FF and the Ticking Clock (1 Viewer)

[Joe Bryant]

the kids basically laugh at Fantasy Football.

This is not my experience at all.

Same. Everywhere I go, not just in my local life, I see fantasy football as super popular among young people.

 

[Ghost Rider]

It being super popular has sort of ruined it, though. Because every website now has a cheatsheet, any idiot can sign up to draft a team and get a halfway decent team by just following the order of what the website lists in real time during the draft. The advantage the smarter players used to have, back when you had to make your own cheat sheet and come up with your own list of players, is now gone, and that has made it a lot less fun. The big local auction league we used to have didn't even get enough interest last year to keep it going because some have simply loss interest in it (for a variety of reasons). I played FF again last year after taking 2022 off (did a few online leagues), but I am not sure I will play again this year or not. It's just not that much fun anymore.

 

[JohnnyU]

It being super popular has sort of ruined it, though. Because every website now has a cheatsheet, any idiot can sign up to draft a team and get a halfway decent team by just following the order of what the website lists in real time during the draft. The advantage the smarter players used to have, back when you had to make your own cheat sheet and come up with your own list of players, is now gone, and that has made it a lot less fun. The big local auction league we used to have didn't even get enough interest last year to keep it going because some have simply loss interest in it (for a variety of reasons). I played FF again last year after taking 2022 off (did a few online leagues), but I am not sure I will play again this year or not. It's just not that much fun anymore.

I disagree. I think everyone having better teams from general information out there is a positive for fantasy and commissioners in general. You don't have as many overmatched players and you don't have to replace them as often. What I have a problem with are those playing dynasty with the redraft mentality. They generally go all-in too often, leaving the cupboards bare and team that is old and are hard to find replacements. That is from a commish perspective. As far as from a player's eye, it's still good to have players who are more on top of things, but there are other ways to gain an advantage. You just have to do more homework on players, do more study on league teams tendencies and potential needs, make wiser use of blind bidding dollars and the waiver wire, make timely trades. Not be one of those players that likes to throw poo against the wall to see if it sticks and doesn't actually look at the team they are trying to trade with to find a good fit on a trade. Don't be one of those guys that has to win every trade. Fantasy is very much fun for me right now and I look at the positives pertaining to owners having more knowledge. You just have to adjust to today's fantasy landscape rather than what it was years ago.

 

[Gally]

I played FF again last year after taking 2022 off (did a few online leagues), but I am not sure I will play again this year or not. It's just not that much fun anymore.

I think online leagues is one of the worst things about what FF was originally about. I couldn't imagine being heavily invested in a league with 11 other people I don't really know at all. What really boosted FF at the onset was it being a place where you and a bunch of buddies could get together and do something competitive and talk about football in a way that you couldn't really do before. The actual personal interaction is what brought it to a new level.

The technology of it all was a good thing......until it wasn't. Now there are so many leagues where you might know one or two people and you never meet in person makes it so much less interesting and almost robotic.

So if you only did online leagues without any real connection to the league I can understand where it just wasn't much fun. You didn't get a personal connection out of it so it became robotic. and almost just a chore that was left up to luck for 95% whether you win or lose. No real control.

 

[Gatorade]

I played FF again last year after taking 2022 off (did a few online leagues), but I am not sure I will play again this year or not. It's just not that much fun anymore.

I think online leagues is one of the worst things about what FF was originally about. I couldn't imagine being heavily invested in a league with 11 other people I don't really know at all. What really boosted FF at the onset was it being a place where you and a bunch of buddies could get together and do something competitive and talk about football in a way that you couldn't really do before. The actual personal interaction is what brought it to a new level.

The technology of it all was a good thing......until it wasn't. Now there are so many leagues where you might know one or two people and you never meet in person makes it so much less interesting and almost robotic.

So if you only did online leagues without any real connection to the league I can understand where it just wasn't much fun. You didn't get a personal connection out of it so it became robotic. and almost just a chore that was left up to luck for 95% whether you win or lose. No real control.

It was so much more fun when I was working and had leagues at work. We could smack talk all year long.
Dynasty is more fun now than redraft. With so much info available, you need to limit which experts to believe. Everybody has an opinion now and anyone can create rankings.

