people they didn't want to

do them with and regret it later. If college men want to avoid being accused of rape, don't have sex with drunk women. What they do with you drunk, they may not do sober, and therefore will have regret over the whole situation.

This may lead to a false accusation.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

A rape accusation is a double-edged sword. It is hard for the accuser to prove, and it is hard for the accused to disprove. Add in alchohol to most of the college rape situations and the water gets even muddier.

If college women want to avoid most college rape situations, don't get drunk at parties. It lowers their inhibitions and guys take advantage of lowered inhibitions. Girls may end up doing things with people they didn't want to

do them with and regret it later. If college men want to avoid being accused of rape, don't have sex with drunk women. What they do with you drunk, they may not do sober, and therefore will have regret over the whole situation.

This may lead to a false accusation.

And guys need to stop being all rapey.

 

[dhockster]

A rape accusation is a double-edged sword. It is hard for the accuser to prove, and it is hard for the accused to disprove. Add in alchohol to most of the college rape situations and the water gets even muddier.

If college women want to avoid most college rape situations, don't get drunk at parties. It lowers their inhibitions and guys take advantage of lowered inhibitions. Girls may end up doing things with people they didn't want to

do them with and regret it later. If college men want to avoid being accused of rape, don't have sex with drunk women. What they do with you drunk, they may not do sober, and therefore will have regret over the whole situation.

This may lead to a false accusation.

And guys need to stop being all rapey.

Yeah, that too.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

A rape accusation is a double-edged sword. It is hard for the accuser to prove, and it is hard for the accused to disprove. Add in alchohol to most of the college rape situations and the water gets even muddier.

If college women want to avoid most college rape situations, don't get drunk at parties. It lowers their inhibitions and guys take advantage of lowered inhibitions. Girls may end up doing things with people they didn't want to

do them with and regret it later. If college men want to avoid being accused of rape, don't have sex with drunk women. What they do with you drunk, they may not do sober, and therefore will have regret over the whole situation.

This may lead to a false accusation.

It says a lot about how politicized this issue has become that this advice generally draws nothing but criticism when it comes from college administrators.

 

[SacramentoBob]

A rape accusation is a double-edged sword. It is hard for the accuser to prove, and it is hard for the accused to disprove. Add in alchohol to most of the college rape situations and the water gets even muddier.

If college women want to avoid most college rape situations, don't get drunk at parties. It lowers their inhibitions and guys take advantage of lowered inhibitions. Girls may end up doing things with people they didn't want to

do them with and regret it later. If college men want to avoid being accused of rape, don't have sex with drunk women. What they do with you drunk, they may not do sober, and therefore will have regret over the whole situation.

This may lead to a false accusation.

And guys need to stop being all rapey.

But if both were drunk, why doesn't it count as rape for the woman? He couldn't give consent either, right? I vote for double rape.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Someone tweeted yesterday: "So as I understand it, Atticus Finch is now the bad guy in "To Kill A Mockingbird," because he doubted a story about rape."

Atticus Finch was a sexist, a racist, and above all a coward. One of the most overrated fictional characters of all time, IMO.

It's called a flawed protagonist. If you want a perfect protagonist look up Ayn Rand or any unpublished author in the world.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/12/06/msnbc_panelist_we_live_in_a_culture_that_hates_women.html

Too dumb for words.

Msnbc specializes in this stuff. Their commentators say things that are spittake worthy frequently.

 

[FUBAR]

A rape accusation is a double-edged sword. It is hard for the accuser to prove, and it is hard for the accused to disprove. Add in alchohol to most of the college rape situations and the water gets even muddier.

If college women want to avoid most college rape situations, don't get drunk at parties. It lowers their inhibitions and guys take advantage of lowered inhibitions. Girls may end up doing things with people they didn't want to

do them with and regret it later. If college men want to avoid being accused of rape, don't have sex with drunk women. What they do with you drunk, they may not do sober, and therefore will have regret over the whole situation.

This may lead to a false accusation.

It says a lot about how politicized this issue has become that this advice generally draws nothing but criticism when it comes from college administrators.

True. The constant theme we've seen is, with rare exception, women people respect don't get raped.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Journalism nowadays. Christ.

Yep!

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Groups Urge UVa to Reinstate Fraternity ActivitiesThe University of Virginia should lift its suspension of fraternity and sorority activities now that Rolling Stone has acknowledged mistakes in its reporting of an alleged gang rape on campus, three organizations said in a statement.

