Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (2 Viewers)

[Carolina Hustler]

Is he being charged with a perjury count?

Not yet, although he might be along with his wife.

He would have had to lie to the court to be charged with perjury. He didn't lie, his wife did..

Wrong, his own attorney flatly said he did lie to the court.

To be clear, O'mara said his client "allowed his financial situation to be misrepresented in court."

Yeah, but that just doesn't sound as good, does it?

Same thing.Just as his attorney said the same thing, but tried to say it in way that sounded better.

So he's going to be convicted for perjury for not lieing then?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Is he being charged with a perjury count?

Not yet, although he might be along with his wife.

He would have had to lie to the court to be charged with perjury. He didn't lie, his wife did..

Wrong, his own attorney flatly said he did lie to the court.

To be clear, O'mara said his client "allowed his financial situation to be misrepresented in court."

Yeah, but that just doesn't sound as good, does it?

Yeah, but it still shows his willingness to lie to the authorities to protect himself. And since he's the only witness one of many witnesses in this case, deceiving the court doesn't help him out much.

I figured this is what you mean to say.

NOPE, he had it right the first time.Gershman, who listened to a majority of the witness recordings, said he doubts jurors will get a sense of who started the fight — a key point that experts believe the case rests upon.

"I don't think we're ever going to have a clear picture of what happened," he said.

Derek B. Brett, an Orlando attorney who represents one of the witnesses, agrees. Like the others, his client saw two shadows struggling, heard some sort of noise, and is unsure of how the confrontation started.

"The only true eye witness who is going to give testimony is George Zimmerman," he said.

So you're saying there are no credible witnesses that will say he started the fight, or contradict his testimony.. Got it..

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Is he being charged with a perjury count?

Not yet, although he might be along with his wife.

He would have had to lie to the court to be charged with perjury. He didn't lie, his wife did..

Wrong, his own attorney flatly said he did lie to the court.

To be clear, O'mara said his client "allowed his financial situation to be misrepresented in court."

Yeah, but that just doesn't sound as good, does it?

Same thing.

No, it's not.

Identical. Synonymous.

Mislead: : to lead in a wrong direction or into a mistaken action or belief often by deliberate deceit

Lie: : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive. to create a false or misleading impression.

per·ju·ry [pur-juh-ree] noun, plural per·ju·ries. Law .The willful giving of false testimony under oath

When did he testify on his finances? I missed that part..

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I think using the terms "approached", "concerned neighbor" and "adult" is why we're at loggerheads here.

Angry idiot in pursuit with a gun and his mind made up is more in line with the facts, as we know them. Zimmerman has done nothing to show he is an adult in the aftermath.

Potayto, patahto.

During the confrontation, the bolded is the only thing we're certain of, the rest is speculation..

Zimmerman was an idiot before the killing and remains one, he was angry on the 911 call and wasn't exactly chipper following The killing (unless you believe getting beat up by a kid he outweighed by 40lbs would put a smile on his face), and he did in fact pursue Martin. None of that is speculation. Saying he was getting roughed up enough to legitimately fear for his life would be speculation on your part. But I'll call it BS. He just doesn't seem credible, nor reasonable.

Their is no proof that he was pursuing Trayvon when the confrontation started. There is no proof that Trayvon didn't attack him. There is no proof that Zimmerman was even a willing participant in a struggle..

 

[Chairshot]

Their is no proof that he was pursuing Trayvon when the confrontation started. There is no proof that Trayvon didn't attack him. There is no proof that Zimmerman was even a willing participant in a struggle..

This is a strange post. There is also no proof that Zimmerman wasn't pursuing Martin. No proof that Martin did attack Zimmerman. No proof that Zimmerman was not a willing participant in the struggle.Plus, wouldn't it be on Zimmerman to prove, at least in some respect, that Martin did attack him? Isn't that a critical piece of him claiming self-defense? If he can't prove that Martin attacked him, wouldn't that actually hurt his case?Personally, my belief (at this point anyway), is that Zimmerman's actions fall somewhere between recklessly negligent and aggressive. However, I don't know how any of the points that you brought up above get proved one way or another, regardless. With the information we have now, Zimmerman walks, I think. Whether he deserves to walk, I'm not sure and I doubt we will ever truly know.

 

[pittstownkiller]

Their is no proof that he was pursuing Trayvon when the confrontation started. There is no proof that Trayvon didn't attack him. There is no proof that Zimmerman was even a willing participant in a struggle..

This is a strange post. There is also no proof that Zimmerman wasn't pursuing Martin. No proof that Martin did attack Zimmerman. No proof that Zimmerman was not a willing participant in the struggle.Plus, wouldn't it be on Zimmerman to prove, at least in some respect, that Martin did attack him? Isn't that a critical piece of him claiming self-defense? If he can't prove that Martin attacked him, wouldn't that actually hurt his case?Personally, my belief (at this point anyway), is that Zimmerman's actions fall somewhere between recklessly negligent and aggressive. However, I don't know how any of the points that you brought up above get proved one way or another, regardless. With the information we have now, Zimmerman walks, I think. Whether he deserves to walk, I'm not sure and I doubt we will ever truly know.

I don't know if Zimmerman has to prove anything, it is innocent until proven guilty after all; all he has to do is answer proof that the prosecution brings up (as to it's validity).

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Identical.

Synonymous.

Mislead: : to lead in a wrong direction or into a mistaken action or belief often by deliberate deceit

Lie: : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive. to create a false or misleading impression.

per·ju·ry [pur-juh-ree] noun, plural per·ju·ries. Law .The willful giving of false testimony under oath

When did he testify on his finances? I missed that part..

He certainly did, with his lawyer, about his Passport (and potentially on his finances)...http://www.scribd.com/doc/95589216/Prosecutors-motion-to-revoke-George-Zimmerman-s-bond

Furthermore he continued the deceit on record via the phone calls in prison.

 

[pittstownkiller]

I think using the terms "approached", "concerned neighbor" and "adult" is why we're at loggerheads here.

Angry idiot in pursuit with a gun and his mind made up is more in line with the facts, as we know them. Zimmerman has done nothing to show he is an adult in the aftermath.

Potayto, patahto.

During the confrontation, the bolded is the only thing we're certain of, the rest is speculation..

What proof do we have that Zimmerman had a gun? Just because he used a gun, doesn't mean he had a gun. How do we know it wasn't a gun just laying there in the grass that Zimmerman happened to pick up? Maybe it was Martin's gun.

Oh Tim, this is really below your debating skill. Is it really so hard to remove emotion from this case and just look at facts?

 

[timschochet]

I think using the terms "approached", "concerned neighbor" and "adult" is why we're at loggerheads here.

