Farve to Report this Weekend (1 Viewer)

[CletiusMaximus]

Actually, he does have a "no-trade clause"

http://www.nfl.com/news/story;jsessionid=4...mp;confirm=true

In that article by Adam Schefter:

Without having an official no-trade clause in his contract, Favre has an unofficial no-trade clause in the leverage he has.

If the Packers agree to trade Favre to any team, the quarterback can veto the deal simply by declining to report. Then Favre's rights would revert back to Green Bay, which would be forced to take him back along with his $12 million base salary -- or release him.

I just read that article and it keeps saying he has those rights, but there is no official NFL rule regarding it.So what does Favre have that "veto" right if there is no rule and nothing written in his contract????

Your first post was correct, and Schefter is partially correct. The contract does not have a "no-trade" clause, but Favre could of course refuse to report to the team he is traded to, ala Jake Plummer. The terms of the trade would then govern. In Plummer's case, the Bucs had to convey only a 7th round pick under the trade terms, but they still held his rights and ended up with the rights to the $7MM unerned bonus when he retired. The trade terms could also provide that the trade is voided if Favre refuses to report, which is what Schefter alludes to above.This is how Tom Silverstein put it in a blog post at jsonline.com:

He does not have a no-trade clause and there is no rule that veterans with 10 or more years can dictate where they are traded. Favre does have control this way, however:

He can refuse to report if he doesn't like the team the Packers trade him to. The Packers are aware of this and teams who are interested are aware of it, too. That's why the Packers are giving teams permission to talk to him.

But what if the Packers want to trade him just to get him out of their hair? They could do it. Some team might think it can eventually convince him to play for them, the same way the Packers did with with tight end Keith Jackson back in 1995.

General manager Ron Wolf traded a second-round pick to the Miami Dolphins for the right to the talented tight end. Jackson refused to report after the trade and sat out all of training camp and part of the year before finally deciding he wanted to play.

Another case like that involves quarterback Jake Plummer. In March of 2007, the Broncos traded Plummer to Tampa Bay for a 2008 fourth-round selection. However, under the terms of the trade Plummer had to report for duty before the 2008 draft or the pick reverted to a seventh-rounder in '08.

Plummer never reported and the Buccaneers gave up a seventh-round pick. The Buccaneers did get something out of it, however. They inherited the unamortized portion of Plummer's original signing bonus, which Plummer had to repay when he retired before his contract was up.

Instead of the Broncos getting back $7 million of the signing bonus they paid Plummer, the Buccaneers got it. Eventually the two sides agreed upon a $3.5 million settlement.

With Favre, there is only $1.4 million of unamoritized money remaining in his contract, so that won't be a factor. I'm still trying to find out whether Favre owes that to the Packers or whether he would owe it to a team he gets traded to.

So what is Adam Schefter talking about then? He also states in his article that there is not the 10 year veteran rule in the NFL, but still says Favre can basically veto the trade due to something he alludes to being in Favre's contract, but he doesn't really elaborate as to what that is. I'm just confused now. I thought Adam Schefter was a pretty reliable source.

Schefter specifically acknowleges that the Favre contract does not have a "no-trade" clause:"Without having an official no-trade clause in his contract, Favre has an unofficial no-trade clause in the leverage he has."

The "unofficial" leverage he has is the fact that every team knows he doesn't have to report ala the Jake Plummer and Keith Jackson examples listed above. Schefter is implicitly recognizing that any team that trades for Favre will want to talk with him first, and if they can't get his agreement they won't do the deal. The other (unlikely) option is they will do the deal anyway (as Ron Wolf did for Jackson), but will include a clause that negates the compensation owed if Favre doesn't report (similar to what Tampa did - providing that the comp. for Plummer went from a 4th round to a 7th round pick if he did not report by a certain date).

 

[mozzy84]

Favre: Not Interested in Talking About Jets, Bucs

July 25, 2008 by sfhayes

Stranger and stranger. Chris Mortensen reported that Ted Thompson and Brett Favre spoke yesterday and that Favre told Thompson he planned to report to camp. Thompson told Favre that both the Bucaneers and Jets were interested in trading for him and, according to Mortensen, Favre was “not interested” in talking about those trades.

If Favre refuses to be traded to a playoff contender like Tampa Bay, he will confirm the growing suspicions many of us have that he orchestrated this entire thing so that he could play for the Vikings.

What little respect I had left for this guy is gone. I hope he ends up holding a clipboard in GB.

Why is that? It's in his contract that he doesn't have to accept a trade. It looks like he is planning to report to camp and honor his contract. If the Packers were smart they'd be welcoming him back with open arms.

I am a lifelong Packer fan, and enjoyed BF while he played. What a disgrace this jaded diva has become the last month and it is causing me and other fans to project venom on the once deity-like Favre. I know others feel the exact opposite and that it's the organization is in the wrong here, and I'm ok being the polar opposite. If Favre doesn't want to be traded I see three options:

1) trade him anyway to a willing participant for a conditional pick (i.e. if Favre plays zero games and re-retires, they get no compensation, but that team then holds his rights, if he plays 1 to 4 games = 5th rd pick, 5-8 games = 4th round, 9 or more = 3rd round) with the clause that if they re-trade Favre to MIN it will cost them 2 first round picks (or something like that)

2) Make life miserable for him since he's doing the same to the team by the distractions his causing; no days off, practicing 2nd or 3rd string, whatever they could think of. If he sticks around through that and is still unwilling to be traded, cut him the eve before he's due his $12 mil. At that point, even if MIN picks him up, it will be many weeks, if at all, before he acclimates to the scheme. The circus this will cause if this happens will leave a black mark on the organization, but what the hell. As Verbal Kint said of Kaiser Soze: "Then he (TT) showed those men of will (Favre/Cook) what will really was"

3) Accept him back, will make the Packers a circus this training camp, but in the end may provide the most competetive team in the NFC. I think too many bridges have burned for this to happen.

I'm in the camp as you brother. It's about the name on the front of the jersey, not the back of it. I am getting to the point where I would be fine if the Packers just traded him to Minnesota for a 1st and a 3rd. Let them inherit it. After 2 seasons they will be searching for their qb of the future again.

I would be first in line with gas can and matches at winter park if that scenario went down. What packer fan wouldn't be happy about that.

 

[Phurfur]

As of 4 PM EST today Favre has not filed for reinstatement. WTF is wrong with this guy?

