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Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (1 Viewer)

George Zimmerman: Prelude to a shooting

(Reuters) - A pit bull named Big Boi began menacing George and Shellie Zimmerman in the fall of 2009.

The first time the dog ran free and cornered Shellie in their gated community in Sanford, Florida, George called the owner to complain. The second time, Big Boi frightened his mother-in-law's dog. Zimmerman called Seminole County Animal Services and bought pepper spray. The third time he saw the dog on the loose, he called again. An officer came to the house, county records show.

"Don't use pepper spray," he told the Zimmermans, according to a friend. "It'll take two or three seconds to take effect, but a quarter second for the dog to jump you," he said.

"Get a gun."

That November, the Zimmermans completed firearms training at a local lodge and received concealed-weapons gun permits. In early December, another source close to them told Reuters, the couple bought a pair of guns. George picked a Kel-Tec PF-9 9mm handgun, a popular, lightweight weapon.

By June 2011, Zimmerman's attention had shifted from a loose pit bull to a wave of robberies that rattled the community, called the Retreat at Twin Lakes. The homeowners association asked him to launch a neighborhood watch, and Zimmerman would begin to carry the Kel-Tec on his regular, dog-walking patrol - a violation of neighborhood watch guidelines but not a crime.

Few of his closest neighbors knew he carried a gun - until two months ago.

On February 26, George Zimmerman shot and killed unarmed black teenager Trayvon Martin in what Zimmerman says was self-defense. The furor that ensued has consumed the country and prompted a re-examination of guns, race and self-defense laws enacted in nearly half the United States.

During the time Zimmerman was in hiding, his detractors defined him as a vigilante who had decided Martin was suspicious merely because he was black. After Zimmerman was finally arrested on a charge of second-degree murder more than six weeks after the shooting, prosecutors portrayed him as a violent and angry man who disregarded authority by pursuing the 17-year-old.

But a more nuanced portrait of Zimmerman has emerged from a Reuters investigation into Zimmerman's past and a series of incidents in the community in the months preceding the Martin shooting.

Based on extensive interviews with relatives, friends, neighbors, schoolmates and co-workers of Zimmerman in two states, law enforcement officials, and reviews of court documents and police reports, the story sheds new light on the man at the center of one of the most controversial homicide cases in America.

The 28-year-old insurance-fraud investigator comes from a deeply Catholic background and was taught in his early years to do right by those less fortunate. He was raised in a racially integrated household and himself has black roots through an Afro-Peruvian great-grandfather - the father of the maternal grandmother who helped raise him.

A criminal justice student who aspired to become a judge, Zimmerman also concerned himself with the safety of his neighbors after a series of break-ins committed by young African-American men.

Though civil rights demonstrators have argued Zimmerman should not have prejudged Martin, one black neighbor of the Zimmermans said recent history should be taken into account.

"Let's talk about the elephant in the room. I'm black, OK?" the woman said, declining to be identified because she anticipated backlash due to her race. She leaned in to look a reporter directly in the eyes. "There were black boys robbing houses in this neighborhood," she said. "That's why George was suspicious of Trayvon Martin."

"MIXED" HOUSEHOLD

George Michael Zimmerman was born in 1983 to Robert and Gladys Zimmerman, the third of four children. Robert Zimmerman Sr. was a U.S. Army veteran who served in Vietnam in 1970, and was stationed at Fort Myer in Arlington, Virginia, in 1975 with Gladys Mesa's brother George. Zimmerman Sr. also served two tours in Korea, and spent the final 10 years of his 22-year military career in the Pentagon, working for the Department of Defense, a family member said.

In his final years in Virginia before retiring to Florida, Robert Zimmerman served as a magistrate in Fairfax County's 19th Judicial District.

Robert and Gladys met in January 1975, when George Mesa brought along his army buddy to his sister's birthday party. She was visiting from Peru, on vacation from her job there as a physical education teacher. Robert was a Baptist, Gladys was Catholic. They soon married, in a Catholic ceremony in Alexandria, and moved to nearby Manassas.

Gladys came to lead a small but growing Catholic Hispanic enclave within the All Saints Catholic Church parish in the late 1970s, where she was involved in the church's outreach programs. Gladys would bring young George along with her on "home visits" to poor families, said a family friend, Teresa Post.

"It was part of their upbringing to know that there are people in need, people more in need than themselves," said Post, a Peruvian immigrant who lived with the Zimmermans for a time.

Post recalls evening prayers before dinner in the ethnically diverse Zimmerman household, which included siblings Robert Jr., Grace, and Dawn. "It wasn't only white or only Hispanic or only black - it was mixed," she said.

Zimmerman's maternal grandmother, Cristina, who had lived with the Zimmermans since 1978, worked as a babysitter for years during Zimmerman's childhood. For several years she cared for two African-American girls who ate their meals at the Zimmerman house and went back and forth to school each day with the Zimmerman children.

"They were part of the household for years, until they were old enough to be on their own," Post said.

Zimmerman served as an altar boy at All Saints from age 7 to 17, church members said.

"He wasn't the type where, you know, 'I'm being forced to do this,' and a dragging-his-feet Catholic," said Sandra Vega, who went to high school with George and his siblings. "He was an altar boy for years, and then worked in the rectory too. He has a really good heart."

George grew up bilingual, and by age 10 he was often called to the Haydon Elementary School principal's office to act as a translator between administrators and immigrant parents. At 14 he became obsessed with becoming a Marine, a relative said, joining the after-school ROTC program at Grace E. Metz Middle School and polishing his boots by night. At 15, he worked three part-time jobs - in a Mexican restaurant, for the rectory, and washing cars - on nights and weekends, to save up for a car.

