Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (4 Viewers)

[Jojo the circus boy]

Well, that marijuana evidence is important. After all, we all know how marijuana can make people violent.

we all know that people who sell drugs are the least violent people around.. And that teens that are involved with drugs and getting suspended from school, and carrying around stolen jewelry, etc are non violent types.. The violent ones are the ones who abstain from drugs and never get suspended from school, and wouldn't be in possession of stolen property..

I've known people who've sold a little pot, and I've known plenty of people who smoked it (myself included) and violence is not something I would associate with any of them, including the sellers. I've known plenty of people who were suspended from school, and I've known a few people who stole jewelry, and none of them were murderers.BUT- if you have a BLACK guy who carries around stolen jewelry and sells drugs, then that guy is likely to be a thug and a murderer. At least, that's what the stereotype says. And this is why this "evidence" should never be admitted- because it's inherently racist.

What? Take black out of it. If you have a guy stealing, smoking weed and getting into fights, he's probably not a person you'd want your kids hanging out with. For good reason.

I knew plenty of guys like that, and none of them were murderers.

So now we need to prove Martin was a murderer?

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Well, that marijuana evidence is important. After all, we all know how marijuana can make people violent.

we all know that people who sell drugs are the least violent people around.. And that teens that are involved with drugs and getting suspended from school, and carrying around stolen jewelry, etc are non violent types.. The violent ones are the ones who abstain from drugs and never get suspended from school, and wouldn't be in possession of stolen property..

I've known people who've sold a little pot, and I've known plenty of people who smoked it (myself included) and violence is not something I would associate with any of them, including the sellers. I've known plenty of people who were suspended from school, and I've known a few people who stole jewelry, and none of them were murderers. BUT- if you have a BLACK guy who carries around stolen jewelry and sells drugs, then that guy is likely to be a thug and a murderer. At least, that's what the stereotype says. And this is why this "evidence" should never be admitted- because it's inherently racist.

What? Take black out of it. If you have a guy stealing, smoking weed and getting into fights, he's probably not a person you'd want your kids hanging out with. For good reason.

I knew plenty of guys like that, and none of them were murderers.

We're talking about Trayvon here.. No one is calling him a murderer.. Nice strawman though..

You're claiming that Trayvon is less likely to attack someone because he smokes pot.. That's a ridiculous assertion..

 

[timschochet]

Well, that marijuana evidence is important. After all, we all know how marijuana can make people violent.

we all know that people who sell drugs are the least violent people around.. And that teens that are involved with drugs and getting suspended from school, and carrying around stolen jewelry, etc are non violent types.. The violent ones are the ones who abstain from drugs and never get suspended from school, and wouldn't be in possession of stolen property..

I've known people who've sold a little pot, and I've known plenty of people who smoked it (myself included) and violence is not something I would associate with any of them, including the sellers. I've known plenty of people who were suspended from school, and I've known a few people who stole jewelry, and none of them were murderers. BUT- if you have a BLACK guy who carries around stolen jewelry and sells drugs, then that guy is likely to be a thug and a murderer. At least, that's what the stereotype says. And this is why this "evidence" should never be admitted- because it's inherently racist.

and contemplates buying a gun with a friend, videotapes his buddies beating up a homeless guy, is known to be a fighter, referee fights etc... you left out some thug details.

It's funny to me that when the black guy "contemplates buying a gun with a friend", that makes him suspect in your eyes. But the white guy, who already has a gun, and uses it to kill in this situation, is innocent. Go figure.

 

[avoiding injuries]

Well, that marijuana evidence is important. After all, we all know how marijuana can make people violent.

we all know that people who sell drugs are the least violent people around.. And that teens that are involved with drugs and getting suspended from school, and carrying around stolen jewelry, etc are non violent types.. The violent ones are the ones who abstain from drugs and never get suspended from school, and wouldn't be in possession of stolen property..

I've known people who've sold a little pot, and I've known plenty of people who smoked it (myself included) and violence is not something I would associate with any of them, including the sellers. I've known plenty of people who were suspended from school, and I've known a few people who stole jewelry, and none of them were murderers. BUT- if you have a BLACK guy who carries around stolen jewelry and sells drugs, then that guy is likely to be a thug and a murderer. At least, that's what the stereotype says. And this is why this "evidence" should never be admitted- because it's inherently racist.

What? Take black out of it. If you have a guy stealing, smoking weed and getting into fights, he's probably not a person you'd want your kids hanging out with. For good reason.

I knew plenty of guys like that, and none of them were murderers.

I've known plenty of them too and they were some of my closest friends. I ended up doing drugs with them, getting arrested and my performance in school was dramatically affected. I was fortunate to go away for college and get out of the downward spiral. Again, people my parents did not want me hanging out with and people I wouldn't want my kids associating with. I'm not saying Martin was a murderer(i dont know if anyone is), but do you think a murderer starts with murder, or do they gradually work their way up?

 

[timschochet]

Well, that marijuana evidence is important. After all, we all know how marijuana can make people violent.

we all know that people who sell drugs are the least violent people around.. And that teens that are involved with drugs and getting suspended from school, and carrying around stolen jewelry, etc are non violent types.. The violent ones are the ones who abstain from drugs and never get suspended from school, and wouldn't be in possession of stolen property..

I've known people who've sold a little pot, and I've known plenty of people who smoked it (myself included) and violence is not something I would associate with any of them, including the sellers. I've known plenty of people who were suspended from school, and I've known a few people who stole jewelry, and none of them were murderers.BUT- if you have a BLACK guy who carries around stolen jewelry and sells drugs, then that guy is likely to be a thug and a murderer. At least, that's what the stereotype says. And this is why this "evidence" should never be admitted- because it's inherently racist.

What? Take black out of it. If you have a guy stealing, smoking weed and getting into fights, he's probably not a person you'd want your kids hanging out with. For good reason.

I knew plenty of guys like that, and none of them were murderers.

So now we need to prove Martin was a murderer?

You need to prove that Zimmerman believed his life was in danger, so basically yes.

 

[Witz]

Well, that marijuana evidence is important. After all, we all know how marijuana can make people violent.

we all know that people who sell drugs are the least violent people around.. And that teens that are involved with drugs and getting suspended from school, and carrying around stolen jewelry, etc are non violent types.. The violent ones are the ones who abstain from drugs and never get suspended from school, and wouldn't be in possession of stolen property..

I've known people who've sold a little pot, and I've known plenty of people who smoked it (myself included) and violence is not something I would associate with any of them, including the sellers. I've known plenty of people who were suspended from school, and I've known a few people who stole jewelry, and none of them were murderers. BUT- if you have a BLACK guy who carries around stolen jewelry and sells drugs, then that guy is likely to be a thug and a murderer. At least, that's what the stereotype says. And this is why this "evidence" should never be admitted- because it's inherently racist.

and contemplates buying a gun with a friend, videotapes his buddies beating up a homeless guy, is known to be a fighter, referee fights etc... you left out some thug details.

It's funny to me that when the black guy "contemplates buying a gun with a friend", that makes him suspect in your eyes. But the white guy, who already has a gun, and uses it to kill in this situation, is innocent. Go figure.