The Fraternity and Sorority Political Action Committee, the National Panhellenic Conference and the North-American Interfraternity Conference also said the university should apologize for a "rush to judgment" that damaged the reputation of Greek organizations and students.

University President Teresa A. Sullivan suspended Greek activities until Jan. 9 after Rolling Stone published an article last month describing an alleged gang rape at the Phi Kappa Psi fraternity house. In their statement Sunday, the three national Greek organizations said the decision was made before an investigation into the story's allegations was completed.

"We believe universities must demonstrate more respect for the fundamental rights to due process and freedom of association for students and student organizations when allegations of misconduct are lodged," they said. "A rush to judgment on campus all too often turns out to be wrong, especially when applied at the organizational level."

University spokesmen did not immediately return telephone and email messages to The Associated Press on Monday.

The statement came the same day that Rolling Stone modified its earlier apology to emphasize that the mistakes were the magazine's fault, not the alleged victim's. Friday's original note to readers said of Jackie, the alleged victim who was the main source for the story: "Our trust in her was misplaced." The updated note removes that line, which struck some critics as blaming the victim.

The magazine said it shouldn't have agreed to Jackie's request not to contact the alleged assailants to get their side of the story, out of sensitivity to her. "These mistakes are on Rolling Stone, not on Jackie," wrote the magazine's managing editor, Will Dana. "We apologize to anyone who was affected by the story and we will continue to investigate the events of that evening."

The Rolling Stone article rocked a campus still reeling from the disappearance and death of 18-year-old sophomore Hannah Graham. It portrayed a culture of sexual violence at U.Va., one of the nation's leading public universities, and an administration response that put protecting the school's image ahead of seeking justice for sex crimes.

Phi Kappa Psi has denied the assault and said it didn't host an event on the night Jackie alleged she was raped. Dana said in his updated note that Jackie is now unsure that the man who allegedly lured her into a room to be raped by seven men was a member of Phi Kappa Psi, and that other discrepancies in her account have emerged. Jackie told the Washington Post she stood by her story.

Some advocates for rape victims have expressed concern that the magazine's backpedaling could undermine efforts to combat campus sexual assaults. The U.Va. Inter-Fraternity Council said that should not be allowed to happen.

"Sexual assault is a problem across college campuses, and we remain committed to being leaders in the campaign for long-term change," the council, which represents U.Va.'s 31 fraternities, said in a statement.

http://abcnews.go.com/us/wirestory/groups-urge-uva-reinstate-fraternity-activities-27444557

They should reinstate the frats immediately if this thing is as falsely reported as it sounds?

 

[CletiusMaximus]

I was at a party last weekend where one of my friends was talking about her two nieces, who are going off to college next fall. She thinks they've had no experience with alcohol, and wants to sit them down with a bottle of vodka and "teach them how to drink". She wants them to know what alcohol does to them so their first experience isn't at a college party next fall. Her suggestion was met with mixed reactions.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Someone tweeted yesterday: "So as I understand it, Atticus Finch is now the bad guy in "To Kill A Mockingbird," because he doubted a story about rape."

Atticus Finch was a sexist, a racist, and above all a coward. One of the most overrated fictional characters of all time, IMO.

I must have read a different version of Harper Lee's book than did you.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I was at a party last weekend where one of my friends was talking about her two nieces, who are going off to college next fall. She thinks they've had no experience with alcohol, and wants to sit them down with a bottle of vodka and "teach them how to drink". She wants them to know what alcohol does to them so their first experience isn't at a college party next fall. Her suggestion was met with mixed reactions.

That reminds me of this Norm MacDonald bit about how his dad tried to cure him of cigarette smoking.

http://gawker.com/5629650/norm-macdonald-on-the-effects-of-smoking

What could possibly go wrong.

I will say I grew up in NO where we hit the bars early in our young academic careers, mid high school is very common. I went to a large state college outside of LA. It was pretty funny (or sad) seeing some of the country kids come in and be completely out of their element, they truly did not know how to drink.

I don't know about these specific girls, but if they are leaving far out of town for college and if they aren't worldly enough to watch out or take care of themselves properly, then the parents ought to think about keeping them closer to home, seriously.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I was at a party last weekend where one of my friends was talking about her two nieces, who are going off to college next fall. She thinks they've had no experience with alcohol, and wants to sit them down with a bottle of vodka and "teach them how to drink". She wants them to know what alcohol does to them so their first experience isn't at a college party next fall. Her suggestion was met with mixed reactions.