Angry idiot in pursuit with a gun and his mind made up is more in line with the facts, as we know them. Zimmerman has done nothing to show he is an adult in the aftermath.

Potayto, patahto.

During the confrontation, the bolded is the only thing we're certain of, the rest is speculation..

What proof do we have that Zimmerman had a gun? Just because he used a gun, doesn't mean he had a gun. How do we know it wasn't a gun just laying there in the grass that Zimmerman happened to pick up? Maybe it was Martin's gun.

Oh Tim, this is really below your debating skill. Is it really so hard to remove emotion from this case and just look at facts?

What proof is there that I have debating skill?

 

[pittstownkiller]

Identical.

Synonymous.

Mislead: : to lead in a wrong direction or into a mistaken action or belief often by deliberate deceit

Lie: : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive. to create a false or misleading impression.

per·ju·ry [pur-juh-ree] noun, plural per·ju·ries. Law .The willful giving of false testimony under oath

When did he testify on his finances? I missed that part..

He certainly did, with his lawyer, about his Passport (and potentially on his finances)...http://www.scribd.com/doc/95589216/Prosecutors-motion-to-revoke-George-Zimmerman-s-bond

Furthermore he continued the deceit on record via the phone calls in prison.

BST, you do realize that the prison phone calls are not testimony?

 

[pittstownkiller]

I think using the terms "approached", "concerned neighbor" and "adult" is why we're at loggerheads here.

Angry idiot in pursuit with a gun and his mind made up is more in line with the facts, as we know them. Zimmerman has done nothing to show he is an adult in the aftermath.

Potayto, patahto.

During the confrontation, the bolded is the only thing we're certain of, the rest is speculation..

What proof do we have that Zimmerman had a gun? Just because he used a gun, doesn't mean he had a gun. How do we know it wasn't a gun just laying there in the grass that Zimmerman happened to pick up? Maybe it was Martin's gun.

Oh Tim, this is really below your debating skill. Is it really so hard to remove emotion from this case and just look at facts?

What proof is there that I have debating skill?

It seems that you might be trying to prove that you don't have any debating skills.

 

[Chairshot]

Their is no proof that he was pursuing Trayvon when the confrontation started. There is no proof that Trayvon didn't attack him. There is no proof that Zimmerman was even a willing participant in a struggle..

This is a strange post. There is also no proof that Zimmerman wasn't pursuing Martin. No proof that Martin did attack Zimmerman. No proof that Zimmerman was not a willing participant in the struggle.Plus, wouldn't it be on Zimmerman to prove, at least in some respect, that Martin did attack him? Isn't that a critical piece of him claiming self-defense? If he can't prove that Martin attacked him, wouldn't that actually hurt his case?Personally, my belief (at this point anyway), is that Zimmerman's actions fall somewhere between recklessly negligent and aggressive. However, I don't know how any of the points that you brought up above get proved one way or another, regardless. With the information we have now, Zimmerman walks, I think. Whether he deserves to walk, I'm not sure and I doubt we will ever truly know.

I don't know if Zimmerman has to prove anything, it is innocent until proven guilty after all; all he has to do is answer proof that the prosecution brings up (as to it's validity).

Yeah, but I was under the impression that when claiming self-defense you have to make a case for it. I believe that Zimmerman will have to show some sort of evidence that his life was in danger and that it was reasonable for him to believe that his life was in danger. My understanding is that a self-defense claim is handled differently then simply answering charges against you - you have to meet criteria that proves the situation warranted the self-defense action. I'm sure if I'm wrong I'll be corrected in thinking any of that, tho.

 

[pittstownkiller]

Their is no proof that he was pursuing Trayvon when the confrontation started. There is no proof that Trayvon didn't attack him. There is no proof that Zimmerman was even a willing participant in a struggle..

This is a strange post. There is also no proof that Zimmerman wasn't pursuing Martin. No proof that Martin did attack Zimmerman. No proof that Zimmerman was not a willing participant in the struggle.Plus, wouldn't it be on Zimmerman to prove, at least in some respect, that Martin did attack him? Isn't that a critical piece of him claiming self-defense? If he can't prove that Martin attacked him, wouldn't that actually hurt his case?Personally, my belief (at this point anyway), is that Zimmerman's actions fall somewhere between recklessly negligent and aggressive. However, I don't know how any of the points that you brought up above get proved one way or another, regardless. With the information we have now, Zimmerman walks, I think. Whether he deserves to walk, I'm not sure and I doubt we will ever truly know.

I don't know if Zimmerman has to prove anything, it is innocent until proven guilty after all; all he has to do is answer proof that the prosecution brings up (as to it's validity).

Yeah, but I was under the impression that when claiming self-defense you have to make a case for it. I believe that Zimmerman will have to show some sort of evidence that his life was in danger and that it was reasonable for him to believe that his life was in danger. My understanding is that a self-defense claim is handled differently then simply answering charges against you - you have to meet criteria that proves the situation warranted the self-defense action. I'm sure if I'm wrong I'll be corrected in thinking any of that, tho.

I am not a lawyer so I'll reply to this from my POV instead of the legal definition: it would seem to me that the prosecution would have to demonstrate that a reasonable person would not of feared being "severely injured" in this altercation; a lofty bar indeed. It would also seem to me that the reason that this version of SYG was passed in Florida was to prevent someone from having to prove his reasoning from not doing every possible action to avoid fighting back; another hurdle the prosecution will have to contend with. If the Florida SYG law's application here is a perversion based on its original intent, it will have to be something that is addressed in future cases. The legal eagles can feel free to correct me where I am wrong.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Identical.

Synonymous.

Mislead: : to lead in a wrong direction or into a mistaken action or belief often by deliberate deceit

Lie: : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive. to create a false or misleading impression.

per·ju·ry [pur-juh-ree] noun, plural per·ju·ries. Law .The willful giving of false testimony under oath

When did he testify on his finances? I missed that part..

He certainly did, with his lawyer, about his Passport (and potentially on his finances)...http://www.scribd.com/doc/95589216/Prosecutors-motion-to-revoke-George-Zimmerman-s-bond

Furthermore he continued the deceit on record via the phone calls in prison.

BST, you do realize that the prison phone calls are not testimony?

No they certainly arent testimony, but removes any chance that he can say try and play ignorant.

 

[pittstownkiller]

Identical.

Synonymous.

Mislead: : to lead in a wrong direction or into a mistaken action or belief often by deliberate deceit

Lie: : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive. to create a false or misleading impression.

per·ju·ry [pur-juh-ree] noun, plural per·ju·ries. Law .The willful giving of false testimony under oath

When did he testify on his finances? I missed that part..