 

[runner06]

Some in this thread have speculated otherwise, but I highly suspect the number of dynasty leagues has increased over the last 3 or 4 years judging by the increase of Dynasty YouTube content and dynasty content behind pay walls during that same time span.

Has the percentage of dynasty leagues that have folded also increased over the last 3 or 4 years? That's definitely possible too but that doesn't mean the overall number has decreased.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I played FF again last year after taking 2022 off (did a few online leagues), but I am not sure I will play again this year or not. It's just not that much fun anymore.

I think online leagues is one of the worst things about what FF was originally about. I couldn't imagine being heavily invested in a league with 11 other people I don't really know at all. What really boosted FF at the onset was it being a place where you and a bunch of buddies could get together and do something competitive and talk about football in a way that you couldn't really do before. The actual personal interaction is what brought it to a new level.

The technology of it all was a good thing......until it wasn't. Now there are so many leagues where you might know one or two people and you never meet in person makes it so much less interesting and almost robotic.

So if you only did online leagues without any real connection to the league I can understand where it just wasn't much fun. You didn't get a personal connection out of it so it became robotic. and almost just a chore that was left up to luck for 95% whether you win or lose. No real control.

I don't see it as an either / or situation. Sure, local leagues where you know everyone are awesome. Everyone agrees with that.

But not everyone has the situation to be in a league with like minded real life people. So for them, an online league is a fantastic thing.

If you'd prefer to keep it all local, awesome. Knock yourself out. But I love the fact people who want more can play in online leagues.

 

[JohnnyU]

I played FF again last year after taking 2022 off (did a few online leagues), but I am not sure I will play again this year or not. It's just not that much fun anymore.

I think online leagues is one of the worst things about what FF was originally about. I couldn't imagine being heavily invested in a league with 11 other people I don't really know at all. What really boosted FF at the onset was it being a place where you and a bunch of buddies could get together and do something competitive and talk about football in a way that you couldn't really do before. The actual personal interaction is what brought it to a new level.

The technology of it all was a good thing......until it wasn't. Now there are so many leagues where you might know one or two people and you never meet in person makes it so much less interesting and almost robotic.

So if you only did online leagues without any real connection to the league I can understand where it just wasn't much fun. You didn't get a personal connection out of it so it became robotic. and almost just a chore that was left up to luck for 95% whether you win or lose. No real control.

Wut? Wrong on so many levels I’m beside myself.

 

[Gally]

I played FF again last year after taking 2022 off (did a few online leagues), but I am not sure I will play again this year or not. It's just not that much fun anymore.

I think online leagues is one of the worst things about what FF was originally about. I couldn't imagine being heavily invested in a league with 11 other people I don't really know at all. What really boosted FF at the onset was it being a place where you and a bunch of buddies could get together and do something competitive and talk about football in a way that you couldn't really do before. The actual personal interaction is what brought it to a new level.

The technology of it all was a good thing......until it wasn't. Now there are so many leagues where you might know one or two people and you never meet in person makes it so much less interesting and almost robotic.

So if you only did online leagues without any real connection to the league I can understand where it just wasn't much fun. You didn't get a personal connection out of it so it became robotic. and almost just a chore that was left up to luck for 95% whether you win or lose. No real control.

Wut? Wrong on so many levels I’m beside myself.

I guess I was a little strong with the "one of the worst things of FF being online leagues". What I really meant is that leagues with friends is so much better than leagues with random on line people. Those have a place for sure but if you are not feeling FF then joining a league where you don't know anyone where you want the comradery is likely not going to get you there (similar to what @Ghost Rider stated in his post).

 

[Gally]

But I love the fact people who want more can play in online leagues.

There is a difference between wanting to play more and just wanting to play. As @Ghost Rider stated he was trying to get back into it and went to a couple online leagues without knowing anyone. That is fine as additional leagues but it sounded like he wanted more out of it and on-line only leagues where you don't know anyone likely isn't going to fit that bill.

They have a purpose for sure and is definitely part of the growth but in my experience on line leagues where you don't know anybody typically is pretty terrible. You might find one with good people that you can grow to know but more often than not I have found people to be insufferable with terrible trade offers, smack talk over the top (just no talk at all) and very little connection.