 

[vitaflo]

Why is that? It's in his contract that he doesn't have to accept a trade.

I wish people would stop saying this. It is NOT in his contract. The Packers are free to trade him to any team that wants him. The only thing Brett can do is not report to the new team, but the new team is stuck with him, not the Packers.Obviously, the Packers want to trade him to a team that he will report to, in order to get the most value. But that doesn't mean Brett has any say in a trade deal.

 

[gump]

Gruden just said that the rumor is speculation, but used a lot of qualifiers such as "that I know of" and "and of right now".

 

[CletiusMaximus]

widely reported now that the Bucs have also received permission to speak with Favre

 

[mozzy84]

Why is that? It's in his contract that he doesn't have to accept a trade.

I wish people would stop saying this. It is NOT in his contract. The Packers are free to trade him to any team that wants him. The only thing Brett can do is not report to the new team, but the new team is stuck with him, not the Packers.Obviously, the Packers want to trade him to a team that he will report to, in order to get the most value. But that doesn't mean Brett has any say in a trade deal.

we've been through this, it doesn't need it to be in his contract, no team is going to trade for him unless these are 100% sure he will show (unless they are complete idiots) . So technically yea he does have plenty of say where he goes.

 

[sho nuff]

Favre: Not Interested in Talking About Jets, Bucs

July 25, 2008 by sfhayes

Stranger and stranger. Chris Mortensen reported that Ted Thompson and Brett Favre spoke yesterday and that Favre told Thompson he planned to report to camp. Thompson told Favre that both the Bucaneers and Jets were interested in trading for him and, according to Mortensen, Favre was “not interested” in talking about those trades.

If Favre refuses to be traded to a playoff contender like Tampa Bay, he will confirm the growing suspicions many of us have that he orchestrated this entire thing so that he could play for the Vikings.

What little respect I had left for this guy is gone. I hope he ends up holding a clipboard in GB.

Why is that? It's in his contract that he doesn't have to accept a trade. It looks like he is planning to report to camp and honor his contract. If the Packers were smart they'd be welcoming him back with open arms.

Exactly...currently it does not appear he is going to try and cause a big rift right now.Not sure why thismove where he does not want to talk about the Jets or Tampa is really causing people to lose respect for him. I mean really...after the past few weeks...this is what would bother people? Quite amusing.

 

[sho nuff]

Favre: Not Interested in Talking About Jets, Bucs

July 25, 2008 by sfhayes

Stranger and stranger. Chris Mortensen reported that Ted Thompson and Brett Favre spoke yesterday and that Favre told Thompson he planned to report to camp. Thompson told Favre that both the Bucaneers and Jets were interested in trading for him and, according to Mortensen, Favre was “not interested” in talking about those trades.

If Favre refuses to be traded to a playoff contender like Tampa Bay, he will confirm the growing suspicions many of us have that he orchestrated this entire thing so that he could play for the Vikings.

Farve didn't 'orchestrate' this whole thing. Farve decided to come back and expected the Packers would welcome him back. They didn't. They decided they wanted to move on. I think the Packers did what they had to in preparing for life after Farve. Now they are between a rock and a hard place. I think Farve has a little revenge in mind now. He figures that if they don't want him then he'd like to show them they made a major mistake. The best way to do that is to go within his division and play for the Vikings. But in the beginning Farve wanted to play for the Packers. Now he feels like they gave him the cold shoulder and he wants to show he has a lot of football left. As a Bear fan this really rocks!

Some people are so uninformed on this. The Packers staff has been dealing with Favre "possibly" retiring every off-season for 6 years. They have adjusted their mini-camps to allow Favre to not attend. They have allowed him to wait until after the draft, which effects their strategy, to make a decision. They gave the guy a completely differnent locker room than the rest of the team. This year they offered to tone down his work in the pre-season to convince him to play. They then told him 2 weeks after he retired, that he could come back, and he decided again that he was going to retire. How did he not orchestrate this. For 6 seasons, the Packers have made every concession to Favre so he would keep playing. They did this through 2 general managers, 2 coaches, and 2 team presidents. At a certain point, it gets to be a little too much. Whose to say the guy doesn't decide on August 30th that he is not into again. Seriously, the guy has already changed his mind 5 times since March.

Uh oh. A certain someone will be rushing in here to defend Brett's honor in 3......2........1..........

Yawn...other than the 6 seasons part, I have said much of this already this offseason about what he has done and how he has brought it on himself (like I said in another thread...if you had read anything I have posted over the past several weeks you might have figured this out).But thanks for bringing your usual foolishness to a Favre thread.

 

[sho nuff]

Favre expected to submit letter of reinstatement to NFL by Friday

By Adam Schefter | NFL Network

During a telephone conversation Thursday with Green Bay Packers general manager Ted Thompson, quarterback Brett Favre conveyed he is planning to return to the team and report to training camp this weekend.

If he follows through on his plans, Favre is expected to fax a letter seeking reinstatement to NFL commissioner Roger Goodell as early as Friday, before the Packers report to camp on Saturday.

However, just because Favre is now planning to return to the Packers, that doesn't mean the saga is over. This is a story that has had so many twists and turns, it is conceivable it could change again.

At any point this summer, Favre still could decide to walk away from the game or Green Bay could decide to trade him. But for now, all indications are that Favre is going back to the Packers with the intention of spending this season with them.

There is plenty of smoothing over to be done, however that process already has kicked off. The conversation between Favre and Thompson was said to be cordial and professional, and the Packers recognize that they are a better team with their iconic quarterback on the roster.

Thompson even said during Thursday's annual shareholders meeting that families have disagreements, but they overcome them. Now the Packers and Favre are trying to do just that.

I think some people are glossing over the bolded and the possibility that cooler heads may prevail in this...

 

[Tau837]

Favre expected to submit letter of reinstatement to NFL by Friday

By Adam Schefter | NFL Network

During a telephone conversation Thursday with Green Bay Packers general manager Ted Thompson, quarterback Brett Favre conveyed he is planning to return to the team and report to training camp this weekend.

If he follows through on his plans, Favre is expected to fax a letter seeking reinstatement to NFL commissioner Roger Goodell as early as Friday, before the Packers report to camp on Saturday.

However, just because Favre is now planning to return to the Packers, that doesn't mean the saga is over. This is a story that has had so many twists and turns, it is conceivable it could change again.

