**FFA POKER** (2 Viewers)

[Zegras11]

how is it playing with Negreanu ? from all the videos I see it seems he never stops talking

When he came to our table, he was in the middle of getting a 99 minute massage.   When he was done, he certainly chatted it up.  

On the last five hands of the night, we started talking hockey. I asked him about his reaction to the 5 minute major vs the Sharks.  Then we talked about my team, the Ducks. And then we talked about the recent NHL draft.    @Aaron Rudnicki.    Good times.  

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Did you ask him if more rake is actually better?

 

[Zegras11]

Did you ask him if more rake is actually better?

Lol. 

 

[Zegras11]

Pretty sweet first two hours today.   47700 to 120k.  

 

[gianmarco]

Just finished playing and had a good run but one of the last hands is still bugging me.

It's a $2/$5 NL table and I bought in for $500. I'm running pretty good and sitting on $2400 a little over 2 hours in and about to call it a night. I like to end on the button so I'm waiting for the last orbit to get me there.

I'm the BB and there's an early raise to $20 with 4 other callers when it gets to me (last to act). I look down at A8cc. I normally hate Ace rag but this is a good spot with a suited Ace with 6 players and no further action until the flop.

Flop comes A83 rainbow. Beautiful.

Now, I've been running good and showing down good hands. Good rep on the table at this point. I check to start. Check from the raiser, next guy bets $50, one call, then folds to me. 

I make it $200. Fold from preflop raiser.  Initial bettor flat calls and the other caller folds. So we are heads up. Now this guy I'm HU with has a decent stack (probably ~$1000-1200). He hasn't played many hands and we haven't been involved at all.

Turn comes and it's a K. This worries me a little because AK is definitely a possibility. I slow down and bet $100. He just calls. AK feels less likely.

River is a 7. Something doesn't feel right. I check to him and he bets $200. 

I just stop and I'm convinced he's holding a set of 3's at this point. Possibly AK, but didn't make as much sense. But I'm also looking at $700 in the pot and $200 to call. 

After about a minute and about ready to fold, I call. Sure enough he turns over 33.

The entire table was convinced I need to call there. But I just knew I was beat there even though the only reasonable hands that beat me there are 33 or AK. 

Just aggravated because I had played well all night, still ended up winning a decent amount (almost $1500 profit), but that hand is just bugging me. 

Just venting and open to any feedback on it.

 

[cheese]

Have to call post river. 

In hindsight your turn play probably helped you, but I don’t like it. You managed to show weakness and put more money in the pot at the same time. If you’re going to drop from $200 to $100 you might as well check. I think a good percentage of the time, you get raised to $400 on the $100 bet and then what?  You’d be calling off another $300 and arguably committing yourself to even more on the river.

Overall though, this isn’t a hand to worry about. You’re thinking about it because it was last minute and highish dollars. You were setup from the start and always going to lose a decent chunk. Not something to overanalyze imo. 

 

[munga30]

I think your bet sizing and strat could be better but you lost the minimum.  So, slap it high?  Generally, when you put in aggressive action on *this board*, your range should be polarized, with either really strong hands or airbluffs. using a large sizing in this situation is generally best because a small sizing doesn't get many extra value calls.  There are no draws, lots of second pair and middle pair can't continue, etc.  Same goes for the guy with 33.  he should be trying to stack you but is so afraid of what you'll fold that he misses value.  The strategy for *this board* is to have the right ammt of bluffs and play them with the same large size as your value range.  The bottom of your value range will be quite high because people do fold a lot, so you will kc with some fairly strong hands, like A9, TT/JJ that can't win it or get hu pre, etc.  

But please quit after playing your utg hand.  Quitting on the button has to be one of the silliest things I see people do with regularity.  you're losing money in the blinds.  if you pay them, play the hands in the positions from which you're profitable.  That should be all of them, including UTG, because if you weren't then you'd sit those out every time and profit.  I'm only 3/4 serious, you should quit when you have a reason to but it looks like it's just your habit and not a specific reason this time.  

 

[gianmarco]

Have to call post river. 

In hindsight your turn play probably helped you, but I don’t like it. You managed to show weakness and put more money in the pot at the same time. If you’re going to drop from $200 to $100 you might as well check. I think a good percentage of the time, you get raised to $400 on the $100 bet and then what?  You’d be calling off another $300 and arguably committing yourself to even more on the river.