As with anything else it all boils down to dealing with good people. If you can find them you will be better off. You have more of chance missing good people when you go into a completely random on line league with people you don't know.

 

[Gatorade]

Leagues at work were so much fun. Then I moved away, got too busy and cut out FF, then retired. Now I'm back, but no one around here seems to care about FF. ( Only Clemson football). Joining leagues online has been great and gives me something meaningful to do in retirement. LOL

 

[Gatorade]

Besides, you get to hang out with a bunch of old farts in this great forum. Who wants to actually see them.

 

[sushinsky4tsar]

Not a great team, but not completely barren.

It's the best gambling opportunity that anyone could ever be presented with if they have any confidence in competently managing a dynasty team.

These two statements may not be compatible. You are admitting that the team is not great so that's something and the degree of "not barren" can be in the eye of the beholder. If someone looks at the roster and says there is no chance of me winning this empire pot in the near future then there isn't a great opportunity here. If someone looks at it and thinks I may be competitive in 4 or 5 years what happens if that pot is won by then? Not a great opportunity.

I am just playing devils advocate since no particulars were given about the actual team or the other teams in the league already.

Agreed. With that context and in that format, it makes for a much more challenging league to find a replacement.

I would hardly extrapolate that as a sign of the times for FF.

Believe me, Empire Dynasty makes a lot more sense than a standard dynasty when you inevitably need to find a replacement.

Both versions are offering the same mediocre team, except the empire dynasty team has an accumulated jackpot to dangle as an incentive. This same rolling payout should keep teams from abandoning ship in the future as it gets larger and larger. I honestly don't know why people agree to take on orphans in standard dynasty, other than really wanting to have a dynasty team, having no other options, or really craving a challenge. I would lose my mind if I cleaned up somebody else's dynasty mess only to have the league arbitrarily pull the plug as my team was ready to compete.

Don't need to worry about the league abruptly disbanding in empire. If it ends because somebody goes back-to-back, then you're out the entry fee from that season, and have your seat at the reset draft.

Never heard of this format. I really like it. Only downside I see if people offering win now players to contenders to beat the current champ to keep the big payout in play. maybe your trade deadline is early enough to prevent this. For instance last place team sending Demarcus Robinson or Flacco to a playoff team for a 4th round draft pick.

I bet you'd like Empire as much as you're into FF.

I have some local friends who play in one. It's definitely more a "long term" vibe and that's fun. Back to back is tough with good GMs so it's not hard to envision the prize pool getting big.

Really a big fan of this dynasty format because of the defined end point. Thinking of calling it quits and walking away? Pretty dumb to walk away from your chance to win $5K-$10K when the annual price to keep the dream alive is only $100 (although three people have now done it in our 6-year old empire). If you're having some fun, much better to just keep at it for as long as the league is going and the jackpot is growing. If someone takes down the jackpot by repeating, the reset is your time to walk away. This is also the time to make major rule changes, such as changing from 1QB to Super-flex. It's just a more fair proposition all around. The people who pay are the ones that walk away early, not the newcomer trying to resuscitate their team (although you can combat this in normal dynasty with pre-paid seasons).

Do people gang up on the defending champion? Absolutely, and it's part of the fun to have everyone gunning for you and closely monitoring the fantasy playoffs. In practice, it really just comes down to yelling at the owners that dare to trade veteran players to the defending champ. Rebuilding teams that aren't in love with their team's outlook are going to care less if the champ resets, so they're still going to take the best offer on the table. Hence, it's not impossible to get a trade done as the defending champ. I do wish that the trade deadline in our league was much earlier than the end of the regular season. Don't do that.

 

[Gally]

Do people gang up on the defending champion? Absolutely, and it's part of the fun to have everyone gunning for you and closely monitoring the fantasy playoffs. In practice, it really just comes down to yelling at the owners that dare to trade veteran players to the defending champ. Rebuilding teams that aren't in love with their team's outlook are going to care less if the champ resets, so they're still going to take the best offer on the table.

Is there any carryover for picks, assets, etc once the "empire" is won? What is to stop the defending champ to trade all future picks for win now players to win the title and the reset the league?