After graduating from Osbourn High School in 2001, Zimmerman moved to Lake Mary, Florida, a town neighboring Sanford. His parents purchased a retirement home there in 2002, in part to bring Cristina, who suffers from arthritis, to a warmer climate.

YOUNG INSURANCE AGENT

On his own at 18, George got a job at an insurance agency and began to take classes at night to earn a license to sell insurance. He grew friendly with a real estate agent named Lee Ann Benjamin, who shared office space in the building, and later her husband, John Donnelly, a Sanford attorney.

"George impressed me right off the bat as just a real go-getter," Donnelly said. "He was working days and taking all these classes at night, passing all the insurance classes, not just for home insurance, but auto insurance and everything. He wanted to open his own office - and he did."

In 2004, Zimmerman partnered with an African-American friend and opened up an Allstate insurance satellite office, Donnelly said.

Then came 2005, and a series of troubles. Zimmerman's business failed, he was arrested, and he broke off an engagement with a woman who filed a restraining order against him.

That July, Zimmerman was charged with resisting arrest, violence, and battery of an officer after shoving an undercover alcohol-control agent who was arresting an under-age friend of Zimmerman's at a bar. He avoided conviction by agreeing to participate in a pre-trial diversion program that included anger-management classes.

In August, Zimmerman's fiancee at the time, Veronica Zuazo, filed a civil motion for a restraining order alleging domestic violence. Zimmerman reciprocated with his own order on the same grounds, and both orders were granted. The relationship ended.

In 2007 he married Shellie Dean, a licensed cosmetologist, and in 2009 the couple rented a townhouse in the Retreat at Twin Lakes. Zimmerman had bounced from job to job for a couple of years, working at a car dealership and a mortgage company. At times, according to testimony from Shellie at a bond hearing for Zimmerman last week, the couple filed for unemployment benefits.

Zimmerman enrolled in Seminole State College in 2009, and in December 2011 he was permitted to participate in a school graduation ceremony, despite being a course credit shy of his associate's degree in criminal justice. Zimmerman was completing that course credit when the shooting occurred.

On March 22, nearly a month after the shooting and with the controversy by then swirling nationwide, the school issued a press release saying it was taking the "unusual, but necessary" step of withdrawing Zimmerman's enrollment, citing "the safety of our students on campus as well as for Mr. Zimmerman."

A NEIGHBORHOOD IN FEAR

By the summer of 2011, Twin Lakes was experiencing a rash of burglaries and break-ins. Previously a family-friendly, first-time homeowner community, it was devastated by the recession that hit the Florida housing market, and transient renters began to occupy some of the 263 town houses in the complex. Vandalism and occasional drug activity were reported, and home values plunged. One resident who bought his home in 2006 for $250,000 said it was worth $80,000 today.

At least eight burglaries were reported within Twin Lakes in the 14 months prior to the Trayvon Martin shooting, according to the Sanford Police Department. Yet in a series of interviews, Twin Lakes residents said dozens of reports of attempted break-ins and would-be burglars casing homes had created an atmosphere of growing fear in the neighborhood.

In several of the incidents, witnesses identified the suspects to police as young black men. Twin Lakes is about 50 percent white, with an African-American and Hispanic population of about 20 percent each, roughly similar to the surrounding city of Sanford, according to U.S. Census data.

One morning in July 2011, a black teenager walked up to Zimmerman's front porch and stole a bicycle, neighbors told Reuters. A police report was taken, though the bicycle was not recovered.

But it was the August incursion into the home of Olivia Bertalan that really troubled the neighborhood, particularly Zimmerman. Shellie was home most days, taking online courses towards certification as a registered nurse.

On August 3, Bertalan was at home with her infant son while her husband, Michael, was at work. She watched from a downstairs window, she said, as two black men repeatedly rang her doorbell and then entered through a sliding door at the back of the house. She ran upstairs, locked herself inside the boy's bedroom, and called a police dispatcher, whispering frantically.

"I said, 'What am I supposed to do? I hear them coming up the stairs!'" she told Reuters. Bertalan tried to coo her crying child into silence and armed herself with a pair of rusty scissors.

Police arrived just as the burglars - who had been trying to disconnect the couple's television - fled out a back door. Shellie Zimmerman saw a black male teen running through her backyard and reported it to police.

After police left Bertalan, George Zimmerman arrived at the front door in a shirt and tie, she said. He gave her his contact numbers on an index card and invited her to visit his wife if she ever felt unsafe. He returned later and gave her a stronger lock to bolster the sliding door that had been forced open.

"He was so mellow and calm, very helpful and very, very sweet," she said last week. "We didn't really know George at first, but after the break-in we talked to him on a daily basis. People were freaked out. It wasn't just George calling police ... we were calling police at least once a week."

In September, a group of neighbors including Zimmerman approached the homeowners association with their concerns, she said. Zimmerman was asked to head up a new neighborhood watch. He agreed.

"PLEASE CONTACT OUR CAPTAIN"

Police had advised Bertalan to get a dog. She and her husband decided to move out instead, and left two days before the shooting. Zimmerman took the advice.

"He'd already had a mutt that he walked around the neighborhood every night - man, he loved that dog - but after that home invasion he also got a Rottweiler," said Jorge Rodriguez, a friend and neighbor of the Zimmermans.

Around the same time, Zimmerman also gave Rodriguez and his wife, Audria, his contact information, so they could reach him day or night. Rodriguez showed the index card to Reuters. In neat cursive was a list of George and Shellie's home number and cell phones, as well as their emails.