At any point this summer, Favre still could decide to walk away from the game or Green Bay could decide to trade him. But for now, all indications are that Favre is going back to the Packers with the intention of spending this season with them.

There is plenty of smoothing over to be done, however that process already has kicked off. The conversation between Favre and Thompson was said to be cordial and professional, and the Packers recognize that they are a better team with their iconic quarterback on the roster.

Thompson even said during Thursday's annual shareholders meeting that families have disagreements, but they overcome them. Now the Packers and Favre are trying to do just that.

I think some people are glossing over the bolded and the possibility that cooler heads may prevail in this...

The only way it will be smoothed over is if Favre is the starter. I have felt all along that he should have been accepted back immediately as the starter, since he gives them a better chance to win games this year than Rodgers.But if they go this route now, with Murphy and Thompson having said that he'd have to come back in a different role and publicly backing Rodgers as the starter, how are they going to handle this with Rodgers? This is exactly why I felt the Packers handled this poorly when all this started. Yes, Favre waffled, and he can be rightly bashed for that. But I also think Thompson handled this poorly, if he's ultimately going to cave and take Favre back as the starter.

 

[mozzy84]

Favre expected to submit letter of reinstatement to NFL by Friday

By Adam Schefter | NFL Network

During a telephone conversation Thursday with Green Bay Packers general manager Ted Thompson, quarterback Brett Favre conveyed he is planning to return to the team and report to training camp this weekend.

If he follows through on his plans, Favre is expected to fax a letter seeking reinstatement to NFL commissioner Roger Goodell as early as Friday, before the Packers report to camp on Saturday.

However, just because Favre is now planning to return to the Packers, that doesn't mean the saga is over. This is a story that has had so many twists and turns, it is conceivable it could change again.

At any point this summer, Favre still could decide to walk away from the game or Green Bay could decide to trade him. But for now, all indications are that Favre is going back to the Packers with the intention of spending this season with them.

There is plenty of smoothing over to be done, however that process already has kicked off. The conversation between Favre and Thompson was said to be cordial and professional, and the Packers recognize that they are a better team with their iconic quarterback on the roster.

Thompson even said during Thursday's annual shareholders meeting that families have disagreements, but they overcome them. Now the Packers and Favre are trying to do just that.

I think some people are glossing over the bolded and the possibility that cooler heads may prevail in this...

if favre agrees to a trade then you are right, if he doesn't, well the packers are in a tough spot if they really like rogers as much as they are saying.

 

[sho nuff]

Favre expected to submit letter of reinstatement to NFL by Friday

By Adam Schefter | NFL Network

During a telephone conversation Thursday with Green Bay Packers general manager Ted Thompson, quarterback Brett Favre conveyed he is planning to return to the team and report to training camp this weekend.

If he follows through on his plans, Favre is expected to fax a letter seeking reinstatement to NFL commissioner Roger Goodell as early as Friday, before the Packers report to camp on Saturday.

However, just because Favre is now planning to return to the Packers, that doesn't mean the saga is over. This is a story that has had so many twists and turns, it is conceivable it could change again.

At any point this summer, Favre still could decide to walk away from the game or Green Bay could decide to trade him. But for now, all indications are that Favre is going back to the Packers with the intention of spending this season with them.

There is plenty of smoothing over to be done, however that process already has kicked off. The conversation between Favre and Thompson was said to be cordial and professional, and the Packers recognize that they are a better team with their iconic quarterback on the roster.

Thompson even said during Thursday's annual shareholders meeting that families have disagreements, but they overcome them. Now the Packers and Favre are trying to do just that.

I think some people are glossing over the bolded and the possibility that cooler heads may prevail in this...

if favre agrees to a trade then you are right, if he doesn't, well the packers are in a tough spot if they really like rogers as much as they are saying.

Or they have talked it over with Rodgers and have something figured out.This thing could still go in so many different directions.

 

[jurb26]

ESPN just reported GB is looking for a 1st round pick in exchange for Favre.

 

[Max Power]

ESPN just reported GB is looking for a 1st round pick in exchange for Favre.

come on

 

[monessen]

As of 4 PM EST today Favre has not filed for reinstatement. WTF is wrong with this guy?

This is the best post I've read because it represents the bottom line.Until Favre applies for reinstatement, trades or showing up at Packers' camp represent mere conjecture. The man keeps positioning himself but he won't jump into the water until he knows how deep it is and where the current will take him. That's why all the flirting with sticking his toe in. He's orchestrating a move. Adam Schefter said, a short time ago on Fox Radio, that Favre is really not playing poker here. Bull. All he's done is tease and play mind games with the GB front office.Stop playing games, Brett. Make it official. Either come out of retirement or don't. But knock off the teasing, if you can. And how about sitting down with an actual sports journalist who'd ask some good, tough questions instead of having Packer fan Greta van Sustern allow a forum for your whining?

 

[jurb26]

ESPN just reported GB is looking for a 1st round pick in exchange for Favre.

come on

Agreed. If I were the Pack, I'd tell anyone on the NFC North that the price is a 1st. Outside of that...

 

[GreenNGold]

I really think draft picks are way overrated in today's league.

If I was a GM that needed a QB, I would gladly give up a 1st round pick for Favre. The way I see it, I can either use a first round pick to get a proven, pro-bowl caliber QB on my team, at a salary of $12 million per year,

or,

Take my chances in the draft, with an unproven player, and guarantee them a boatload of money and still end up paying them a boatload of money whether they pan out or not.

 

[Max Power]

I really think draft picks are way overrated in today's league. If I was a GM that needed a QB, I would gladly give up a 1st round pick for Favre. The way I see it, I can either use a first round pick to get a proven, pro-bowl caliber QB on my team, at a salary of $12 million per year, or,Take my chances in the draft, with an unproven player, and guarantee them a boatload of money and still end up paying them a boatload of money whether they pan out or not.

Problem is that Farve is likely a one year type player. What GM wants to be looking at 2009 with no Starting QB and no first round pick.Also if Favre were to get hurt and miss most of the season...You just traded a first round pick (likely high at this point) for nothing

 

[vitaflo]

I really think draft picks are way overrated in today's league. If I was a GM that needed a QB, I would gladly give up a 1st round pick for Favre. The way I see it, I can either use a first round pick to get a proven, pro-bowl caliber QB on my team, at a salary of $12 million per year, or,Take my chances in the draft, with an unproven player, and guarantee them a boatload of money and still end up paying them a boatload of money whether they pan out or not.