That reminds me of this Norm MacDonald bit about how his dad tried to cure him of cigarette smoking.

http://gawker.com/5629650/norm-macdonald-on-the-effects-of-smoking

What could possibly go wrong.

I will say I grew up in NO where we hit the bars early in our young academic careers, mid high school is very common. I went to a large state college outside of LA. It was pretty funny (or sad) seeing some of the country kids come in and be completely out of their element, they truly did not know how to drink.

I don't know about these specific girls, but if they are leaving far out of town for college and if they aren't worldly enough to watch out or take care of themselves properly, then the parents ought to think about keeping them closer to home, seriously.

If we have a culture on college campuses that is so bad that you think we should limit opportunities for women, I'd say the problem is on the college campuses, not the women and their families.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I was at a party last weekend where one of my friends was talking about her two nieces, who are going off to college next fall. She thinks they've had no experience with alcohol, and wants to sit them down with a bottle of vodka and "teach them how to drink". She wants them to know what alcohol does to them so their first experience isn't at a college party next fall. Her suggestion was met with mixed reactions.

That reminds me of this Norm MacDonald bit about how his dad tried to cure him of cigarette smoking.

http://gawker.com/5629650/norm-macdonald-on-the-effects-of-smoking

What could possibly go wrong.

I will say I grew up in NO where we hit the bars early in our young academic careers, mid high school is very common. I went to a large state college outside of LA. It was pretty funny (or sad) seeing some of the country kids come in and be completely out of their element, they truly did not know how to drink.

I don't know about these specific girls, but if they are leaving far out of town for college and if they aren't worldly enough to watch out or take care of themselves properly, then the parents ought to think about keeping them closer to home, seriously.

If we have a culture on college campuses that is so bad that you think we should limit opportunities for women, I'd say the problem is on the college campuses, not the women and their families.

Well then this parent that Cletus is speaking of better hope it's fixed before her daughters get to wherever they're going away from home by next fall. Otherwise they're at risk, wouldn't you say, sheep to wolves as it were?

 

[FUBAR]

I was at a party last weekend where one of my friends was talking about her two nieces, who are going off to college next fall. She thinks they've had no experience with alcohol, and wants to sit them down with a bottle of vodka and "teach them how to drink". She wants them to know what alcohol does to them so their first experience isn't at a college party next fall. Her suggestion was met with mixed reactions.

That reminds me of this Norm MacDonald bit about how his dad tried to cure him of cigarette smoking.

http://gawker.com/5629650/norm-macdonald-on-the-effects-of-smoking

What could possibly go wrong.

I will say I grew up in NO where we hit the bars early in our young academic careers, mid high school is very common. I went to a large state college outside of LA. It was pretty funny (or sad) seeing some of the country kids come in and be completely out of their element, they truly did not know how to drink.

I don't know about these specific girls, but if they are leaving far out of town for college and if they aren't worldly enough to watch out or take care of themselves properly, then the parents ought to think about keeping them closer to home, seriously.

If we have a culture on college campuses that is so bad that you think we should limit opportunities for women, I'd say the problem is on the college campuses, not the women and their families.

maybe but it's a helluva lot easier to take care of your kids than to change a college culture.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I was at a party last weekend where one of my friends was talking about her two nieces, who are going off to college next fall. She thinks they've had no experience with alcohol, and wants to sit them down with a bottle of vodka and "teach them how to drink". She wants them to know what alcohol does to them so their first experience isn't at a college party next fall. Her suggestion was met with mixed reactions.

That reminds me of this Norm MacDonald bit about how his dad tried to cure him of cigarette smoking.

http://gawker.com/5629650/norm-macdonald-on-the-effects-of-smoking

What could possibly go wrong.

I will say I grew up in NO where we hit the bars early in our young academic careers, mid high school is very common. I went to a large state college outside of LA. It was pretty funny (or sad) seeing some of the country kids come in and be completely out of their element, they truly did not know how to drink.

I don't know about these specific girls, but if they are leaving far out of town for college and if they aren't worldly enough to watch out or take care of themselves properly, then the parents ought to think about keeping them closer to home, seriously.