He certainly did, with his lawyer, about his Passport (and potentially on his finances)...http://www.scribd.com/doc/95589216/Prosecutors-motion-to-revoke-George-Zimmerman-s-bond

Furthermore he continued the deceit on record via the phone calls in prison.

BST, you do realize that the prison phone calls are not testimony?

No they certainly arent testimony, but removes any chance that he can say try and play ignorant.

I don't know if he would have to defend himself against this since he probably wouldn't be charged for a crime on this. If his bond is revoked (which it might be as it could be argued that he may be a flight risk over the passport issue), it doesn't really effect his case just where he goes after court is done for the day.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Identical.

Synonymous.

Mislead: : to lead in a wrong direction or into a mistaken action or belief often by deliberate deceit

Lie: : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive. to create a false or misleading impression.

per·ju·ry [pur-juh-ree] noun, plural per·ju·ries. Law .The willful giving of false testimony under oath

When did he testify on his finances? I missed that part..

He certainly did, with his lawyer, about his Passport (and potentially on his finances)...http://www.scribd.com/doc/95589216/Prosecutors-motion-to-revoke-George-Zimmerman-s-bond

Furthermore he continued the deceit on record via the phone calls in prison.

BST, you do realize that the prison phone calls are not testimony?

No they certainly arent testimony, but removes any chance that he can say try and play ignorant.

I don't know if he would have to defend himself against this since he probably wouldn't be charged for a crime on this. If his bond is revoked (which it might be as it could be argued that he may be a flight risk over the passport issue), it doesn't really effect his case just where he goes after court is done for the day.

Do understand that the original catalyst which I posted, was...There is no way in hell that any of the alleged transgression of Trayvon (as a minor no less) are as nearly as nefarious as the known transgressions of George.

Which came after CarolinaSpinHustler talked about what a bad person Trayvon was (in comparison).... not about him having perjured or him not having perjured.

 

[pantherclub]

Hustlers defense of Zimmerman is bordering on the lines of psychotic.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Their is no proof that he was pursuing Trayvon when the confrontation started. There is no proof that Trayvon didn't attack him. There is no proof that Zimmerman was even a willing participant in a struggle..

This is a strange post. There is also no proof that Zimmerman wasn't pursuing Martin. No proof that Martin did attack Zimmerman. No proof that Zimmerman was not a willing participant in the struggle.Plus, wouldn't it be on Zimmerman to prove, at least in some respect, that Martin did attack him? Isn't that a critical piece of him claiming self-defense? If he can't prove that Martin attacked him, wouldn't that actually hurt his case?Personally, my belief (at this point anyway), is that Zimmerman's actions fall somewhere between recklessly negligent and aggressive. However, I don't know how any of the points that you brought up above get proved one way or another, regardless. With the information we have now, Zimmerman walks, I think. Whether he deserves to walk, I'm not sure and I doubt we will ever truly know.

The burden of proof is on the prosecution, not the defendant.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

I think using the terms "approached", "concerned neighbor" and "adult" is why we're at loggerheads here.

Angry idiot in pursuit with a gun and his mind made up is more in line with the facts, as we know them. Zimmerman has done nothing to show he is an adult in the aftermath.

Potayto, patahto.

During the confrontation, the bolded is the only thing we're certain of, the rest is speculation..

What proof do we have that Zimmerman had a gun? Just because he used a gun, doesn't mean he had a gun. How do we know it wasn't a gun just laying there in the grass that Zimmerman happened to pick up? Maybe it was Martin's gun.

Oh Tim, this is really below your debating skill. Is it really so hard to remove emotion from this case and just look at facts?

What proof is there that I have debating skill?

It seems that you might be trying to prove that you don't have any debating skills.

Tims using a bit of humor now, seeing logic has no place in this thread anymore.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Identical.

Synonymous.

Mislead: : to lead in a wrong direction or into a mistaken action or belief often by deliberate deceit

Lie: : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive. to create a false or misleading impression.

per·ju·ry [pur-juh-ree] noun, plural per·ju·ries. Law .The willful giving of false testimony under oath

When did he testify on his finances? I missed that part..

He certainly did, with his lawyer, about his Passport (and potentially on his finances)...http://www.scribd.com/doc/95589216/Prosecutors-motion-to-revoke-George-Zimmerman-s-bond

Furthermore he continued the deceit on record via the phone calls in prison.

To perjure yourself, you have to give false testimony under oath.. And I believe to the court.. Zimmerman wasn't under oath when he was talking with his wife or his lawyer..

You're wrong, He didn't lie to the court under oath, about the passport, or the money, so sorry buddy, no perjury...

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Hustlers defense of Zimmerman is bordering on the lines of psychotic.

toast

 

[Carolina Hustler]

He certainly did, with his lawyer, about his Passport (and potentially on his finances)...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/95589216/Prosecutors-motion-to-revoke-George-Zimmerman-s-bond

Furthermore he continued the deceit on record via the phone calls in prison.

BST, you do realize that the prison phone calls are not testimony?

No they certainly arent testimony, but removes any chance that he can say try and play ignorant.

I don't know if he would have to defend himself against this since he probably wouldn't be charged for a crime on this. If his bond is revoked (which it might be as it could be argued that he may be a flight risk over the passport issue), it doesn't really effect his case just where he goes after court is done for the day.

Do understand that the original catalyst which I posted, was...There is no way in hell that any of the alleged transgression of Trayvon (as a minor no less) are as nearly as nefarious as the known transgressions of George.

Which came after CarolinaSpinHustler talked about what a bad person Trayvon was (in comparison).... not about him having perjured or him not having perjured.

The catalyst for the "He lied" debate

Is he being charged with a perjury count?

Not yet, although he might be along with his wife.

He would have had to lie to the court to be charged with perjury. He didn't lie, his wife did..

Wrong, his own attorney flatly said he did lie to the court.

You're on a roll fella..

 

[pantherclub]

Their is no proof that he was pursuing Trayvon when the confrontation started. There is no proof that Trayvon didn't attack him. There is no proof that Zimmerman was even a willing participant in a struggle..

This is a strange post. There is also no proof that Zimmerman wasn't pursuing Martin. No proof that Martin did attack Zimmerman. No proof that Zimmerman was not a willing participant in the struggle.Plus, wouldn't it be on Zimmerman to prove, at least in some respect, that Martin did attack him? Isn't that a critical piece of him claiming self-defense? If he can't prove that Martin attacked him, wouldn't that actually hurt his case?Personally, my belief (at this point anyway), is that Zimmerman's actions fall somewhere between recklessly negligent and aggressive. However, I don't know how any of the points that you brought up above get proved one way or another, regardless. With the information we have now, Zimmerman walks, I think. Whether he deserves to walk, I'm not sure and I doubt we will ever truly know.