Overall though, this isn’t a hand to worry about. You’re thinking about it because it was last minute and highish dollars. You were setup from the start and always going to lose a decent chunk. Not something to overanalyze imo. 

Yeah, I thought about it this morning. Even if I fold the river, I'm dropping $300 on the hand anyway.

If I got reraised on the turn, I'm letting it go. Too many times it's AK or 33 there. He played it well. I'm folding to a larger river bet too.

I did consider checking the turn. But if he comes out for $200, then what? I have no idea if he's bluffing from sensed weakness. So I figured I'd back it off, look like I want a call and see what happens. Big raise and I fold. The flat call caught my attention and what tipped me off to a likely set.

But yeah, I was destined to lose money on this hand no matter what.

 

[eoMMan]

Hard to avoid set miners.  I don't think you could put the guy on AK there.  He would have popped it preflop, no? 

 

[Softballguy]

Well played on the flop. Down betting is all the rage these days, and standard strategy on a dry board is to put in a small bet, but I'm not sure what a 1/5ish pot sized bet does for you on the turn. I wouldn't be worried about AK... you block that and he didn't raise pf. His range has a lot of Ax in it, which is good for you, and some pocket pairs. By betting so small (and checking the river) you are inviting bluffs, which makes the river call pretty easy. I wouldn't be worried about that call... pretty standard as played. 

 

[gianmarco]

So what do you guys bet on the turn?

 

[Softballguy]

So what do you guys bet on the turn?

2/3 pot

Maybe I do a little pot control given how deep you both are, but still probably 2/3 pot.

 

[cheese]

So what do you guys bet on the turn?

$250 or check from me but I might be swayed by assuming other people play like me.

For better or worse, if I was in the shoes of the other guy off that action pre and flop, I'm raising the $100 turn bet to $400 with any 2 cards almost every time. 

 

[gianmarco]

$250 or check from me but I might be swayed by assuming other people play like me.

For better or worse, if I was in the shoes of the other guy off that action pre and flop, I'm raising the $100 turn bet to $400 with any 2 cards almost every time. 

Right.

And I think that's why I got really concerned when he just flat called. Only a big hand is doing that. There were no draws on the board. Maybe AQ or AJ flats there too.

I said above that I'm folding to a reraise on the turn but thinking on it, I'm probably 3 bet shoving on a big reraise there. A set isn't doing that on such a dry board because they want me to stay in the hand. I didn't think through it when I wrote that above. 

I don't see myself ever checking that turn, though. With a decent sized pot and out of position, a check invites too much action that makes it hard to determine if it's a real hand or a bluff. 

It's funny because my bet actually gave me all the information I needed about as cheaply as possible and I could have potentially gotten away from that hand only losing $300. Put another way, if I check and he bets $100 on the turn and then bets $200 on the river after another check, I have no idea what he's holding.

It is good getting other's perspectives, though. Thanks, guys.

 

[gianmarco]

Quit on the button? Dude. 

Play the button and quit.  It's my favorite position on the table. 

 

[gianmarco]

Just awful 

Alright, go ahead.......

Why is that?

 

[Softballguy]

Alright, go ahead.......

Why is that?

The idea is that you're giving up free cards by not leaving one before the big blind. You play the button because it's your favorite, but then you choose not to play for free in the cutoff, which I'm assuming is your second favorite.  

 

[gianmarco]

The idea is that you're giving up free cards by not leaving one before the big blind. You play the button because it's your favorite, but then you choose not to play for free in the cutoff, which I'm assuming is your second favorite.  

I get that.  At the same time, I don't think it's necessarily dumb to leave at any point in particular.  It's not as if the blinds are some huge amount. 

As the night goes on and I get a feel for the table, I like and tend to play more hands.  So for me, paying the blinds and then having the button, I'm almost always playing those 3 hands.  It's part of the enjoyment for me.

Yes, the cutoff is great and if I didn't get to play the blinds or the button because of raises and crap cards, then I'll stick around for the CO.  But then as it keeps going around and position gets worst, I have no interest to play the rest of the "free cards". 

Also, because of position, I almost never fold the button unless the cards are really poor and there's a substantial raise.  I typically have stronger post-flop play, especially in position, and I seem to do well with that approach. 

So for all those reasons, I typically play the button and then call it a night.  I see the flipside to it but never thought of it as being some kind of egregious fault.