Less than two weeks later, another Twin Lakes home was burglarized, police reports show. Two weeks after that, a home under construction was vandalized.

The Retreat at Twin Lakes e-newsletter for February 2012 noted: "The Sanford PD has announced an increased patrol within our neighborhood ... during peak crime hours.

"If you've been a victim of a crime in the community, after calling police, please contact our captain, George Zimmerman."

EMMANUEL BURGESS - SETTING THE STAGE

On February 2, 2012, Zimmerman placed a call to Sanford police after spotting a young black man he recognized peering into the windows of a neighbor's empty home, according to several friends and neighbors.

"I don't know what he's doing. I don't want to approach him, personally," Zimmerman said in the call, which was recorded. The dispatcher advised him that a patrol car was on the way. By the time police arrived, according to the dispatch report, the suspect had fled.

On February 6, the home of another Twin Lakes resident, Tatiana Demeacis, was burglarized. Two roofers working directly across the street said they saw two African-American men lingering in the yard at the time of the break-in. A new laptop and some gold jewelry were stolen. One of the roofers called police the next day after spotting one of the suspects among a group of male teenagers, three black and one white, on bicycles.

Police found Demeacis's laptop in the backpack of 18-year-old Emmanuel Burgess, police reports show, and charged him with dealing in stolen property. Burgess was the same man Zimmerman had spotted on February 2.

Burgess had committed a series of burglaries on the other side of town in 2008 and 2009, pleaded guilty to several, and spent all of 2010 incarcerated in a juvenile facility, his attorney said. He is now in jail on parole violations.

Three days after Burgess was arrested, Zimmerman's grandmother was hospitalized for an infection, and the following week his father was also admitted for a heart condition. Zimmerman spent a number of those nights on a hospital room couch.

Ten days after his father was hospitalized, Zimmerman noticed another young man in the neighborhood, acting in a way he found familiar, so he made another call to police.

"We've had some break-ins in my neighborhood, and there's a real suspicious guy," Zimmerman said, as Trayvon Martin returned home from the store.

The last time Zimmerman had called police, to report Burgess, he followed protocol and waited for police to arrive. They were too late, and Burgess got away.

This time, Zimmerman was not so patient, and he disregarded police advice against pursuing Martin.

"These #######s," he muttered in an aside, "they always get away."

After the phone call ended, several minutes passed when the movements of Zimmerman and Martin remain a mystery.

Moments later, Martin lay dead with a bullet in his chest.

(Editing by David Adams, Daniel Trotta and Prudence Crowther)
 
I'm not sure if this incident was brought up in this thread or not but I posted it in the mob beating thread. The girl who was shot just passed away last night and was shot in a stand your ground type of incident. Now we will wait and see if charges are brought up on the men/man who shot her.. My link
She probably warrants her own thread.
 
'jon_mx said:
'Widbil83 said:
I haven't been here for the last 10,000 posts but from what I gather-Zimmerman calls Martin a coon= debunkedZimmerman had no damage to his head= debunkedZimmerman stalked Martin= debunkedThe more I read the more I support Zimmerman.
don't forget:Zimmerman is a white racist = Debunked (Hispanic, Caucasian, and black)Zimmerman profiled Martin as a black man = Debunked (Zimmerman did not know, and only guessed black after asked)Zimmerman disobeyed an order = Debunked (No order, no authority, and not even clear he 'disobeyed')Zimmerman was much bigger - Debunked (Martin was much taller)Martin was a flawless little boy = Debunked ...............
- I wouldn't necessarily say that there is irrefutable evidence that Zimmerman didn't stalk Martin, rather, there is no proof that he did.- I am not certain about the profiling aspect either. I thought that was the case on my first hearing of Z's 911 call, but he could have been profiling considering the history of black teen break-ins in the neighborhood.
 
What has not been debunked is that George Zimmerman shot an unarmed teenager. We do not know why Zimmerman shot this teenager. We do know that he made a call to a 911 operator, in which he was suspicious of this teenager, and complained that "these ####ers always get away." We do know that during the call Zimmerman was told by the person he spoke to that he, Zimmerman, did not need to follow the teenager. There may be a claim of self-defense, but this claim has not been formally made. We do know that Zimmerman's attorney claims to have evidence of a broken nose suffered by Zimmerman at the time of the incident. We do know that whatever Zimmerman's story is, it was not believed by the police investigators who interviewed him. They recommended his arrest, and this recommendation was overruled for as yet unexplained reasons. We know that after a two week examination of the facts by a state-appointed prosecutor, in which she claims that that a thorough and exhaustive investigation was done, George Zimmerman was arrested on the charge of 2nd Degree Murder. We do know that the prosecutor claims to have evidence to back up this charge, but the evidence was not forthcoming in the affidavit. We do know that the Justice Department is conducting their own investigation this matter, including the questions of whether or not the actions of either Zimmerman or the Sanford Police Department and authorities were racially motivated.

Someone can correct me if I am wrong about anything I wrote in the above paragraph. So far as I am aware, it is ALL that we know about the facts of this case. The rest is surmise and conjecture. I would argue that there has actually been more surmise and conjecture from the "pro-Zimmerman" camp than from the "anti-Zimmerman" camp, but that is a subjective opinion on my part.

 
Depends on the evidence the prosecution has.
The question was not addressed to you. You have already convicted Zimmerman and have made so many ridiculous assertions about Zimmerman, your opinion means nothing. But the idea that you are even remotely interested in the evidence is beyond funny. Thanks for the laugh. :thumbup:
Thanks for confirming that you're too dumb to tie your shoelaces in the other thread. I'll make sure and :lmao: at all your posts from now on. You deserve it. I hope a black person never moves into the small town you live in, it will destroy your world view. And you probably won't know what to do with them.
Congrats, you are the one and only person on my ignore list. :thumbup:
Truth hurts, I guess.
 