HUGE difference between licensed and unlicensed guns - but you already knew that.

 

[timschochet]

Well, that marijuana evidence is important. After all, we all know how marijuana can make people violent.

we all know that people who sell drugs are the least violent people around.. And that teens that are involved with drugs and getting suspended from school, and carrying around stolen jewelry, etc are non violent types.. The violent ones are the ones who abstain from drugs and never get suspended from school, and wouldn't be in possession of stolen property..

I've known people who've sold a little pot, and I've known plenty of people who smoked it (myself included) and violence is not something I would associate with any of them, including the sellers. I've known plenty of people who were suspended from school, and I've known a few people who stole jewelry, and none of them were murderers. BUT- if you have a BLACK guy who carries around stolen jewelry and sells drugs, then that guy is likely to be a thug and a murderer. At least, that's what the stereotype says. And this is why this "evidence" should never be admitted- because it's inherently racist.

What? Take black out of it. If you have a guy stealing, smoking weed and getting into fights, he's probably not a person you'd want your kids hanging out with. For good reason.

I knew plenty of guys like that, and none of them were murderers.

I've known plenty of them too and they were some of my closest friends. I ended up doing drugs with them, getting arrested and my performance in school was dramatically affected. I was fortunate to go away for college and get out of the downward spiral.Again, people my parents did not want me hanging out with and people I wouldn't want my kids associating with.I'm not saying Martin was a murderer(i dont know if anyone is), but do you think a murderer starts with murder, or do they gradually work their way up?

What I'm saying is that all this stuff is being brought up in order for people to make the assumption that Trayvon Martin attacked Zimmerman and tried to kill Zimmerman (or at least, Zimmerman thought so.) I think it's both absurd and inherently racist to make such a conclusion based on what we know about Trayvon Martin.

 

[timschochet]

Well, that marijuana evidence is important. After all, we all know how marijuana can make people violent.

we all know that people who sell drugs are the least violent people around.. And that teens that are involved with drugs and getting suspended from school, and carrying around stolen jewelry, etc are non violent types.. The violent ones are the ones who abstain from drugs and never get suspended from school, and wouldn't be in possession of stolen property..

I've known people who've sold a little pot, and I've known plenty of people who smoked it (myself included) and violence is not something I would associate with any of them, including the sellers. I've known plenty of people who were suspended from school, and I've known a few people who stole jewelry, and none of them were murderers. BUT- if you have a BLACK guy who carries around stolen jewelry and sells drugs, then that guy is likely to be a thug and a murderer. At least, that's what the stereotype says. And this is why this "evidence" should never be admitted- because it's inherently racist.

and contemplates buying a gun with a friend, videotapes his buddies beating up a homeless guy, is known to be a fighter, referee fights etc... you left out some thug details.

It's funny to me that when the black guy "contemplates buying a gun with a friend", that makes him suspect in your eyes. But the white guy, who already has a gun, and uses it to kill in this situation, is innocent. Go figure.

HUGE difference between licensed and unlicensed guns - but you already knew that.

Not according to NRA supporters. Are we talking about private transfers?

 

[Witz]

Well, that marijuana evidence is important. After all, we all know how marijuana can make people violent.

we all know that people who sell drugs are the least violent people around.. And that teens that are involved with drugs and getting suspended from school, and carrying around stolen jewelry, etc are non violent types.. The violent ones are the ones who abstain from drugs and never get suspended from school, and wouldn't be in possession of stolen property..

I've known people who've sold a little pot, and I've known plenty of people who smoked it (myself included) and violence is not something I would associate with any of them, including the sellers. I've known plenty of people who were suspended from school, and I've known a few people who stole jewelry, and none of them were murderers. BUT- if you have a BLACK guy who carries around stolen jewelry and sells drugs, then that guy is likely to be a thug and a murderer. At least, that's what the stereotype says. And this is why this "evidence" should never be admitted- because it's inherently racist.

and contemplates buying a gun with a friend, videotapes his buddies beating up a homeless guy, is known to be a fighter, referee fights etc... you left out some thug details.

It's funny to me that when the black guy "contemplates buying a gun with a friend", that makes him suspect in your eyes. But the white guy, who already has a gun, and uses it to kill in this situation, is innocent. Go figure.

HUGE difference between licensed and unlicensed guns - but you already knew that.

Not according to NRA supporters. Are we talking about private transfers?

So your contention is that Martin was planning on performing a legal private transfer? Going halfsies on a gun with a friend?

 

[Jackstraw]

Why are you talking about things that aren't evidence?

Evidence:

Zimmerman initiated the confrontation, and by his own phone activity/reported location pursued Martin for upwards of five minutes. Where Martin decided to go during this time is irrelevant. Much to the shock of white people everywhere black teenagers are afforded the same rights as everyone else, and Martin was allowed to walk wherever he wanted to.

Zimmerman eventually pursued him into the courtyard where a fight occurred. This happened after Zimmerman was told by the police that they didn't need him to continue his pursuit of Martin.

There's no evidence that Martin was doing anything other than making a trip to the corner store until after he'd been pursued for at least five minutes. Whatever occurred in the courtyard was a result of that pursuit.

The bolded is not evidence.. It's your supposition. We have no evidence that says Zimmerman confronted Trayvon. The timeline would suggest that Trayvon actually came back, or waited for Zimmerman. Why would he do that if not for an intent to confront Zimmerman?

And the red is just plain ignorant. When someone doesn't agree with you in regards to a situation that includes a black person you call them racist?

Zimmermann did follow Trayvon, but that isn't illegal, and in no way legally justifies Trayvon attacking Zimmerman. Maybe Trayvon didn't attack him, but we have no evidence to the contrary

Furthermore, regardless of who started the confrontation, You as an American citizen have legal rights. One is the right to defend yourself with or without a pistol, if you feel your life is in danger or you're in fear of great bodily harm. There is evidence in the way of a witness, that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman in a struggle at the very least, and more likely pummeling him. And evidence in the way of cuts on his head and what may be a broken nose to prove Trayvon did some damage. It's not a far stretch to believe Zimmerman may have been afraid. It was dark, someone he didn't know, who he thought was a bad guy, who was bigger (taller) than him was on top of him, intent on hurting him, and had already done some damage...

I'm not calling you racist but it's weird how nobody ever mentions the black guy had a right to fear for his life and defend himself. But the guy who was doing the initial following and essentially started the confrontation totally had the right to fear for his life and defend himself.....because....WELL HE JUST DID!

They could have both had a right to defend themselves with lethal force.. They could have both been in fear for their lives or bodily harm. If Trayvon would have wrestled the gun away from Zimmerman and shot him, that could be a legitimate self defense claim as well..

Best argument for not carrying guns around I've ever heard. No guns here and we would have had a fistfight at best. Actually Zimmerman wouldn't be stalking ERRRR approaching random black guy at night.

WHY do we need so dang many guns? It instantly escalates any altercation to a potential life and death scenario. Stand your ground in particular has been horrible for Florida.