This is why you are not a GM in the NFL.

 

[pacman_fl]

I am sure it's a stupid question, but if retirement papers were never filed, why does he have to apply for reinstatement? I know others have verbally retired and that was it so I am sure I'm missing something.

 

[jurb26]

I really think draft picks are way overrated in today's league. If I was a GM that needed a QB, I would gladly give up a 1st round pick for Favre. The way I see it, I can either use a first round pick to get a proven, pro-bowl caliber QB on my team, at a salary of $12 million per year, or,Take my chances in the draft, with an unproven player, and guarantee them a boatload of money and still end up paying them a boatload of money whether they pan out or not.

Problem is that Farve is likely a one year type player. What GM wants to be looking at 2009 with no Starting QB and no first round pick.Also if Favre were to get hurt and miss most of the season...You just traded a first round pick (likely high at this point) for nothing

Or what if Favre simply changes his mind again? Or what if he struggles to learn the play book? What if he just plan sucks on his new team? Favre isn't worth anything close to a 1st IMO.

 

[GreenNGold]

I really think draft picks are way overrated in today's league. If I was a GM that needed a QB, I would gladly give up a 1st round pick for Favre. The way I see it, I can either use a first round pick to get a proven, pro-bowl caliber QB on my team, at a salary of $12 million per year, or,Take my chances in the draft, with an unproven player, and guarantee them a boatload of money and still end up paying them a boatload of money whether they pan out or not.

Problem is that Farve is likely a one year type player. What GM wants to be looking at 2009 with no Starting QB and no first round pick.Also if Favre were to get hurt and miss most of the season...You just traded a first round pick (likely high at this point) for nothing

I agree, there would definitely be some risk involved. Preferably, the team could talk to Favre before the trade and get atleast a 2 year commitment out of him (not sure if that is possible or if he is willing to do that or not). It's hard to value what he is worth do to so many variables. With how hit or miss players are in the draft, and how much money teams need to guarantee to sign them, I'd rather spend that money on proven players, but that's just my bias. I really hope they fix that in the next bargaining agreement like it is rumored they will.

 

[vitaflo]

Why is that? It's in his contract that he doesn't have to accept a trade.

I wish people would stop saying this. It is NOT in his contract. The Packers are free to trade him to any team that wants him. The only thing Brett can do is not report to the new team, but the new team is stuck with him, not the Packers.Obviously, the Packers want to trade him to a team that he will report to, in order to get the most value. But that doesn't mean Brett has any say in a trade deal.

we've been through this, it doesn't need it to be in his contract, no team is going to trade for him unless these are 100% sure he will show (unless they are complete idiots) . So technically yea he does have plenty of say where he goes.

Ron Wolf traded for Keith Jackson in 95 knowing he wouldn't report, but Wolf thought he could get him to play anyway. It worked, he started a few games into the season.Not saying a team isn't stupid to take him if he doesn't want to go there, but that doesn't mean someone wouldn't be willing to take a shot and having the rights to him. Either way, it's not up to Brett if someone is that dumb.

 

[GreenNGold]

I really think draft picks are way overrated in today's league. If I was a GM that needed a QB, I would gladly give up a 1st round pick for Favre. The way I see it, I can either use a first round pick to get a proven, pro-bowl caliber QB on my team, at a salary of $12 million per year, or,Take my chances in the draft, with an unproven player, and guarantee them a boatload of money and still end up paying them a boatload of money whether they pan out or not.

This is why you are not a GM in the NFL.

Actually, no. There are hundreds of other reasons why I am not a GM in the NFL before that one. #1 being I have never been involved in organized football in any way, shape, or form, at any level from pee-wee all the way up. #2 being I have never tried to become one and chose a different career pathThat doesn't I can't form an opinion on the matter. So you think 1st round draft picks are being paid just right? I think they are way overpaid and should need to prove themselves like they do in every sport before they get their huge contract. I guess that is why your not a GM in the NFL.

 

[MCguidance]

If they want a first round pick, I surely hope the Jets would drop out of the running. Just too much risk and short term reward for such a hefty price.

 

[vitaflo]

I am sure it's a stupid question, but if retirement papers were never filed, why does he have to apply for reinstatement? I know others have verbally retired and that was it so I am sure I'm missing something.

The Packers put Favre on the reserve/retired list in April to make room for other players and take his money off the cap. As such, Favre has to send a letter to the league to be reinstated to the Packers.

 

[pacman_fl]

I am sure it's a stupid question, but if retirement papers were never filed, why does he have to apply for reinstatement? I know others have verbally retired and that was it so I am sure I'm missing something.

The Packers put Favre on the reserve/retired list in April to make room for other players and take his money off the cap. As such, Favre has to send a letter to the league to be reinstated to the Packers.

Thank you - I assumed it was something that simple. I'll let everyone get back to the speculation. Hopefully I will wake up when something really happens.

 

[StuntMonkee]

From FanBall

Favre deal on horizon?

The News

Yahoo Sports indicates that the Packers are nearing a deal for Brett Favre.

Our View

A basic agreement has been reached, with the Packers coming up with a list of teams willing to trade for Favre, then presenting him with the list to find out where Favre would prefer to play.

 

[Beergogglz]

I really think draft picks are way overrated in today's league. If I was a GM that needed a QB, I would gladly give up a 1st round pick for Favre. The way I see it, I can either use a first round pick to get a proven, pro-bowl caliber QB on my team, at a salary of $12 million per year, or,Take my chances in the draft, with an unproven player, and guarantee them a boatload of money and still end up paying them a boatload of money whether they pan out or not.

This is why you are not a GM in the NFL.

...but instead an unabashed Favre/Packer fan. Can't see the forest for the trees, it seems.

 

[trader jake]

Is anyone else just about Favred out....How much more can this be covered?

Now imagine he's black [/FFA shtick] you live in Wisconsin and are a die hard Packer fan.You think you're sick of it? That's why 3/4 of us Cheeseheads just want this over and if TT can trade him away we won't have to deal with this crap anymore. Of course Rodgers could be a disaster and we'll all wish TT would have just taken Brett back. Or TT will take Favre back and we'll basically forget all of this when the Pack kicks the hell out of the Vikings week 1.

 

[fatness]

And the truth lies somewhere in between. Amazing how polarized he makes people isn't it?

I agree. I am definitely a Favre suporter though, so I just don't understand all the hatred towards him. People are making him out to be worse than Pacman Jones, Chris Henry, etc..