For example, I NEVER straddle.  It's a common thing, especially for certain players that do it every time they can, and I've never understood the allure and I think overall is a losing strategy.

 

[eoMMan]

I get that.  At the same time, I don't think it's necessarily dumb to leave at any point in particular.  It's not as if the blinds are some huge amount. 

As the night goes on and I get a feel for the table, I like and tend to play more hands.  So for me, paying the blinds and then having the button, I'm almost always playing those 3 hands.  It's part of the enjoyment for me.

Yes, the cutoff is great and if I didn't get to play the blinds or the button because of raises and crap cards, then I'll stick around for the CO.  But then as it keeps going around and position gets worst, I have no interest to play the rest of the "free cards". 

Also, because of position, I almost never fold the button unless the cards are really poor and there's a substantial raise.  I typically have stronger post-flop play, especially in position, and I seem to do well with that approach. 

So for all those reasons, I typically play the button and then call it a night.  I see the flipside to it but never thought of it as being some kind of egregious fault.

For example, I NEVER straddle.  It's a common thing, especially for certain players that do it every time they can, and I've never understood the allure and I think overall is a losing strategy.

Position is super important, but don't justify playing marginal cards and getting in hands you shouldn't be in simply because you are in the dealer position.  

"Almost never fold" means you are playing a buttload of hands you shouldn't be.

 

[Softballguy]

I get that.  At the same time, I don't think it's necessarily dumb to leave at any point in particular.  It's not as if the blinds are some huge amount. 

As the night goes on and I get a feel for the table, I like and tend to play more hands.  So for me, paying the blinds and then having the button, I'm almost always playing those 3 hands.  It's part of the enjoyment for me.

Yes, the cutoff is great and if I didn't get to play the blinds or the button because of raises and crap cards, then I'll stick around for the CO.  But then as it keeps going around and position gets worst, I have no interest to play the rest of the "free cards". 

Also, because of position, I almost never fold the button unless the cards are really poor and there's a substantial raise.  I typically have stronger post-flop play, especially in position, and I seem to do well with that approach. 

So for all those reasons, I typically play the button and then call it a night.  I see the flipside to it but never thought of it as being some kind of egregious fault.

For example, I NEVER straddle.  It's a common thing, especially for certain players that do it every time they can, and I've never understood the allure and I think overall is a losing strategy.

I was just explaining where he was coming from. I don't think it's egregious either, but that's the logic behind it.

 

[Softballguy]

Position is super important, but don't justify playing marginal cards and getting in hands you shouldn't be in simply because you are in the dealer position.  

"Almost never fold" means you are playing a buttload of hands you shouldn't be.

Right. You don't want to overstate how valuable the button is, but the range you should play needs to be well constructed and able to be adapted based on things like the play of your opponents. 

Having said that, live poker players do many things poorly. Having a correct button strategy is often one of them. (Edited to add... live players aren't loose enough on the button in a limped pot... which brings up another common live player bad strategy... they limp WAY too much. Raise first in nearly every time... limping is almost always horrible)

 

[eoMMan]

And regarding straddling on the button, I kinda like it.  I mean, if you are one of the bigger stacks at the table, where's the downside?  Are you concerned with maybe people NOT raising preflop now when they would normally raise so your read is off? 

 

[gianmarco]

Right. You don't want to overstate how valuable the button is, but the range you should play needs to be well constructed and able to be adapted based on things like the play of your opponents. 

Having said that, live poker players do many things poorly. Having a correct button strategy is often one of them. (Edited to add... live players aren't loose enough on the button in a limped pot... which brings up another common live player bad strategy... they limp WAY too much. Raise first in nearly every time... limping is almost always horrible)

Depending on the table and how things are going, I don't even care what 2 cards I have when I'm on the button.  And what's funny is it's not often that players will pick up on this.  If it's a bunch of limpers, I'm raising my button almost every time regardless of what I have.  If it's a middle position raise, I strongly consider 3 betting with any kind of playable hand.  I'm careful if it's an early position raiser or a strong player, but I'm often playing position far more than I'm playing my actual cards, especially post flop.  Most of my bluffs come from that spot and if I've got a good table and going well, I keep at it until it no longer works. 

I would venture to guess the button is my most profitable position for that reason. 

 

[gianmarco]

And regarding straddling on the button, I kinda like it.  I mean, if you are one of the bigger stacks at the table, where's the downside?  Are you concerned with maybe people NOT raising preflop now when they would normally raise so your read is off? 