I was just wondering if there was any risk (other than not winning) to doing something like this. I have been trying to push for a reset in my dynasty league (we started in 2005) and some of it is a bit stale. Plus everyone has learned so much about the league format, scoring, salary, etc that the fresh restart would be awesome but a few holdouts don't want to do it because they don't want to lose their future picks they acquired. I have suggested many different reset styles to make it somewhat random as I would prefer not to do a "lame duck" year. I have suggested a random dice roll and a three-peat clause to no avail.

Just wondering if the reset is clean or if there is any carryover at all.

 

[sushinsky4tsar]

Do people gang up on the defending champion? Absolutely, and it's part of the fun to have everyone gunning for you and closely monitoring the fantasy playoffs. In practice, it really just comes down to yelling at the owners that dare to trade veteran players to the defending champ. Rebuilding teams that aren't in love with their team's outlook are going to care less if the champ resets, so they're still going to take the best offer on the table.

Is there any carryover for picks, assets, etc once the "empire" is won? What is to stop the defending champ to trade all future picks for win now players to win the title and the reset the league?

I was just wondering if there was any risk (other than not winning) to doing something like this. I have been trying to push for a reset in my dynasty league (we started in 2005) and some of it is a bit stale. Plus everyone has learned so much about the league format, scoring, salary, etc that the fresh restart would be awesome but a few holdouts don't want to do it because they don't want to lose their future picks they acquired. I have suggested many different reset styles to make it somewhat random as I would prefer not to do a "lame duck" year. I have suggested a random dice roll and a three-peat clause to no avail.

Just wondering if the reset is clean or if there is any carryover at all.

Clean reset. The following season will be just like a new dynasty empire startup draft when somebody repeats.

The ramifications are that draft picks should be valued less in this format than they would be in a regular dynasty league where you know that you will get to see the draft pick mature, provided that you have confidence in the league not abruptly folding. Generally, 4.5 years is the expected remaining life time of a dynasty empire. Could end next year. Could end in a decade. But 4 or 5 more seasons is the middle outcome. IF you can hit on the draft pick, is 4 or 5 seasons enough for the player to hit their peak and for you to extract the benefit of their best years? No. Therefore, the picks should definitely be valued less in this format. However, unless you have a league full of really savvy sharks, you will find that many don't make this differentiation (nor is it a feature in most dynasty trade calculators). So this nuance definitely works in the favor of shrewd owners that know draft picks are overvalued in this format. But the reality is people still love shiny new rookies, even in empire.

If you have leaguemates that aren't even willing to entertain the idea of a reset / progressive jackpot for a three-peat champion, then I guess those people just have no interest in the concept. Instead of an expected lifetime of 4 or 5 years for a repeat, a three-peat is likely getting you to a decade, if not two. The big selling point definitely should be the progressive jackpot. I'm not somebody that would be comfortable with a $500 or $1000 annual entry for my fantasy team. The fact that I can dream about a potential $10K payout for winning a 12-team fantasy league in 2033 is definitely part of the fun, considering it's just a modest $100 entry each year.

 

[sushinsky4tsar]

What is to stop the defending champ to trade all future picks for win now players to win the title and the reset the league?

Nothing. Just like a normal dynasty league, the defending champ is in win-now mode and very willing to trade picks for players that will help them repeat. The fact that they end the league if they're successful in empire definitely makes teams wary of trading with them. Some owners with competitive teams flat out refuse, but trades with the champ still happen. Mediocre teams that are indifferent to a reset are more likely to deal with them. But the idea of trading a championship winning player for a draft pick that you might not even get to select, let alone see mature, definitely makes it a hard sell.

I was in a unique position this past season, as the defending co-champ due to the Hamlin situation. Me and the other co-champ were trying to repeat. However, if we were successful we would only receive half of the accumulated jackpot. Consequently, the league would continue even if one of us was able to repeat. In some ways, this probably helped our cause since teams were more willing to trade with us than they probably would have been if we posed the usual threat of trying to end the league.

What did my late projected 1st round draft pick, packaged with Courland Sutton fetch me? Dameon Pierce and a late 2nd round pick. Needless to say, not the hammer I hoped for.

 

[Mongidig]

Last year was the first year I didn't do any high stakes redraft leagues. I'm doing all Best ball and DFs now. I'm starting to travel more so I don't feel like dealing with the weekly management of the team.