Straw man argument.Where did people do that?

 

[Beergogglz]

And the truth lies somewhere in between. Amazing how polarized he makes people isn't it?

I agree. I am definitely a Favre suporter though, so I just don't understand all the hatred towards him. People are making him out to be worse than Pacman Jones, Chris Henry, etc..

No, he's not in that realm, but the bottom line is he's acting like a spoiled brat with a serious sense of entitlement here. People don't like that.

 

[twistd]

Favre: Not Interested in Talking About Jets, Bucs

July 25, 2008 by sfhayes

Stranger and stranger. Chris Mortensen reported that Ted Thompson and Brett Favre spoke yesterday and that Favre told Thompson he planned to report to camp. Thompson told Favre that both the Bucaneers and Jets were interested in trading for him and, according to Mortensen, Favre was “not interested” in talking about those trades.

If Favre refuses to be traded to a playoff contender like Tampa Bay, he will confirm the growing suspicions many of us have that he orchestrated this entire thing so that he could play for the Vikings.

Farve didn't 'orchestrate' this whole thing. Farve decided to come back and expected the Packers would welcome him back. They didn't. They decided they wanted to move on. I think the Packers did what they had to in preparing for life after Farve. Now they are between a rock and a hard place. I think Farve has a little revenge in mind now. He figures that if they don't want him then he'd like to show them they made a major mistake. The best way to do that is to go within his division and play for the Vikings. But in the beginning Farve wanted to play for the Packers. Now he feels like they gave him the cold shoulder and he wants to show he has a lot of football left. As a Bear fan this really rocks!

Some people are so uninformed on this. The Packers staff has been dealing with Favre "possibly" retiring every off-season for 6 years. They have adjusted their mini-camps to allow Favre to not attend. They have allowed him to wait until after the draft, which effects their strategy, to make a decision. They gave the guy a completely differnent locker room than the rest of the team. This year they offered to tone down his work in the pre-season to convince him to play. They then told him 2 weeks after he retired, that he could come back, and he decided again that he was going to retire. How did he not orchestrate this. For 6 seasons, the Packers have made every concession to Favre so he would keep playing. They did this through 2 general managers, 2 coaches, and 2 team presidents. At a certain point, it gets to be a little too much. Whose to say the guy doesn't decide on August 30th that he is not into again. Seriously, the guy has already changed his mind 5 times since March.

I am not implying that I think the Packers have done anything wrong. I realize that the Packers have bent over backwards to accommodate him. But I think Farve feels short changed in this circumstance. He feels they would welcome him with open arms and they didn't. So now he is pissed about it. That is his perception. I think that the Packers have been perfectly reasonable. But I still believe that the Packers have a much better chance of winning a Super Bowl with Farve than without. Herein lies the problem. When Aaron Rodgers is sitting on the sideline with an injury come early November, and they are relying on Brian Brohm to carry them into the playoffs, perhaps the thought of having Farve taking the snaps might look pretty good.

 

[ScottyFargo]

Favre: Not Interested in Talking About Jets, Bucs

July 25, 2008 by sfhayes

Stranger and stranger. Chris Mortensen reported that Ted Thompson and Brett Favre spoke yesterday and that Favre told Thompson he planned to report to camp. Thompson told Favre that both the Bucaneers and Jets were interested in trading for him and, according to Mortensen, Favre was “not interested” in talking about those trades.

If Favre refuses to be traded to a playoff contender like Tampa Bay, he will confirm the growing suspicions many of us have that he orchestrated this entire thing so that he could play for the Vikings.

its really kind of sad he actually thinks he can get away with this

Why can't he? If he really digs his heels in, he'll end up starting in Green Bay or Minnesota. For as unpopular as he currently is, he has a lot of power in this whole thing.

It is also opening everyone's eyes up to the incredible ego that he has hidden all these years.

Yeah...about that. Everybody but Packer fans were already aware of that.

 

[ScottyFargo]

Do you think GB is concerned that whomever they trade Favre to does not turn around and trade him back into the NFC North? Is that a possible scenario in any shape or form?

The Packers will put a provisions in any trade that will make it very undesirable for any team to do it. (ie - if you trade Favre to the Vikings, we get your next 8 first round picks, etc)

This is merely what Packer fans are praying will happen, not at all which makes it likely. A team will not allow trade for a commodity that he doesn't recieve full reign over how they want to deal with it. The Packers are the ones who have to move Favre, other teams do not need him as much as the Packers need to be rid of him.

From a live chat with Tom Silverstein going on right now over at JSOnline:Q: Ken of Birmingham - Sorry if this is a dumb question, but here goes: Let's say the Packers trade Favre to an AFC team...is there anything to stop that team from turning right around and trading Favre to the Vikings or Bears? Or to anyone else for that matter?

A: Tom Silverstein - The Packers would include a clause in the trade that would make it almost impossible for the other team to trade him. There would be no worry of that.

You verified your speculation with someone elses speculation? Kudos.

Right. Cause his 'speculation' isn't informed or anything like that...

I have yet to see any contracts supporting a similar anti-trade stance, so feel free to show me one, or stand by the oft repeated opinion of biased beat writers supporting an agenda.

 

[ScottyFargo]

Why can't he? If he really digs his heels in, he'll end up starting in Green Bay or Minnesota. For as unpopular as he currently is, he has a lot of power in this whole thing.

I think its quite the opposite. He has NO power in this. Its all up to GBs FO. If they want to trade him to Minnesota then he will starting there (but I doubt they will). Its not up to Favre. If he stays in GB, its up to the team, not Favre, who starts. So he has no control in the matter. There's nothing for him to do but retire (again).

Brett Favre in Green Bay will not be the starter. They have already decided that. Any amount of time he spends there further places the team behind. Green Bay will have to move him post haste, and if he holds fast, he'll get the release because even though they can afford 3 Brett Favres under their cap right now, in no way, shape, or form can they afford the drama that this entire scenario has caused. We are talking Atlanta Falcons level of press here, and like it or not, that is a distraction that these young, inexperienced team will not be able to handle. Especially after Rodgers falters in week 1.

 

[ScottyFargo]

Favre: Not Interested in Talking About Jets, Bucs

July 25, 2008 by sfhayes

Stranger and stranger. Chris Mortensen reported that Ted Thompson and Brett Favre spoke yesterday and that Favre told Thompson he planned to report to camp. Thompson told Favre that both the Bucaneers and Jets were interested in trading for him and, according to Mortensen, Favre was “not interested” in talking about those trades.

