Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (2 Viewers)

[cstu]

One of the few known accounts to contradict Zimmerman's version of events is that of a South Florida girl who says a frightened Trayvon was talking to her on the phone as a man stalked and confronted him on the night of the shooting.Prosecutors have the girl's phone records, as well as Zimmerman's and Trayvon's, but those have not been released. If records confirm the call took place as she described, it would lend credibility to the state.

I thought her testimony wasn't going to be allowed since it's hearsay?

 

[timschochet]

If Zimmerman made contradictory statements, that could be very problematic for him, obviously.

Even so, I can see only two ways that the prosecution wins this case:

1. There is a credible and convincing witness which states, unequivocally, that Zimmerman was on top of Martin at the time of the shooting. Such a witness would make all other evidence that might exonerate Zimmerman completely irrelevant.

2. When Zimmerman is cross-examined on the stand, he is found by the jury to be a liar about what happened.

Short of either of these, any reasonable person would, I believe, have to exonerate Zimmerman.

Tim - are you still speaking about witness 12? The only witness (witness 6) that hasn't changed their story on who they saw on who stated that Martin was on Zimmerman. This is what they said initially and what they said when questioned again.

Let's talk about witness 12:

But in another interview with investigators six days later, the paper reported, she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top.

"I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," the woman, "Witness 12," said.

Now earlier I wrote that I wanted to know the actual sizes of Zimmerman and Martin, and I was told it doesn't make any difference. Well, it might make a difference. I'd sure like to know. As Christo points out, this woman could be referring to the various news reports which had Zimmerman at 250 lbs- he obviously doesn't weigh that much.

BUT- supposing there IS a significant weight difference and Zimmerman weighs more than Martin, and supposing this woman testifies in court that she is "definitely certain" that Zimmerman was the one on top- and supposing the jury believes her and not Zimmerman- if all this happens then Zimmerman is going to be convicted. Because it really doesn't matter if Zimmerman has injuries or even how the fight started at that point. If Zimmerman was on top that would indicate to most reasonable people that he was in control of the situation, and if he was in control, he would not have feared for his life. Therefore the killing of Martin becomes not self-defense, but murder.

So this woman's testimony is absoututely crucial, IMO.

I'm not so sure about that with regards to witness 12. In their initial statement, they noted they saw two people on the ground but didn't know who was on top and only later said it was Zimmerman due to the size based on what they saw on tv (not that they clearly saw Zimmerman as the one being on top - their 'view' was based on the two individuals size). Witness 6 on the other hand, hasn't changed their story at all - they have always maintained that Martin was on top of Zimmerman.

I said that IF witness 12 testifies and IF she is found credible, Zimmerman will be convicted, as well he should in that case. I agree that this is a long way off from happening at this point. On the other hand, I don't think you can dismiss the possibility as easily as you're doing.

 

[timschochet]

One of the few known accounts to contradict Zimmerman's version of events is that of a South Florida girl who says a frightened Trayvon was talking to her on the phone as a man stalked and confronted him on the night of the shooting.Prosecutors have the girl's phone records, as well as Zimmerman's and Trayvon's, but those have not been released. If records confirm the call took place as she described, it would lend credibility to the state.

I thought her testimony wasn't going to be allowed since it's hearsay?

If her testimony is allowed and it makes Zimmerman out to be a liar, then he may very well be convicted. And that really bothers me. Because even if Zimmerman is a liar, that doesn't mean he's guilty of murder. Zimmerman could have started the confrontation, meaning to intimidate or scare Martin and hold him until the police arrived. Then Martin reacted by getting violent, Zimmerman felt his life was threatened and used the gun. Then Zimmerman, panicking and not wanting to go to jail, lied to the police about how the confrontation started. All of that could have happened, and if so, Zimmerman is guilty of stupidity and starting a confrontation (I think he's a racist as well) but he is NOT guilty of murder or manslaughter. To me, he is only guilty for sure if it can be proven that he did not fear for his life. That's why Witness #12 has so much importance to me. If Zimmerman is found guilty simply because he is caught in a lie, that might lead to an unjust result. So I almost hope that this girl's testimony is not allowed.