If we have a culture on college campuses that is so bad that you think we should limit opportunities for women, I'd say the problem is on the college campuses, not the women and their families.

Well then this parent that Cletus is speaking of better hope it's fixed before her daughters get to wherever they're going away from home by next fall. Otherwise they're at risk, wouldn't you say, sheep to wolves as it were?

I would. It's a problem that needs fixing.

I just had a real issue with you suggesting that families keep their daughters at home if they haven't partied enough. Say a rural family has twins, a boy and a girl. They're both smart enough to get into, oh, let's say Duke (pick any top tier school with a healthy frat culture). Are you suggesting that they boy be permitted to go but the girl should stay home? You see the serious problem with that, right?

 

[TobiasFunke]

I haven't seen any mention of this, but is this a Prohibition-type problem where the answer is to amend the law, in this case lower the drinking age? Every other prohibited vice seems to produce horrible by-products that result from efforts to obtain the thing that's prohibited, maybe this is the same sort of situation.

If we let 18-20 year olds drink in bars with adults and security cameras present instead of in private residences, and also let them purchase their own alcohol instead of getting drinks of unknown potency from strange men, would on-campus rape numbers fall off significantly? I haven't been on a college campus in almost 20 years, but it seems like it's worth discussing at least.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Groups Urge UVa to Reinstate Fraternity ActivitiesThe University of Virginia should lift its suspension of fraternity and sorority activities now that Rolling Stone has acknowledged mistakes in its reporting of an alleged gang rape on campus, three organizations said in a statement.

The Fraternity and Sorority Political Action Committee, the National Panhellenic Conference and the North-American Interfraternity Conference also said the university should apologize for a "rush to judgment" that damaged the reputation of Greek organizations and students.

University President Teresa A. Sullivan suspended Greek activities until Jan. 9 after Rolling Stone published an article last month describing an alleged gang rape at the Phi Kappa Psi fraternity house. In their statement Sunday, the three national Greek organizations said the decision was made before an investigation into the story's allegations was completed.

"We believe universities must demonstrate more respect for the fundamental rights to due process and freedom of association for students and student organizations when allegations of misconduct are lodged," they said. "A rush to judgment on campus all too often turns out to be wrong, especially when applied at the organizational level."

University spokesmen did not immediately return telephone and email messages to The Associated Press on Monday.

The statement came the same day that Rolling Stone modified its earlier apology to emphasize that the mistakes were the magazine's fault, not the alleged victim's. Friday's original note to readers said of Jackie, the alleged victim who was the main source for the story: "Our trust in her was misplaced." The updated note removes that line, which struck some critics as blaming the victim.

The magazine said it shouldn't have agreed to Jackie's request not to contact the alleged assailants to get their side of the story, out of sensitivity to her. "These mistakes are on Rolling Stone, not on Jackie," wrote the magazine's managing editor, Will Dana. "We apologize to anyone who was affected by the story and we will continue to investigate the events of that evening."

The Rolling Stone article rocked a campus still reeling from the disappearance and death of 18-year-old sophomore Hannah Graham. It portrayed a culture of sexual violence at U.Va., one of the nation's leading public universities, and an administration response that put protecting the school's image ahead of seeking justice for sex crimes.

Phi Kappa Psi has denied the assault and said it didn't host an event on the night Jackie alleged she was raped. Dana said in his updated note that Jackie is now unsure that the man who allegedly lured her into a room to be raped by seven men was a member of Phi Kappa Psi, and that other discrepancies in her account have emerged. Jackie told the Washington Post she stood by her story.

Some advocates for rape victims have expressed concern that the magazine's backpedaling could undermine efforts to combat campus sexual assaults. The U.Va. Inter-Fraternity Council said that should not be allowed to happen.

"Sexual assault is a problem across college campuses, and we remain committed to being leaders in the campaign for long-term change," the council, which represents U.Va.'s 31 fraternities, said in a statement.

http://abcnews.go.com/us/wirestory/groups-urge-uva-reinstate-fraternity-activities-27444557

They should reinstate the frats immediately if this thing is as falsely reported as it sounds?

"Jackie" is the villain in this story, not the victim. She completely deserves criticism for her role in this, and her only saving grace is that attorneys for Phi Kappa Psi are undoubtedly more interested in going after Rolling Stone's bank account than hers.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

This UVA case as well as the Lena Dunham book are really interesting albeit tragic and hopefully at the very least lead to discussions on campus by male and female students with each other instead of advocacy groups trying to control the narrative.