If Favre refuses to be traded to a playoff contender like Tampa Bay, he will confirm the growing suspicions many of us have that he orchestrated this entire thing so that he could play for the Vikings.

What little respect I had left for this guy is gone. I hope he ends up holding a clipboard in GB.

Why is that? It's in his contract that he doesn't have to accept a trade. It looks like he is planning to report to camp and honor his contract. If the Packers were smart they'd be welcoming him back with open arms.

I am a lifelong Packer fan, and enjoyed BF while he played. What a disgrace this jaded diva has become the last month and it is causing me and other fans to project venom on the once deity-like Favre. I know others feel the exact opposite and that it's the organization is in the wrong here, and I'm ok being the polar opposite. If Favre doesn't want to be traded I see three options:

1) trade him anyway to a willing participant for a conditional pick (i.e. if Favre plays zero games and re-retires, they get no compensation, but that team then holds his rights, if he plays 1 to 4 games = 5th rd pick, 5-8 games = 4th round, 9 or more = 3rd round) with the clause that if they re-trade Favre to MIN it will cost them 2 first round picks (or something like that)

2) Make life miserable for him since he's doing the same to the team by the distractions his causing; no days off, practicing 2nd or 3rd string, whatever they could think of. If he sticks around through that and is still unwilling to be traded, cut him the eve before he's due his $12 mil. At that point, even if MIN picks him up, it will be many weeks, if at all, before he acclimates to the scheme. The circus this will cause if this happens will leave a black mark on the organization, but what the hell. As Verbal Kint said of Kaiser Soze: "Then he (TT) showed those men of will (Favre/Cook) what will really was"

3) Accept him back, will make the Packers a circus this training camp, but in the end may provide the most competetive team in the NFC. I think too many bridges have burned for this to happen.

I'm in the camp as you brother. It's about the name on the front of the jersey, not the back of it. I am getting to the point where I would be fine if the Packers just traded him to Minnesota for a 1st and a 3rd. Let them inherit it. After 2 seasons they will be searching for their qb of the future again.

The only team that would get a 1st round pick for Brett Favre will be the team that deals him to Minnesota. And that won't be Green Bay, it'll be the Jets or Bucs. The Pack are asking for a 1st according to Michael Smith, and there is no way any team pays that for a guy that is just a hairs breadth away from being released anyway.

 

[sho nuff]

Do you think GB is concerned that whomever they trade Favre to does not turn around and trade him back into the NFC North? Is that a possible scenario in any shape or form?

The Packers will put a provisions in any trade that will make it very undesirable for any team to do it. (ie - if you trade Favre to the Vikings, we get your next 8 first round picks, etc)

This is merely what Packer fans are praying will happen, not at all which makes it likely. A team will not allow trade for a commodity that he doesn't recieve full reign over how they want to deal with it. The Packers are the ones who have to move Favre, other teams do not need him as much as the Packers need to be rid of him.

From a live chat with Tom Silverstein going on right now over at JSOnline:Q: Ken of Birmingham - Sorry if this is a dumb question, but here goes: Let's say the Packers trade Favre to an AFC team...is there anything to stop that team from turning right around and trading Favre to the Vikings or Bears? Or to anyone else for that matter?

A: Tom Silverstein - The Packers would include a clause in the trade that would make it almost impossible for the other team to trade him. There would be no worry of that.

You verified your speculation with someone elses speculation? Kudos.

Right. Cause his 'speculation' isn't informed or anything like that...

I have yet to see any contracts supporting a similar anti-trade stance, so feel free to show me one, or stand by the oft repeated opinion of biased beat writers supporting an agenda.

Feel free to show us a similar trade to one team...then right to another as you speculate?It works both ways.

 

[monessen]

I guess all the fax machines in Favre's community were broken today. Either that or the Commissioner forgot to turn on the one at the League Office. Maybe no one told Goodell something may go down today.

Maybe the Pack should call his bluff and let him report to camp. Wait, didn't he say about a week ago he would call THEIR bluff and report?

 

[ScottyFargo]

Do you think GB is concerned that whomever they trade Favre to does not turn around and trade him back into the NFC North? Is that a possible scenario in any shape or form?

The Packers will put a provisions in any trade that will make it very undesirable for any team to do it. (ie - if you trade Favre to the Vikings, we get your next 8 first round picks, etc)

This is merely what Packer fans are praying will happen, not at all which makes it likely. A team will not allow trade for a commodity that he doesn't recieve full reign over how they want to deal with it. The Packers are the ones who have to move Favre, other teams do not need him as much as the Packers need to be rid of him.

From a live chat with Tom Silverstein going on right now over at JSOnline:Q: Ken of Birmingham - Sorry if this is a dumb question, but here goes: Let's say the Packers trade Favre to an AFC team...is there anything to stop that team from turning right around and trading Favre to the Vikings or Bears? Or to anyone else for that matter?

A: Tom Silverstein - The Packers would include a clause in the trade that would make it almost impossible for the other team to trade him. There would be no worry of that.

You verified your speculation with someone elses speculation? Kudos.

Right. Cause his 'speculation' isn't informed or anything like that...

I have yet to see any contracts supporting a similar anti-trade stance, so feel free to show me one, or stand by the oft repeated opinion of biased beat writers supporting an agenda.

Feel free to show us a similar trade to one team...then right to another as you speculate?It works both ways.

All I'd have to do is point out anytrade. Once a player is traded his contract is property of the team that takes it on, and they can do whatever they want with it. It doesn't work both ways.

Favre has complete control over whether or not he wants to stick with a team. If he doesn't like the Packers adding a caveat to a contract and he is interested in pushing for a second trade, then he just doesn't report, and remains a thorn in the Packers side.

 

[sho nuff]

Do you think GB is concerned that whomever they trade Favre to does not turn around and trade him back into the NFC North? Is that a possible scenario in any shape or form?

The Packers will put a provisions in any trade that will make it very undesirable for any team to do it. (ie - if you trade Favre to the Vikings, we get your next 8 first round picks, etc)

This is merely what Packer fans are praying will happen, not at all which makes it likely. A team will not allow trade for a commodity that he doesn't recieve full reign over how they want to deal with it. The Packers are the ones who have to move Favre, other teams do not need him as much as the Packers need to be rid of him.