 

[avoiding injuries]

If we are to believe what Zimmerman said, he did not know anything about Martin. He just knew there was someone on top of him who just broke his nose and was slamming his head into the concrete. If that was me, I'd probably fear for my life. Then again, I do my best not to put myself in confrontational situations anymore.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

and contemplates buying a gun with a friend, videotapes his buddies beating up a homeless guy, is known to be a fighter, referee fights etc... you left out some thug details.

It's funny to me that when the black guy "contemplates buying a gun with a friend", that makes him suspect in your eyes. But the white guy, who already has a gun, and uses it to kill in this situation, is innocent. Go figure.

HUGE difference between licensed and unlicensed guns - but you already knew that.

Also a huge difference to legally buy a gun that you have a concealed carry license to protect you and your family that you have training for and illegally buying a gun to protect your drugs and do gangsta activities with it.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Well, that marijuana evidence is important. After all, we all know how marijuana can make people violent.

we all know that people who sell drugs are the least violent people around.. And that teens that are involved with drugs and getting suspended from school, and carrying around stolen jewelry, etc are non violent types.. The violent ones are the ones who abstain from drugs and never get suspended from school, and wouldn't be in possession of stolen property..

I've known people who've sold a little pot, and I've known plenty of people who smoked it (myself included) and violence is not something I would associate with any of them, including the sellers. I've known plenty of people who were suspended from school, and I've known a few people who stole jewelry, and none of them were murderers.BUT- if you have a BLACK guy who carries around stolen jewelry and sells drugs, then that guy is likely to be a thug and a murderer. At least, that's what the stereotype says. And this is why this "evidence" should never be admitted- because it's inherently racist.

What? Take black out of it. If you have a guy stealing, smoking weed and getting into fights, he's probably not a person you'd want your kids hanging out with. For good reason.

I knew plenty of guys like that, and none of them were murderers.

So now we need to prove Martin was a murderer?

You need to prove that Zimmerman believed his life was in danger, so basically yes.

With a witness that saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman, and pictures of injuries to Zimmerman after the altercation?

 

[timschochet]

If we are to believe what Zimmerman said, he did not know anything about Martin. He just knew there was someone on top of him who just broke his nose and was slamming his head into the concrete. If that was me, I'd probably fear for my life. Then again, I do my best not to put myself in confrontational situations anymore.

But why IS Martin on top of him, slamming his head into the concrete?

This is the part of the story which, for me at least, makes Zimmerman so difficult to believe. Here we have two guys who don't know each other. What we do know is that Zimmerman was suspicious of Martin and followed Martin. What we do know is that Zimmerman was armed with a gun and Martin wasn't. Yet we are supposed to believe that it was Martin who initiated the fight, and that it was Martin who was trying to bash Zimmerman's brains in, and only when Zimmerman feared for his life did he reveal the fact that he had a gun and then killed Martin in order to save his own life.

I suppose it's possible. Anything's possible. But for people to believe that this scenario is likely- that Martin would confront some dude he didn't know, wasn't suspicious of, and pound him, while all the time Zimmerman is concealing the fact that he had a gun until forced to use it- I just don't get how anyone could believe that this is probable, unless you WANT to believe it.

 

[timschochet]

and contemplates buying a gun with a friend, videotapes his buddies beating up a homeless guy, is known to be a fighter, referee fights etc... you left out some thug details.

It's funny to me that when the black guy "contemplates buying a gun with a friend", that makes him suspect in your eyes. But the white guy, who already has a gun, and uses it to kill in this situation, is innocent. Go figure.

HUGE difference between licensed and unlicensed guns - but you already knew that.

Also a huge difference to legally buy a gun that you have a concealed carry license to protect you and your family that you have training for and illegally buying a gun to protect your drugs and do gangsta activities with it.

Because the first is what white people do with guns, and the second is what black people do with guns.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Well, that marijuana evidence is important. After all, we all know how marijuana can make people violent.

we all know that people who sell drugs are the least violent people around.. And that teens that are involved with drugs and getting suspended from school, and carrying around stolen jewelry, etc are non violent types.. The violent ones are the ones who abstain from drugs and never get suspended from school, and wouldn't be in possession of stolen property..

I've known people who've sold a little pot, and I've known plenty of people who smoked it (myself included) and violence is not something I would associate with any of them, including the sellers. I've known plenty of people who were suspended from school, and I've known a few people who stole jewelry, and none of them were murderers. BUT- if you have a BLACK guy who carries around stolen jewelry and sells drugs, then that guy is likely to be a thug and a murderer. At least, that's what the stereotype says. And this is why this "evidence" should never be admitted- because it's inherently racist.

What? Take black out of it. If you have a guy stealing, smoking weed and getting into fights, he's probably not a person you'd want your kids hanging out with. For good reason.

I knew plenty of guys like that, and none of them were murderers.

I've known plenty of them too and they were some of my closest friends. I ended up doing drugs with them, getting arrested and my performance in school was dramatically affected. I was fortunate to go away for college and get out of the downward spiral.Again, people my parents did not want me hanging out with and people I wouldn't want my kids associating with.I'm not saying Martin was a murderer(i dont know if anyone is), but do you think a murderer starts with murder, or do they gradually work their way up?

What I'm saying is that all this stuff is being brought up in order for people to make the assumption that Trayvon Martin attacked Zimmerman and tried to kill Zimmerman (or at least, Zimmerman thought so.) I think it's both absurd and inherently racist to make such a conclusion based on what we know about Trayvon Martin.

(same boring racist narrative per Tim)

If the kid was white, and the situation was the same, I'd feel the same

 

[timschochet]

Well, that marijuana evidence is important. After all, we all know how marijuana can make people violent.

we all know that people who sell drugs are the least violent people around.. And that teens that are involved with drugs and getting suspended from school, and carrying around stolen jewelry, etc are non violent types.. The violent ones are the ones who abstain from drugs and never get suspended from school, and wouldn't be in possession of stolen property..

I've known people who've sold a little pot, and I've known plenty of people who smoked it (myself included) and violence is not something I would associate with any of them, including the sellers. I've known plenty of people who were suspended from school, and I've known a few people who stole jewelry, and none of them were murderers. BUT- if you have a BLACK guy who carries around stolen jewelry and sells drugs, then that guy is likely to be a thug and a murderer. At least, that's what the stereotype says. And this is why this "evidence" should never be admitted- because it's inherently racist.

What? Take black out of it. If you have a guy stealing, smoking weed and getting into fights, he's probably not a person you'd want your kids hanging out with. For good reason.

I knew plenty of guys like that, and none of them were murderers.

I've known plenty of them too and they were some of my closest friends. I ended up doing drugs with them, getting arrested and my performance in school was dramatically affected. I was fortunate to go away for college and get out of the downward spiral.Again, people my parents did not want me hanging out with and people I wouldn't want my kids associating with.I'm not saying Martin was a murderer(i dont know if anyone is), but do you think a murderer starts with murder, or do they gradually work their way up?

What I'm saying is that all this stuff is being brought up in order for people to make the assumption that Trayvon Martin attacked Zimmerman and tried to kill Zimmerman (or at least, Zimmerman thought so.) I think it's both absurd and inherently racist to make such a conclusion based on what we know about Trayvon Martin.