I haven't seen any mention of this, but is this a Prohibition-type problem where the answer is to amend the law, in this case lower the drinking age? Every other prohibited vice seems to produce horrible by-products that result from efforts to obtain the thing that's prohibited, maybe this is the same sort of situation.

If we let 18-20 year olds drink in bars with adults and security cameras present instead of in private residences, and also let them purchase their own alcohol instead of getting drinks of unknown potency from strange men, would on-campus rape numbers fall off significantly? I haven't been on a college campus in almost 20 years, but it seems like it's worth discussing at least.

It is funny as I was getting ready to write something very similar, I certainly think it merits discussion but I doubt the drinking age ever gets lowered. I would not have a problem with the drinking age being 18, I think the counter argument will be that by lowering the drinking age to 18 you make it easier for someone 15-18 to get their hands on alcohol.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I was at a party last weekend where one of my friends was talking about her two nieces, who are going off to college next fall. She thinks they've had no experience with alcohol, and wants to sit them down with a bottle of vodka and "teach them how to drink". She wants them to know what alcohol does to them so their first experience isn't at a college party next fall. Her suggestion was met with mixed reactions.

That reminds me of this Norm MacDonald bit about how his dad tried to cure him of cigarette smoking.

http://gawker.com/5629650/norm-macdonald-on-the-effects-of-smoking

What could possibly go wrong.

I will say I grew up in NO where we hit the bars early in our young academic careers, mid high school is very common. I went to a large state college outside of LA. It was pretty funny (or sad) seeing some of the country kids come in and be completely out of their element, they truly did not know how to drink.

I don't know about these specific girls, but if they are leaving far out of town for college and if they aren't worldly enough to watch out or take care of themselves properly, then the parents ought to think about keeping them closer to home, seriously.

If we have a culture on college campuses that is so bad that you think we should limit opportunities for women, I'd say the problem is on the college campuses, not the women and their families.

Well then this parent that Cletus is speaking of better hope it's fixed before her daughters get to wherever they're going away from home by next fall. Otherwise they're at risk, wouldn't you say, sheep to wolves as it were?

I would. It's a problem that needs fixing.

I just had a real issue with you suggesting that families keep their daughters at home if they haven't partied enough. Say a rural family has twins, a boy and a girl. They're both smart enough to get into, oh, let's say Duke (pick any top tier school with a healthy frat culture). Are you suggesting that they boy be permitted to go but the girl should stay home? You see the serious problem with that, right?

I have a nephew at Duke actually.

Right, I started out with a Norm MacDonald video there so I was speaking somewhat in jest there.

It applies to boys too. LSU is notorious for this but pick your school. Boys from good schools leave town, party their a33 off and by the spring semester they're back home hitting the local Univ of __ at ____ extension, or even worse community college, just to get their grades back up and get some credits. I thought about mentioning that it includes boys as well as girls, so to answer your question, yes it does. And frats? I went to a school where guys died from hazing, at least 2 in 4 years.

I have spent plenty time at LSU too (friends, Tiger games, not school). I saw girls dumped in grocery carts in the street outside of bars, I've seen a guy rolled over, I've seen people cold cocked with a bottle, I've seen girls upside down having goldschlager poured down their throats like it was water. At my school (not LSU) a pledge was left in a field to freeze naked, blind drunk out of his gord, but he did not die. One frat had 18 pledges report to the hospital with staph infections from a single night. At Tulane a frat house burned down, another they found a dark room for what was essentially torture. Another got busted for drug distribution. Etc. Good luck to the parents out there, I wonder how naive they are actually.

Parents have to prepare their children for the world one way or the other, hopefully, because it's ugly out there.

 

[tommyboy]

all the more reason why college isn't a very good investment anymore.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

all the more reason why college isn't a very good investment anymore.

Unless you're a rapist, amirite?

 

[SacramentoBob]

This UVA case as well as the Lena Dunham book are really interesting albeit tragic and hopefully at the very least lead to discussions on campus by male and female students with each other instead of advocacy groups trying to control the narrative.

It is funny as I was getting ready to write something very similar, I certainly think it merits discussion but I doubt the drinking age ever gets lowered. I would not have a problem with the drinking age being 18, I think the counter argument will be that by lowering the drinking age to 18 you make it easier for someone 15-18 to get their hands on alcohol.