 

[TexanFan02]

One of the few known accounts to contradict Zimmerman's version of events is that of a South Florida girl who says a frightened Trayvon was talking to her on the phone as a man stalked and confronted him on the night of the shooting.

Prosecutors have the girl's phone records, as well as Zimmerman's and Trayvon's, but those have not been released. If records confirm the call took place as she described, it would lend credibility to the state.

I thought her testimony wasn't going to be allowed since it's hearsay?

If her testimony is allowed and it makes Zimmerman out to be a liar, then he may very well be convicted. And that really bothers me. Because even if Zimmerman is a liar, that doesn't mean he's guilty of murder. Zimmerman could have started the confrontation, meaning to intimidate or scare Martin and hold him until the police arrived. Then Martin reacted by getting violent, Zimmerman felt his life was threatened and used the gun. Then Zimmerman, panicking and not wanting to go to jail, lied to the police about how the confrontation started.

All of that could have happened, and if so, Zimmerman is guilty of stupidity and starting a confrontation (I think he's a racist as well) but he is NOT guilty of murder or manslaughter. To me, he is only guilty for sure if it can be proven that he did not fear for his life. That's why Witness #12 has so much importance to me. If Zimmerman is found guilty simply because he is caught in a lie, that might lead to an unjust result. So I almost hope that this girl's testimony is not allowed.

If he's a liar, he's toast. The rest of your argument is stupid. He killed someone, he's a murderer. Yes, Florida has an insanely stupid law, but he still killed someone. If he lied about the circumstances, he's done.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

If Zimmerman made contradictory statements, that could be very problematic for him, obviously. Even so, I can see only two ways that the prosecution wins this case: 1. There is a credible and convincing witness which states, unequivocally, that Zimmerman was on top of Martin at the time of the shooting. Such a witness would make all other evidence that might exonerate Zimmerman completely irrelevant. 2. When Zimmerman is cross-examined on the stand, he is found by the jury to be a liar about what happened. Short of either of these, any reasonable person would, I believe, have to exonerate Zimmerman.

Neither of those 2 options proven "depraved mind".. Which would be needed for a conviction of 2nd degree murder..

 

[timschochet]

The last two posts before this one are both examples of the extremism which is so pervasive in this thread:

TexasFan02 is so intent on the conviction of George Zimmerman that he completely dismisses even the concept of self-defense. He wrote, "he killed someone, he's a murderer." This is not the first time TexasFan has written this, ignoring the entire history of civilized law.

Carolina Hustler is so intent on the acquittal of George Zimmerman that he argues that even if it were proven that Zimmerman was not in fear of his own life when he shot Trayvon Martin, that wouldn't be enough to convict Zimmerman. The prosecution needs to prove a "depraved mind", whatever that means.

I have chosen not to respond directly to either of these gentlemen at this point because...they've gone insane. There is no reasoning with them. It's useless to argue with people who are this intractable.

 

[SacramentoBob]

Hello good people. What new news?

 

[Neofight]

One of the few known accounts to contradict Zimmerman's version of events is that of a South Florida girl who says a frightened Trayvon was talking to her on the phone as a man stalked and confronted him on the night of the shooting.

Prosecutors have the girl's phone records, as well as Zimmerman's and Trayvon's, but those have not been released. If records confirm the call took place as she described, it would lend credibility to the state.

I thought her testimony wasn't going to be allowed since it's hearsay?

If her testimony is allowed and it makes Zimmerman out to be a liar, then he may very well be convicted. And that really bothers me. Because even if Zimmerman is a liar, that doesn't mean he's guilty of murder. Zimmerman could have started the confrontation, meaning to intimidate or scare Martin and hold him until the police arrived. Then Martin reacted by getting violent, Zimmerman felt his life was threatened and used the gun. Then Zimmerman, panicking and not wanting to go to jail, lied to the police about how the confrontation started.