(same boring racist narrative per Tim)

If the kid was white, and the situation was the same, I'd feel the same

You very well might. But I doubt all of these racist stereotypes would come into play in that situation.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Well, that marijuana evidence is important. After all, we all know how marijuana can make people violent.

we all know that people who sell drugs are the least violent people around.. And that teens that are involved with drugs and getting suspended from school, and carrying around stolen jewelry, etc are non violent types.. The violent ones are the ones who abstain from drugs and never get suspended from school, and wouldn't be in possession of stolen property..

I've known people who've sold a little pot, and I've known plenty of people who smoked it (myself included) and violence is not something I would associate with any of them, including the sellers. I've known plenty of people who were suspended from school, and I've known a few people who stole jewelry, and none of them were murderers.BUT- if you have a BLACK guy who carries around stolen jewelry and sells drugs, then that guy is likely to be a thug and a murderer. At least, that's what the stereotype says. And this is why this "evidence" should never be admitted- because it's inherently racist.

and contemplates buying a gun with a friend, videotapes his buddies beating up a homeless guy, is known to be a fighter, referee fights etc... you left out some thug details.

It's funny to me that when the black guy "contemplates buying a gun with a friend", that makes him suspect in your eyes. But the white guy, who already has a gun, and uses it to kill in this situation, is innocent. Go figure.

HUGE difference between licensed and unlicensed guns - but you already knew that.

Not according to NRA supporters. Are we talking about private transfers?

Nice Try

 

[Carolina Hustler]

If we are to believe what Zimmerman said, he did not know anything about Martin. He just knew there was someone on top of him who just broke his nose and was slamming his head into the concrete. If that was me, I'd probably fear for my life. Then again, I do my best not to put myself in confrontational situations anymore.

But why IS Martin on top of him, slamming his head into the concrete?

This is the part of the story which, for me at least, makes Zimmerman so difficult to believe. Here we have two guys who don't know each other. What we do know is that Zimmerman was suspicious of Martin and followed Martin. What we do know is that Zimmerman was armed with a gun and Martin wasn't. Yet we are supposed to believe that it was Martin who initiated the fight, and that it was Martin who was trying to bash Zimmerman's brains in, and only when Zimmerman feared for his life did he reveal the fact that he had a gun and then killed Martin in order to save his own life.

I suppose it's possible. Anything's possible. But for people to believe that this scenario is likely- that Martin would confront some dude he didn't know, wasn't suspicious of, and pound him, while all the time Zimmerman is concealing the fact that he had a gun until forced to use it- I just don't get how anyone could believe that this is probable, unless you WANT to believe it.

You prefer to assume that Zimmerman approached Trayvon with gun drawn and Trayvon attacked someone who had a gun pointed at them?

Not likely..

 

[Carolina Hustler]

and contemplates buying a gun with a friend, videotapes his buddies beating up a homeless guy, is known to be a fighter, referee fights etc... you left out some thug details.

It's funny to me that when the black guy "contemplates buying a gun with a friend", that makes him suspect in your eyes. But the white guy, who already has a gun, and uses it to kill in this situation, is innocent. Go figure.

HUGE difference between licensed and unlicensed guns - but you already knew that.

Also a huge difference to legally buy a gun that you have a concealed carry license to protect you and your family that you have training for and illegally buying a gun to protect your drugs and do gangsta activities with it.

Because the first is what white people do with guns, and the second is what black people do with guns.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Well, that marijuana evidence is important. After all, we all know how marijuana can make people violent.

we all know that people who sell drugs are the least violent people around.. And that teens that are involved with drugs and getting suspended from school, and carrying around stolen jewelry, etc are non violent types.. The violent ones are the ones who abstain from drugs and never get suspended from school, and wouldn't be in possession of stolen property..

I've known people who've sold a little pot, and I've known plenty of people who smoked it (myself included) and violence is not something I would associate with any of them, including the sellers. I've known plenty of people who were suspended from school, and I've known a few people who stole jewelry, and none of them were murderers. BUT- if you have a BLACK guy who carries around stolen jewelry and sells drugs, then that guy is likely to be a thug and a murderer. At least, that's what the stereotype says. And this is why this "evidence" should never be admitted- because it's inherently racist.

What? Take black out of it. If you have a guy stealing, smoking weed and getting into fights, he's probably not a person you'd want your kids hanging out with. For good reason.

I knew plenty of guys like that, and none of them were murderers.

I've known plenty of them too and they were some of my closest friends. I ended up doing drugs with them, getting arrested and my performance in school was dramatically affected. I was fortunate to go away for college and get out of the downward spiral.Again, people my parents did not want me hanging out with and people I wouldn't want my kids associating with.I'm not saying Martin was a murderer(i dont know if anyone is), but do you think a murderer starts with murder, or do they gradually work their way up?

What I'm saying is that all this stuff is being brought up in order for people to make the assumption that Trayvon Martin attacked Zimmerman and tried to kill Zimmerman (or at least, Zimmerman thought so.) I think it's both absurd and inherently racist to make such a conclusion based on what we know about Trayvon Martin.

(same boring racist narrative per Tim)

If the kid was white, and the situation was the same, I'd feel the same

You very well might. But I doubt all of these racist stereotypes would come into play in that situation.

The ones in your head?

 

[timschochet]

Gotta run guys. Enjoying the debate as usual. With the trial coming up quickly, we'll see what happens. If I am wrong about stuff, I will certainly admit it.

Also, Jojo and Carolina- I want to stress that though I consider some of your arguments to be of a racist nature (and I have pointed out which ones)- I don't consider YOU guys to be racist, simply because you're making those arguments. It's a small distinction but an important one, so I hope no one takes personal offense at anything I have written, no matter how much you may disagree with it.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

and contemplates buying a gun with a friend, videotapes his buddies beating up a homeless guy, is known to be a fighter, referee fights etc... you left out some thug details.

It's funny to me that when the black guy "contemplates buying a gun with a friend", that makes him suspect in your eyes. But the white guy, who already has a gun, and uses it to kill in this situation, is innocent. Go figure.

HUGE difference between licensed and unlicensed guns - but you already knew that.

Also a huge difference to legally buy a gun that you have a concealed carry license to protect you and your family that you have training for and illegally buying a gun to protect your drugs and do gangsta activities with it.

"Because the first is what white people do with guns, and the second is what black people do with guns."-Al Sharpton

FTFY

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Gotta run guys. Enjoying the debate as usual. With the trial coming up quickly, we'll see what happens. If I am wrong about stuff, I will certainly admit it. Also, Jojo and Carolina- I want to stress that though I consider some of your arguments to be of a racist nature (and I have pointed out which ones)- I don't consider YOU guys to be racist, simply because you're making those arguments. It's a small distinction but an important one, so I hope no one takes personal offense at anything I have written, no matter how much you may disagree with it.

Sherman Ware

 

[kentric]

If we are to believe what Zimmerman said, he did not know anything about Martin. He just knew there was someone on top of him who just broke his nose and was slamming his head into the concrete. If that was me, I'd probably fear for my life. Then again, I do my best not to put myself in confrontational situations anymore.

But why IS Martin on top of him, slamming his head into the concrete?