It's just another blind bet.  And a larger one at that.  My concern is looking down at garbage and having to fold to a pre-flop raise and throwing away 2-3 BB for no reason.  Done consistently, I just don't see it as a winning play.  I'd rather wait and see what happens and raise (potentially larger) when it's my turn and use my position. 

 

[gianmarco]

And regarding straddling on the button, I kinda like it.  I mean, if you are one of the bigger stacks at the table, where's the downside?  Are you concerned with maybe people NOT raising preflop now when they would normally raise so your read is off? 

Here you go

The Button Straddle

Hopefully you are now convinced that straddling UTG is a bad play. "But" (you say), "straddling on the button is different... I have position then. And since position is the key to winning, it’s good for me to play the button at twice the normal stakes."

The problem with this argument is that straddling only provides improved position preflop, not postflop. Most of the value of position is realized postflop, when the pots get bigger and decisions get tougher. If this were not the case, the big blind would be a profitable position since Mr. Big Blind gets to act last preflop. This argument is even less useful for the button straddle, since it only improves our preflop position slightly, and not at all when the pot is raised ahead of us.

Just as it doesn’t matter when we pay the blinds tax (as discussed in my previous article), it also doesn’t matter when we pay the straddle tax. It costs us about 1.2 BB every time we straddle, from whatever position we post it. Once we post it, we can consider that tax to be dead money, available to anyone.

There are many other arguments made to rationalize straddling, which we don’t have space to discuss here. A complete discussion can be found in Chapter 7 of Donkey Poker Volume 1: Preflop.

So the general conclusion is clear... never straddle!

 

[IC FBGCav]

SIL tries to steal from me. 

 We play in a game on Saturday that has a high hand bonus every hour for 5 hours.  All the first 4 high hands are 100, the 5th carrys over and is bigger.  This game has 2 tables and me and sil play at different tables.  I won the first.  

 

[IC FBGCav]

I won the last too.  I knew it was going to be between 300 and 400 because the guy that run the game was at my table and told us the carry over.  

 Me and SIL were splitting high hand 50/50 and last one 60/40.  

So after the last high hand many people leave and there is a dealers choice game.  At this time many people settle up and I tell the person that runs the game I will be outside until things settle down to collect and maybe keep playing.

 

[IC FBGCav]

SIL collects the high hand while I am outside and then comes out and gives me 150 and says this was my cut.  I was like wtf?  How much was it?  He says 250.  

We got cheated, I said and went inside and multiple players said the high hand was 350 and SIL counted out on the table.  

I made him add 200 to my 150 and chopped it right but that is really crappy.  

Later in the night he argued I only lent him 400 when it was 600.  Table again backed me.  

Playing poker with him is over, he makes bank and lives in a 500k house.

Been nothing but good to this guy and my daughter is nothing like this.  It sucks, but not fun running with people u can't trust.

Hell, I made him 190 doing nothing.

I took my high hand and tipped dealers 30 so we were almost even.  Sure he didn't tip crap.

1st world problems

How do I deal with him now?  I didn't address it because by the time we left he was hammered.  And haven't talked since.

 

[Otis]

Wat 

 

[IC FBGCav]

Wat 

10k heads up on stars one game, let's go!

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Just finished playing and had a good run but one of the last hands is still bugging me.

It's a $2/$5 NL table and I bought in for $500. I'm running pretty good and sitting on $2400 a little over 2 hours in and about to call it a night. I like to end on the button so I'm waiting for the last orbit to get me there.

I'm the BB and there's an early raise to $20 with 4 other callers when it gets to me (last to act). I look down at A8cc. I normally hate Ace rag but this is a good spot with a suited Ace with 6 players and no further action until the flop.

Flop comes A83 rainbow. Beautiful.

Now, I've been running good and showing down good hands. Good rep on the table at this point. I check to start. Check from the raiser, next guy bets $50, one call, then folds to me. 

I make it $200. Fold from preflop raiser.  Initial bettor flat calls and the other caller folds. So we are heads up. Now this guy I'm HU with has a decent stack (probably ~$1000-1200). He hasn't played many hands and we haven't been involved at all.

Turn comes and it's a K. This worries me a little because AK is definitely a possibility. I slow down and bet $100. He just calls. AK feels less likely.

River is a 7. Something doesn't feel right. I check to him and he bets $200. 

