Fair isn't everyone getting the same thing. (1 Viewer)

[Hov34]

Fair isn't everyone getting the same thing. Fair is everyone getting what they need in order to be successful.

I see this quote from a lot of the teachers I work with (usually special ed).

Not sure how I feel about it. So as usual I'd like the good folks in the FFA to tell me how I should feel.

TIA

 

[skol asylum]

Equal opportunity not equal results.

 

[kutta]

I'd say fair is everyone getting the same opportunity for success. But life ain't fair.

 

[Joe Summer]

Fair isn't everyone getting the same thing. Fair is everyone getting what they need in order to be successful.

I see this quote from a lot of the teachers I work with (usually special ed).

Not sure how I feel about it. So as usual I'd like the good folks in the FFA to tell me how I should feel.

TIA

I always thought it was a B.S. quote because it was usually the teachers deciding what each kid's "need" was.

 

[NCCommish]

I'm not sure about basing a classroom philosophy on a quote from a tween novel.

 

[Cjw_55106]

As bad as it seems, some just arent going to be successful no matter what you give them.

 

[jonessed]

Life is inherently unfair from the get-go. You don't get to pick your parents.

 

[cstu]

Fair isn't everyone getting the same thing. Fair is everyone getting what they need in order to be successful.

I see this quote from a lot of the teachers I work with (usually special ed).

Not sure how I feel about it. So as usual I'd like the good folks in the FFA to tell me how I should feel.

TIA

The job of teacher is help everyone learn - if that means spending more time/effort/resources on some kids than others ("unfair") then so be it.

And if your kid isn't special needs then my advice to you is to #### about things being "unfair" and be happy your kid doesn't need it.

 

[jon_mx]

Life is inherently unfair. Seeking fairness will lead to major disappointment. Concentrate on what you do have and make the most of it.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

I use this quote on my classroom wall:

"The world needs ditch diggers, too."

--Judge Elihu Smails

 

[skol asylum]

First, let me make it very clear, poor people aren't necessarily killers. Just because you happen to be not rich doesn't mean you're willing to kill.

- George W. Bush

 

[Hot Diggity Dog]

I'm not sure about basing a classroom philosophy on a quote from a tween novel.

I'm not sure about taking advice from adults that know quotes from tween novels. Based on that , I like this quote alot.

 

[Hot Diggity Dog]

First, let me make it very clear, poor people aren't necessarily killers. Just because you happen to be not rich doesn't mean you're willing to kill.

- George W. Bush

So poverty is not an indicator of crime and violence. Check.

 

[fdas2]

Fair isn't everyone getting the same thing. Fair is everyone getting what they need in order to be successful.

I see this quote from a lot of the teachers I work with (usually special ed).

Not sure how I feel about it. So as usual I'd like the good folks in the FFA to tell me how I should feel.

TIA

As always, you should feel outraged.

 

[NCCommish]

I'm not sure about basing a classroom philosophy on a quote from a tween novel.

I'm not sure about taking advice from adults that know quotes from tween novels. Based on that , I like this quote alot.

How about adults that can use Google?

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Pretty sure everyone does not want the same things.

For instance some guy working on a rice farm in China may not really care if Antonio Gates continues to score touchdowns as much as I do.

 

[Fennis]

lets do the infield fly rule next

 

[spreagle]

Fair isn't everyone getting the same thing. Fair is everyone getting what they need in order to be successful.

I see this quote from a lot of the teachers I work with (usually special ed).

Not sure how I feel about it. So as usual I'd like the good folks in the FFA to tell me how I should feel.

TIA

"Fair is everyone getting what they need to be successful" sounds like half the commie manifesto ... "To each according to their need.".

The other half of the commie manifesto "From each according to their ability" is inferred ...i.e. where are the needs coming from ... but conveniently left out.

Lefty wordsmiths have been hard at work.

 

[Juxtatarot]

I use this quote on my classroom wall:

"The world needs ditch diggers, too."

--Judge Elihu Smails

Operating a digging machine for union wages with lots of time standing around B.S.-ing with co-workers? Sign me up!

 

[Hot Diggity Dog]

I'm not sure about basing a classroom philosophy on a quote from a tween novel.