This is the part of the story which, for me at least, makes Zimmerman so difficult to believe. Here we have two guys who don't know each other. What we do know is that Zimmerman was suspicious of Martin and followed Martin. What we do know is that Zimmerman was armed with a gun and Martin wasn't. Yet we are supposed to believe that it was Martin who initiated the fight, and that it was Martin who was trying to bash Zimmerman's brains in, and only when Zimmerman feared for his life did he reveal the fact that he had a gun and then killed Martin in order to save his own life.

I suppose it's possible. Anything's possible. But for people to believe that this scenario is likely- that Martin would confront some dude he didn't know, wasn't suspicious of, and pound him, while all the time Zimmerman is concealing the fact that he had a gun until forced to use it- I just don't get how anyone could believe that this is probable, unless you WANT to believe it.

You find it difficult to believe that Martin was trying to bash Z's brains in? You must have seen the pics of Z's head. Its pretty clear he was on the wrong end of a wuppin'.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

I'm not gonna guarantee conviction because anything can happen. But I'm fairly sure he's going down. Dude is so obviously a lying piece of #### there's no way his story holds up in court.

Dude may be a lying piece of trash, but there is zero evidence to convict him. There was a reason charges where not initially pressed. Nothing has changed. It is a crappy case which only went to trial because of political uproar.

no charges were filed because he claimed SYG (he still should have had to prove that in court) ....now he isnt...i wonder how that will work out

Media claimed SYG

He claimed self defense... Plus there was a witness that saw Trayvon on top of him, lending credence to the self defense claim..

The Sanford P.D. report did actually categorize the incident as “Homicide-Negligent Manslaughter-Unneccessary Killing to Prevent Unlawful Act.” No prosecutor ever came to the scene of the crime, and the first detective to question Zimmerman after the shooting was a narcotics officer rather than a homicide detective.

It is not uncommon for prosecutors to wait a few days before they make an arrest, because they would want to have enough evidence to charge a suspect with a crime. It was initially reported that Sanford police did not arrest Zimmerman due to lack of probable cause under Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” statute. But the Herald report suggests that the department could not move forward after sending the case to Wolfinger’s office and waiting for him to make a determination.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

what an angel

In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area "hiding and being suspicious." Then he said he saw Trayvon mark up a door with "WTF" - an acronym for "what the ####." The officer said he found Trayvon the next day and went through his book back in search of the graffiti marker.

Instead the officer reported he found women's jewelry and a screwdriver that he described as a burglary tool," according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald. Word of the incident came as the family's lawyer acknowledged that the boy was suspended in February for getting caught with an empty bag with traces of marijuana, which he called "irrelevant" and an attempt to demonize a victim.

Trayvon's backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.

Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.

"Martin replied it's not mine. A friend gave it to me," he responded, according to the report.

I'm sure it was just one big misunderstanding, the screwdriver was probably for shop class where he used it to make the jewelry to be used for his upcoming wedding with his girlfriend. He was so considerate he made extra wedding bands in case she loses one.More details of the cover up

>It was only when the M-DSPD Internal Affairs investigation kicked in, and six officers gave sworn affidavits, the manipulative scheme to improve criminal statistics within the School System were identified openly.

School Superintendent Alberto Carvalho gave his hire, Police Chief Hurley, instructions to reduce the criminal behavior of young black males. The chosen strategy between them, to insure optical success, was to stop using the Criminal Justice System to punish black student behavior. Instead they instructed the School Resource Officers to use school discipline in place of criminal justice.

...and then you have this incident

In court Tuesday, O'Mara mentioned for the first time new pieces of evidence damaging to Trayvon's reputation: that the teenager had shot video of his buddies beating up a homeless man; that Trayvon had served as referee in another fight; and that he had won one fight after punching his opponent in the nose.

Trayvon's mother, Sybrina Fulton, was at Tuesday's hearing, but her attorneys would not let her answer questions.

Asked about Trayvon shooting video of his friends beating a homeless man, family attorney Darryl Parks said that was irrelevant.

...just your typical teenager, right?

stop with the witch hunt and misinformation.

Martin had been suspended from school at the time of his death, his third disciplinary suspension of the year. One suspension was for tardiness. Another suspension was for graffiti, when Martin was observed by a security camera in a restricted area of the school marking up a door with "W.T.F." When he was later searched by a Miami-Dade School Police Department officer, looking for the graffiti marker, the officer found several pieces of women's jewelry in his backpack, which Martin said were not his, stating a friend had given them to him. A screwdriver was also found, which was described by the school police investigator as a burglary tool. The jewelry was impounded and given to the police, but no evidence ever surfaced to indicate that the jewelry was stolen. Martin's third suspension involved a marijuana pipe, and an empty bag containing marijuana residue. Martin was not charged with any crime related to these incidents and did not have a juvenile record

 

[Carolina Hustler]

stop with the witch hunt and misinformation.

Martin had been suspended from school at the time of his death, his third disciplinary suspension of the year. One suspension was for tardiness. Another suspension was for graffiti, when Martin was observed by a security camera in a restricted area of the school marking up a door with "W.T.F." When he was later searched by a Miami-Dade School Police Department officer, looking for the graffiti marker, the officer found several pieces of women's jewelry in his backpack, which Martin said were not his, stating a friend had given them to him. A screwdriver was also found, which was described by the school police investigator as a burglary tool. The jewelry was impounded and given to the police, but no evidence ever surfaced to indicate that the jewelry was stolen. Martin's third suspension involved a marijuana pipe, and an empty bag containing marijuana residue. Martin was not charged with any crime related to these incidents and did not have a juvenile record

Are you suggesting he was in possession of that jewelry legitimately?

Any kid carrying gold and diamond jewelry including wedding bands etc in school has most likely come by it illegitimately, and it's most likely stolen.

And if it is legitimate, then no one is going to let something they rightfully own, especially diamond and gold jewelry be taken from them and not returned..

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I'm not gonna guarantee conviction because anything can happen. But I'm fairly sure he's going down. Dude is so obviously a lying piece of #### there's no way his story holds up in court.

Dude may be a lying piece of trash, but there is zero evidence to convict him. There was a reason charges where not initially pressed. Nothing has changed. It is a crappy case which only went to trial because of political uproar.

no charges were filed because he claimed SYG (he still should have had to prove that in court) ....now he isnt...i wonder how that will work out

Media claimed SYG

He claimed self defense... Plus there was a witness that saw Trayvon on top of him, lending credence to the self defense claim..

The Sanford P.D. report did actually categorize the incident as “Homicide-Negligent Manslaughter-Unneccessary Killing to Prevent Unlawful Act.” No prosecutor ever came to the scene of the crime, and the first detective to question Zimmerman after the shooting was a narcotics officer rather than a homicide detective.

It is not uncommon for prosecutors to wait a few days before they make an arrest, because they would want to have enough evidence to charge a suspect with a crime. It was initially reported that Sanford police did not arrest Zimmerman due to lack of probable cause under Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” statute. But the Herald report suggests that the department could not move forward after sending the case to Wolfinger’s office and waiting for him to make a determination.

So he didn't claim SYG.. The media claims SYG is the reason why he wasn't arrested.. Big difference..

Never mind this is the same media outlet that got things so drastically wrong from the beginning..