What discussions, based on the book and UVA case, should this lead to?

 

[rockaction]

With due respect to IK, I'm not sure how much of a "villain" Jackie really was/is. She could have genuinely been thrown for an awful loop by a sexual assault. Or she could be one of the crusaders that I met in the '90s that are completely odious. I've met, dated, and had personal experiences with both. We're probably never really going to know now that this has become so overtly political, and so driven by advocacy, which seems to be the real problem with the author and the magazine.

Bad move on both author and RS's part.

And frats (I was in one) can have some odd, odd rituals whereby one ought to be made of stern stuff coupled with humility if one wants to get through initiation/hazing.

 

[pantagrapher]

Sad to see so many well-meaning people unable to just accept that this girl made it up and move on.

 

[Sweet J]

A rape accusation is a double-edged sword. It is hard for the accuser to prove, and it is hard for the accused to disprove. Add in alchohol to most of the college rape situations and the water gets even muddier.

If college women want to avoid most college rape situations, don't get drunk at parties. It lowers their inhibitions and guys take advantage of lowered inhibitions. Girls may end up doing things with people they didn't want to

do them with and regret it later. If college men want to avoid being accused of rape, don't have sex with drunk women. What they do with you drunk, they may not do sober, and therefore will have regret over the whole situation.

This may lead to a false accusation.

It says a lot about how politicized this issue has become that this advice generally draws nothing but criticism when it comes from college administrators.

True. The constant theme we've seen is, with rare exception, women people respect don't get raped.

This is offensive and untrue.

 

[rockaction]

Sad to see so many well-meaning people unable to just accept that this girl made it up and move on.

It's not just that. It's that there's a movement, a lot like the '70s, and then the '90s to uncomfortably shoehorn a narrative onto facts. Those facts hurt people. Those facts cause massive policy and cultural changes, etc.

People can't move on because this is much bigger than one girl at this point, which was probably the intent of the whole shebang, which is something also to resent.

eta* Actually, I always like your posts, but this is one case where not moving on is the whole point. It's the point of the type of journalism used. It's the point where common sense and wisdom meet ideology. It's the point of legalities, for the fraternity, for the university, for the students implicated, for reputations damaged, for the girl who might have been sexually assaulted. There's no way to move on. This was bad journalism. It was sought out, bought out, and manufactured crap. RS and the author knew what they were doing, and it's sad.

 

[TobiasFunke]

This UVA case as well as the Lena Dunham book are really interesting albeit tragic and hopefully at the very least lead to discussions on campus by male and female students with each other instead of advocacy groups trying to control the narrative.

I haven't seen any mention of this, but is this a Prohibition-type problem where the answer is to amend the law, in this case lower the drinking age? Every other prohibited vice seems to produce horrible by-products that result from efforts to obtain the thing that's prohibited, maybe this is the same sort of situation.

If we let 18-20 year olds drink in bars with adults and security cameras present instead of in private residences, and also let them purchase their own alcohol instead of getting drinks of unknown potency from strange men, would on-campus rape numbers fall off significantly? I haven't been on a college campus in almost 20 years, but it seems like it's worth discussing at least.

It is funny as I was getting ready to write something very similar, I certainly think it merits discussion but I doubt the drinking age ever gets lowered. I would not have a problem with the drinking age being 18, I think the counter argument will be that by lowering the drinking age to 18 you make it easier for someone 15-18 to get their hands on alcohol.

Maybe 18 for bars and restaurants and 21 for store purchase? Obviously then there's a cost issue for college kids, but at least give them more options for safe partying.

 

[Steve Tasker]

I was at a party last weekend where one of my friends was talking about her two nieces, who are going off to college next fall. She thinks they've had no experience with alcohol, and wants to sit them down with a bottle of vodka and "teach them how to drink". She wants them to know what alcohol does to them so their first experience isn't at a college party next fall. Her suggestion was met with mixed reactions.

I kinda don't think this is a bad idea.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

With due respect to IK, I'm not sure how much of a "villain" Jackie really was/is. She could have genuinely been thrown for an awful loop by a sexual assault. Or she could be one of the crusaders that I met in the '90s that are completely odious. I've met, dated, and had personal experiences with both. We're probably never really going to know now that this has become so overtly political, and so driven by advocacy, which seems to be the real problem with the author and the magazine.