I just stop and I'm convinced he's holding a set of 3's at this point. Possibly AK, but didn't make as much sense. But I'm also looking at $700 in the pot and $200 to call. 

After about a minute and about ready to fold, I call. Sure enough he turns over 33.

The entire table was convinced I need to call there. But I just knew I was beat there even though the only reasonable hands that beat me there are 33 or AK. 

Just aggravated because I had played well all night, still ended up winning a decent amount (almost $1500 profit), but that hand is just bugging me. 

Just venting and open to any feedback on it.

I dunno---I think that's just one of those hands where the game reminds you that you aren't always meant to win each hand. I do think that you took a risk getting in the hand with that many callers of a raise pre-blind.  The problem with playing a marginal hand like Ace-Medium is that even when you hit the flop big---there is still no guarantee that you are unbeatable.  With that said--once you were in--and once the flop hit you that big--I honestly don't see how you could have gotten away losing much less. I'm sure there are lots of people that could have said that you maybe should have done things differently--but I assure you that there a lot more people that would have went all in and lost a lot of their stack if they hit that flop like you did.  

 

[CGRdrJoe]

Wat 

Ah, I think son in law. I thought sister in law until I read it a second time. Yeah, I read it twice but only because I’m drunk 

 

[phatdawg]

SIL collects the high hand while I am outside and then comes out and gives me 150 and says this was my cut.  I was like wtf?  How much was it?  He says 250.  

We got cheated, I said and went inside and multiple players said the high hand was 350 and SIL counted out on the table.  

I made him add 200 to my 150 and chopped it right but that is really crappy.  

Later in the night he argued I only lent him 400 when it was 600.  Table again backed me.  

Playing poker with him is over, he makes bank and lives in a 500k house.

Been nothing but good to this guy and my daughter is nothing like this.  It sucks, but not fun running with people u can't trust.

Hell, I made him 190 doing nothing.

I took my high hand and tipped dealers 30 so we were almost even.  Sure he didn't tip crap.

1st world problems

How do I deal with him now?  I didn't address it because by the time we left he was hammered.  And haven't talked since.

No real advice, but it sucks that it seems your daughter is married to a d-bag.

 

[Softballguy]

I dunno---I think that's just one of those hands where the game reminds you that you aren't always meant to win each hand. I do think that you took a risk getting in the hand with that many callers of a raise pre-blind.  The problem with playing a marginal hand like Ace-Medium is that even when you hit the flop big---there is still no guarantee that you are unbeatable.  With that said--once you were in--and once the flop hit you that big--I honestly don't see how you could have gotten away losing much less. I'm sure there are lots of people that could have said that you maybe should have done things differently--but I assure you that there a lot more people that would have went all in and lost a lot of their stack if they hit that flop like you did.  

Not sure I agree with this analysis. First off, Ace X suited when closing the action getting 8:1 is an instacall. This isn't Ax off... you have great implied odds to continue, and closing the action makes it a standard. Probably couldn't have gotten away losing less in this specific situation, but we really need to avoid being results oriented. It's why if you participate in 2+2 discussions, or in any other type of group discussion, people often wait to post the results (if they do at all). And with an effective stack of 240BB, we don't have an all in hand. We should be looking to pot control given this specific villain (tight, 240BB stack). 

 

[gianmarco]

Not sure I agree with this analysis. First off, Ace X suited when closing the action getting 8:1 is an instacall. This isn't Ax off... you have great implied odds to continue, and closing the action makes it a standard. Probably couldn't have gotten away losing less in this specific situation, but we really need to avoid being results oriented. It's why if you participate in 2+2 discussions, or in any other type of group discussion, people often wait to post the results (if they do at all). And with an effective stack of 240BB, we don't have an all in hand. We should be looking to pot control given this specific villain (tight, 240BB stack). 

Agree with every bit of this. 

 

[Don't Noonan]

Not sure I agree with this analysis. First off, Ace X suited when closing the action getting 8:1 is an instacall. This isn't Ax off... you have great implied odds to continue, and closing the action makes it a standard. Probably couldn't have gotten away losing less in this specific situation, but we really need to avoid being results oriented. It's why if you participate in 2+2 discussions, or in any other type of group discussion, people often wait to post the results (if they do at all). And with an effective stack of 240BB, we don't have an all in hand. We should be looking to pot control given this specific villain (tight, 240BB stack). 