 

[Gawain]

I would like some action from tim on his riot prediction. If Zimmerman walks, arrests will be greater than the 385 arrests after the 89 Miami race riots.

Here's a chance to make some of that cash back that Mr Monsanto won't pay.

 

[timschochet]

I would like some action from tim on his riot prediction. If Zimmerman walks, arrests will be greater than the 385 arrests after the 89 Miami race riots. Here's a chance to make some of that cash back that Mr Monsanto won't pay.

I don't believe Zimmerman will walk but if he does you're on. $50?

 

[Gawain]

I would like some action from tim on his riot prediction. If Zimmerman walks, arrests will be greater than the 385 arrests after the 89 Miami race riots. Here's a chance to make some of that cash back that Mr Monsanto won't pay.

I don't believe Zimmerman will walk but if he does you're on. $50?

Sounds good.

If I win, I'd like to be paid by meeting you on the Brooklyn Bridge, while you wear a fedora, carry a sprig of Holly and hum "Master of the House" from Les Mis.

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

what an angel

In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area "hiding and being suspicious." Then he said he saw Trayvon mark up a door with "WTF" - an acronym for "what the ####." The officer said he found Trayvon the next day and went through his book back in search of the graffiti marker.

Instead the officer reported he found women's jewelry and a screwdriver that he described as a burglary tool," according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald. Word of the incident came as the family's lawyer acknowledged that the boy was suspended in February for getting caught with an empty bag with traces of marijuana, which he called "irrelevant" and an attempt to demonize a victim.

Trayvon's backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.

Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.

"Martin replied it's not mine. A friend gave it to me," he responded, according to the report.

I'm sure it was just one big misunderstanding, the screwdriver was probably for shop class where he used it to make the jewelry to be used for his upcoming wedding with his girlfriend. He was so considerate he made extra wedding bands in case she loses one.More details of the cover up

>

It was only when the M-DSPD Internal Affairs investigation kicked in, and six officers gave sworn affidavits, the manipulative scheme to improve criminal statistics within the School System were identified openly.

School Superintendent Alberto Carvalho gave his hire, Police Chief Hurley, instructions to reduce the criminal behavior of young black males. The chosen strategy between them, to insure optical success, was to stop using the Criminal Justice System to punish black student behavior. Instead they instructed the School Resource Officers to use school discipline in place of criminal justice.

...and then you have this incident

In court Tuesday, O'Mara mentioned for the first time new pieces of evidence damaging to Trayvon's reputation: that the teenager had shot video of his buddies beating up a homeless man; that Trayvon had served as referee in another fight; and that he had won one fight after punching his opponent in the nose.

Trayvon's mother, Sybrina Fulton, was at Tuesday's hearing, but her attorneys would not let her answer questions.

Asked about Trayvon shooting video of his friends beating a homeless man, family attorney Darryl Parks said that was irrelevant.

...just your typical teenager, right?

stop with the witch hunt and misinformation.Martin had been suspended from school at the time of his death, his third disciplinary suspension of the year. One suspension was for tardiness. Another suspension was for graffiti, when Martin was observed by a security camera in a restricted area of the school marking up a door with "W.T.F." When he was later searched by a Miami-Dade School Police Department officer, looking for the graffiti marker, the officer found several pieces of women's jewelry in his backpack, which Martin said were not his, stating a friend had given them to him. A screwdriver was also found, which was described by the school police investigator as a burglary tool. The jewelry was impounded and given to the police, but no evidence ever surfaced to indicate that the jewelry was stolen. Martin's third suspension involved a marijuana pipe, and an empty bag containing marijuana residue. Martin was not charged with any crime related to these incidents and did not have a juvenile record

does "click that link" sound familiar?

On October 21st 2011 a burglary took place a few blocks from Krop Senior High School where Trayvon Martin attended. The stolen property outlined in the Miami-Dade Police Report (PD111021-422483) matches the descriptive presented by SRO Dunn in his School Police report 2011-11477.

However, there was ONE big issue. SRO Dunn never filed a criminal report, nor opened a criminal investigation, surrounding the stolen jewelry. Instead, and as a result of pressure from M-DSPD Chief Hurley to avoid criminal reports for black male students, Dunn wrote up the jewelry as “found items”, and transferred them, along with the burglary tool, to the Miami-Dade Police property room where they sat on a shelf unassigned to anyone for investigation.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

I would like some action from tim on his riot prediction. If Zimmerman walks, arrests will be greater than the 385 arrests after the 89 Miami race riots. Here's a chance to make some of that cash back that Mr Monsanto won't pay.

I don't believe Zimmerman will walk but if he does you're on. $50?

Sounds good.

If I win, I'd like to be paid by meeting you on the Brooklyn Bridge, while you wear a fedora, carry a sprig of Holly and hum "Master of the House" from Les Mis.

lol

 

[timschochet]

I would like some action from tim on his riot prediction. If Zimmerman walks, arrests will be greater than the 385 arrests after the 89 Miami race riots. Here's a chance to make some of that cash back that Mr Monsanto won't pay.

I don't believe Zimmerman will walk but if he does you're on. $50?

Sounds good. If I win, I'd like to be paid by meeting you on the Brooklyn Bridge, while you wear a fedora, carry a sprig of Holly and hum "Master of the House" from Les Mis.

Nowhere near Brooklyn, so that won't work. However I hum Master of the House all the time.Seriously we should both hope I win this particular bet. Nobody wants a riot.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

On October 21st 2011 a burglary took place a few blocks from Krop Senior High School where Trayvon Martin attended. The stolen property outlined in the Miami-Dade Police Report (PD111021-422483) matches the descriptive presented by SRO Dunn in his School Police report 2011-11477.

this is new information for me... but, just as i suspected..

 

[avoiding injuries]

I would like some action from tim on his riot prediction. If Zimmerman walks, arrests will be greater than the 385 arrests after the 89 Miami race riots. Here's a chance to make some of that cash back that Mr Monsanto won't pay.

I don't believe Zimmerman will walk but if he does you're on. $50?

Sounds good. If I win, I'd like to be paid by meeting you on the Brooklyn Bridge, while you wear a fedora, carry a sprig of Holly and hum "Master of the House" from Les Mis.

Nowhere near Brooklyn, so that won't work. However I hum Master of the House all the time.Seriously we should both hope I win this particular bet. Nobody wants a riot.

I don't know, I seem to enjoy a good race riot every now and then. It's due. j/k

 

[Christo]

Why are you talking about things that aren't evidence?Evidence:Zimmerman initiated the confrontation, and by his own phone activity/reported location pursued Martin for upwards of five minutes. Where Martin decided to go during this time is irrelevant. Much to the shock of white people everywhere black teenagers are afforded the same rights as everyone else, and Martin was allowed to walk wherever he wanted to.Zimmerman eventually pursued him into the courtyard where a fight occurred. This happened after Zimmerman was told by the police that they didn't need him to continue his pursuit of Martin.There's no evidence that Martin was doing anything other than making a trip to the corner store until after he'd been pursued for at least five minutes. Whatever occurred in the courtyard was a result of that pursuit.

None of that proves murder.

No it doesn't. But it's suggestive.