The burden of proof is on the prosecution, not the defendant.

They know Zimmerman shot TM, the burden is now on the defense to show it was self defense. We covered this like 20 pages ago.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Their is no proof that he was pursuing Trayvon when the confrontation started. There is no proof that Trayvon didn't attack him. There is no proof that Zimmerman was even a willing participant in a struggle..

This is a strange post. There is also no proof that Zimmerman wasn't pursuing Martin. No proof that Martin did attack Zimmerman. No proof that Zimmerman was not a willing participant in the struggle.Plus, wouldn't it be on Zimmerman to prove, at least in some respect, that Martin did attack him? Isn't that a critical piece of him claiming self-defense? If he can't prove that Martin attacked him, wouldn't that actually hurt his case?Personally, my belief (at this point anyway), is that Zimmerman's actions fall somewhere between recklessly negligent and aggressive. However, I don't know how any of the points that you brought up above get proved one way or another, regardless. With the information we have now, Zimmerman walks, I think. Whether he deserves to walk, I'm not sure and I doubt we will ever truly know.

The burden of proof is on the prosecution, not the defendant.

They know Zimmerman shot TM, the burden is now on the defense to show it was self defense. We covered this like 20 pages ago.

Yea, we did cover it.. The defense only has to make the claim and show basis for the claim.. It's up to the prosecution to make toast.. Un-toasted till proven guilty..

 

[timschochet]

Tims using a bit of humor now, seeing logic has no place in this thread anymore.

Not so much humor but absurdity. If Carolina Hustler and others want to respond to all statements of reasonable inference that make Zimmerman's actions look questionable (at best) with, "You have no proof!" then this is what we're left with. I have no proof that Trayvon Martin wasn't a space alien. Therefore, I assume he was a space alien.

 

[timschochet]

Their is no proof that he was pursuing Trayvon when the confrontation started. There is no proof that Trayvon didn't attack him. There is no proof that Zimmerman was even a willing participant in a struggle..

This is what I'm talking about. There's no proof that Zimmerman was even there. Maybe it was a doppleganger pretending to be Zimmerman. Prove it wasn't.

 

[pantherclub]

Their is no proof that he was pursuing Trayvon when the confrontation started. There is no proof that Trayvon didn't attack him. There is no proof that Zimmerman was even a willing participant in a struggle..

This is a strange post. There is also no proof that Zimmerman wasn't pursuing Martin. No proof that Martin did attack Zimmerman. No proof that Zimmerman was not a willing participant in the struggle.Plus, wouldn't it be on Zimmerman to prove, at least in some respect, that Martin did attack him? Isn't that a critical piece of him claiming self-defense? If he can't prove that Martin attacked him, wouldn't that actually hurt his case?

Personally, my belief (at this point anyway), is that Zimmerman's actions fall somewhere between recklessly negligent and aggressive. However, I don't know how any of the points that you brought up above get proved one way or another, regardless. With the information we have now, Zimmerman walks, I think. Whether he deserves to walk, I'm not sure and I doubt we will ever truly know.

The burden of proof is on the prosecution, not the defendant.

They know Zimmerman shot TM, the burden is now on the defense to show it was self defense. We covered this like 20 pages ago.

Yea, we did cover it.. The defense only has to make the claim and show basis for the claim.. It's up to the prosecution to make toast.. Un-toasted till proven guilty..

Thats what I said.

 

[Charlie Frown]

I think using the terms "approached", "concerned neighbor" and "adult" is why we're at loggerheads here.

Angry idiot in pursuit with a gun and his mind made up is more in line with the facts, as we know them. Zimmerman has done nothing to show he is an adult in the aftermath.

Potayto, patahto.

During the confrontation, the bolded is the only thing we're certain of, the rest is speculation..

Zimmerman was an idiot before the killing and remains one, he was angry on the 911 call and wasn't exactly chipper following The killing (unless you believe getting beat up by a kid he outweighed by 40lbs would put a smile on his face), and he did in fact pursue Martin. None of that is speculation. Saying he was getting roughed up enough to legitimately fear for his life would be speculation on your part. But I'll call it BS. He just doesn't seem credible, nor reasonable.

I can't believe people still doubt the fact that Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating his ###. Hasn't this been confirmed by multiple eyewitness accounts?Somebody punches you in the nose and knocks you down is one thing but if they jump on top of you and continue pounding it is perfectly reasonable for someone to be in fear for his life IMO.

 

[Charlie Frown]

Based on his past drug connections and history of violence, there's every reason to believe that Trayvon Martin was a mob enforcer, trained to assassinate people with his bare hands. Because Martin lived in Florida, there is also the high probabiltiy that he was a CIA operative who specialized in hand to hand combat. Finally, we can't disregard the possibility that, because there was a full moon that night, Trayvon Martin was a lycanthrope (werewolf) and undergoing transformation at the time he was killed.

Bump. Has anyone provided proof that Trayvon Martin was not a werewolf?

Maybe Zimmerman was packing silver bullets? If not he would be dead.

 

[mad sweeney]

I think using the terms "approached", "concerned neighbor" and "adult" is why we're at loggerheads here.

Angry idiot in pursuit with a gun and his mind made up is more in line with the facts, as we know them. Zimmerman has done nothing to show he is an adult in the aftermath.

Potayto, patahto.

During the confrontation, the bolded is the only thing we're certain of, the rest is speculation..

Zimmerman was an idiot before the killing and remains one, he was angry on the 911 call and wasn't exactly chipper following The killing (unless you believe getting beat up by a kid he outweighed by 40lbs would put a smile on his face), and he did in fact pursue Martin. None of that is speculation. Saying he was getting roughed up enough to legitimately fear for his life would be speculation on your part. But I'll call it BS. He just doesn't seem credible, nor reasonable.

I can't believe people still doubt the fact that Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating his ###. Hasn't this been confirmed by multiple eyewitness accounts?Somebody punches you in the nose and knocks you down is one thing but if they jump on top of you and continue pounding it is perfectly reasonable for someone to be in fear for his life IMO.

And if someone is following you to the point where you fear for your life and try to subdue them, it's perfectly reasonable to make sure the guy is knocked out so he can't reach for a weapon, like a gun.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Their is no proof that he was pursuing Trayvon when the confrontation started. There is no proof that Trayvon didn't attack him. There is no proof that Zimmerman was even a willing participant in a struggle..

