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**FFA POKER** (1 Viewer)

IC FBGCav said:
Had an interesting hand tonight.  1/2 NL Holdem.  

Preflop action and my position isn't 100% percent clear.  99% sure I was in the blinds.  I think Preflop, it went EP raise to 6, 3 callers, Sb or button calls, I call with Kh 6h.  

Flop come Kx 9h 4h.

I check, raise to 11 from EP, fold, fold, call, raise allin to 60 from button or sb.  I call 60, EP calls 60, other caller goes all in for 196 total.  136 to me.  Everyone all in but me and EP behind me.  He has about 320 more behind.  I have him covered by 200.  

I don't ever see me folding here given that they are both all in and for the amount.  

So, call or push?  
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Kill em all and let God decide.

 
Softballguy said:
Lol. None of the opponents should have KK in their range (even though AA apparently found its way in...which also speaks to the level of play). 99 is really the strongest hand that should be possible in this situation given the pf action and 99 being the open.

This specific hand for IC FBGCav doesn't really apply, but this is exactly why the key to winning these low stakes live games is to isolate pre. You should almost never be limping; raise first in or fold, 3 bet at a higher frequency, tighten your range but increase your bet sizes. It's so much harder winning multi-way pots than it is heads-up with the way hands realize their equity.

But as far as the original question, I think I can find a fold on the flop here if I'm our hero. There are just too many ways you can be way behind or drawing dead.
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I don't disagree with you but finding it hard to fold this hand with that flop.  I think it has to be a positive EV spot.  I just don't think you can play K6s hit this flop, fold and it be positive EV play.  Now there might be another discussion playing K6 in this spot but I think that is pretty standard.

 
IC FBGCav said:
I don't disagree with you but finding it hard to fold this hand with that flop.  I think it has to be a positive EV spot.  I just don't think you can play K6s hit this flop, fold and it be positive EV play.  Now there might be another discussion playing K6 in this spot but I think that is pretty standard.
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You can play K6s in this spot pre and have it be +EV, mainly because you're closing the action, but not the way this particular hand ran out. That all changes with AhXh, but when you may not even be drawing to the winning hand, and your're pretty much always on a draw only, I think it's a fold. 

 
Little crazy hand I had while playing the other night. 

I'm playing $1/$3 NL, had bought in for $300, up early, back down after a bit, then sitting with about $400 when the following happens.  Of note, we got a couple new players at the table about 15-20 hands prior. I had been at the table about an hour at this point.

10 players, UTG guy is one of the new players and had already raised a few pots since joining. Didn't have to show much but just seemed like he had a pretty wide opening range. He makes it $10. There's 5 more callers and I'm the button and look down at 88. 

While I considered just calling, even with position, I'd rather not play this hand against so many others and figured this was a decent spot to 3-bet and maybe pick it up here and, at worst, thin it out. Over the previous hour, I hadn't seen any big preflop raises (nothing over $20) except one 3-bet between 2 players that was then folded. It's been a pretty tame game so far.

I make it $40 and try to take it here. Both blinds fold. UTG calls and has $137 remaining. UTG+2 calls and has $39 left and cutoff (guy to my right) calls. He's sitting on about $500 and seems like a decent player. 4 to the flop. 

Flop comes 5-6-7 rainbow. 

UTG moves all-in for $137 pretty quickly. UTG+1 calls for his last $39. Cutoff calls pretty quickly.

Action to me. What do you do here? What do you think people have?

 
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gianmarco said:
Little crazy hand I had while playing the other night. 

I'm playing $1/$3 NL, had bought in for $300, up early, back down after a bit, then sitting with about $400 when the following happens.  Of note, we got a couple new players at the table about 15-20 hands prior. I had been at the table about an hour at this point.

10 players, UTG guy is one of the new players and had already raised a few pots since joining. Didn't have to show much but just seemed like he had a pretty wide opening range. He makes it $10. There's 5 more callers and I'm the button and look down at 88. 

Even with position, I'd rather not play this hand against so many others and figure this is decent spot to raise and maybe pick it up here or at least thin it out. Over the previous hour, I hadn't seen any big preflop raises (nothing over $20) except one 3-bet between 2 players that was then folded.