What has not been debunked is that George Zimmerman shot an unarmed teenager. We do not know why Zimmerman shot this teenager. We do know that he made a call to a 911 operator, in which he was suspicious of this teenager, and complained that "these ####ers always get away." We do know that during the call Zimmerman was told by the person he spoke to that he, Zimmerman, did not need to follow the teenager. There may be a claim of self-defense, but this claim has not been formally made. We do know that Zimmerman's attorney claims to have evidence of a broken nose suffered by Zimmerman at the time of the incident. We do know that whatever Zimmerman's story is, it was not believed by the police investigators who interviewed him. They recommended his arrest, and this recommendation was overruled for as yet unexplained reasons. We know that after a two week examination of the facts by a state-appointed prosecutor, in which she claims that that a thorough and exhaustive investigation was done, George Zimmerman was arrested on the charge of 2nd Degree Murder. We do know that the prosecutor claims to have evidence to back up this charge, but the evidence was not forthcoming in the affidavit. We do know that the Justice Department is conducting their own investigation this matter, including the questions of whether or not the actions of either Zimmerman or the Sanford Police Department and authorities were racially motivated. Someone can correct me if I am wrong about anything I wrote in the above paragraph. So far as I am aware, it is ALL that we know about the facts of this case. The rest is surmise and conjecture. I would argue that there has actually been more surmise and conjecture from the "pro-Zimmerman" camp than from the "anti-Zimmerman" camp, but that is a subjective opinion on my part.
Were there multiple police investigators which recommended his arrest or, was it just the lead investigator who did not believe him. I dont recall there being more than one.
 
What has not been debunked is that George Zimmerman shot an unarmed teenager. We do not know why Zimmerman shot this teenager. We do know that he made a call to a 911 operator, in which he was suspicious of this teenager, and complained that "these ####ers always get away." We do know that during the call Zimmerman was told by the person he spoke to that he, Zimmerman, did not need to follow the teenager. There may be a claim of self-defense, but this claim has not been formally made. We do know that Zimmerman's attorney claims to have evidence of a broken nose suffered by Zimmerman at the time of the incident. We do know that whatever Zimmerman's story is, it was not believed by the police investigators who interviewed him. They recommended his arrest, and this recommendation was overruled for as yet unexplained reasons. We know that after a two week examination of the facts by a state-appointed prosecutor, in which she claims that that a thorough and exhaustive investigation was done, George Zimmerman was arrested on the charge of 2nd Degree Murder. We do know that the prosecutor claims to have evidence to back up this charge, but the evidence was not forthcoming in the affidavit. We do know that the Justice Department is conducting their own investigation this matter, including the questions of whether or not the actions of either Zimmerman or the Sanford Police Department and authorities were racially motivated. Someone can correct me if I am wrong about anything I wrote in the above paragraph. So far as I am aware, it is ALL that we know about the facts of this case. The rest is surmise and conjecture. I would argue that there has actually been more surmise and conjecture from the "pro-Zimmerman" camp than from the "anti-Zimmerman" camp, but that is a subjective opinion on my part.
Were there multiple police investigators which recommended his arrest or, was it just the lead investigator who did not believe him. I dont recall there being more than one.
I don't know the answer to this. It was reported in several places that the lead investigator recommended his arrest. I don't know if that's the same guy who testified at the bond hearing- I assume it is, but I'm not sure. There is no report that I am aware of that other police officers disagreed with this police officer. I am not aware that there were "multiple police investigators" at the time of the crime. What I know is this: at the time of the crime, there was a lead investigator who reportedly recommended his arrest and charge with murder. In later weeks, the specially appointed prosecutor had separate investigators on this case, and according to her they recommended Zimmerman's arrest and charge with 2nd degree murder. Thererfore, according to these two sources (in the first case, the news media, and in the second case, Angela Corey) we have at least two separate individuals who investigated this incident, and the conclusion of both people was that Zimmerman should be charged with murder. If there is a police officer or investigator who worked on this case and disagreed with this conclusion, there is no evidence as of yet of that person.
 
"Insufficient evidence" is the only reason that was ever given, so far as I know, by the state attorney general's office. The discussion of "Stand Your Ground" is conjecture. Wolfinger has never publicly spoken about his reasons for not agreeing to the arrest.

 
"Insufficient evidence" is the only reason that was ever given, so far as I know, by the state attorney general's office. The discussion of "Stand Your Ground" is conjecture. Wolfinger has never publicly spoken about his reasons for not agreeing to the arrest.
So that's the guy that started all this hullaballoo
 
"Insufficient evidence" is the only reason that was ever given, so far as I know, by the state attorney general's office. The discussion of "Stand Your Ground" is conjecture. Wolfinger has never publicly spoken about his reasons for not agreeing to the arrest.
So that's the guy that started all this hullaballoo
No, that would be George Zimmerman, to be precise.
Nah, unarmed people get shot all the time. The shooters don't always get to go home after having some donuts and coffee at the police station.
 
"Insufficient evidence" is the only reason that was ever given, so far as I know, by the state attorney general's office. The discussion of "Stand Your Ground" is conjecture. Wolfinger has never publicly spoken about his reasons for not agreeing to the arrest.
So that's the guy that started all this hullaballoo
No, that would be George Zimmerman, to be precise.
Nah, unarmed people get shot all the time. The shooters don't always get to go home after having some donuts and coffee at the police station.
I agree. If Zimmerman had been arrested and charged immediately, this case wouldn't have attracted nearly as much outrage and attention.