 

[Soulfly3]

Some in this thread have speculated otherwise, but I highly suspect the number of dynasty leagues has increased over the last 3 or 4 years judging by the increase of Dynasty YouTube content and dynasty content behind pay walls during that same time span.

I feel like doesn't actually represent the number of dynasty leagues (I have no evidence or stats, I'm just giving my opinion...)

I think it's more a case of now EVERYONE has access to be a blogger/vlogger/voice on the internet. It costs literally nothing aside from your phone plan. Internet is absolutely flooded with people trying to make a name for themselves, yet posting videos with very, very low numbers...

TikTok is basically hundreds of thousands of people tyring to become famous and praying to make a dollar from the content creator fund. Doesn't mean there's way more actors in the world, just easy access for every dumdum to post.

 

[Joe Bryant]

What I really meant is that leagues with friends is so much better than leagues with random on line people.

Yes. I think everyone would agree with that.

The reality is some people simply aren't in a situation where a league with friends is feasible at the time. So online leagues are a great next best thing.

Stay tuned for how I think we might be able to help with creating higher quality online leagues...

 

[Soulfly3]

Stay tuned for how I think we might be able to help with creating higher quality online leagues...

Giuseppe, did I just provide you with the thread that allowed for the perfect segue for this potential bombshell?
Am I going to be able to teach the members of this forum, first hand, how elite my prognostication is?

 

[greenmountaingoat]

@Gally In order to get into dynasty, I jumped into adopting an orphan three years ago (posted on this message board) and have ended up making some on-line "friends-ish." Commish in league #1 recommended me as an adopter in another league and then the folks in that league recommended me for an orphan in another. So my three dynasty leagues have overlap and now I feel like I sort of know a few people out there. The league chat windows have been a fun place to get to know folks and try out some sly humor also, I'm "that guy" that you might get my life story if you send me a trade offer and some people have picked up on my demeanor and shared some of their story with me. It's been rewarding.

Also, the chat is a great place to delicately rip people that are nonstop with the bad trade offers and counters. It took me a while to decide to do it but the public shaming was necessary. The other members seemed to get a kick out of it.

TLDR, online only has been a good way for me to make new friends. And once I get the vibe of the league down, I can give some **** to people which is very rewarding.

 

[Gally]

So my three dynasty leagues have overlap and now I feel like I sort of know a few people out there. The league chat windows have been a fun place to get to know folks and try out some sly humor also, I'm "that guy" that you might get my life story if you send me a trade offer and some people have picked up on my demeanor and shared some of their story with me. It's been rewarding.

That is awesome. These kind of stories are great. By and large I have been very lucky in my FF life in that I have always been able to put together a league of people I know if I felt so inclined.

I started in 1985 with friends and family. That league is still going strong with probably 60% of the original owners and has been supplemented with friends. From that group we started various leagues in other sports like hockey, basketball, and baseball. Most of those fell by the wayside because they weren't as good a format. The commish from that original league and myself then started a dynasty, salary cap, contracts, IDP league in 2005 that is going strong. We started with 8 teams and it is now up to 12. Again, all with friends. Of the off shoot sports leagues we are only doing a dynasty baseball league that we created in a format unlike any other league we have seen. Again, with real life friends.

I have started work leagues for people at work and a league for my son, his friends and their fathers. So all have been with people I know. I have tried to join a few on-line leagues to try different types of leagues but I have not been lucky enough to get in contact with solid people for the most part. I did join a Zealots league from an invite I received from this forum and that league has been solid with a handful of FBG's. But other than that one league all other's have been blah.

I would think if someone is on the fence about FF either from burnout or life or whatever and they join some random on line league I think it will harder for them to get drawn back in. The best way to get back in is to join a league with at least a couple guys you know so you have some additional connection. Of course this is coming from my old man perspective that finds a lot of "online personalities" that frequent random on line leagues to be annoying or down right mean which really takes a lot away from the enjoyment.

As @Joe Bryant points out there are a lot of different ways to get into this hobby and none of them are wrong. Knowing what works best for you will give you the best shot of getting enjoyment out of it. Do what works for you. It's really the right answer.