I'm not sure about taking advice from adults that know quotes from tween novels. Based on that , I like this quote alot.

How about adults that can use Google?

never liked them much.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

I use this quote on my classroom wall:

"The world needs ditch diggers, too."

--Judge Elihu Smails

Operating a digging machine for union wages with lots of time standing around B.S.-ing with co-workers? Sign me up!

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/jobs/vacancy.htm

 

[Clifford]

I'd say fair is everyone getting the same opportunity for success. But life ain't fair.

Fair is a level paying field, where everyone plays by the same basic rules and has the same equipment. But who you are and how you play the game will never be equal nor should it.

Translate to society: policies and laws put in place that disproportionately harm one group over the other (Voter ID) or disproportionately benefit one group over the other (lobbying, tax laws) make the world unfair.

 

[Meatwad Reloaded]

I always tell the kids that fair is a place where they sell pigs and pies.

 

[Brony]

Life's not fare - Tony Banta

 

[Meatwad Reloaded]

I'd say fair is everyone getting the same opportunity for success. But life ain't fair.

Fair is a level paying field, where everyone plays by the same basic rules and has the same equipment. But who you are and how you play the game will never be equal nor should it.

Translate to society: policies and laws put in place that disproportionately harm one group over the other (Voter ID) or disproportionately benefit one group over the other (lobbying, tax laws) make the world unfair.

How does voter id harm anyone? You have to leave your house to go to the polling place. Why can't you leave the house to go get the free government i.d?

 

[Clifford]

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2015/08/state_says_it_will_close_all_b.html

http://m.snopes.com/2015/10/01/alabama-drivers-license/

My state, as you will read, enacted Voter ID and then began closing DMVs in predominantly black counties due to budget cuts.

This is expected to be reversed by federal intervention but nothing official yet.

 

[CowboysFromHell]

Life, at the most basic level, is fair. The rules that we've created to form a civilized society... maybe not so much.

 

[psychobillies]

I'd say fair is everyone getting the same opportunity for success. But life ain't fair.

Fair is a level paying field, where everyone plays by the same basic rules and has the same equipment. But who you are and how you play the game will never be equal nor should it.

Translate to society: policies and laws put in place that disproportionately harm one group over the other (Voter ID) or disproportionately benefit one group over the other (lobbying, tax laws) make the world unfair.

How does voter id harm anyone? You have to leave your house to go to the polling place. Why can't you leave the house to go get the free government i.d?

Do you have any idea how racist you're about to be accused of being?

 

[Clifford]

I don't think he's racist. But my state is a pretty great example of the end-game with Voter ID laws.

Now if you agree with the systematic removal of the vote from poor minorities, then yeah, you're a racist POS.

 

[NCCommish]

I'd say fair is everyone getting the same opportunity for success. But life ain't fair.

Fair is a level paying field, where everyone plays by the same basic rules and has the same equipment. But who you are and how you play the game will never be equal nor should it.Translate to society: policies and laws put in place that disproportionately harm one group over the other (Voter ID) or disproportionately benefit one group over the other (lobbying, tax laws) make the world unfair.

How does voter id harm anyone? You have to leave your house to go to the polling place. Why can't you leave the house to go get the free government i.d?

Do you have any idea how racist you're about to be accused of being?

There is no real in person voter fraud. None. Even voter ID supporters can find no evidence of this alleged huge threat. But then that's not what it's about. Its about keeping minorities and the poor from voting. That's it. Serves no other purpose.

 

[psychobillies]

I don't think he's racist. But my state is a pretty great example of the end-game with Voter ID laws.

Now if you agree with the systematic removal of the vote from poor minorities, then yeah, you're a racist POS.

I don't know anybody trying to remove votes from anybody, but those articles you posted really don't make that case either. More like typical race baiting to grab headlines. The first article clearly says they're closing all but the biggest four. Doesn't sound race based to me. The second one makes more leaps than you did to connect this to racism.

You live there and I don't so I might have to defer to you on this one, but it seems like a bunch of nothing to me. I happen to think that a Voter ID requirement makes tons of sense, and the people opposed to it would benefit the most from voter fraud. It's a smart political ploy to tie support for it to racism.