 
"Insufficient evidence" is the only reason that was ever given, so far as I know, by the state attorney general's office. The discussion of "Stand Your Ground" is conjecture. Wolfinger has never publicly spoken about his reasons for not agreeing to the arrest.
So that's the guy that started all this hullaballoo
No, that would be George Zimmerman, to be precise.
Nah, unarmed people get shot all the time. The shooters don't always get to go home after having some donuts and coffee at the police station.
I agree. If Zimmerman had been arrested and charged immediately, this case wouldn't have attracted nearly as much outrage and attention.
:goodposting:
 
I am pretty sure the DA made it clear he relied on the SYG law as the reason for not pressing charges.
To the best of my knowledge, you are incorrect. Per wiki:

Based on Serino's affidavit, police sought an arrest warrant for Zimmerman. That request was denied by the Office of the State Attorney for insufficient evidence.
Zimmerman has admitted to killing Martin. So the only thing possible that there could be insufficient evidence on is the self-defense claim via the SYG law. I think that is a well established fact, although it is technically a conclusion. I know of no one who disputes that being the reason Zimmerman was not charged.
 
I am pretty sure the DA made it clear he relied on the SYG law as the reason for not pressing charges.
To the best of my knowledge, you are incorrect. Per wiki:

Based on Serino's affidavit, police sought an arrest warrant for Zimmerman. That request was denied by the Office of the State Attorney for insufficient evidence.
Zimmerman has admitted to killing Martin. So the only thing possible that there could be insufficient evidence on is the self-defense claim via the SYG law. I think that is a well established fact, although it is technically a conclusion. I know of no one who disputes that being the reason Zimmerman was not charged.
You can assume it all you want. But it's never been confirmed, so we don't know.
 
I am pretty sure the DA made it clear he relied on the SYG law as the reason for not pressing charges.
To the best of my knowledge, you are incorrect. Per wiki:

Based on Serino's affidavit, police sought an arrest warrant for Zimmerman. That request was denied by the Office of the State Attorney for insufficient evidence.
Zimmerman has admitted to killing Martin. So the only thing possible that there could be insufficient evidence on is the self-defense claim via the SYG law. I think that is a well established fact, although it is technically a conclusion. I know of no one who disputes that being the reason Zimmerman was not charged.
You can assume it all you want. But it's never been confirmed, so we don't know.
Tim, this is like me kicking you in the ### and being the only person within 10 miles. You might not have seen me do it and I am not admitting to it, but there is no other possibility. Let's not take Christo's analality to the extreme.
 
I am pretty sure the DA made it clear he relied on the SYG law as the reason for not pressing charges.
To the best of my knowledge, you are incorrect. Per wiki:

Based on Serino's affidavit, police sought an arrest warrant for Zimmerman. That request was denied by the Office of the State Attorney for insufficient evidence.
Zimmerman has admitted to killing Martin. So the only thing possible that there could be insufficient evidence on is the self-defense claim via the SYG law. I think that is a well established fact, although it is technically a conclusion. I know of no one who disputes that being the reason Zimmerman was not charged.
You can assume it all you want. But it's never been confirmed, so we don't know.
This is asinine as spending weeks doubting John's existence. It's been reported, confirmed and reported some more to the point where it's pretty much the ENTIRE DISCUSSION. :lmao:
 
'jon_mx said:
'Widbil83 said:
I haven't been here for the last 10,000 posts but from what I gather-

Zimmerman calls Martin a coon= debunked

Zimmerman had no damage to his head= debunked

Zimmerman stalked Martin= debunked

The more I read the more I support Zimmerman.
don't forget:Zimmerman is a white racist = Debunked (Hispanic, Caucasian, and black)

Zimmerman profiled Martin as a black man = Debunked (Zimmerman did not know, and only guessed black after asked)

Zimmerman disobeyed an order = Debunked (No order, no authority, and not even clear he 'disobeyed')

Zimmerman was much bigger - Debunked (Martin was much taller)

Martin was a flawless little boy = Debunked ...............
- I wouldn't necessarily say that there is irrefutable evidence that Zimmerman didn't stalk Martin, rather, there is no proof that he did.- I am not certain about the profiling aspect either. I thought that was the case on my first hearing of Z's 911 call, but he could have been profiling considering the history of black teen break-ins in the neighborhood.
Is this an I'm not talking legally thing?
 
Breaking news on CNN. Zimmerman raised over $200,000 on his website.
So no attorney will ever allow a client to deliberately lie, but clients don't hesitate to allow their uninformed attorneys to do so at bond hearings?I know O'mara didn't lie when he lied about Zimmerman's indigence, he was ignorant of it, but Zimmerman sure as hell knew. Wait, we have to be careful. It's possible Zimmerman had no idea 200k had rolled into his paypal account since he'd been a little preoccupied. Yeah right. :thumbdown: Can the judge raise the bond, make him post a new one, lock him back up and start over?
 
'Chaos Commish said:
'Da Guru said:
Breaking news on CNN. Zimmerman raised over $200,000 on his website.
So no attorney will ever allow a client to deliberately lie, but clients don't hesitate to allow their uninformed attorneys to do so at bond hearings?I know O'mara didn't lie when he lied about Zimmerman's indigence, he was ignorant of it, but Zimmerman sure as hell knew. Wait, we have to be careful. It's possible Zimmerman had no idea 200k had rolled into his paypal account since he'd been a little preoccupied. Yeah right. :thumbdown: Can the judge raise the bond, make him post a new one, lock him back up and start over?
Yes, it looks like O'Mara is going to tell the judge tomorrow.
 