I make it $40 and try to take it here. Both blinds fold. UTG calls and has $137 remaining. UTG+2 calls and has $39 left and cutoff (guy to my right) calls. He's sitting on about $500 and seems like a decent player. 4 to the flop. 

Flop comes 5-6-7 rainbow. 

UTG moves all-in for $137 pretty quickly. UTG+1 calls for his last $39. Cutoff calls pretty quickly.

Action to me. What do you do here? What do you think people have?
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I am not folding and I think I would just go all in here personally.  Even if cutoff has higher pair or a set which I don't think he does you still have outs.

 
gianmarco said:
Little crazy hand I had while playing the other night. 

I'm playing $1/$3 NL, had bought in for $300, up early, back down after a bit, then sitting with about $400 when the following happens.  Of note, we got a couple new players at the table about 15-20 hands prior. I had been at the table about an hour at this point.

10 players, UTG guy is one of the new players and had already raised a few pots since joining. Didn't have to show much but just seemed like he had a pretty wide opening range. He makes it $10. There's 5 more callers and I'm the button and look down at 88. 

While I considered just calling, even with position, I'd rather not play this hand against so many others and figured this was a decent spot to 3-bet and maybe pick it up here and, at worst, thin it out. Over the previous hour, I hadn't seen any big preflop raises (nothing over $20) except one 3-bet between 2 players that was then folded. It's been a pretty tame game so far.

I make it $40 and try to take it here. Both blinds fold. UTG calls and has $137 remaining. UTG+2 calls and has $39 left and cutoff (guy to my right) calls. He's sitting on about $500 and seems like a decent player. 4 to the flop. 

Flop comes 5-6-7 rainbow. 

UTG moves all-in for $137 pretty quickly. UTG+1 calls for his last $39. Cutoff calls pretty quickly.

Action to me. What do you do here? What do you think people have?
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It's a pretty easy fold IMO.  You will be drawing to a chop or thin much of the time.  

But the real mistake is the sizing of the pre flop raise.  64 in the pot to you.  Now 104 in the pot.  30 to win 104.

 
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gianmarco said:
Little crazy hand I had while playing the other night. 

I'm playing $1/$3 NL, had bought in for $300, up early, back down after a bit, then sitting with about $400 when the following happens.  Of note, we got a couple new players at the table about 15-20 hands prior. I had been at the table about an hour at this point.

10 players, UTG guy is one of the new players and had already raised a few pots since joining. Didn't have to show much but just seemed like he had a pretty wide opening range. He makes it $10. There's 5 more callers and I'm the button and look down at 88. 

While I considered just calling, even with position, I'd rather not play this hand against so many others and figured this was a decent spot to 3-bet and maybe pick it up here and, at worst, thin it out. Over the previous hour, I hadn't seen any big preflop raises (nothing over $20) except one 3-bet between 2 players that was then folded. It's been a pretty tame game so far.

I make it $40 and try to take it here. Both blinds fold. UTG calls and has $137 remaining. UTG+2 calls and has $39 left and cutoff (guy to my right) calls. He's sitting on about $500 and seems like a decent player. 4 to the flop. 

Flop comes 5-6-7 rainbow. 

UTG moves all-in for $137 pretty quickly. UTG+1 calls for his last $39. Cutoff calls pretty quickly.

Action to me. What do you do here? What do you think people have?
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Live $1-3 NL, and two short stacks, their range is pretty wide. Not even necessarily worried about a set here, although obv. possible.

I think I shove and hopefully compel CO to fold out. I don't think you can get away from this hand.

 
Do you guys real want to shove 360 instead of fold 40 here with a pair and open ended at least 3 handed?  Cutoff is never raising his strong hands here, he wants to keep hero in and probably pushing his semi bluffs.  Anyway, without knowing the players, I just fold.  The 40 preflop raise gets almost no hands this flop smashes to fold.

 
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What hands do you push here?  34, 77, 66, 55.  Maybe that's it.  I don't push 89, 76, 65, 75. 

I think I fold the rest.

I guess, 78, 88, 99, tt are hands I fold that some others don't.  You have the 88 blockers, its hard to bluff or semi bluff without one of them.

 
IC FBGCav said:
Do you guys real want to shove 360 instead of fold 40 here with a pair and open ended at least 3 handed?  Cutoff in never raising his strong hands here, he wants to keep hero in and probably pushing his semi bluffs.  Anyway, without knowing the players, I just fold.  The 40 preflop raise gets almost no hands this flop smashes to fold.
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Counterpoint: 1-3 is full or morons. Present company excluded of course. Bombs away!