From a live chat with Tom Silverstein going on right now over at JSOnline:Q: Ken of Birmingham - Sorry if this is a dumb question, but here goes: Let's say the Packers trade Favre to an AFC team...is there anything to stop that team from turning right around and trading Favre to the Vikings or Bears? Or to anyone else for that matter?

A: Tom Silverstein - The Packers would include a clause in the trade that would make it almost impossible for the other team to trade him. There would be no worry of that.

You verified your speculation with someone elses speculation? Kudos.

Right. Cause his 'speculation' isn't informed or anything like that...

I have yet to see any contracts supporting a similar anti-trade stance, so feel free to show me one, or stand by the oft repeated opinion of biased beat writers supporting an agenda.

Feel free to show us a similar trade to one team...then right to another as you speculate?It works both ways.

All I'd have to do is point out anytrade. Once a player is traded his contract is property of the team that takes it on, and they can do whatever they want with it. It doesn't work both ways.

Favre has complete control over whether or not he wants to stick with a team. If he doesn't like the Packers adding a caveat to a contract and he is interested in pushing for a second trade, then he just doesn't report, and remains a thorn in the Packers side.

In other words...you cannot find a single trade like you describe where a team immediately then trades the player to another team.So you want the other side to show an instance of a trade being worked to prevent that...but you dont have to show an instance of your side...thanks...just what i thought.

Nice attempt to weasel though...or did you just not understand the bolded?

 

[ScottyFargo]

Do you think GB is concerned that whomever they trade Favre to does not turn around and trade him back into the NFC North? Is that a possible scenario in any shape or form?

The Packers will put a provisions in any trade that will make it very undesirable for any team to do it. (ie - if you trade Favre to the Vikings, we get your next 8 first round picks, etc)

This is merely what Packer fans are praying will happen, not at all which makes it likely. A team will not allow trade for a commodity that he doesn't recieve full reign over how they want to deal with it. The Packers are the ones who have to move Favre, other teams do not need him as much as the Packers need to be rid of him.

From a live chat with Tom Silverstein going on right now over at JSOnline:Q: Ken of Birmingham - Sorry if this is a dumb question, but here goes: Let's say the Packers trade Favre to an AFC team...is there anything to stop that team from turning right around and trading Favre to the Vikings or Bears? Or to anyone else for that matter?

A: Tom Silverstein - The Packers would include a clause in the trade that would make it almost impossible for the other team to trade him. There would be no worry of that.

You verified your speculation with someone elses speculation? Kudos.

Right. Cause his 'speculation' isn't informed or anything like that...

I have yet to see any contracts supporting a similar anti-trade stance, so feel free to show me one, or stand by the oft repeated opinion of biased beat writers supporting an agenda.

Feel free to show us a similar trade to one team...then right to another as you speculate?It works both ways.

All I'd have to do is point out anytrade. Once a player is traded his contract is property of the team that takes it on, and they can do whatever they want with it. It doesn't work both ways.

Favre has complete control over whether or not he wants to stick with a team. If he doesn't like the Packers adding a caveat to a contract and he is interested in pushing for a second trade, then he just doesn't report, and remains a thorn in the Packers side.

In other words...you cannot find a single trade like you describe where a team immediately then trades the player to another team.So you want the other side to show an instance of a trade being worked to prevent that...but you dont have to show an instance of your side...thanks...just what i thought.

Nice attempt to weasel though...or did you just not understand the bolded?

In simple words, you couldn't be more wrong. Who owns the contract when it's traded to another team? That's what I thought. If they value a 1st round pick that they can get from another team for Favre over the 3rd or 4th that they barter down with the Packers for Favre, then they have every opportunity to trade him. Like I said, the only precedent is any trade that has ever occured before. The player can be traded away instantly or years later, as the team who owns the contract sees fit.

Prove it wrong.

 

[Aaronstory]

Yes, the team he is traded to owns the contract. AND IS BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THE TRADE ONCE APPROVED BY THE LEAGUE OFFICE. According to the league, each trade is taken on a case by case basis. So if the Packers added language to the trade agreement stipulating extra compensation in the event of another trade of Favre to the Vikings and the league signed off on it, the team in question would have to comply.

From the link:

A popular subject contained in various e-mails we've received over the course of the day is a trade of Favre to a team other than the Vikings or the Bears, followed by a trade of Favre to a team like the Vikings or the Bears.

Don't count on it happening. Our guess is that the Packers would include in any trade of Favre to someone other than the Vikings or the Bears a provision that, if Favre thereafter is traded to the Vikings or the Bears, the compensation will increase to a first-round pick, or more.

Though the Packers can't release Favre with an understanding that he won't sign with certain teams, the Packers presumably can condition compensation on what the team that acquires Favre's rights does with them.

It's no different than, for example, the trade that gave the Broncos a seventh-round pick that would have upgraded if Jake Plummer had reported to the Bucs. Or the deal that will send a fourth-round pick from Tennessee to Dallas if Pacman Jones isn't reinstated for the 2008 season.

It's a conditional draft pick — and the condition that would increase the compensation in the case of a Favre trade would be the re-trading of Favre to a team like the Bears or the Vikings.

We asked NFL spokesman Greg Aiello whether such a term would be enforceable, but Aiello declined to speculate. He said that the trades are considered on a case-by-case basis, and that the league office would evaluate the terms that are presented, if/when trade terms are reached.

Peace.

 

[ScottyFargo]

Yes, the team he is traded to owns the contract. AND IS BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THE TRADE ONCE APPROVED BY THE LEAGUE OFFICE. According to the league, each trade is taken on a case by case basis. So if the Packers added language to the trade agreement stipulating extra compensation in the event of another trade of Favre to the Vikings and the league signed off on it, the team in question would have to comply.

From the link:

A popular subject contained in various e-mails we've received over the course of the day is a trade of Favre to a team other than the Vikings or the Bears, followed by a trade of Favre to a team like the Vikings or the Bears.

Don't count on it happening. Our guess is that the Packers would include in any trade of Favre to someone other than the Vikings or the Bears a provision that, if Favre thereafter is traded to the Vikings or the Bears, the compensation will increase to a first-round pick, or more.

Though the Packers can't release Favre with an understanding that he won't sign with certain teams, the Packers presumably can condition compensation on what the team that acquires Favre's rights does with them.