And just to be clear, blacks can and still will be able to get a drivers license, state ID, etc, right? It's not like they have to swim across a pit of alligators to vote now right? Just drive a little further, maybe wait a few extra minutes? Do whites get to use whites only DMVs?

Also, since we're here What does the quote below mean?

Governor Bentley has also announced that if someone is in need of an id and cannot get to any of the alternate sites for one, a van will be sent to their home so they can obtain the necessary ID. This was not a race-related move, but a budgetary problem

 

[NCCommish]

I don't think he's racist. But my state is a pretty great example of the end-game with Voter ID laws.

Now if you agree with the systematic removal of the vote from poor minorities, then yeah, you're a racist POS.

I don't know anybody trying to remove votes from anybody, but those articles you posted really don't make that case either. More like typical race baiting to grab headlines. The first article clearly says they're closing all but the biggest four. Doesn't sound race based to me. The second one makes more leaps than you did to connect this to racism. You live there and I don't so I might have to defer to you on this one, but it seems like a bunch of nothing to me. I happen to think that a Voter ID requirement makes tons of sense, and the people opposed to it would benefit the most from voter fraud. It's a smart political ploy to tie support for it to racism.

And just to be clear, blacks can and still will be able to get a drivers license, state ID, etc, right? It's not like they have to swim across a pit of alligators to vote now right? Just drive a little further, maybe wait a few extra minutes? Do whites get to use whites only DMVs?

Also, since we're here What does the quote below mean?

Governor Bentley has also announced that if someone is in need of an id and cannot get to any of the alternate sites for one, a van will be sent to their home so they can obtain the necessary ID. This was not a race-related move, but a budgetary problem

Yeah they are going to send vans for hundreds or maybe thousands of people. Bet your house on that happening.

 

[psychobillies]

I don't think he's racist. But my state is a pretty great example of the end-game with Voter ID laws.

Now if you agree with the systematic removal of the vote from poor minorities, then yeah, you're a racist POS.

I don't know anybody trying to remove votes from anybody, but those articles you posted really don't make that case either. More like typical race baiting to grab headlines. The first article clearly says they're closing all but the biggest four. Doesn't sound race based to me. The second one makes more leaps than you did to connect this to racism. You live there and I don't so I might have to defer to you on this one, but it seems like a bunch of nothing to me. I happen to think that a Voter ID requirement makes tons of sense, and the people opposed to it would benefit the most from voter fraud. It's a smart political ploy to tie support for it to racism.

And just to be clear, blacks can and still will be able to get a drivers license, state ID, etc, right? It's not like they have to swim across a pit of alligators to vote now right? Just drive a little further, maybe wait a few extra minutes? Do whites get to use whites only DMVs?

Also, since we're here What does the quote below mean?

Governor Bentley has also announced that if someone is in need of an id and cannot get to any of the alternate sites for one, a van will be sent to their home so they can obtain the necessary ID. This was not a race-related move, but a budgetary problem

Yeah they are going to send vans for hundreds or maybe thousands of people. Bet your house on that happening.

I don't understand the opposition to an ID. Is it your opinion that requiring someone to obtain a drivers license before they can operate a car is also racist?

 

[TobiasFunke]

I don't think he's racist. But my state is a pretty great example of the end-game with Voter ID laws.

Now if you agree with the systematic removal of the vote from poor minorities, then yeah, you're a racist POS.

I don't know anybody trying to remove votes from anybody, but those articles you posted really don't make that case either. More like typical race baiting to grab headlines. The first article clearly says they're closing all but the biggest four. Doesn't sound race based to me. The second one makes more leaps than you did to connect this to racism. You live there and I don't so I might have to defer to you on this one, but it seems like a bunch of nothing to me. I happen to think that a Voter ID requirement makes tons of sense, and the people opposed to it would benefit the most from voter fraud. It's a smart political ploy to tie support for it to racism.

And just to be clear, blacks can and still will be able to get a drivers license, state ID, etc, right? It's not like they have to swim across a pit of alligators to vote now right? Just drive a little further, maybe wait a few extra minutes? Do whites get to use whites only DMVs?