'Chaos Commish said:
'Da Guru said:
Breaking news on CNN. Zimmerman raised over $200,000 on his website.
So no attorney will ever allow a client to deliberately lie, but clients don't hesitate to allow their uninformed attorneys to do so at bond hearings?I know O'mara didn't lie when he lied about Zimmerman's indigence, he was ignorant of it, but Zimmerman sure as hell knew. Wait, we have to be careful. It's possible Zimmerman had no idea 200k had rolled into his paypal account since he'd been a little preoccupied. Yeah right. :thumbdown: Can the judge raise the bond, make him post a new one, lock him back up and start over?
I wouldn't be surprised for him to admit the broken nose thing was made up too. But that he "believed it at the time".
 
I am pretty sure the DA made it clear he relied on the SYG law as the reason for not pressing charges.
To the best of my knowledge, you are incorrect. Per wiki:

Based on Serino's affidavit, police sought an arrest warrant for Zimmerman. That request was denied by the Office of the State Attorney for insufficient evidence.
Zimmerman has admitted to killing Martin. So the only thing possible that there could be insufficient evidence on is the self-defense claim via the SYG law. I think that is a well established fact, although it is technically a conclusion. I know of no one who disputes that being the reason Zimmerman was not charged.
You can assume it all you want. But it's never been confirmed, so we don't know.
This is asinine as spending weeks doubting John's existence. It's been reported, confirmed and reported some more to the point where it's pretty much the ENTIRE DISCUSSION. :lmao:
Actually I don't think it's asinine at all. There is some real dispute as to why Wolfinger refused to approve the arrest of George Zimmerman. Several black leaders, most notably Al Sharpton, have implied rather heavily that the failure to arrest Zimmerman was due to racial reasons- because Trayvon Martin was a black male, whose life was worth less than a white victim would have been, to paraphrase Sharpton. We have no evidence of this accusation being at all accurate, but we have no evidence that it was because of "Stand Your Ground" either. Wolfinger has never said what the reason was. Until he does, "Stand Your Ground" is conjecture. It's reasonable conjecture, but it's not proven.
 
I wouldn't be surprised for him to admit the broken nose thing was made up too. But that he "believed it at the time".
So far, the only evidence we have of a broken nose is from the bond hearing. O'Mara asked the investigator if he (the investigator) was aware of a broken nose. The investigator said no, and O'Mara responded "Would you like me to show you the medical report?" Then he added as an aside "On second thought, I think I'll present that at a later time" or something to that effect. These comments, made in court, are enough to convince me that there is evidence of a broken nose. If it turns out there was no broken nose, then wouldn't O'Mara be in contempt for lying about a medical report?
 
I am pretty sure the DA made it clear he relied on the SYG law as the reason for not pressing charges.
To the best of my knowledge, you are incorrect. Per wiki:

Based on Serino's affidavit, police sought an arrest warrant for Zimmerman. That request was denied by the Office of the State Attorney for insufficient evidence.
Zimmerman has admitted to killing Martin. So the only thing possible that there could be insufficient evidence on is the self-defense claim via the SYG law. I think that is a well established fact, although it is technically a conclusion. I know of no one who disputes that being the reason Zimmerman was not charged.
You can assume it all you want. But it's never been confirmed, so we don't know.
This is asinine as spending weeks doubting John's existence. It's been reported, confirmed and reported some more to the point where it's pretty much the ENTIRE DISCUSSION. :lmao:
Actually I don't think it's asinine at all. There is some real dispute as to why Wolfinger refused to approve the arrest of George Zimmerman. Several black leaders, most notably Al Sharpton, have implied rather heavily that the failure to arrest Zimmerman was due to racial reasons- because Trayvon Martin was a black male, whose life was worth less than a white victim would have been, to paraphrase Sharpton. We have no evidence of this accusation being at all accurate, but we have no evidence that it was because of "Stand Your Ground" either. Wolfinger has never said what the reason was. Until he does, "Stand Your Ground" is conjecture. It's reasonable conjecture, but it's not proven.
No Tim, your logic is not reasonable at all. It is tin-foil hat-land batass crazy. I just can't imagine skin color making one bit of difference. The law is on Zimmerman's side, which under these conditions is probably unfortunate.
 
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No Tim, your logic is not reasonable at all. It is tin-foil hat-land batass crazy. I just can't imagine skin color making one bit of difference. The law is on Zimmerman's side, which under these conditions is probably unfortunate.
I'm not making any claims. I think you guys are almost certainly right about Wolfinger. But what I posted earlier was restricted to what we KNOW. This is one of the things we don't know.
 
No Tim, your logic is not reasonable at all. It is tin-foil hat-land batass crazy. I just can't imagine skin color making one bit of difference. The law is on Zimmerman's side, which under these conditions is probably unfortunate.
I'm not making any claims. I think you guys are almost certainly right about Wolfinger. But what I posted earlier was restricted to what we KNOW. This is one of the things we don't know.
You put the two possibilities on equal footing, which i find absurd. I just don't see that as reasonable given what is known.
 
No Tim, your logic is not reasonable at all. It is tin-foil hat-land batass crazy. I just can't imagine skin color making one bit of difference. The law is on Zimmerman's side, which under these conditions is probably unfortunate.
I'm not making any claims. I think you guys are almost certainly right about Wolfinger. But what I posted earlier was restricted to what we KNOW. This is one of the things we don't know.
You put the two possibilities on equal footing, which i find absurd. I just don't see that as reasonable given what is known.
Personally I don't put them on equal footing. But there are lots of people with different views on this issue. Polls suggest that as much as 80% of all African-Americans believe that Zimmerman was not initially arrested for racial reasons. That's several million people who believe that. Given this fact, plus the fact that Wolfinger has never publicly explained himself, I chose in my earlier statement to stick to facts only. If you want to know what I think, it's that Wolfinger didn't arrest Zimmerman due to Wolfinger's interpretation of Stand Your Ground, which may or may not be correct. That is what I THINK. But it is not what I (or you) know.
 