 

 
He’s got a set or higher pair than you, and is trying to take it down before someone else makes a better hand. Fold is a good move here. 

 
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IC FBGCav said:
It's a pretty easy fold IMO.  You will be drawing to a chop or thin much of the time.  

But the real mistake is the sizing of the pre flop raise.  64 in the pot to you.  Now 104 in the pot.  30 to win 104.
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Don't agree here.  Given the flow of the game (it had been pretty tight, especially for a $1/3 game) at this point, there was a reasonable chance it folds around and I take it down right there. At worst, I figure I'll be heads up (which I'm fine with) or maybe 3 way. And I'm in position for the hand.

Except for the UTG player, the rest of the people in the hand at that point had been at the table with me and I had shown down some big hands. I wasn't viewed as reckless.

 
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Good Posting Judge said:
Live $1-3 NL, and two short stacks, their range is pretty wide. Not even necessarily worried about a set here, although obv. possible.

I think I shove and hopefully compel CO to fold out. I don't think you can get away from this hand.
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This was my thinking. Plus, given my preflop 3 bet, the cutoff has to be thinking that this flop isn't great for most of my expected range (any AK or AQ holding, and JJ or higher which my bet likely represented). Especially with 2 bets on that board.  So I can see him calling here without a big hand.

I'm also thinking that, even if behind, I have 10 potential outs here (two 8's, four 9's, four, 4's) so even if up against a higher pair. 2 pair, or even a made set, I can pull ahead. 

Finally, there's already $500 in the pot. 

The only person at this point I'm worried about is the cutoff. There's no way I'm folding with those outs for $140 and $500 pot already sitting there even if I KNOW I'm behind. 

I also don't think calling is a great option against the cutoff if I have any kind of fold equity against him. If I have any chance to get him out, I'm taking it and finish up against the short stacks. With the 88 blockers, I just don't see him holding a hand that he can't fold here to a reraise all-in except for a set. And even then, I'm ok with it. Plus, if the turn brings any card I'm looking for, action is going to get killed.

So I shoved.....

 
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I shove and the cutoff makes the call pretty quickly but doesn't seemed thrilled with it. He actually states why and it made sense. 

UTG guy flips over A7hh -- In hindsight, it makes sense although I think his call of my 3 bet was pretty loose. Not horrible, but not great. I understand his shove on the flop. I think if he folds to my 3 bet, this hand is a little different as you'll see.

UTG+1 flips over.....88. WTF. Last thing I was expecting but also makes sense with how the hand played out.

Cutoff turns over 34. Obviously a really loose prelop call, but when he's last to act preflop with $154 in the pot and $30 to call, he almost has to. This is why I think if UTG folds preflop, cutoff likely folds too and I'm just chopping with 88. 

Anyway, he calls my all-in but isn't happy because he doesn't want to see any other cards that improved the board.

Turn was a 9 and that ended the hand for the 2 guys. UTG+1 and I split the main pot and I took the rest down for a decent sized pot.

I really wasn't expecting 34 as a holding but thinking back I got it. 

Anyway, pretty crazy hand I thought overall.

 
Finally, I looked at some odds calcs to see where I was (I had a general idea when I was making my decision, but I always like to look afterward in a hand like this)

Up against 2 pair -- ~50/50

Up against 55, 66, or 77 -- ~70/30 dog

Up against 10's or better -- ~60/40 dog

Up against 99 -- ~75/25 dog

Up against 89 -- ~85/15 dog and that's to chop (< 2% chance of winning outright)

Up against 34 -- ~70/30 dog

I listed those above in the order that I thought he might be holding.  I'm not including lesser holdings that he could have that I'm smashing (33, 44, 78, 45, A7, 9-10).

Based on how the hand played, I thought there was no chance he's holding AA or KK.  I also wasn't expecting 34 at all (honestly didn't even consider that in my decision making).  And I thought 89 was pretty unlikely with my 88. 

I had him on 2 pair or possible set.  Up against 2 pair, I thought the odds had me slightly behind.  Up against a set, I thought it was more like 60/40, but either way, both would be ok. 