Also, since we're here What does the quote below mean?

Governor Bentley has also announced that if someone is in need of an id and cannot get to any of the alternate sites for one, a van will be sent to their home so they can obtain the necessary ID. This was not a race-related move, but a budgetary problem

Yeah they are going to send vans for hundreds or maybe thousands of people. Bet your house on that happening.

I don't understand the opposition to an ID. Is it your opinion that requiring someone to obtain a drivers license before they can operate a car is also racist?

You are confusing racism on its face with discrimination by disparate impact

Let's say we passed a rule that you had to go to a golf course to get an ID card that would let you vote. But don't worry, even if you don't play golf because you're too poor or you live in the city we'll send a van to pick you up and take you to your nearest golf course to get one!

I assume we'd all agree that this would be disparate impact racism, right? Even if everyone can obtain the necessary document with a little effort, there is no doubt that we'd end up with a disproportionate number of golf-playing voters, i.e. rich white suburban voters, because they'd be going to the golf courses anyway and thus wouldn't need to take an interim step before they could vote. Just pick up the card at the course and head to the polls.

That's basically an exaggerated example of what voter ID laws do. Sure, everyone can get them. But the only people who don't already have them tend to be the poor, and disproportionately minorities who tend to be both poorer (have never been able to afford a car) and located in cities where they don't have a need for a driver's license. You're making those people go through an extra step in order to vote, and the result will inevitably be that the polls will get richer and whiter.

 

[kutta]

I don't think he's racist. But my state is a pretty great example of the end-game with Voter ID laws.

Now if you agree with the systematic removal of the vote from poor minorities, then yeah, you're a racist POS.

I don't know anybody trying to remove votes from anybody, but those articles you posted really don't make that case either. More like typical race baiting to grab headlines. The first article clearly says they're closing all but the biggest four. Doesn't sound race based to me. The second one makes more leaps than you did to connect this to racism. You live there and I don't so I might have to defer to you on this one, but it seems like a bunch of nothing to me. I happen to think that a Voter ID requirement makes tons of sense, and the people opposed to it would benefit the most from voter fraud. It's a smart political ploy to tie support for it to racism.

And just to be clear, blacks can and still will be able to get a drivers license, state ID, etc, right? It's not like they have to swim across a pit of alligators to vote now right? Just drive a little further, maybe wait a few extra minutes? Do whites get to use whites only DMVs?

Also, since we're here What does the quote below mean?

Governor Bentley has also announced that if someone is in need of an id and cannot get to any of the alternate sites for one, a van will be sent to their home so they can obtain the necessary ID. This was not a race-related move, but a budgetary problem

Yeah they are going to send vans for hundreds or maybe thousands of people. Bet your house on that happening.

I don't understand the opposition to an ID. Is it your opinion that requiring someone to obtain a drivers license before they can operate a car is also racist?

You are confusing racism on its face with discrimination by disparate impact

Let's say we passed a rule that you had to go to a golf course to get an ID card that would let you vote. But don't worry, even if you don't play golf because you're too poor or you live in the city we'll send a van to pick you up and take you to your nearest golf course to get one!

I assume we'd all agree that this would be disparate impact racism, right? Even if everyone can obtain the necessary document with a little effort, there is no doubt that we'd end up with a disproportionate number of golf-playing voters, i.e. rich white suburban voters, because they'd be going to the golf courses anyway and thus wouldn't need to take an interim step before they could vote. Just pick up the card at the course and head to the polls.

That's basically an exaggerated example of what voter ID laws do. Sure, everyone can get them. But the only people who don't already have them tend to be the poor, and disproportionately minorities who tend to be both poorer (have never been able to afford a car) and located in cities where they don't have a need for a driver's license. You're making those people go through an extra step in order to vote, and the result will inevitably be that the polls will get richer and whiter.

How about if we just require the same ID to vote as we do to get a drivers license? They don't need to have a drivers license, just a birth certificate. No extra step required.

 

[SWC]

i went to a renasance fair down by kenosha once bunch of wierdos if you ask me take that to the bank bromigos

 

[joffer]

I always tell the kids that fair is a place where they sell pigs and pies.

and protest funerals

 

[shadrap]

I'd say fair is everyone getting the same opportunity for success. But life ain't fair.