All of that could have happened, and if so, Zimmerman is guilty of stupidity and starting a confrontation (I think he's a racist as well) but he is NOT guilty of murder or manslaughter. To me, he is only guilty for sure if it can be proven that he did not fear for his life. That's why Witness #12 has so much importance to me. If Zimmerman is found guilty simply because he is caught in a lie, that might lead to an unjust result. So I almost hope that this girl's testimony is not allowed.

What you describe here sounds like false arrest or, at the very least, false imprisonment. If someone tried that with me and laid a hand on me in the process they could expect that I would not be agreeable, having committed no crime. If they were of the mindset that I was a criminal and they were out for justice they'd likely be the one not only to initiate the confrontation but escalate it; assuming he, like Zimmerman, had a desire to be a cop, a history of this type of behavior and, in the words of a close friend, was "mad as hell and wasn't going to take it anymore."In that scenario, I'd have no problem responding with physical force.

If he then shot me dead what absolves him of manslaughter?

 

[parasaurolophus]

One of the few known accounts to contradict Zimmerman's version of events is that of a South Florida girl who says a frightened Trayvon was talking to her on the phone as a man stalked and confronted him on the night of the shooting.

Prosecutors have the girl's phone records, as well as Zimmerman's and Trayvon's, but those have not been released. If records confirm the call took place as she described, it would lend credibility to the state.

I thought her testimony wasn't going to be allowed since it's hearsay?

If her testimony is allowed and it makes Zimmerman out to be a liar, then he may very well be convicted. And that really bothers me. Because even if Zimmerman is a liar, that doesn't mean he's guilty of murder. Zimmerman could have started the confrontation, meaning to intimidate or scare Martin and hold him until the police arrived. Then Martin reacted by getting violent, Zimmerman felt his life was threatened and used the gun. Then Zimmerman, panicking and not wanting to go to jail, lied to the police about how the confrontation started.

All of that could have happened, and if so, Zimmerman is guilty of stupidity and starting a confrontation (I think he's a racist as well) but he is NOT guilty of murder or manslaughter. To me, he is only guilty for sure if it can be proven that he did not fear for his life. That's why Witness #12 has so much importance to me. If Zimmerman is found guilty simply because he is caught in a lie, that might lead to an unjust result. So I almost hope that this girl's testimony is not allowed.

What you describe here sounds like false arrest or, at the very least, false imprisonment. If someone tried that with me and laid a hand on me in the process they could expect that I would not be agreeable, having committed no crime. If they were of the mindset that I was a criminal and they were out for justice they'd likely be the one not only to initiate the confrontation but escalate it; assuming he, like Zimmerman, had a desire to be a cop, a history of this type of behavior and, in the words of a close friend, was "mad as hell and wasn't going to take it anymore."In that scenario, I'd have no problem responding with physical force.

If he then shot me dead what absolves him of manslaughter?

You crack me up. Everything with you is about fighting. At least you picked a good username.

 

[Chaos Commish]

Tim, the pos affidavit said Zimmerman acted with a depraved mind because:

Second-Degree Murder: Depraved Mind in Tampa, FL

There are two kinds of second-degree murder in the state of Florida: depraved mind murder and accomplice felony murder. Depraved mind murder covers the unlawful killing of another person by an imminently dangerous act that demonstrates a “depraved mind” with an extreme lack of regard for human life. This type of second-degree murder punishes extremely reckless, uncaring acts that lead to death. It does not apply to mere reckless indifference toward human life; that is covered by manslaughter laws. It also does not apply to murders committed with intent to kill; that is covered by first degree murder. Instead, committing an imminently dangerous act with a depraved mind means committing an act an ordinary person would know is reasonably likely to lead to death or serious injury, doing so with ill will or evil intent (but not intent to kill), and doing so in a way that demonstrates a complete indifference to human life. This is known in other parts of the country as depraved indifference homicide or depraved heart murder.

link

 

[Neofight]

One of the few known accounts to contradict Zimmerman's version of events is that of a South Florida girl who says a frightened Trayvon was talking to her on the phone as a man stalked and confronted him on the night of the shooting.