I think he's folding anything except 34, 89, a set, and likely AA and KK to a reraise all-in.  Two pair he MIGHT call.  Even 10's or J's he likely lays it down to a reraise to his call.  And since I figured the only thing he might have out of that that he's not folding is a set or 2 pair, I thought the raise was a good play.  I'm either getting him to lay down a better hand (9's or higher or 2 pair) or I want the call from him.

 
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Good Posting Judge said:
If the CO shoves, would you have folded?
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I thought of that afterward.  I don't know what I would have done.  It would not have been an instant call.  I would have taken a little time and see if I could get a read.

Overall, probably 60/40 that I call, but I could definitely see laying it down.  My general rule is that I don't like calling off for all my money unless I know I'm good.  I rather be the person making the bet. 

And, if I'm him sitting there with 34, I'm shoving all day long. 

 
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I gotta agree with Cav on making that preflop raise larger if you really want to raise. Personally, I would have just called with that many people preflop with a raise already out there. The initial raiser could have easily been sitting on a larger pocket pair and then popped it to $100 or so. Then what? 

I think you call and look for a set on the flop.

Glad it all worked out though.

We need more hand discussions like this in the FFA.

 
gianmarco said:
Little crazy hand I had while playing the other night. 

I'm playing $1/$3 NL, had bought in for $300, up early, back down after a bit, then sitting with about $400 when the following happens.  Of note, we got a couple new players at the table about 15-20 hands prior. I had been at the table about an hour at this point.

10 players, UTG guy is one of the new players and had already raised a few pots since joining. Didn't have to show much but just seemed like he had a pretty wide opening range. He makes it $10. There's 5 more callers and I'm the button and look down at 88. 

While I considered just calling, even with position, I'd rather not play this hand against so many others and figured this was a decent spot to 3-bet and maybe pick it up here and, at worst, thin it out. Over the previous hour, I hadn't seen any big preflop raises (nothing over $20) except one 3-bet between 2 players that was then folded. It's been a pretty tame game so far.

I make it $40 and try to take it here. Both blinds fold. UTG calls and has $137 remaining. UTG+2 calls and has $39 left and cutoff (guy to my right) calls. He's sitting on about $500 and seems like a decent player. 4 to the flop. 

Flop comes 5-6-7 rainbow. 

UTG moves all-in for $137 pretty quickly. UTG+1 calls for his last $39. Cutoff calls pretty quickly.

Action to me. What do you do here? What do you think people have?
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Honestly---somebody bet 3.3x the big blind--and 5 other callers called.  With a hand like 88, you ideally want to take the pot down pre-flop--or you bet to try to get head to head with a hand like aq or Ak.  If you don't do those things--you just call hoping that your pair of eights turns into a set or better.   I think I would have either raised to the amount that the shortest stack had that was live in the hand(UTG+2 seemed to have around $70-80 left at the time you made the raise to $40), or just slow played it and called.  With the amount of people that called a raise ahead of you--a $40 raise effectively becomes slightly more than a min raise when it comes to the other players calculating their pot odds.  Either way--I think it worked out for you--but I personally don't like how you got there.  

 
eoMMan said:
I gotta agree with Cav on making that preflop raise larger if you really want to raise. Personally, I would have just called with that many people preflop with a raise already out there. The initial raiser could have easily been sitting on a larger pocket pair and then popped it to $100 or so. Then what? 

I think you call and look for a set on the flop.

Glad it all worked out though.

We need more hand discussions like this in the FFA.
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In a normal, looser $1/3 game, I agree. I'm making it $50-60.  But this one was one of the tightest tables I've been at and expected that to get to 0-2 callers. 

Based on UTG short history, I wasn't too worried about a big hand. I was right there. 

Out of position, I'm just calling there, but just had a good feel that no one was terribly strong. And as I mentioned above, I'm pretty sure if A7hh folds UTG as he should, 88 maybe lays it down and 34n definitely let's it go. 

 
gianmarco said:
In a normal, looser $1/3 game, I agree. I'm making it $50-60.  But this one was one of the tightest tables I've been at and expected that to get to 0-2 callers. 

Based on UTG short history, I wasn't too worried about a big hand. I was right there. 