Fair is a level paying field, where everyone plays by the same basic rules and has the same equipment. But who you are and how you play the game will never be equal nor should it.Translate to society: policies and laws put in place that disproportionately harm one group over the other (Voter ID) or disproportionately benefit one group over the other (lobbying, tax laws) make the world unfair.

How does voter id harm anyone? You have to leave your house to go to the polling place. Why can't you leave the house to go get the free government i.d?

Do you have any idea how racist you're about to be accused of being?

There is no real in person voter fraud. None. Even voter ID supporters can find no evidence of this alleged huge threat. But then that's not what it's about. Its about keeping minorities and the poor from voting. That's it. Serves no other purpose.

Here comes the racist deal again. I disagree with everything you posted, but it's been bantered back & forth. It is not racism, but if it makes you feel all warm & fuzzy, & above the fray call it what you want.

 

[psychobillies]

I don't think he's racist. But my state is a pretty great example of the end-game with Voter ID laws.

Now if you agree with the systematic removal of the vote from poor minorities, then yeah, you're a racist POS.

I don't know anybody trying to remove votes from anybody, but those articles you posted really don't make that case either. More like typical race baiting to grab headlines. The first article clearly says they're closing all but the biggest four. Doesn't sound race based to me. The second one makes more leaps than you did to connect this to racism. You live there and I don't so I might have to defer to you on this one, but it seems like a bunch of nothing to me. I happen to think that a Voter ID requirement makes tons of sense, and the people opposed to it would benefit the most from voter fraud. It's a smart political ploy to tie support for it to racism.

And just to be clear, blacks can and still will be able to get a drivers license, state ID, etc, right? It's not like they have to swim across a pit of alligators to vote now right? Just drive a little further, maybe wait a few extra minutes? Do whites get to use whites only DMVs?

Also, since we're here What does the quote below mean?

Governor Bentley has also announced that if someone is in need of an id and cannot get to any of the alternate sites for one, a van will be sent to their home so they can obtain the necessary ID. This was not a race-related move, but a budgetary problem

Yeah they are going to send vans for hundreds or maybe thousands of people. Bet your house on that happening.

I don't understand the opposition to an ID. Is it your opinion that requiring someone to obtain a drivers license before they can operate a car is also racist?

You are confusing racism on its face with discrimination by disparate impact

Let's say we passed a rule that you had to go to a golf course to get an ID card that would let you vote. But don't worry, even if you don't play golf because you're too poor or you live in the city we'll send a van to pick you up and take you to your nearest golf course to get one!

I assume we'd all agree that this would be disparate impact racism, right? Even if everyone can obtain the necessary document with a little effort, there is no doubt that we'd end up with a disproportionate number of golf-playing voters, i.e. rich white suburban voters, because they'd be going to the golf courses anyway and thus wouldn't need to take an interim step before they could vote. Just pick up the card at the course and head to the polls.

That's basically an exaggerated example of what voter ID laws do. Sure, everyone can get them. But the only people who don't already have them tend to be the poor, and disproportionately minorities who tend to be both poorer (have never been able to afford a car) and located in cities where they don't have a need for a driver's license. You're making those people go through an extra step in order to vote, and the result will inevitably be that the polls will get richer and whiter.

Do you realize how far you had to stretch to justify your position? As long as the requirements are the same for everybody, I don't see the problem. I've never played golf in my life, but if I had to go to a course to get my voter ID, no problem. Voting is important to me.

 

[roadkill1292]

Alabama and its neighbors have only themselves to blame for any heightened scrutiny they get in these matters.

 

[TakiToki]

Is there a lot of voter fraud going on out there that's impacting election results? I am personally not a big fan of government waste and over-regulation, so if there's not a big problem out there, I don't see why we should spend time, money and resources enacting and enforcing something just for the heck of it.

 

[Clifford]

To add some color, reports are that as little as $100k will be saved by this move. If they actually do roll vans I would think that would go down to zero pretty fast.

Tobias has it right. They passed a law that statistically impacts poor blacks more than any other group. That's pretty well established.