No Tim, your logic is not reasonable at all. It is tin-foil hat-land batass crazy. I just can't imagine skin color making one bit of difference. The law is on Zimmerman's side, which under these conditions is probably unfortunate.
I'm not making any claims. I think you guys are almost certainly right about Wolfinger. But what I posted earlier was restricted to what we KNOW. This is one of the things we don't know.
You put the two possibilities on equal footing, which i find absurd. I just don't see that as reasonable given what is known.
Personally I don't put them on equal footing. But there are lots of people with different views on this issue. Polls suggest that as much as 80% of all African-Americans believe that Zimmerman was not initially arrested for racial reasons. That's several million people who believe that. Given this fact, plus the fact that Wolfinger has never publicly explained himself, I chose in my earlier statement to stick to facts only. If you want to know what I think, it's that Wolfinger didn't arrest Zimmerman due to Wolfinger's interpretation of Stand Your Ground, which may or may not be correct. That is what I THINK. But it is not what I (or you) know.
OK, but I think Christo's anality is rubbing off on too many people.
 
No Tim, your logic is not reasonable at all. It is tin-foil hat-land batass crazy. I just can't imagine skin color making one bit of difference. The law is on Zimmerman's side, which under these conditions is probably unfortunate.
I'm not making any claims. I think you guys are almost certainly right about Wolfinger. But what I posted earlier was restricted to what we KNOW. This is one of the things we don't know.
You put the two possibilities on equal footing, which i find absurd. I just don't see that as reasonable given what is known.
Personally I don't put them on equal footing. But there are lots of people with different views on this issue. Polls suggest that as much as 80% of all African-Americans believe that Zimmerman was not initially arrested for racial reasons. That's several million people who believe that. Given this fact, plus the fact that Wolfinger has never publicly explained himself, I chose in my earlier statement to stick to facts only. If you want to know what I think, it's that Wolfinger didn't arrest Zimmerman due to Wolfinger's interpretation of Stand Your Ground, which may or may not be correct. That is what I THINK. But it is not what I (or you) know.
OK, but I think Christo's anality is rubbing off on too many people.
I don't know what that means, but if it means you're a butthole, I have to agree.
 
No Tim, your logic is not reasonable at all. It is tin-foil hat-land batass crazy. I just can't imagine skin color making one bit of difference. The law is on Zimmerman's side, which under these conditions is probably unfortunate.
I'm not making any claims. I think you guys are almost certainly right about Wolfinger. But what I posted earlier was restricted to what we KNOW. This is one of the things we don't know.
You put the two possibilities on equal footing, which i find absurd. I just don't see that as reasonable given what is known.
Personally I don't put them on equal footing. But there are lots of people with different views on this issue. Polls suggest that as much as 80% of all African-Americans believe that Zimmerman was not initially arrested for racial reasons. That's several million people who believe that. Given this fact, plus the fact that Wolfinger has never publicly explained himself, I chose in my earlier statement to stick to facts only. If you want to know what I think, it's that Wolfinger didn't arrest Zimmerman due to Wolfinger's interpretation of Stand Your Ground, which may or may not be correct. That is what I THINK. But it is not what I (or you) know.
OK, but I think Christo's anality is rubbing off on too many people.
I don't know what that means, but if it means you're a butthole, I have to agree.
:lmao: now THATS pretty funny
 
I am pretty sure the DA made it clear he relied on the SYG law as the reason for not pressing charges.
To the best of my knowledge, you are incorrect. Per wiki:

Based on Serino's affidavit, police sought an arrest warrant for Zimmerman. That request was denied by the Office of the State Attorney for insufficient evidence.
Zimmerman has admitted to killing Martin. So the only thing possible that there could be insufficient evidence on is the self-defense claim via the SYG law. I think that is a well established fact, although it is technically a conclusion. I know of no one who disputes that being the reason Zimmerman was not charged.
You can assume it all you want. But it's never been confirmed, so we don't know.
This is asinine as spending weeks doubting John's existence. It's been reported, confirmed and reported some more to the point where it's pretty much the ENTIRE DISCUSSION. :lmao:
Actually I don't think it's asinine at all. There is some real dispute as to why Wolfinger refused to approve the arrest of George Zimmerman. Several black leaders, most notably Al Sharpton, have implied rather heavily that the failure to arrest Zimmerman was due to racial reasons- because Trayvon Martin was a black male, whose life was worth less than a white victim would have been, to paraphrase Sharpton. We have no evidence of this accusation being at all accurate, but we have no evidence that it was because of "Stand Your Ground" either. Wolfinger has never said what the reason was. Until he does, "Stand Your Ground" is conjecture. It's reasonable conjecture, but it's not proven.
Sharpton is your source for the asininity. Makes sense. There is no real dispute about why Zimmerman was not arrested for so long. There is a fake dispute designed to inflame racial discord. You're following the race baiters not the legal story. Your black leaders, if that's what you want to call them, have never mentioned the law regarding that issue because they're frauds. We've discussed that law in here over and over.Wolfinger explained why he stepped down -- to hopefully tone down your beloved populist horde. That was the end of statements from him. The city of Sanford released this official statement, which wasn't just posted and discussed in this thread but rolled by a few pages later in a Honda. It states that Zimmerman claimed self defense and goes on to cite the new stand your ground law in Florida as the reason they could not legally arrest him without probable cause, which they then felt, and I still suspect, they lack(ed).