Agreed.  I call this pre flop every time with a suited ace.  I think he played it very well.  I would have assumed I was still ahead on the turn.  With no raise on the turn, checking is fine on the river to catch any bluffs and I would have called instantly to the $200 bet on the river.  

 

[kutta]

SIL collects the high hand while I am outside and then comes out and gives me 150 and says this was my cut.  I was like wtf?  How much was it?  He says 250.  

We got cheated, I said and went inside and multiple players said the high hand was 350 and SIL counted out on the table.  

I made him add 200 to my 150 and chopped it right but that is really crappy.  

Later in the night he argued I only lent him 400 when it was 600.  Table again backed me.  

Playing poker with him is over, he makes bank and lives in a 500k house.

Been nothing but good to this guy and my daughter is nothing like this.  It sucks, but not fun running with people u can't trust.

Hell, I made him 190 doing nothing.

I took my high hand and tipped dealers 30 so we were almost even.  Sure he didn't tip crap.

1st world problems

How do I deal with him now?  I didn't address it because by the time we left he was hammered.  And haven't talked since.

How is this even possible? Dang. I wouldn’t do this to someone I hated. How does your SIL do that?

Maybe you should have a heart to heart with the dude and say - what the hell man? 

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Not sure I agree with this analysis. First off, Ace X suited when closing the action getting 8:1 is an instacall. This isn't Ax off... you have great implied odds to continue, and closing the action makes it a standard. Probably couldn't have gotten away losing less in this specific situation, but we really need to avoid being results oriented. It's why if you participate in 2+2 discussions, or in any other type of group discussion, people often wait to post the results (if they do at all). And with an effective stack of 240BB, we don't have an all in hand. We should be looking to pot control given this specific villain (tight, 240BB stack). 

I'd probably make the call too--but when you make a call at 8 to 1 odds with A medium suited (with that many people in the hand)--the implied odds are generally great due to the possibility of hitting a flush.   If you hit the flop decently well --but the board doesn't give you a great possiblity of a flush-- that's where playing a hand like that puts you at risk.  I have no problem with calling pre-flop--and I am in full agreement about your point about the implied odds---but playing a hand like ace medium (even suited) against several other players also carries implied risk.  If you hit the flush--you can win a lot--if you hit the flop but don't hit the flush--you can also lose a lot.   That's exactly what happened here.   With that said--I think he did a very solid job minimizing what could have easily been a lot larger loss.  

 

[Softballguy]

I'd probably make the call too--but when you make a call at 8 to 1 odds with A medium suited (with that many people in the hand)--the implied odds are generally great due to the possibility of hitting a flush.   If you hit the flop decently well --but the board doesn't give you a great possiblity of a flush-- that's where playing a hand like that puts you at risk.  I have no problem with calling pre-flop--and I am in full agreement about your point about the implied odds---but playing a hand like ace medium (even suited) against several other players also carries implied risk.  If you hit the flush--you can win a lot--if you hit the flop but don't hit the flush--you can also lose a lot.   That's exactly what happened here.   With that said--I think he did a very solid job minimizing what could have easily been a lot larger loss.  

I'm not sure I understand what you mean about risk. Any hand can by "risky" if you make mistakes or succumb to bad luck. Playing poker involves calculating equity, ranges... I suppose "risk"... lots of things on every hand. The reason hands like Axs are so popular as bluff hands (meaning you play them very similar to premiums preflop, unless you have half the table in for a small raise like gianmarco had) is that they realize their equity very well, and when they miss it's easy to get away.  They also have the benefit of removal with the A. I'd argue that ace rag is less "risky" than other stronger hands that can be put in tougher spots. 

Still, flopping top two vs a set can happen with any non-paired hand. He could have had AKs, flopped top two, and been in just as much trouble. The fact that it is A8 is kind of irrelevant. 

 

[jvdesigns2002]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean about risk. Any hand can by "risky" if you make mistakes or succumb to bad luck. Playing poker involves calculating equity, ranges... I suppose "risk"... lots of things on every hand. The reason hands like Axs are so popular as bluff hands (meaning you play them very similar to premiums preflop, unless you have half the table in for a small raise like gianmarco had) is that they realize their equity very well, and when they miss it's easy to get away.  They also have the benefit of removal with the A. I'd argue that ace rag is less "risky" than other stronger hands that can be put in tougher spots. 