They then close offices in poor counties. Which have a disproportionately high percentage of poor blacks.

You can argue that the obstacle to voting can be overcome, but it is an obstacle that can't even be proven a necessary one.

It was a budget move but the disparate impact on poor blacks is undeniable.

 

[Zow]

I use this quote on my classroom wall:

"The world needs ditch diggers, too."

--Judge Elihu Smails

Go for it.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I don't think he's racist. But my state is a pretty great example of the end-game with Voter ID laws.

Now if you agree with the systematic removal of the vote from poor minorities, then yeah, you're a racist POS.

I don't know anybody trying to remove votes from anybody, but those articles you posted really don't make that case either. More like typical race baiting to grab headlines. The first article clearly says they're closing all but the biggest four. Doesn't sound race based to me. The second one makes more leaps than you did to connect this to racism. You live there and I don't so I might have to defer to you on this one, but it seems like a bunch of nothing to me. I happen to think that a Voter ID requirement makes tons of sense, and the people opposed to it would benefit the most from voter fraud. It's a smart political ploy to tie support for it to racism.

And just to be clear, blacks can and still will be able to get a drivers license, state ID, etc, right? It's not like they have to swim across a pit of alligators to vote now right? Just drive a little further, maybe wait a few extra minutes? Do whites get to use whites only DMVs?

Also, since we're here What does the quote below mean?

Governor Bentley has also announced that if someone is in need of an id and cannot get to any of the alternate sites for one, a van will be sent to their home so they can obtain the necessary ID. This was not a race-related move, but a budgetary problem

Yeah they are going to send vans for hundreds or maybe thousands of people. Bet your house on that happening.

I don't understand the opposition to an ID. Is it your opinion that requiring someone to obtain a drivers license before they can operate a car is also racist?

You are confusing racism on its face with discrimination by disparate impact

Let's say we passed a rule that you had to go to a golf course to get an ID card that would let you vote. But don't worry, even if you don't play golf because you're too poor or you live in the city we'll send a van to pick you up and take you to your nearest golf course to get one!

I assume we'd all agree that this would be disparate impact racism, right? Even if everyone can obtain the necessary document with a little effort, there is no doubt that we'd end up with a disproportionate number of golf-playing voters, i.e. rich white suburban voters, because they'd be going to the golf courses anyway and thus wouldn't need to take an interim step before they could vote. Just pick up the card at the course and head to the polls.

That's basically an exaggerated example of what voter ID laws do. Sure, everyone can get them. But the only people who don't already have them tend to be the poor, and disproportionately minorities who tend to be both poorer (have never been able to afford a car) and located in cities where they don't have a need for a driver's license. You're making those people go through an extra step in order to vote, and the result will inevitably be that the polls will get richer and whiter.

Do you realize how far you had to stretch to justify your position? As long as the requirements are the same for everybody, I don't see the problem. I've never played golf in my life, but if I had to go to a course to get my voter ID, no problem. Voting is important to me.

I'm glad that it's important to you, but it's not important to everyone. Lots of people, blacks and whites, and rich and poor, won't vote if it's made less convenient. Whether you think those people should be accommodated or not doesn't matter, it's just a fact. So if you do something that makes it less convenient for poor people and people who live in cities (both groups being disproportionately black) you've passed a law that, while not racist on its face, disproportionately impacts black people. That's a terrible thing to do when we're talking about something as fundamental and important as voting.

Let's flip the script. Imagine that someone passed a law that said that polling places would only be located in places that have a population density of 10,000 people per square mile or greater. Here's a list of them. In states that don't have any such cities we'll set up polling stations only in the city with the greatest population.

That law would have a practical purpose that has nothing to do with the makeup of voters- it would save a ton of money and effort by centralizing polling where the most people live. In fact it makes a lot more sense than voter ID laws, the cost and difficulty of holding national elections is far greater than any problem we might have with voter fraud. Sure, some people would have a harder time getting to the polls than others. But like you said, if voting is important to you you'll find a way to get it done.

Sound like a good law to you?

 

[Psychopav]

Fair is foul and foul is fair.