 
So let me get this straight. What they're claiming now is that conversations went something like this:

O'Mara: We have a bond hearing, do you have any assets?

Zimmerman: No, I'm indigent and my family is poor.

Later:

O'Mara: We need to shut down this website and your online accounts to keep people from impersonating you.

Zimmerman: Ok, what should I do with the $204,000?

O'Mara: $204,000?

Zimmerman: Well, more like $150,000 now, I spent a lot of it.

Big, fat liar. Willing to lie in court. Pathological.

 
He spent 50 grand on living expenses in less than two months? Killing someone in controversial self defense is good business. What a handful this guy is as a client. So he definitely lied to his attorney because he was spending donations at a 7 grand a week clip yet claimed he and his family had very limited resources for a bond. What a chump. I hope Lester tears him a new one.

O'Mara could not explain why Zimmerman didn't disclose the funds, but said he didn't think his client had meant to deceive anyone."If that was an oversight by him, then it was. And quite honestly, with everything he's going through for the past several weeks, if that's the only oversight he's committed, we'll deal with it, Judge Lester will deal with it," he said.Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump said Zimmerman's failure to reveal that he had the money shows that he is being dishonest."If his testimony at the bond hearing is any indication of what is to come, then the lying has already begun," Crump said.
 
'Chaos Commish said:
He spent 50 grand on living expenses in less than two months? Killing someone in controversial self defense is good business. What a handful this guy is as a client. So he definitely lied to his attorney because he was spending donations at a 7 grand a week clip yet claimed he and his family had very limited resources for a bond. What a chump. I hope Lester tears him a new one.

O'Mara could not explain why Zimmerman didn't disclose the funds, but said he didn't think his client had meant to deceive anyone.

"If that was an oversight by him, then it was. And quite honestly, with everything he's going through for the past several weeks, if that's the only oversight he's committed, we'll deal with it, Judge Lester will deal with it," he said.

Martin family attorney Benjamin Crump said Zimmerman's failure to reveal that he had the money shows that he is being dishonest.

"If his testimony at the bond hearing is any indication of what is to come, then the lying has already begun," Crump said.
Sounds as though Zimmerman has his attorney second guessing. Not necessarily a good thing. I am beginning to wonder if he hasn't been playing a lot of people for fools from the beginning. I was certainly of the mindset that he was an idiot with a gun, which lead to this situation. But he does possess beyond a basic familiarity of the law and has to have been aware of the Florida SYG law. Perhaps he had it in the back of his mind for a while to try something when the opportunity presented itself and use his knowledge of the law to spin the circumstances to his advantage. Or perhaps he really just is an idiot.Either way SYG+SM+PP= :moneybag: He was smart enough to figure that out.

 
'Chaos Commish said:
Wolfinger explained why he stepped down -- to hopefully tone down your beloved populist horde. That was the end of statements from him. The city of Sanford released this official statement, which wasn't just posted and discussed in this thread but rolled by a few pages later in a Honda. It states that Zimmerman claimed self defense and goes on to cite the new stand your ground law in Florida as the reason they could not legally arrest him without probable cause, which they then felt, and I still suspect, they lack(ed).
Thank you for clarifying this point. I stand corrected.
 
Revised. Here is what we know about this case:

George Zimmerman shot an unarmed teenager. We do not know why Zimmerman shot this teenager. We do know that he made a call to a 911 operator, in which he was suspicious of this teenager, and complained that "these ####ers always get away." We do know that during the call Zimmerman was told by the person he spoke to that he, Zimmerman, did not need to follow the teenager. Per the Sanford police department, George Zimmerman claimed self-defense. We do know that Zimmerman's attorney claims to have evidence of a broken nose suffered by Zimmerman at the time of the incident. We do know that whatever Zimmerman's story is, it was not believed by the lead police investigator who interviewed him. This investigator recommended his arrest, and this recommendation was overruled. The explanation given for it being overruled was the "Stand Your Ground" law, though there are several black activists who don't believe this explanation. We know that after a two week examination of the facts by a state-appointed prosecutor, in which she claims that that a thorough and exhaustive investigation was done, George Zimmerman was arrested on the charge of 2nd Degree Murder. We do know that the prosecutor claims to have evidence to back up this charge, but the evidence was not forthcoming in the affidavit. We do know that the Justice Department is conducting their own investigation on this matter, including the questions of whether or not the actions of either Zimmerman or the Sanford Police Department and authorities were racially motivated.

 
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'Da Guru said:
Breaking news on CNN. Zimmerman raised over $200,000 on his website.
Was Zimmerman required to disclose his complete financial situation during the bond hearing? Did he simply have to say the family could not afford the requested $1 million bond the prosecution wanted? Which is still true. I don't see how the court doesn't realize Zimmerman could have made some donations from his website that was well known. It was even posted here in this thread.
 
'Da Guru said:
Breaking news on CNN. Zimmerman raised over $200,000 on his website.
Was Zimmerman required to disclose his complete financial situation during the bond hearing? Did he simply have to say the family could not afford the requested $1 million bond the prosecution wanted? Which is still true. I don't see how the court doesn't realize Zimmerman could have made some donations from his website that was well known. It was even posted here in this thread.
He wasn't allowed to say he was indigent when he had $204,000.
 
Does this equal standards for perjury if not in a jury trial? Or is it something less.

Regardless, not especially good for Zim's cred to be caught in a lie this early in the process.

 

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