Prosecutors have the girl's phone records, as well as Zimmerman's and Trayvon's, but those have not been released. If records confirm the call took place as she described, it would lend credibility to the state.

I thought her testimony wasn't going to be allowed since it's hearsay?

If her testimony is allowed and it makes Zimmerman out to be a liar, then he may very well be convicted. And that really bothers me. Because even if Zimmerman is a liar, that doesn't mean he's guilty of murder. Zimmerman could have started the confrontation, meaning to intimidate or scare Martin and hold him until the police arrived. Then Martin reacted by getting violent, Zimmerman felt his life was threatened and used the gun. Then Zimmerman, panicking and not wanting to go to jail, lied to the police about how the confrontation started.

All of that could have happened, and if so, Zimmerman is guilty of stupidity and starting a confrontation (I think he's a racist as well) but he is NOT guilty of murder or manslaughter. To me, he is only guilty for sure if it can be proven that he did not fear for his life. That's why Witness #12 has so much importance to me. If Zimmerman is found guilty simply because he is caught in a lie, that might lead to an unjust result. So I almost hope that this girl's testimony is not allowed.

What you describe here sounds like false arrest or, at the very least, false imprisonment. If someone tried that with me and laid a hand on me in the process they could expect that I would not be agreeable, having committed no crime. If they were of the mindset that I was a criminal and they were out for justice they'd likely be the one not only to initiate the confrontation but escalate it; assuming he, like Zimmerman, had a desire to be a cop, a history of this type of behavior and, in the words of a close friend, was "mad as hell and wasn't going to take it anymore."In that scenario, I'd have no problem responding with physical force.

If he then shot me dead what absolves him of manslaughter?

You crack me up. Everything with you is about fighting. At least you picked a good username.

I'd like to thank you for your opinion. As uninformed as it is.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Trayvon Martin case 911 call: Two experts reach two very different conclusions

(interesting)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/trayvon-martin-case-911-call-two-experts-reach-two-much-different-conclusions/2012/05/19/gIQAtuapbU_story.html

In the last 45 seconds, there is a faint voice, a distant yell, and the urgent dialogue between a woman and a 911 operator.

“There’s just someone screaming outside,” the caller begins on the recorded line.

There is more distant yelling obscured by the operator — “Male or female?” — and the caller — “I think they’re yelling ‘help,’ but I don’t know.” There is a high-pitched scream, a kind of cry, and then the clearest sound of all.

“There’s gunshots. . . . Just one,” the woman says on the only 911 call to record what was happening in the dark at the Retreat at Twin Lakes, a gated townhouse community in Sanford, Fla., on the night of Feb. 26.

Those recorded 45 seconds turned out to be a recording of the end of Trayvon Martin’s life.

And amid the conflicting, hazy and at times emotional reports from neighbors who heard and glimpsed only fragments of what was happening during those crucial seconds, the audio recording of them — from the start of the call at 7:16:11 p.m. until the gunshot at 7:16:56 p.m. — is perhaps the closest prosecutors and defense attorneys may come to an objective witness to the events that night.

It remains unclear exactly how the recording might be used in the court case, now underway, in which neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman, who said he shot the unarmed 17-year old in self-defense, is charged with second-degree murder.

Zimmerman defense attorney Mark O’Mara said Friday on CBS that the recording would require “a lot of forensic work-up.” And last week, Florida special prosecutor Angela B. Corey released a trove of documents that included an FBI analysis stating that the recording is inconclusive and a witness list that includes two audio experts who have said the opposite.