This is a strange post. There is also no proof that Zimmerman wasn't pursuing Martin. No proof that Martin did attack Zimmerman. No proof that Zimmerman was not a willing participant in the struggle.Plus, wouldn't it be on Zimmerman to prove, at least in some respect, that Martin did attack him? Isn't that a critical piece of him claiming self-defense? If he can't prove that Martin attacked him, wouldn't that actually hurt his case?

Personally, my belief (at this point anyway), is that Zimmerman's actions fall somewhere between recklessly negligent and aggressive. However, I don't know how any of the points that you brought up above get proved one way or another, regardless. With the information we have now, Zimmerman walks, I think. Whether he deserves to walk, I'm not sure and I doubt we will ever truly know.

The burden of proof is on the prosecution, not the defendant.

They know Zimmerman shot TM, the burden is now on the defense to show it was self defense. We covered this like 20 pages ago.

Yea, we did cover it.. The defense only has to make the claim and show basis for the claim.. It's up to the prosecution to make toast.. Un-toasted till proven guilty..

Thats what I said.

No you said they had to "proove" it.. Which is not the case..

 

[pantherclub]

I think using the terms "approached", "concerned neighbor" and "adult" is why we're at loggerheads here.

Angry idiot in pursuit with a gun and his mind made up is more in line with the facts, as we know them. Zimmerman has done nothing to show he is an adult in the aftermath.

Potayto, patahto.

During the confrontation, the bolded is the only thing we're certain of, the rest is speculation..

Zimmerman was an idiot before the killing and remains one, he was angry on the 911 call and wasn't exactly chipper following The killing (unless you believe getting beat up by a kid he outweighed by 40lbs would put a smile on his face), and he did in fact pursue Martin. None of that is speculation. Saying he was getting roughed up enough to legitimately fear for his life would be speculation on your part. But I'll call it BS. He just doesn't seem credible, nor reasonable.

I can't believe people still doubt the fact that Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating his ###. Hasn't this been confirmed by multiple eyewitness accounts?Somebody punches you in the nose and knocks you down is one thing but if they jump on top of you and continue pounding it is perfectly reasonable for someone to be in fear for his life IMO.

come on man, Zimmerman knew it was kid

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Their is no proof that he was pursuing Trayvon when the confrontation started. There is no proof that Trayvon didn't attack him. There is no proof that Zimmerman was even a willing participant in a struggle..

This is what I'm talking about. There's no proof that Zimmerman was even there. Maybe it was a doppleganger pretending to be Zimmerman. Prove it wasn't.

He's innocent until proven guilty, the burden of proof is on the prosecution.. There is criteria they must meet in order to obtain a guilty verdict, until they do, he's innocent..Not very hard to understand if you try..

 

[pantherclub]

Their is no proof that he was pursuing Trayvon when the confrontation started. There is no proof that Trayvon didn't attack him. There is no proof that Zimmerman was even a willing participant in a struggle..

This is a strange post. There is also no proof that Zimmerman wasn't pursuing Martin. No proof that Martin did attack Zimmerman. No proof that Zimmerman was not a willing participant in the struggle.Plus, wouldn't it be on Zimmerman to prove, at least in some respect, that Martin did attack him? Isn't that a critical piece of him claiming self-defense? If he can't prove that Martin attacked him, wouldn't that actually hurt his case?

Personally, my belief (at this point anyway), is that Zimmerman's actions fall somewhere between recklessly negligent and aggressive. However, I don't know how any of the points that you brought up above get proved one way or another, regardless. With the information we have now, Zimmerman walks, I think. Whether he deserves to walk, I'm not sure and I doubt we will ever truly know.

The burden of proof is on the prosecution, not the defendant.

They know Zimmerman shot TM, the burden is now on the defense to show it was self defense. We covered this like 20 pages ago.

Yea, we did cover it.. The defense only has to make the claim and show basis for the claim.. It's up to the prosecution to make toast.. Un-toasted till proven guilty..

Thats what I said.

No you said they had to "proove" it.. Which is not the case..

semantics...againAs we discussed way back when the defense has to prove (or make the claim as you say) that Zimmerman acted in self defense. They cannot just say "self defense" without having some sort of evidence or basis for that.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Tims using a bit of humor now, seeing logic has no place in this thread anymore.

Not so much humor but absurdity. If Carolina Hustler and others want to respond to all statements of reasonable inference that make Zimmerman's actions look questionable (at best) with, "You have no proof!" then this is what we're left with. I have no proof that Trayvon Martin wasn't a space alien. Therefore, I assume he was a space alien.

I think the coroner could testify on that matter..

 

[kentric]

You don't know that Trayvon didn't approach Zimmerman rather than go straight home.

And if a concerned adult asks my son what hes doing walking through the neighborhood at night, my son better be respectful and let him know. If my son punched him instead, because "I wasn't doin nothing wrong, he had no right to hassle me" there would be hell to pay when I found out..

"Trayvon hadn't done anything wrong" doesn't excuse him to attack someone..

You don't know that Zimmerman didn't make everything perfectly clear, you weren't there were you?

What if your son was afraid because some dude he didn't know was watching him while talking on a cell phone, then tried to follow him home and so he felt like he had to defend himself?

My son is the starting Varsity RB/MLB, if he told me he couldn't outrun the guy, he'd then be in trouble for lieing to me as well..

That's not really answering the question, but I guess you can respond how you want.I'm sure you can imagine a situation where your son might feel cornered. Given the fact that you seem to trust your son, I doubt you would assume he was in the wrong if he told you he felt scared/intimidated and needed to fight to defend himself.

I don't know what happened any more than anyone else does, but it does seem entirely plausible to me that Martin sees a suspicious man talking on the phone while staring him down. Martin has no idea who this guy is talking to or who he is or why he would be interested in him. Then he sees the guy following him and maybe he freaks out a bit. He's 17 years old and in a part of town he's not used to.

The part of this situation that bothers me more than anything else is that Zimmerman had a gun with him. To me, that puts an extra responsibility on Zimmerman to act above board. Zimmerman has a freedom in that he knows he can hassle others a little bit because if the situation gets out of hand he can simply pop off a couple shots and claim self defense. Maybe Martin did start the fight, I don't know. But Zimmerman walked into the situation with a gun, knowing full well how to use it. The guy with the gun should be above reproach in his actions and I don't think, no matter how you cut it, we can say that about Zimmerman. He definitely made some mistakes in the way he handled this situation. Whether those mistakes equal a crime remains to be seen, I suppose.

Although it was within Z's rights to carry a gun, as a gun holder he should have taken more care in his actions. There's no denying that if Z stays in his car none of this happens.

 

[kentric]

I already said earlier in the thread I would not be happy if someone approached my son with a gun, but that's not illegal..