 

[Clifford]

I think you're being too kind when you say less convenient. For people who have no drivers license (because they are too poor to need one) you're talking about now having to take an entire day off work to go to the DMV to get a license. And there is no law saying employers have to allow a day off to get those done. Which means the full day trip to the DMV could cost this person their job which would be pretty disastrous. Worst case scenario. Best case is you have to find a friend or relative with a car who can take you which means two people taking a day off work. So, it's worse than less convenient. It's an unreasonable burden to place on the poorest citizens just to maintain the right to vote.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Life, at the most basic level, is fair. The rules that we've created to form a civilized society... maybe not so much.

I know this thread is in the process of turning into another "voter ID" thread, but before it does, I want to emphasize how strongly I disagree with this statement.

At it's most basic level, life is wildly unfair. Some people are lucky enough to be physically strong and mentally sharp. In a state of nature, those people are going to be able to steal from and conquer those who are weaker and duller. The entire reason why society exists at all is to prevent that from happening -- i.e. making life more fair. As far as I know, everyone who is not an anarchist sees that as the primary reason why we have a government. Our disagreements stem from disparate opinions on how far the government can legitimately go to protect or enhance the well-being of particular people.

 

[Cjw_55106]

I think you're being too kind when you say less convenient. For people who have no drivers license (because they are too poor to need one) you're talking about now having to take an entire day off work to go to the DMV to get a license. And there is no law saying employers have to allow a day off to get those done. Which means the full day trip to the DMV could cost this person their job which would be pretty disastrous. Worst case scenario. Best case is you have to find a friend or relative with a car who can take you which means two people taking a day off work. So, it's worse than less convenient. It's an unreasonable burden to place on the poorest citizens just to maintain the right to vote.

How do people like those in your scenario, cash their paychecks without IDs?

 

[psychobillies]

I think you're being too kind when you say less convenient. For people who have no drivers license (because they are too poor to need one) you're talking about now having to take an entire day off work to go to the DMV to get a license. And there is no law saying employers have to allow a day off to get those done. Which means the full day trip to the DMV could cost this person their job which would be pretty disastrous. Worst case scenario. Best case is you have to find a friend or relative with a car who can take you which means two people taking a day off work. So, it's worse than less convenient. It's an unreasonable burden to place on the poorest citizens just to maintain the right to vote.

How do people like those in your scenario, cash their paychecks without IDs?

Excellent point.

I don't think he's racist. But my state is a pretty great example of the end-game with Voter ID laws.

Now if you agree with the systematic removal of the vote from poor minorities, then yeah, you're a racist POS.

I don't know anybody trying to remove votes from anybody, but those articles you posted really don't make that case either. More like typical race baiting to grab headlines. The first article clearly says they're closing all but the biggest four. Doesn't sound race based to me. The second one makes more leaps than you did to connect this to racism. You live there and I don't so I might have to defer to you on this one, but it seems like a bunch of nothing to me. I happen to think that a Voter ID requirement makes tons of sense, and the people opposed to it would benefit the most from voter fraud. It's a smart political ploy to tie support for it to racism.

And just to be clear, blacks can and still will be able to get a drivers license, state ID, etc, right? It's not like they have to swim across a pit of alligators to vote now right? Just drive a little further, maybe wait a few extra minutes? Do whites get to use whites only DMVs?

Also, since we're here What does the quote below mean?

Governor Bentley has also announced that if someone is in need of an id and cannot get to any of the alternate sites for one, a van will be sent to their home so they can obtain the necessary ID. This was not a race-related move, but a budgetary problem

Yeah they are going to send vans for hundreds or maybe thousands of people. Bet your house on that happening.

I don't understand the opposition to an ID. Is it your opinion that requiring someone to obtain a drivers license before they can operate a car is also racist?

You are confusing racism on its face with discrimination by disparate impact

Let's say we passed a rule that you had to go to a golf course to get an ID card that would let you vote. But don't worry, even if you don't play golf because you're too poor or you live in the city we'll send a van to pick you up and take you to your nearest golf course to get one!