(read more in link above , has a map also)

 

[timschochet]

Tim, the pos affidavit said Zimmerman acted with a depraved mind because:

Second-Degree Murder: Depraved Mind in Tampa, FL

There are two kinds of second-degree murder in the state of Florida: depraved mind murder and accomplice felony murder. Depraved mind murder covers the unlawful killing of another person by an imminently dangerous act that demonstrates a "depraved mind" with an extreme lack of regard for human life. This type of second-degree murder punishes extremely reckless, uncaring acts that lead to death. It does not apply to mere reckless indifference toward human life; that is covered by manslaughter laws. It also does not apply to murders committed with intent to kill; that is covered by first degree murder. Instead, committing an imminently dangerous act with a depraved mind means committing an act an ordinary person would know is reasonably likely to lead to death or serious injury, doing so with ill will or evil intent (but not intent to kill), and doing so in a way that demonstrates a complete indifference to human life. This is known in other parts of the country as depraved indifference homicide or depraved heart murder.

link

Thanks for the explanation. But look: if a jury decides that ZImmerman was not acting in self-defense, then of course they're going to convict him. I understand this language is out there. But for Carolina Hustler to suggest that this language would prevent a jury from convicting Zimmerman even if they were convinced that Zimmerman was not in fear of his own life...is insane.

 

[kutta]

"Sometimes you say things to the police that you think are helping you, but in reality, they're not," Grieco said.

You have the right to remain silent - use it.

Or as my dad used to tell me all the time - You have to learn to keep your big... mouth... shut!

 

[kentric]

Anyone have a flowchart of Tim's positions in this thread?

Here

 

[TexanFan02]

Hello good people. What new news?

No new news.

 

[NJ]

And that really bothers me. Because even if Zimmerman is a liar, that doesn't mean he's guilty of murder. Zimmerman could have started the confrontation, meaning to intimidate or scare Martin and hold him until the police arrived. Then Martin reacted by getting violent, Zimmerman felt his life was threatened and used the gun. Then Zimmerman, panicking and not wanting to go to jail, lied to the police about how the confrontation started.

This is insane, you are saying that if someone intentionally starts a confrontation with someone else while using a gun to intimidate and scare the person, its not murder if they end up using the gun because they didn't actually intend on using the gun until the person decided to fight back? WTF?I'm not saying that's what happened, but IF that is what happened, how could anyone possibly think that's not some form of murder/manslaughter???

 

[kentric]

Let's talk about witness 12:

But in another interview with investigators six days later, the paper reported, she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top.

"I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," the woman, "Witness 12," said.

Now earlier I wrote that I wanted to know the actual sizes of Zimmerman and Martin, and I was told it doesn't make any difference. Well, it might make a difference. I'd sure like to know. As Christo points out, this woman could be referring to the various news reports which had Zimmerman at 250 lbs- he obviously doesn't weigh that much.

BUT- supposing there IS a significant weight difference and Zimmerman weighs more than Martin, and supposing this woman testifies in court that she is "definitely certain" that Zimmerman was the one on top- and supposing the jury believes her and not Zimmerman- if all this happens then Zimmerman is going to be convicted. Because it really doesn't matter if Zimmerman has injuries or even how the fight started at that point. If Zimmerman was on top that would indicate to most reasonable people that he was in control of the situation, and if he was in control, he would not have feared for his life. Therefore the killing of Martin becomes not self-defense, but murder.

So this woman's testimony is absoututely crucial, IMO.

A half-decent defense attorney will rip this witness to shreds. She seems to have little idea what she saw, and changed her story after the fact? She compared her memory of what she vaguely saw to pictures she saw on TV? The pictures on TV looked nothing like the actual participants? If anything, on a fleeting glance, most people would probably think Martin was larger based simply on height.

Tim. If the prosecution were to hang its hat on this they would be in serious trouble. There's no way her testimony should be given any weight.

 

[timschochet]

Let's talk about witness 12:

But in another interview with investigators six days later, the paper reported, she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top.