Still, flopping top two vs a set can happen with any non-paired hand. He could have had AKs, flopped top two, and been in just as much trouble. The fact that it is A8 is kind of irrelevant. 

What I mean by it is this--you have five people that called a 4x raise before the flop comes down.   You have ace 8 suited--and the flop hits ace-8-3 rainbow with no real chance at a flush.   At this point--even with a big bet--you're not going to get anybody with A-J, A-Q, A-K to fold, you could be going against pocket 8's or pocket 3's as well.  There are a range of hands that will wait around to see more cards and there is a moderate possiblity that your A-8 will not hold up.   It's a dangerous place to be.  It's a hand thats generally too good to fold but it's a hand that is vulnerable to getting beat if you remove the possiblity of a flush.  What I mean by implied risk is this--you can't just look at the odds of winning--you also have to take into account the amount of possible loss.   Not all losing hands are equal.  Playing a marginal hand that still puts you at major risk of losing even if you hit the flop decently well is risky.   Once that flop hit him decently well---the implied risk of losing a lot--was really strong.   If you play a hand like A-Q and hit it decently well--most likely you are far more likely to win---or you are far more likely to sniff out that you are going up against a monster hand and might be able to get out more cheaply.     Playing a hand like ace-medium makes it far tougher to know exactly where you stand.  Like I said--I think he played it well and just got unlucky---but in general--I think playing Ace Medium (even suited) with that many callers with a decent pre-flop raise is risky.   

 

[Softballguy]

What I mean by it is this--you have five people that called a 4x raise before the flop comes down.   You have ace 8 suited--and the flop hits ace-8-3 rainbow with no real chance at a flush.   At this point--even with a big bet--you're not going to get anybody with A-J, A-Q, A-K to fold, you could be going against pocket 8's or pocket 3's as well.  There are a range of hands that will wait around to see more cards and there is a moderate possiblity that your A-8 will not hold up.   It's a dangerous place to be.  It's a hand thats generally too good to fold but it's a hand that is vulnerable to getting beat if you remove the possiblity of a flush.  What I mean by implied risk is this--you can't just look at the odds of winning--you also have to take into account the amount of possible loss.   Not all losing hands are equal.  Playing a marginal hand that still puts you at major risk of losing even if you hit the flop decently well is risky.   Once that flop hit him decently well---the implied risk of losing a lot--was really strong.   If you play a hand like A-Q and hit it decently well--most likely you are far more likely to win---or you are far more likely to sniff out that you are going up against a monster hand and might be able to get out more cheaply.     Playing a hand like ace-medium makes it far tougher to know exactly where you stand.  Like I said--I think he played it well and just got unlucky---but in general--I think playing Ace Medium (even suited) with that many callers with a decent pre-flop raise is risky.   

Your logic isn't holding up imo... or maybe I'm just not understanding you. Any top two is susceptible to getting beat, and this example is nothing unique. It doesn't seem to be "dangerous" in any special way.  

What you're calling implied risk is just the determination of how you want to continue with the hand. Do you think you have a hand you can get three streets of value out of? Two streets? Should you pot control? Do you want a merged or polarized range? How deep is the effective stack and how does that affect how you want to play the hand? How many opponents are you facing? What is your range based on play during the previous streets? What about your opponent's? What cards do you block, what are the combos of potential holdings of villain? 

These are all things to consider. But saying "If I flop the nuts I'm gold, but if not I'm in a dangerous place" is really not the way you should be thinking about poker. You can't be afraid of monsters under the bed. If I flop top two I'm betting for value. If we're deepish stacked I'll be prepared to slow down, but I'm generally pretty happy with that flop. I'm also super +EV when that happens. 

You seem hung-up on Ace 8 being a problem. You mentioned AQ. Let's say gianmarco had AQ and decided to keep his BB range strong by just calling pre. Flop comes AQ3 rainbow. How is he in any less trouble in your scenario? 

 

[gianmarco]

Your logic isn't holding up imo... or maybe I'm just not understanding you. Any top two is susceptible to getting beat, and this example is nothing unique. It doesn't seem to be "dangerous" in any special way.  

What you're calling implied risk is just the determination of how you want to continue with the hand. Do you think you have a hand you can get three streets of value out of? Two streets? Should you pot control? Do you want a merged or polarized range? How deep is the effective stack and how does that affect how you want to play the hand? How many opponents are you facing? What is your range based on play during the previous streets? What about your opponent's? What cards do you block, what are the combos of potential holdings of villain? 