You're a ####### idiot.

Only reason I keep coming back to this thread is because I can be assured of such lovely eloquence as you've just shown. Keep up the good work.

 

[pantherclub]

You don't know that Trayvon didn't approach Zimmerman rather than go straight home.

And if a concerned adult asks my son what hes doing walking through the neighborhood at night, my son better be respectful and let him know. If my son punched him instead, because "I wasn't doin nothing wrong, he had no right to hassle me" there would be hell to pay when I found out..

"Trayvon hadn't done anything wrong" doesn't excuse him to attack someone..

You don't know that Zimmerman didn't make everything perfectly clear, you weren't there were you?

What if your son was afraid because some dude he didn't know was watching him while talking on a cell phone, then tried to follow him home and so he felt like he had to defend himself?

My son is the starting Varsity RB/MLB, if he told me he couldn't outrun the guy, he'd then be in trouble for lieing to me as well..

That's not really answering the question, but I guess you can respond how you want.I'm sure you can imagine a situation where your son might feel cornered. Given the fact that you seem to trust your son, I doubt you would assume he was in the wrong if he told you he felt scared/intimidated and needed to fight to defend himself.

I don't know what happened any more than anyone else does, but it does seem entirely plausible to me that Martin sees a suspicious man talking on the phone while staring him down. Martin has no idea who this guy is talking to or who he is or why he would be interested in him. Then he sees the guy following him and maybe he freaks out a bit. He's 17 years old and in a part of town he's not used to.

The part of this situation that bothers me more than anything else is that Zimmerman had a gun with him. To me, that puts an extra responsibility on Zimmerman to act above board. Zimmerman has a freedom in that he knows he can hassle others a little bit because if the situation gets out of hand he can simply pop off a couple shots and claim self defense. Maybe Martin did start the fight, I don't know. But Zimmerman walked into the situation with a gun, knowing full well how to use it. The guy with the gun should be above reproach in his actions and I don't think, no matter how you cut it, we can say that about Zimmerman. He definitely made some mistakes in the way he handled this situation. Whether those mistakes equal a crime remains to be seen, I suppose.

Although it was within Z's rights to carry a gun, as a gun holder he should have taken more care in his actions. There's no denying that if Z stays in his car none of this happens.

Thats a huge issue I have with the Zimmer. While its in his rights to carry obviously I thought they taught you that you had to tighten up and have your crap together when you carried your piece. Getting out of a car to chase a black kid in the dark just reeks of poor logic and lack of safety.

 

[Charlie Frown]

I think using the terms "approached", "concerned neighbor" and "adult" is why we're at loggerheads here.

Angry idiot in pursuit with a gun and his mind made up is more in line with the facts, as we know them. Zimmerman has done nothing to show he is an adult in the aftermath.

Potayto, patahto.

During the confrontation, the bolded is the only thing we're certain of, the rest is speculation..

Zimmerman was an idiot before the killing and remains one, he was angry on the 911 call and wasn't exactly chipper following The killing (unless you believe getting beat up by a kid he outweighed by 40lbs would put a smile on his face), and he did in fact pursue Martin. None of that is speculation. Saying he was getting roughed up enough to legitimately fear for his life would be speculation on your part. But I'll call it BS. He just doesn't seem credible, nor reasonable.

I can't believe people still doubt the fact that Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating his ###. Hasn't this been confirmed by multiple eyewitness accounts?Somebody punches you in the nose and knocks you down is one thing but if they jump on top of you and continue pounding it is perfectly reasonable for someone to be in fear for his life IMO.

And if someone is following you to the point where you fear for your life and try to subdue them, it's perfectly reasonable to make sure the guy is knocked out so he can't reach for a weapon, like a gun.

If someone is simply following you, at what point would you consider it wise to attack them (assuming that this is what happened of course).

 

[pantherclub]

I think using the terms "approached", "concerned neighbor" and "adult" is why we're at loggerheads here.

Angry idiot in pursuit with a gun and his mind made up is more in line with the facts, as we know them. Zimmerman has done nothing to show he is an adult in the aftermath.

Potayto, patahto.

During the confrontation, the bolded is the only thing we're certain of, the rest is speculation..

Zimmerman was an idiot before the killing and remains one, he was angry on the 911 call and wasn't exactly chipper following The killing (unless you believe getting beat up by a kid he outweighed by 40lbs would put a smile on his face), and he did in fact pursue Martin. None of that is speculation. Saying he was getting roughed up enough to legitimately fear for his life would be speculation on your part. But I'll call it BS. He just doesn't seem credible, nor reasonable.

I can't believe people still doubt the fact that Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating his ###. Hasn't this been confirmed by multiple eyewitness accounts?Somebody punches you in the nose and knocks you down is one thing but if they jump on top of you and continue pounding it is perfectly reasonable for someone to be in fear for his life IMO.

And if someone is following you to the point where you fear for your life and try to subdue them, it's perfectly reasonable to make sure the guy is knocked out so he can't reach for a weapon, like a gun.

If someone is simply following you, at what point would you consider it wise to attack them (assuming that this is what happened of course).

Zimmy was following him and then questioned him. Who knows what was said.

 

[Charlie Frown]

I think using the terms "approached", "concerned neighbor" and "adult" is why we're at loggerheads here.

Angry idiot in pursuit with a gun and his mind made up is more in line with the facts, as we know them. Zimmerman has done nothing to show he is an adult in the aftermath.

Potayto, patahto.

During the confrontation, the bolded is the only thing we're certain of, the rest is speculation..

Zimmerman was an idiot before the killing and remains one, he was angry on the 911 call and wasn't exactly chipper following The killing (unless you believe getting beat up by a kid he outweighed by 40lbs would put a smile on his face), and he did in fact pursue Martin. None of that is speculation. Saying he was getting roughed up enough to legitimately fear for his life would be speculation on your part. But I'll call it BS. He just doesn't seem credible, nor reasonable.

I can't believe people still doubt the fact that Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating his ###. Hasn't this been confirmed by multiple eyewitness accounts?Somebody punches you in the nose and knocks you down is one thing but if they jump on top of you and continue pounding it is perfectly reasonable for someone to be in fear for his life IMO.

come on man, Zimmerman knew it was kid

And yet he was getting his ### handed to him. I know some 17 year olds I wouldn't want to tangle with (especially being old and out of shape).

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I think using the terms "approached", "concerned neighbor" and "adult" is why we're at loggerheads here.

Angry idiot in pursuit with a gun and his mind made up is more in line with the facts, as we know them. Zimmerman has done nothing to show he is an adult in the aftermath.

Potayto, patahto.

During the confrontation, the bolded is the only thing we're certain of, the rest is speculation..