"I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," the woman, "Witness 12," said.

Now earlier I wrote that I wanted to know the actual sizes of Zimmerman and Martin, and I was told it doesn't make any difference. Well, it might make a difference. I'd sure like to know. As Christo points out, this woman could be referring to the various news reports which had Zimmerman at 250 lbs- he obviously doesn't weigh that much.

BUT- supposing there IS a significant weight difference and Zimmerman weighs more than Martin, and supposing this woman testifies in court that she is "definitely certain" that Zimmerman was the one on top- and supposing the jury believes her and not Zimmerman- if all this happens then Zimmerman is going to be convicted. Because it really doesn't matter if Zimmerman has injuries or even how the fight started at that point. If Zimmerman was on top that would indicate to most reasonable people that he was in control of the situation, and if he was in control, he would not have feared for his life. Therefore the killing of Martin becomes not self-defense, but murder.

So this woman's testimony is absoututely crucial, IMO.

A half-decent defense attorney will rip this witness to shreds. She seems to have little idea what she saw, and changed her story after the fact? She compared her memory of what she vaguely saw to pictures she saw on TV? The pictures on TV looked nothing like the actual participants? If anything, on a fleeting glance, most people would probably think Martin was larger based simply on height.

Tim. If the prosecution were to hang its hat on this they would be in serious trouble. There's no way her testimony should be given any weight.

We'll see. What you and Rich wrote is conjecture. We won't know for sure until we hear this woman testify. IF she testifies.

 

[timschochet]

And that really bothers me. Because even if Zimmerman is a liar, that doesn't mean he's guilty of murder. Zimmerman could have started the confrontation, meaning to intimidate or scare Martin and hold him until the police arrived. Then Martin reacted by getting violent, Zimmerman felt his life was threatened and used the gun. Then Zimmerman, panicking and not wanting to go to jail, lied to the police about how the confrontation started.

This is insane, you are saying that if someone intentionally starts a confrontation with someone else while using a gun to intimidate and scare the person, its not murder if they end up using the gun because they didn't actually intend on using the gun until the person decided to fight back? WTF?I'm not saying that's what happened, but IF that is what happened, how could anyone possibly think that's not some form of murder/manslaughter???

It's probably manslaughter. it's not murder, as I understand murder.

 

[timschochet]

One of the few known accounts to contradict Zimmerman's version of events is that of a South Florida girl who says a frightened Trayvon was talking to her on the phone as a man stalked and confronted him on the night of the shooting.

Prosecutors have the girl's phone records, as well as Zimmerman's and Trayvon's, but those have not been released. If records confirm the call took place as she described, it would lend credibility to the state.

I thought her testimony wasn't going to be allowed since it's hearsay?

If her testimony is allowed and it makes Zimmerman out to be a liar, then he may very well be convicted. And that really bothers me. Because even if Zimmerman is a liar, that doesn't mean he's guilty of murder. Zimmerman could have started the confrontation, meaning to intimidate or scare Martin and hold him until the police arrived. Then Martin reacted by getting violent, Zimmerman felt his life was threatened and used the gun. Then Zimmerman, panicking and not wanting to go to jail, lied to the police about how the confrontation started.

All of that could have happened, and if so, Zimmerman is guilty of stupidity and starting a confrontation (I think he's a racist as well) but he is NOT guilty of murder or manslaughter. To me, he is only guilty for sure if it can be proven that he did not fear for his life. That's why Witness #12 has so much importance to me. If Zimmerman is found guilty simply because he is caught in a lie, that might lead to an unjust result. So I almost hope that this girl's testimony is not allowed.

What you describe here sounds like false arrest or, at the very least, false imprisonment. If someone tried that with me and laid a hand on me in the process they could expect that I would not be agreeable, having committed no crime. If they were of the mindset that I was a criminal and they were out for justice they'd likely be the one not only to initiate the confrontation but escalate it; assuming he, like Zimmerman, had a desire to be a cop, a history of this type of behavior and, in the words of a close friend, was "mad as hell and wasn't going to take it anymore."In that scenario, I'd have no problem responding with physical force.