And as you yourself have pointed out in this thread several times, the fact that Zimmerman shot and killed Martin is not in question. It was either murder or self-defense. Zimmerman's claim of self-defense is an affirmative defense, and therefore Zimmerman has to prove it, not the other way around. Without Zimmerman's testimony, the prosecution can simply point to the evidence that Zimmerman fired his gun and shot and killed Martin, and that is enough. Zimmerman has to contradict the idea that it was murder- he has to take the stand and face cross-examination. Can he do this credibly? I doubt it.

Wrong. Beyond a reasonable doubt is always the burden placed upon the prosecution in a criminal trial. All Zimmerman has to do is provide some evidence that he acted in self defense. The prosecution then has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it wasn't self defense.

 

[tdoss]

Why are you talking about things that aren't evidence?

Evidence:

Zimmerman initiated the confrontation, and by his own phone activity/reported location pursued Martin for upwards of five minutes. Where Martin decided to go during this time is irrelevant. Much to the shock of white people everywhere black teenagers are afforded the same rights as everyone else, and Martin was allowed to walk wherever he wanted to.

Zimmerman eventually pursued him into the courtyard where a fight occurred. This happened after Zimmerman was told by the police that they didn't need him to continue his pursuit of Martin.

There's no evidence that Martin was doing anything other than making a trip to the corner store until after he'd been pursued for at least five minutes. Whatever occurred in the courtyard was a result of that pursuit.

The bolded is not evidence.. It's your supposition. We have no evidence that says Zimmerman confronted Trayvon. The timeline would suggest that Trayvon actually came back, or waited for Zimmerman. Why would he do that if not for an intent to confront Zimmerman?

And the red is just plain ignorant. When someone doesn't agree with you in regards to a situation that includes a black person you call them racist?

Zimmermann did follow Trayvon, but that isn't illegal, and in no way legally justifies Trayvon attacking Zimmerman. Maybe Trayvon didn't attack him, but we have no evidence to the contrary

Furthermore, regardless of who started the confrontation, You as an American citizen have legal rights. One is the right to defend yourself with or without a pistol, if you feel your life is in danger or you're in fear of great bodily harm. There is evidence in the way of a witness, that Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman in a struggle at the very least, and more likely pummeling him. And evidence in the way of cuts on his head and what may be a broken nose to prove Trayvon did some damage. It's not a far stretch to believe Zimmerman may have been afraid. It was dark, someone he didn't know, who he thought was a bad guy, who was bigger (taller) than him was on top of him, intent on hurting him, and had already done some damage...

I'm not calling you racist but it's weird how nobody ever mentions the black guy had a right to fear for his life and defend himself. But the guy who was doing the initial following and essentially started the confrontation totally had the right to fear for his life and defend himself.....because....WELL HE JUST DID!

They could have both had a right to defend themselves with lethal force.. They could have both been in fear for their lives or bodily harm. If Trayvon would have wrestled the gun away from Zimmerman and shot him, that could be a legitimate self defense claim as well..

Best argument for not carrying guns around I've ever heard. No guns here and we would have had a fistfight at best. Actually Zimmerman wouldn't be stalking ERRRR approaching random black guy at night.

WHY do we need so dang many guns? It instantly escalates any altercation to a potential life and death scenario. Stand your ground in particular has been horrible for Florida.

Zimmerman might be dead right now with no weapon...dude was getting his head smashed into the concrete by a thug with little regard for human life.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Why are you talking about things that aren't evidence?Evidence:Zimmerman initiated the confrontation, and by his own phone activity/reported location pursued Martin for upwards of five minutes. Where Martin decided to go during this time is irrelevant. Much to the shock of white people everywhere black teenagers are afforded the same rights as everyone else, and Martin was allowed to walk wherever he wanted to.Zimmerman eventually pursued him into the courtyard where a fight occurred. This happened after Zimmerman was told by the police that they didn't need him to continue his pursuit of Martin.There's no evidence that Martin was doing anything other than making a trip to the corner store until after he'd been pursued for at least five minutes. Whatever occurred in the courtyard was a result of that pursuit.

None of that proves murder.

No it doesn't. But it's suggestive.

And as you yourself have pointed out in this thread several times, the fact that Zimmerman shot and killed Martin is not in question. It was either murder or self-defense. Zimmerman's claim of self-defense is an affirmative defense, and therefore Zimmerman has to prove it, not the other way around. Without Zimmerman's testimony, the prosecution can simply point to the evidence that Zimmerman fired his gun and shot and killed Martin, and that is enough. Zimmerman has to contradict the idea that it was murder- he has to take the stand and face cross-examination. Can he do this credibly? I doubt it.

Wrong. Beyond a reasonable doubt is always the burden placed upon the prosecution in a criminal trial. All Zimmerman has to do is provide some evidence that he acted in self defense. The prosecution then has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it wasn't self defense.

This has already been explained to him at least a dozen times previously in this thread...

 

[meanjoegreen]

Zimmerman might be dead right now with no weapon...dude was getting his head smashed into the concrete by a thug with little regard for human life.

It's not like Zimmerman has no history of violence himself, and he doesn't have a good track record for telling the truth. Martin isn't the only thug in this sad story.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Zimmerman might be dead right now with no weapon...dude was getting his head smashed into the concrete by a thug with little regard for human life.

It's not like Zimmerman has no history of violence himself, and he doesn't have a good track record for telling the truth. Martin isn't the only thug in this sad story.

I think what we have here is basically 2 good guys who have issues. Treyvon seems to have decent parents who care,they dont come off as ghetto type people . I believe trey`s problems lie in the fact that he is a good kid but a bit of a follower,growing up in dade county and trying to fit in with the wrong crowd never ends well. The pics ive seen of him with his family show a good hearted kid with lots of love for his siblings and elders.Stories of him saving his dad from a fire to always being there for his little brother and volunteering to work the concession stand at little league football games prove hes not the thug people think he is. Im going with hes a good kid who was going down the wrong road and his father was trying to reel him in before it got worse.

Zimmerman is NOT a criminal,as a matter of fact hes the exact opposite. Hes a super cop wannabe . He wants to protect the world from all the bad people. He is way over zealous and that is his downfall. Unfortunately i feel zimmerman doesnt think the laws apply to him ,because he thinks what he does is in the name of the law. He has changed his story and he has lied under oath,but again i dont think he thinks he did anything wrong.

So we have 2 people who arent bad people at heart ,just a bit screwed up. They ran into each other that night and circumstances lead to 1 dead and 1 looking at jail time.

 

[Witz]

Zimmerman might be dead right now with no weapon...dude was getting his head smashed into the concrete by a thug with little regard for human life.

It's not like Zimmerman has no history of violence himself, and he doesn't have a good track record for telling the truth. Martin isn't the only thug in this sad story.

I think what we have here is basically 2 good guys who have issues. Treyvon seems to have decent parents who care,they dont come off as ghetto type people . I believe trey`s problems lie in the fact that he is a good kid but a bit of a follower,growing up in dade county and trying to fit in with the wrong crowd never ends well. The pics ive seen of him with his family show a good hearted kid with lots of love for his siblings and elders.Stories of him saving his dad from a fire to always being there for his little brother and volunteering to work the concession stand at little league football games prove hes not the thug people think he is. Im going with hes a good kid who was going down the wrong road and his father was trying to reel him in before it got worse.