Zimmerman was an idiot before the killing and remains one, he was angry on the 911 call and wasn't exactly chipper following The killing (unless you believe getting beat up by a kid he outweighed by 40lbs would put a smile on his face), and he did in fact pursue Martin. None of that is speculation. Saying he was getting roughed up enough to legitimately fear for his life would be speculation on your part. But I'll call it BS. He just doesn't seem credible, nor reasonable.

I can't believe people still doubt the fact that Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating his ###. Hasn't this been confirmed by multiple eyewitness accounts?Somebody punches you in the nose and knocks you down is one thing but if they jump on top of you and continue pounding it is perfectly reasonable for someone to be in fear for his life IMO.

And if someone is following you to the point where you fear for your life and try to subdue them, it's perfectly reasonable to make sure the guy is knocked out so he can't reach for a weapon, like a gun.

How'd that reasoning work out in this case.. Doesn't seem so smart and reasonable to me..And there still is no proof that Zimmerman was following Trayvon to the point Trayvon was in fear for his life.

If Zimmerman chased Trayvon down and tried to detain him, and Trayvon then punched him, knocked him down, and then was holding him down thinking someone was coming to help, or to call the police for him.. That would be a legitimate reason for Trayvon to be on top.. Problem is, no one is here to testify on that scenario.. The Prosecution has criteria they have to meet. I think they're going to have a hard time meeting it..

 

[pantherclub]

I think using the terms "approached", "concerned neighbor" and "adult" is why we're at loggerheads here.

Angry idiot in pursuit with a gun and his mind made up is more in line with the facts, as we know them. Zimmerman has done nothing to show he is an adult in the aftermath.

Potayto, patahto.

During the confrontation, the bolded is the only thing we're certain of, the rest is speculation..

Zimmerman was an idiot before the killing and remains one, he was angry on the 911 call and wasn't exactly chipper following The killing (unless you believe getting beat up by a kid he outweighed by 40lbs would put a smile on his face), and he did in fact pursue Martin. None of that is speculation. Saying he was getting roughed up enough to legitimately fear for his life would be speculation on your part. But I'll call it BS. He just doesn't seem credible, nor reasonable.

I can't believe people still doubt the fact that Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating his ###. Hasn't this been confirmed by multiple eyewitness accounts?Somebody punches you in the nose and knocks you down is one thing but if they jump on top of you and continue pounding it is perfectly reasonable for someone to be in fear for his life IMO.

come on man, Zimmerman knew it was kid

And yet he was getting his ### handed to him. I know some 17 year olds I wouldn't want to tangle with (especially being old and out of shape).

A lot of people think they are tough until they get hit.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Who knows what was said.

Exactly, so it seems a little ridiculous to declare he's Toast (guilty) without knowing all the details..

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I think using the terms "approached", "concerned neighbor" and "adult" is why we're at loggerheads here.

Angry idiot in pursuit with a gun and his mind made up is more in line with the facts, as we know them. Zimmerman has done nothing to show he is an adult in the aftermath.

Potayto, patahto.

During the confrontation, the bolded is the only thing we're certain of, the rest is speculation..

Zimmerman was an idiot before the killing and remains one, he was angry on the 911 call and wasn't exactly chipper following The killing (unless you believe getting beat up by a kid he outweighed by 40lbs would put a smile on his face), and he did in fact pursue Martin. None of that is speculation. Saying he was getting roughed up enough to legitimately fear for his life would be speculation on your part. But I'll call it BS. He just doesn't seem credible, nor reasonable.

I can't believe people still doubt the fact that Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating his ###. Hasn't this been confirmed by multiple eyewitness accounts?Somebody punches you in the nose and knocks you down is one thing but if they jump on top of you and continue pounding it is perfectly reasonable for someone to be in fear for his life IMO.

come on man, Zimmerman knew it was kid

And yet he was getting his ### handed to him. I know some 17 year olds I wouldn't want to tangle with (especially being old and out of shape).

A lot of people think they are tough until they get hit.

And your point?Young athletes usually have more of a superman complex than out of shape adults..

 

[pantherclub]

I think using the terms "approached", "concerned neighbor" and "adult" is why we're at loggerheads here.

Angry idiot in pursuit with a gun and his mind made up is more in line with the facts, as we know them. Zimmerman has done nothing to show he is an adult in the aftermath.

Potayto, patahto.

During the confrontation, the bolded is the only thing we're certain of, the rest is speculation..

Zimmerman was an idiot before the killing and remains one, he was angry on the 911 call and wasn't exactly chipper following The killing (unless you believe getting beat up by a kid he outweighed by 40lbs would put a smile on his face), and he did in fact pursue Martin. None of that is speculation. Saying he was getting roughed up enough to legitimately fear for his life would be speculation on your part. But I'll call it BS. He just doesn't seem credible, nor reasonable.

I can't believe people still doubt the fact that Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating his ###. Hasn't this been confirmed by multiple eyewitness accounts?Somebody punches you in the nose and knocks you down is one thing but if they jump on top of you and continue pounding it is perfectly reasonable for someone to be in fear for his life IMO.

come on man, Zimmerman knew it was kid

And yet he was getting his ### handed to him. I know some 17 year olds I wouldn't want to tangle with (especially being old and out of shape).

A lot of people think they are tough until they get hit.

And your point?Young athletes usually have more of a superman complex than out of shape adults..

Thats debatable at best given Zimmers history, his cop syndrome and his penchant for carrying a loaded weapon.

 

[mad sweeney]

I think using the terms "approached", "concerned neighbor" and "adult" is why we're at loggerheads here.

Angry idiot in pursuit with a gun and his mind made up is more in line with the facts, as we know them. Zimmerman has done nothing to show he is an adult in the aftermath.

Potayto, patahto.

During the confrontation, the bolded is the only thing we're certain of, the rest is speculation..

Zimmerman was an idiot before the killing and remains one, he was angry on the 911 call and wasn't exactly chipper following The killing (unless you believe getting beat up by a kid he outweighed by 40lbs would put a smile on his face), and he did in fact pursue Martin. None of that is speculation. Saying he was getting roughed up enough to legitimately fear for his life would be speculation on your part. But I'll call it BS. He just doesn't seem credible, nor reasonable.

I can't believe people still doubt the fact that Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating his ###. Hasn't this been confirmed by multiple eyewitness accounts?Somebody punches you in the nose and knocks you down is one thing but if they jump on top of you and continue pounding it is perfectly reasonable for someone to be in fear for his life IMO.

And if someone is following you to the point where you fear for your life and try to subdue them, it's perfectly reasonable to make sure the guy is knocked out so he can't reach for a weapon, like a gun.