Out of position, I'm just calling there, but just had a good feel that no one was terribly strong. And as I mentioned above, I'm pretty sure if A7hh folds UTG as he should, 88 maybe lays it down and 34n definitely let's it go. 
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I'm not sure if the table is as tight as you think or make it out to be.  Look at the hands that called your re-raise--A7, 88 and 34.  Thats hardly "tight". 

 
jvdesigns2002 said:
I'm not sure if the table is as tight as you think or make it out to be.  Look at the hands that called your re-raise--A7, 88 and 34.  Thats hardly "tight". 
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I've played enough to know how to describe how a general table is.  Especially at this location.

There are times when virtually every hand is raised preflop and multiple players call regularly. 3 bets abound.

I had been at this table for over an hour. With 10 people at the table, most hands generally had 3-4 total callers pre-flop. That's tight for a $1/3 game. I had seen one 3-bet pre flop and the original raiser folded. I hadn't seen a single pre raise flop over $20 and most were between $10-$15. And most of the raises ended up with about 3 total hands playing.  Maybe 3-4 hands per rotation were raised. Pots were pretty small with the exception of a couple hands.

It was one of the tightest and least aggressive $1/$3 tables I've been at. The new player UTG was the exception as I mentioned as he had raised almost half of the hands since he had sat down. 

You just have to trust what I'm saying when I'm trying to paint a picture of the table identity.  I've been at tables where a $40 preflop raise is guaranteed to get at least 6 callers all ready to go. This was not one of them. Quite the opposite.

 
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gianmarco said:
Action to me. What do you do here? What do you think people have?
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Odds no one has 9-10s, trips or a higher pair after that much betting in a tame game seems pretty low to me.  What can you realistically beat?

137 into a ~$500 pot is ~25%.  Seems doubtful.

ETA:  objecting to "tame" after reading the showdown.  

 
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gianmarco said:
Finally, I looked at some odds calcs to see where I was (I had a general idea when I was making my decision, but I always like to look afterward in a hand like this)

Up against 2 pair -- ~50/50

Up against 55, 66, or 77 -- ~70/30 dog

Up against 10's or better -- ~60/40 dog

Up against 99 -- ~75/25 dog

Up against 89 -- ~85/15 dog and that's to chop (< 2% chance of winning outright)

Up against 34 -- ~70/30 dog

I listed those above in the order that I thought he might be holding.  I'm not including lesser holdings that he could have that I'm smashing (33, 44, 78, 45, A7, 9-10).

Based on how the hand played, I thought there was no chance he's holding AA or KK.  I also wasn't expecting 34 at all (honestly didn't even consider that in my decision making).  And I thought 89 was pretty unlikely with my 88. 

I had him on 2 pair or possible set.  Up against 2 pair, I thought the odds had me slightly behind.  Up against a set, I thought it was more like 60/40, but either way, both would be ok. 

I think he's folding anything except 34, 89, a set, and likely AA and KK to a reraise all-in.  Two pair he MIGHT call.  Even 10's or J's he likely lays it down to a reraise to his call.  And since I figured the only thing he might have out of that that he's not folding is a set or 2 pair, I thought the raise was a good play.  I'm either getting him to lay down a better hand (9's or higher or 2 pair) or I want the call from him.
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Either call pre or make it ~$90.  $40 is way too small.  You end up in too many spots like this one.  

As played the flop is a fold not for your immediate price, which is prolly close to what you need to call, but for the guy covering you who snap overcalled when he could have shoved and kept you out.  He just has it so often and you'll have to fold when he bets turn and you whiffed.

gianmarco said:
In a normal, looser $1/3 game, I agree. I'm making it $50-60.  But this one was one of the tightest tables I've been at and expected that to get to 0-2 callers. 

Based on UTG short history, I wasn't too worried about a big hand. I was right there. 

Out of position, I'm just calling there, but just had a good feel that no one was terribly strong. And as I mentioned above, I'm pretty sure if A7hh folds UTG as he should, 88 maybe lays it down and 34n definitely let's it go. 
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$50-$60 is also too small.  Hand plays out the same at that size.  

 
gianmarco said:
Little crazy hand I had while playing the other night. 

I'm playing $1/$3 NL, had bought in for $300, up early, back down after a bit, then sitting with about $400 when the following happens.  Of note, we got a couple new players at the table about 15-20 hands prior. I had been at the table about an hour at this point.