I assume we'd all agree that this would be disparate impact racism, right? Even if everyone can obtain the necessary document with a little effort, there is no doubt that we'd end up with a disproportionate number of golf-playing voters, i.e. rich white suburban voters, because they'd be going to the golf courses anyway and thus wouldn't need to take an interim step before they could vote. Just pick up the card at the course and head to the polls.

That's basically an exaggerated example of what voter ID laws do. Sure, everyone can get them. But the only people who don't already have them tend to be the poor, and disproportionately minorities who tend to be both poorer (have never been able to afford a car) and located in cities where they don't have a need for a driver's license. You're making those people go through an extra step in order to vote, and the result will inevitably be that the polls will get richer and whiter.

Do you realize how far you had to stretch to justify your position? As long as the requirements are the same for everybody, I don't see the problem. I've never played golf in my life, but if I had to go to a course to get my voter ID, no problem. Voting is important to me.

I'm glad that it's important to you, but it's not important to everyone. Lots of people, blacks and whites, and rich and poor, won't vote if it's made less convenient. Whether you think those people should be accommodated or not doesn't matter, it's just a fact. So if you do something that makes it less convenient for poor people and people who live in cities (both groups being disproportionately black) you've passed a law that, while not racist on its face, disproportionately impacts black people. That's a terrible thing to do when we're talking about something as fundamental and important as voting.

Let's flip the script. Imagine that someone passed a law that said that polling places would only be located in places that have a population density of 10,000 people per square mile or greater. Here's a list of them. In states that don't have any such cities we'll set up polling stations only in the city with the greatest population.

That law would have a practical purpose that has nothing to do with the makeup of voters- it would save a ton of money and effort by centralizing polling where the most people live. In fact it makes a lot more sense than voter ID laws, the cost and difficulty of holding national elections is far greater than any problem we might have with voter fraud. Sure, some people would have a harder time getting to the polls than others. But like you said, if voting is important to you you'll find a way to get it done.

Sound like a good law to you?

If it's not important to them, why am I supposed to give a ####? Driving, getting a job, cashing checks, opening bank accounts, getting on any kind of gov't assistance, going to the doctor, and many other things all require a person to have ID. Are all of those things racist? At some point it is entirely reasonable to put the responsibility of achieving some goals on the individual.

Does your non applicable hypothetical sound like a good law to me? No, not really, but if it went down that way, I'd deal with it.

Let me ask you this. Why have any voter qualifications or registration at all? Sounds like one big inconvenience to me. Just let people walk into any polling station whenever they want and just tell them to be honest. No rolls or anything just a big unmanned computer. Make sure to tell all of the felons and illegal immigrants that they shouldn't be there because obviously they wouldn't do anything dishonest. Sound like a good idea to you?

Can someone point me to somebody who has been disenfranchised by voter ID laws? Seriously, why is this such a crucial issue to the Dems?

 

[CowboysFromHell]

Life, at the most basic level, is fair. The rules that we've created to form a civilized society... maybe not so much.

I know this thread is in the process of turning into another "voter ID" thread, but before it does, I want to emphasize how strongly I disagree with this statement.

At it's most basic level, life is wildly unfair. Some people are lucky enough to be physically strong and mentally sharp. In a state of nature, those people are going to be able to steal from and conquer those who are weaker and duller. The entire reason why society exists at all is to prevent that from happening -- i.e. making life more fair. As far as I know, everyone who is not an anarchist sees that as the primary reason why we have a government. Our disagreements stem from disparate opinions on how far the government can legitimately go to protect or enhance the well-being of particular people.

The basic laws of nature apply uniformly to all. Physics could not be any more "fair". The playing field is level. Sure, some will be stronger, and some will be weaker, and you may call that "luck". But it's really a culmination of eons of genetic evolution. We, and every other organism we know of, are constantly working to improve our ability to gain scarce resources and then pass our successes on to our offspring. Each individual, therefore, may be born into a situation where their minuscule life starts off either better or worse, depending on how much success their ancestors had. Does that make life not "fair" for a certain number of individuals? Perhaps. And, we, as a species, have for the most part decided this is not the way we want to live. There are a lot of benefits to working together and sharing resources. We've developed our own system of fairness, and I would probably agree it's a better system than the pure, biological, survival of the fittest model.