Zimmerman is NOT a criminal,as a matter of fact hes the exact opposite. Hes a super cop wannabe . He wants to protect the world from all the bad people. He is way over zealous and that is his downfall. Unfortunately i feel zimmerman doesnt think the laws apply to him ,because he thinks what he does is in the name of the law. He has changed his story and he has lied under oath,but again i dont think he thinks he did anything wrong.

So we have 2 people who arent bad people at heart ,just a bit screwed up. They ran into each other that night and circumstances lead to 1 dead and 1 looking at jail time.

 

[timschochet]

Why are you talking about things that aren't evidence?Evidence:Zimmerman initiated the confrontation, and by his own phone activity/reported location pursued Martin for upwards of five minutes. Where Martin decided to go during this time is irrelevant. Much to the shock of white people everywhere black teenagers are afforded the same rights as everyone else, and Martin was allowed to walk wherever he wanted to.Zimmerman eventually pursued him into the courtyard where a fight occurred. This happened after Zimmerman was told by the police that they didn't need him to continue his pursuit of Martin.There's no evidence that Martin was doing anything other than making a trip to the corner store until after he'd been pursued for at least five minutes. Whatever occurred in the courtyard was a result of that pursuit.

None of that proves murder.

No it doesn't. But it's suggestive.

And as you yourself have pointed out in this thread several times, the fact that Zimmerman shot and killed Martin is not in question. It was either murder or self-defense. Zimmerman's claim of self-defense is an affirmative defense, and therefore Zimmerman has to prove it, not the other way around. Without Zimmerman's testimony, the prosecution can simply point to the evidence that Zimmerman fired his gun and shot and killed Martin, and that is enough. Zimmerman has to contradict the idea that it was murder- he has to take the stand and face cross-examination. Can he do this credibly? I doubt it.

Wrong. Beyond a reasonable doubt is always the burden placed upon the prosecution in a criminal trial. All Zimmerman has to do is provide some evidence that he acted in self defense. The prosecution then has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it wasn't self defense.

This has already been explained to him at least a dozen times previously in this thread...

Yeah, except that you're going to have to explain it to a jury, and that's the problem.

Christo is arguing here what is legal- and personally, I have always accepted this argument (despite Carolina's ignorant, condescending statement otherwise) which is why I would be forced to acquit. But my point is that almost no jury will see it that way. Zimmerman has to take the stand and he has to be convincing- he has to prove himself. That is the reality, beyond what is legal. If the jury finds Zimmerman to be a liar, and they don't believe him, they're going to convict him. Which is why I predict he's going down.

 

[pantherclub]

If Zimmy doesnt take the stand you may say he is toast.

Party is over if he doesnt talk. I think he does though.

 

[kentric]

Zimmerman seems pretty cool and collected in his run-through of the crime-scene with the police (a day or two after the incident). I think he will come across fairly well to a jury. Especially as he indicated a number of times in the walk-through that he wasn't totally sure of certain events/statements. There is enough gray area surrounding the events that even if Z is caught in a couple of contradictions, I don't believe it will prove fatal to his self-defense claim.

 

[jon_mx]

Zimmerman might be dead right now with no weapon...dude was getting his head smashed into the concrete by a thug with little regard for human life.

It's not like Zimmerman has no history of violence himself, and he doesn't have a good track record for telling the truth. Martin isn't the only thug in this sad story.

I think what we have here is basically 2 good guys who have issues. Treyvon seems to have decent parents who care,they dont come off as ghetto type people . I believe trey`s problems lie in the fact that he is a good kid but a bit of a follower,growing up in dade county and trying to fit in with the wrong crowd never ends well. The pics ive seen of him with his family show a good hearted kid with lots of love for his siblings and elders.Stories of him saving his dad from a fire to always being there for his little brother and volunteering to work the concession stand at little league football games prove hes not the thug people think he is. Im going with hes a good kid who was going down the wrong road and his father was trying to reel him in before it got worse. Zimmerman is NOT a criminal,as a matter of fact hes the exact opposite. Hes a super cop wannabe . He wants to protect the world from all the bad people. He is way over zealous and that is his downfall. Unfortunately i feel zimmerman doesnt think the laws apply to him ,because he thinks what he does is in the name of the law. He has changed his story and he has lied under oath,but again i dont think he thinks he did anything wrong. So we have 2 people who arent bad people at heart ,just a bit screwed up. They ran into each other that night and circumstances lead to 1 dead and 1 looking at jail time.

Who stole the keys?

 

[jon_mx]

If Zimmy doesnt take the stand you may say he is toast. Party is over if he doesnt talk. I think he does though.

No. He won't talk. I think that is the reason they did not assert a SYG argument for a pretrial hearing is to avoid at all costs Zimmerman taking the stand. He is not a very sharp tool.

 

[pantherclub]

If Zimmy doesnt take the stand you may say he is toast. Party is over if he doesnt talk. I think he does though.

No. He won't talk. I think that is the reason they did not assert a SYG argument for a pretrial hearing is to avoid at all costs Zimmerman taking the stand. He is not a very sharp tool.

if that's the case then the prosecutions job just got easier

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

Well, that marijuana evidence is important. After all, we all know how marijuana can make people violent.

we all know that people who sell drugs are the least violent people around.. And that teens that are involved with drugs and getting suspended from school, and carrying around stolen jewelry, etc are non violent types.. The violent ones are the ones who abstain from drugs and never get suspended from school, and wouldn't be in possession of stolen property..

I've known people who've sold a little pot, and I've known plenty of people who smoked it (myself included) and violence is not something I would associate with any of them, including the sellers. I've known plenty of people who were suspended from school, and I've known a few people who stole jewelry, and none of them were murderers. BUT- if you have a BLACK guy who carries around stolen jewelry and sells drugs, then that guy is likely to be a thug and a murderer. At least, that's what the stereotype says. And this is why this "evidence" should never be admitted- because it's inherently racist.

and contemplates buying a gun with a friend, videotapes his buddies beating up a homeless guy, is known to be a fighter, referee fights etc... you left out some thug details.

It's funny to me that when the black guy "contemplates buying a gun with a friend", that makes him suspect in your eyes. But the white guy, who already has a gun, and uses it to kill in this situation, is innocent. Go figure.

If a white teenager video taped his friends beating up a homeless person, is known to get into fights, referees fights, is caught with a backpack full of stolen jewelry that was reported stolen a few blocks from the school, shows off his gold caps for his teeth and contemplates buying a gun I would think of him as much of a "suspect" whatever that means.

It is YOU interjecting race into this and race is the only reason this is going to trial to placate people like you. The fact that you are comparing him to an adult that passed certification for a concealed weapon license and until proven otherwise lawfully used it to defend his life just goes to show how out of touch with reality your thought process is. Try looking up stats on illegal uses of firearms by ccw owners and compare that to teenagers that illegally obtain firearms.

You keep ignoring my Sherman Ware replies to your racist rants, you do realize Zimmerman was one of the few non-black people known to stand up for him against the police department right?