10 players, UTG guy is one of the new players and had already raised a few pots since joining. Didn't have to show much but just seemed like he had a pretty wide opening range. He makes it $10. There's 5 more callers and I'm the button and look down at 88. 

While I considered just calling, even with position, I'd rather not play this hand against so many others and figured this was a decent spot to 3-bet and maybe pick it up here and, at worst, thin it out. Over the previous hour, I hadn't seen any big preflop raises (nothing over $20) except one 3-bet between 2 players that was then folded. It's been a pretty tame game so far.

I make it $40 and try to take it here. Both blinds fold. UTG calls and has $137 remaining. UTG+2 calls and has $39 left and cutoff (guy to my right) calls. He's sitting on about $500 and seems like a decent player. 4 to the flop. 

Flop comes 5-6-7 rainbow. 

UTG moves all-in for $137 pretty quickly. UTG+1 calls for his last $39. Cutoff calls pretty quickly.

Action to me. What do you do here? What do you think people have?
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Agree with the guy above me. While I have to take your word for it that $40 plays as a bigger raise than it really is at this table, my answer is I have no clue what they have because of the raise size. One of the main reasons you’d make it a pot sized raise is so you can be reasonably  sure when the trash board comes you’re not against 5-6 3-4 etc here. 

 
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Good Posting Judge said:
Gonna play 100 HU PLO8 SNG's and see what's what. Starting tonight.
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any decent sites for California players? Played live Saturday and would prefer to play at home instead of a ####ty bar.

 
Playing HORSE at Venetian Saturday morning.  HORSE at WSOP Sunday at 3pm, about 75 steps from the Main Final 9 table. The railbirds were really annoying last year. LOL

 
Online poker:  is there any app/site worth it these days?  I know the legal landscape has changed some but still isn’t open.  Any get arounds thru VPN or similar?  

 
Keep an eye on Zhen Cai at the Main event final table.  I play PLO with him from time to time and I swear the guy is in the top three players I’ve ever sat with.  I legit don’t ever recall him having a losing night.  

Hes also a real nice guy.

 
That one guy said:
Online poker:  is there any app/site worth it these days?  I know the legal landscape has changed some but still isn’t open.  Any get arounds thru VPN or similar?  
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I played Global Poker for a bit. No issues. Money in and out was easy. No need to "get around" anything. Haven't played in a year or so though. If you really want info on various sites, the forums at 2+2 are pretty much a gold mine. In fact, they have designated threads for the various sites.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/

 
DallasDMac said:
I played Global Poker for a bit. No issues. Money in and out was easy. No need to "get around" anything. Haven't played in a year or so though. If you really want info on various sites, the forums at 2+2 are pretty much a gold mine. In fact, they have designated threads for the various sites.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/
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I got onto Bovada about two years ago and one of my CC's works on it. I use it mainly to train for WSOP and other tourneys. Won an 80 person OM8 last night.

 
WSOP HORSE even starts soon.  Didn't run well yesterday at Venetian, but did win an 80-person Om8 online last night.  Nice to run well again. Haven't since my cashes at the beginning of the series. Appreciate all well wishes this summer!

 
Getzlaf15 said:
WSOP HORSE even starts soon.  Didn't run well yesterday at Venetian, but did win an 80-person Om8 online last night.  Nice to run well again. Haven't since my cashes at the beginning of the series. Appreciate all well wishes this summer!
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After a slow start, have 50k chips after level 8.  

 
Getzlaf15 said:
bagged 47700 for Day 2.   Was card dead since my last post for 2 hours and won a 20K pot vs Clements and Negreanu in Stud hi lo , when i hit flush on 6th and they both bricked their low draws.
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how is it playing with Negreanu ? from all the videos I see it seems he never stops talking

 
(WSOP CONTROVERSY) 11 Left WSOP Main Event 2019

We had a major controversy break out with 11 left in the 2019 World Series of Poker Main Event between Dario Sammartino, Nick Marchington, and the WSOP floor staff including Jack Effel. Dario raised pre-flop and Nick shoved all in for 22 million chips. The dealer counted it as 17 million and Dario called without realizing it was 22. Dario complained for 8-10 minutes before Jack Effel came over and stole the show. I talk more about all the incidents that took place here and include comments made by other professional players about the incident.

 
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Big Idea And A Brand New Footballguys Tool - The Assistant Coach
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Mr.Pack
Mr.Pack

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