These are all things to consider. But saying "If I flop the nuts I'm gold, but if not I'm in a dangerous place" is really not the way you should be thinking about poker. You can't be afraid of monsters under the bed. If I flop top two I'm betting for value. If we're deepish stacked I'll be prepared to slow down, but I'm generally pretty happy with that flop. I'm also super +EV when that happens. 

You seem hung-up on Ace 8 being a problem. You mentioned AQ. Let's say gianmarco had AQ and decided to keep his BB range strong by just calling pre. Flop comes AQ3 rainbow. How is he in any less trouble in your scenario? 

Yeah, the A8 isn't the problem.  Overplaying 2 pair as if it's the nuts against a deep stack is the bigger "risk". 

FWIW, if the guy is sitting with $600 in front of him, I'm tossing him $600 by the time the hand is over.  Flop play is the same and I'm definitely 2/3rd pot or open shoving on the turn.  His big stack and the possibility of overplaying my hand made me slow down.  In general, if I'm up against someone that's really deep when I am as well, I opt to keep the pots small even with really good hands like this.  The only way I'm playing that hand any faster is if I'm the one with a set of 3's or I'm otherwise holding the nuts on a board. 

 

[IC FBGCav]

How is this even possible? Dang. I wouldn’t do this to someone I hated. How does your SIL do that?

Maybe you should have a heart to heart with the dude and say - what the hell man? 

Haven't seem him since but I will definitely address it.

 

[IC FBGCav]

Got an interesting on for you guys.  So wasn't going to play Friday night but got buzzed and decided I wanted to play.  Wife was staying with MIL.  Around 8pm I texted the 2 people I know that run games on Friday and decide I am going to the first one that responded game.   I asked them if they were full. 

So John responded first.  I said I am coming.  Confirmed my uber there took about an hour to get there.   Now, I don't keep many poker contacts names in my phone.  You can easily tell who is who sober.   During my uber ride got a text asking how long til I get there.  I responded whatever the uber said I was out and made a contact for John.  

So about 30 minutes later I get a text from "John" asking how long, I was in the subdivision and texted almost there.  Went and played, ubered home.  

So on my way to a game Sunday at 1pm, John texted me.

I will just copy a paste the text.

 

[IC FBGCav]

Sorry about Friday, apparently, Deaf Jeff was a suspected drug dealer, glad you showed up late, bunch of drama,

 NFL Football and Sunday Poker(with a full bar Sunday ticket and 8 TVs). Watch any and every game.... Ladies and Gentlemen we have a 1/3 No Limit Texas Holdem game at 1 pm. Call for Location.  Reserve yours seats now... Good luck, See you Soon!

 

[IC FBGCav]

Me: What happened?

Swat team cops, warrant said Jeff was a suspected drug dealer, lol, he liked to have fun, thats it

Jeff moved to nags head 3 weeks ago

Me: When did they come?

Like 5 or ,10 mins after you said almost

Thought they where you when we heard car pull up

Obviously I tag the wrong person as John and didn't go to that game.  It was much closer and probably been there for the bust.  Damn.

 

[IC FBGCav]

That was a close one.  They kept them for 5 hours.  30 swat team members.  Stripped searched everyone (including males searching a female)and search their cars.  Took all cash and no receipts.  

They got misdemeanor gambling charges.  These always get dismissed.

Crazy stuff.  4th time I almost got busted.

@Zow

It seems highly illegal to strip search them.  Am I wrong?

 

[Zow]

That was a close one.  They kept them for 5 hours.  30 swat team members.  Stripped searched everyone (including males searching a female)and search their cars.  Took all cash and no receipts.  

They got misdemeanor gambling charges.  These always get dismissed.

Crazy stuff.  4th time I almost got busted.

@Zow

It seems highly illegal to strip search them.  Am I wrong?

Well, maybe. If they had a warrant and detained the guys maybe not. The male on female stuff may have been a civil rights violation. 

 

[IC FBGCav]

Well, maybe. If they had a warrant and detained the guys maybe not. The male on female stuff may have been a civil rights violation. 

I don't know if rights were read.  Could they say no?

 

[IC FBGCav]

They were there 5 hours, took the keys of everyone and search their cars too, all while the name on the warrant wasn't there.

Plus this didn't hit the news which is odd.