Maybe. It could be that Jackie suffered some other sexual assault that we don't know anything about. But we do now know with 100% certainty that the rape she describes absolutely did not occur. If she was attacked, it was some other attack that she hasn't described yet, not anything related to the Rolling Stone article.

 

[Tom Servo]

they truly did not know how to drink.

Somebody want to unpack this?

 

[rockaction]

With due respect to IK, I'm not sure how much of a "villain" Jackie really was/is. She could have genuinely been thrown for an awful loop by a sexual assault. Or she could be one of the crusaders that I met in the '90s that are completely odious. I've met, dated, and had personal experiences with both. We're probably never really going to know now that this has become so overtly political, and so driven by advocacy, which seems to be the real problem with the author and the magazine.

Maybe. It could be that Jackie suffered some other sexual assault that we don't know anything about. But we do now know with 100% certainty that the rape she describes absolutely did not occur. If she was attacked, it was some other attack that she hasn't described yet, not anything related to the Rolling Stone article.

True. I'm just trying to sort through the wreckage that must happen when one has been horribly abused or is under the impression that they have been horribly abused. It's just tough to go to motive is all I'm saying. I think that's why Rolling Stone has now altered its own retraction, which had gotten cries of "victim-shaming" from both the right (NR and the right blogosphere) and the left (Salon, Jezebel, etc.)

 

[Sweet J]

Sad to see so many well-meaning people unable to just accept that this girl made it up and move on.

Hold on for a second. I may be missing something, but let's boil some things down.

1. The Rolling Stone piece was horribly written in a ham-fisted after-school-special kind of way. It's really not clear how many of those "little details" were Jackie's or were provided by the author of the piece.

2. One of the major criticisms of the piece was that it was not fact-checked. This doesn't necessarily make Jackie's story one that she completely fabricated.

3. We know that SOME of the details that she alleged can be "disproven": (a) There was no "formal function" at that particular frat this night. (b) the alleged instigator "Drew" was not a formal member of the frat in question; © it appears that there are some discrepencies about what she told her friends (she was forced to perform oral sex) and what she told the papers (forced penetration); and (d) maybe some inconsistancies with her story (her being bloody) and her friends' recollection (paraphrasing: that she was "shaken and upset and something tramatic obviously happened").

Just to be devil's advocate: Do those things necessarily mean she didn't suffer a sexual assault that night somewhere in one of the frat houses?

Look, I'm not saying that UVA did anything wrong (even before the WaPo article, it doens't read like the UVA authorities did anything "wrong" or ignored her). I'm wondering if her inconsistancies really mean she made up the fact that she was sexually assaulted that night and is worthy of derision? I'm not sure I'm there yet.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

This UVA case as well as the Lena Dunham book are really interesting albeit tragic and hopefully at the very least lead to discussions on campus by male and female students with each other instead of advocacy groups trying to control the narrative.

I haven't seen any mention of this, but is this a Prohibition-type problem where the answer is to amend the law, in this case lower the drinking age? Every other prohibited vice seems to produce horrible by-products that result from efforts to obtain the thing that's prohibited, maybe this is the same sort of situation.

If we let 18-20 year olds drink in bars with adults and security cameras present instead of in private residences, and also let them purchase their own alcohol instead of getting drinks of unknown potency from strange men, would on-campus rape numbers fall off significantly? I haven't been on a college campus in almost 20 years, but it seems like it's worth discussing at least.

It is funny as I was getting ready to write something very similar, I certainly think it merits discussion but I doubt the drinking age ever gets lowered. I would not have a problem with the drinking age being 18, I think the counter argument will be that by lowering the drinking age to 18 you make it easier for someone 15-18 to get their hands on alcohol.

Maybe 18 for bars and restaurants and 21 for store purchase? Obviously then there's a cost issue for college kids, but at least give them more options for safe partying.

The problem with this is that it's going to encourage drunk driving. If young people are going to drink, better to do it at home than in a bar.

I'm all in favor of lowering the drinking age back to 18, but "reducing the number of rapes" would be something like the 27th reason on my list for doing so. That probably is a side benefit, but the drinking age should be lowered anyway even if was conclusively demonstrated that it would have no effect on sexual assaults on campus.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

they truly did not know how to drink.

Somebody want to unpack this?

Go to a Sugar Bowl featuring big state schools of your choice, you'll see what I mean.

I don't mean like Ted Stryker.