If someone is simply following you, at what point would you consider it wise to attack them (assuming that this is what happened of course).

At the point I felt that I had no other option. I don't know where/when that is, but it's a point that the pro-Z side seemingly fails to consider.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

You don't know that Trayvon didn't approach Zimmerman rather than go straight home.

And if a concerned adult asks my son what hes doing walking through the neighborhood at night, my son better be respectful and let him know. If my son punched him instead, because "I wasn't doin nothing wrong, he had no right to hassle me" there would be hell to pay when I found out..

"Trayvon hadn't done anything wrong" doesn't excuse him to attack someone..

You don't know that Zimmerman didn't make everything perfectly clear, you weren't there were you?

What if your son was afraid because some dude he didn't know was watching him while talking on a cell phone, then tried to follow him home and so he felt like he had to defend himself?

My son is the starting Varsity RB/MLB, if he told me he couldn't outrun the guy, he'd then be in trouble for lieing to me as well..

That's not really answering the question, but I guess you can respond how you want.I'm sure you can imagine a situation where your son might feel cornered. Given the fact that you seem to trust your son, I doubt you would assume he was in the wrong if he told you he felt scared/intimidated and needed to fight to defend himself.

I don't know what happened any more than anyone else does, but it does seem entirely plausible to me that Martin sees a suspicious man talking on the phone while staring him down. Martin has no idea who this guy is talking to or who he is or why he would be interested in him. Then he sees the guy following him and maybe he freaks out a bit. He's 17 years old and in a part of town he's not used to.

The part of this situation that bothers me more than anything else is that Zimmerman had a gun with him. To me, that puts an extra responsibility on Zimmerman to act above board. Zimmerman has a freedom in that he knows he can hassle others a little bit because if the situation gets out of hand he can simply pop off a couple shots and claim self defense. Maybe Martin did start the fight, I don't know. But Zimmerman walked into the situation with a gun, knowing full well how to use it. The guy with the gun should be above reproach in his actions and I don't think, no matter how you cut it, we can say that about Zimmerman. He definitely made some mistakes in the way he handled this situation. Whether those mistakes equal a crime remains to be seen, I suppose.

Although it was within Z's rights to carry a gun, as a gun holder he should have taken more care in his actions. There's no denying that if Z stays in his car none of this happens.

Thats a huge issue I have with the Zimmer. While its in his rights to carry obviously I thought they taught you that you had to tighten up and have your crap together when you carried your piece. Getting out of a car to chase a black kid in the dark just reeks of poor logic and lack of safety.

Well I think that depends on his thought process when he was following.. Was he thinking I need to follow at a distance just so I can inform the police to where the kid went? Or was he trying to detain the kid..If he was only trying to keep a visual, I don't think having a firearm with him is unreasonable.

If he was trying to detain the kid carrying a firearm, there might be problems there.. But people using firearms to stop, detain, someone isn't uncommon.. I've been approached with a firearm a few times. I'm not saying its smart and reasonable, just that it's not uncommon..

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I think using the terms "approached", "concerned neighbor" and "adult" is why we're at loggerheads here.

Angry idiot in pursuit with a gun and his mind made up is more in line with the facts, as we know them. Zimmerman has done nothing to show he is an adult in the aftermath.

Potayto, patahto.

During the confrontation, the bolded is the only thing we're certain of, the rest is speculation..

Zimmerman was an idiot before the killing and remains one, he was angry on the 911 call and wasn't exactly chipper following The killing (unless you believe getting beat up by a kid he outweighed by 40lbs would put a smile on his face), and he did in fact pursue Martin. None of that is speculation. Saying he was getting roughed up enough to legitimately fear for his life would be speculation on your part. But I'll call it BS. He just doesn't seem credible, nor reasonable.

I can't believe people still doubt the fact that Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating his ###. Hasn't this been confirmed by multiple eyewitness accounts?Somebody punches you in the nose and knocks you down is one thing but if they jump on top of you and continue pounding it is perfectly reasonable for someone to be in fear for his life IMO.

And if someone is following you to the point where you fear for your life and try to subdue them, it's perfectly reasonable to make sure the guy is knocked out so he can't reach for a weapon, like a gun.

If someone is simply following you, at what point would you consider it wise to attack them (assuming that this is what happened of course).

At the point I felt that I had no other option. I don't know where/when that is, but it's a point that the pro-Z side seemingly fails to consider.

The problem is not considering that option, the problem is that the anti-zimmerman folks seem to think that's the only likely scenario.. Also proving that scenario is troublesome for the prosecution..

 

[mad sweeney]

I think using the terms "approached", "concerned neighbor" and "adult" is why we're at loggerheads here.

Angry idiot in pursuit with a gun and his mind made up is more in line with the facts, as we know them. Zimmerman has done nothing to show he is an adult in the aftermath.

Potayto, patahto.

During the confrontation, the bolded is the only thing we're certain of, the rest is speculation..

Zimmerman was an idiot before the killing and remains one, he was angry on the 911 call and wasn't exactly chipper following The killing (unless you believe getting beat up by a kid he outweighed by 40lbs would put a smile on his face), and he did in fact pursue Martin. None of that is speculation. Saying he was getting roughed up enough to legitimately fear for his life would be speculation on your part. But I'll call it BS. He just doesn't seem credible, nor reasonable.

I can't believe people still doubt the fact that Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating his ###. Hasn't this been confirmed by multiple eyewitness accounts?Somebody punches you in the nose and knocks you down is one thing but if they jump on top of you and continue pounding it is perfectly reasonable for someone to be in fear for his life IMO.

And if someone is following you to the point where you fear for your life and try to subdue them, it's perfectly reasonable to make sure the guy is knocked out so he can't reach for a weapon, like a gun.

How'd that reasoning work out in this case.. Doesn't seem so smart and reasonable to me..And there still is no proof that Zimmerman was following Trayvon to the point Trayvon was in fear for his life.

If Zimmerman chased Trayvon down and tried to detain him, and Trayvon then punched him, knocked him down, and then was holding him down thinking someone was coming to help, or to call the police for him.. That would be a legitimate reason for Trayvon to be on top.. Problem is, no one is here to testify on that scenario.. The Prosecution has criteria they have to meet. I think they're going to have a hard time meeting it..

Well, there's no proof Z was in fear for his life either other than the word of a man with several past incidents of violence and who has shown his willingness to decieve the authorities for his own protection. And when you get down to fear for your life, smart and reasonable go out the window. That's why it's called fear.As for holding him down, like I said, if TM feared for his life from this stalker, I think it's eminently reasonable to keep pounding til the follower is unconscious.