It's no different than, for example, the trade that gave the Broncos a seventh-round pick that would have upgraded if Jake Plummer had reported to the Bucs. Or the deal that will send a fourth-round pick from Tennessee to Dallas if Pacman Jones isn't reinstated for the 2008 season.

It's a conditional draft pick — and the condition that would increase the compensation in the case of a Favre trade would be the re-trading of Favre to a team like the Bears or the Vikings.

We asked NFL spokesman Greg Aiello whether such a term would be enforceable, but Aiello declined to speculate. He said that the trades are considered on a case-by-case basis, and that the league office would evaluate the terms that are presented, if/when trade terms are reached.

Peace.

This is all assuming a team accepts such outlandish demands over a retirement risk flake, who also has to sign off on such a trade. The only way that gets done is if both parties, Favre and the trading team, are cool with Favre starting there. Favre's made it pretty clear where he wants to play. He'll be released before allowing himself to be tied down to a team he doesn't want to play for.

 

[Beergogglz]

Favre: Not Interested in Talking About Jets, Bucs

July 25, 2008 by sfhayes

Stranger and stranger. Chris Mortensen reported that Ted Thompson and Brett Favre spoke yesterday and that Favre told Thompson he planned to report to camp. Thompson told Favre that both the Bucaneers and Jets were interested in trading for him and, according to Mortensen, Favre was “not interested” in talking about those trades.

If Favre refuses to be traded to a playoff contender like Tampa Bay, he will confirm the growing suspicions many of us have that he orchestrated this entire thing so that he could play for the Vikings.

its really kind of sad he actually thinks he can get away with this

Why can't he? If he really digs his heels in, he'll end up starting in Green Bay or Minnesota. For as unpopular as he currently is, he has a lot of power in this whole thing.

It is also opening everyone's eyes up to the incredible ego that he has hidden all these years.

Yeah...about that. Everybody but Packer fans were already aware of that.

It was only hidden to those who worship the man/team, it seems.....

 

[sho nuff]

In simple words, you couldn't be more wrong. Who owns the contract when it's traded to another team? That's what I thought. If they value a 1st round pick that they can get from another team for Favre over the 3rd or 4th that they barter down with the Packers for Favre, then they have every opportunity to trade him. Like I said, the only precedent is any trade that has ever occured before. The player can be traded away instantly or years later, as the team who owns the contract sees fit.Prove it wrong.

Again...if it were so simple...you could show where a team has traded a player...only to turn around and trade him right away.That is what you are claiming can happen...even asking for someone to show you where a contract was ever worded to prevent it...but you are unwilling to prove your side.Prove it wrong? You have yet to prove it has ever happened.You are begging for others to prove the other side...but are providing nothing to show it has ever happened your way before.So my point stands...While the player "can be"...has it ever happened? I am not denying it could happen...I am denying it has happened.Are you denying that a trade could be configured to keep the team that trades for him from trading him right away? Because that is what it seems.

 

[sho nuff]

Yes, the team he is traded to owns the contract. AND IS BOUND BY THE TERMS OF THE TRADE ONCE APPROVED BY THE LEAGUE OFFICE. According to the league, each trade is taken on a case by case basis. So if the Packers added language to the trade agreement stipulating extra compensation in the event of another trade of Favre to the Vikings and the league signed off on it, the team in question would have to comply.

From the link:

A popular subject contained in various e-mails we've received over the course of the day is a trade of Favre to a team other than the Vikings or the Bears, followed by a trade of Favre to a team like the Vikings or the Bears.

Don't count on it happening. Our guess is that the Packers would include in any trade of Favre to someone other than the Vikings or the Bears a provision that, if Favre thereafter is traded to the Vikings or the Bears, the compensation will increase to a first-round pick, or more.

Though the Packers can't release Favre with an understanding that he won't sign with certain teams, the Packers presumably can condition compensation on what the team that acquires Favre's rights does with them.

It's no different than, for example, the trade that gave the Broncos a seventh-round pick that would have upgraded if Jake Plummer had reported to the Bucs. Or the deal that will send a fourth-round pick from Tennessee to Dallas if Pacman Jones isn't reinstated for the 2008 season.

It's a conditional draft pick — and the condition that would increase the compensation in the case of a Favre trade would be the re-trading of Favre to a team like the Bears or the Vikings.

We asked NFL spokesman Greg Aiello whether such a term would be enforceable, but Aiello declined to speculate. He said that the trades are considered on a case-by-case basis, and that the league office would evaluate the terms that are presented, if/when trade terms are reached.

Peace.

This is all assuming a team accepts such outlandish demands over a retirement risk flake, who also has to sign off on such a trade. The only way that gets done is if both parties, Favre and the trading team, are cool with Favre starting there. Favre's made it pretty clear where he wants to play. He'll be released before allowing himself to be tied down to a team he doesn't want to play for.

Nobody has ever denied all parties have to accept the deal.And he will not be released.

 

[sho nuff]

Favre: Not Interested in Talking About Jets, Bucs

July 25, 2008 by sfhayes

Stranger and stranger. Chris Mortensen reported that Ted Thompson and Brett Favre spoke yesterday and that Favre told Thompson he planned to report to camp. Thompson told Favre that both the Bucaneers and Jets were interested in trading for him and, according to Mortensen, Favre was “not interested” in talking about those trades.

If Favre refuses to be traded to a playoff contender like Tampa Bay, he will confirm the growing suspicions many of us have that he orchestrated this entire thing so that he could play for the Vikings.

its really kind of sad he actually thinks he can get away with this

Why can't he? If he really digs his heels in, he'll end up starting in Green Bay or Minnesota. For as unpopular as he currently is, he has a lot of power in this whole thing.

It is also opening everyone's eyes up to the incredible ego that he has hidden all these years.

Yeah...about that. Everybody but Packer fans were already aware of that.

It was only hidden to those who worship the man/team, it seems.....

Not really...its a given that a super star athlete has a large ego.

 

[sho nuff]

And yes Scotty...he has made it clear who he wants to play for.

There are indications that Favre still wants to play for the Packers and will accept whatever role he’s given when training camp opens. He’s confident that he’ll be able to outperform Rodgers and force them to play him.

A league source said the word coming from Cook is that Favre’s first choice is to play for the Packers, who he thinks have as good a chance as any team to go to the Super Bowl. According to the source, Cook has expressed that to various people.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=776608Though...I will believe it when I see it and really hear him say it...as you know how I love these "league sources".