If he then shot me dead what absolves him of manslaughter?

What you wrote makes sense to me. He would probably be guilty of manslaughter in such a scenario. Not murder, though.

 

[SacramentoBob]

Hello good people. What new news?

No new news.

Thanks. Thread activity seemed to pick up and I wondered what the latest KKK spin was.

 

[TexanFan02]

Hello good people. What new news?

No new news.

Thanks. Thread activity seemed to pick up and I wondered what the latest KKK spin was.

Clinton hasn't posted in a while.

 

[kentric]

Let's talk about witness 12:

But in another interview with investigators six days later, the paper reported, she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top.

"I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," the woman, "Witness 12," said.

Now earlier I wrote that I wanted to know the actual sizes of Zimmerman and Martin, and I was told it doesn't make any difference. Well, it might make a difference. I'd sure like to know. As Christo points out, this woman could be referring to the various news reports which had Zimmerman at 250 lbs- he obviously doesn't weigh that much.

BUT- supposing there IS a significant weight difference and Zimmerman weighs more than Martin, and supposing this woman testifies in court that she is "definitely certain" that Zimmerman was the one on top- and supposing the jury believes her and not Zimmerman- if all this happens then Zimmerman is going to be convicted. Because it really doesn't matter if Zimmerman has injuries or even how the fight started at that point. If Zimmerman was on top that would indicate to most reasonable people that he was in control of the situation, and if he was in control, he would not have feared for his life. Therefore the killing of Martin becomes not self-defense, but murder.

So this woman's testimony is absoututely crucial, IMO.

A half-decent defense attorney will rip this witness to shreds. She seems to have little idea what she saw, and changed her story after the fact? She compared her memory of what she vaguely saw to pictures she saw on TV? The pictures on TV looked nothing like the actual participants? If anything, on a fleeting glance, most people would probably think Martin was larger based simply on height.

Tim. If the prosecution were to hang its hat on this they would be in serious trouble. There's no way her testimony should be given any weight.

We'll see. What you and Rich wrote is conjecture. We won't know for sure until we hear this woman testify. IF she testifies.

The woman's testimony is more conjecture as I see it. Her initial position was that she couldn't tell and then she changes her position based on some photos she saw days later. Difficult to see most jurors giving her much credence. She's got one little bit of the story and flip-flopping won't play well.

 

[Neofight]

Hello good people. What new news?

No new news.

Thanks. Thread activity seemed to pick up and I wondered what the latest KKK spin was.

Clinton hasn't posted in a while.

What was the post that ruffled feathers? Something about genetic inferiority of somesuch nonsense... Was that in here?

 

[Chaos Commish]

Hello good people. What new news?

No new news.

Thanks. Thread activity seemed to pick up and I wondered what the latest KKK spin was.

Clinton hasn't posted in a while.

What was the post that ruffled feathers? Something about genetic inferiority of somesuch nonsense... Was that in here?

I hope his absence isn't voluntary but imposed.

 

[TexanFan02]

Hello good people. What new news?

No new news.

Thanks. Thread activity seemed to pick up and I wondered what the latest KKK spin was.

Clinton hasn't posted in a while.

What was the post that ruffled feathers? Something about genetic inferiority of somesuch nonsense... Was that in here?

I hope his absence isn't voluntary but imposed.

 

[TexanFan02]

Hello good people. What new news?

No new news.

Thanks. Thread activity seemed to pick up and I wondered what the latest KKK spin was.

Clinton hasn't posted in a while.

What was the post that ruffled feathers? Something about genetic inferiority of somesuch nonsense... Was that in here?

These:Who posted in: Florida boy killed by Neighborhood WatchClinton 187

 

[jon_mx]

Let's talk about witness 12:

But in another interview with investigators six days later, the paper reported, she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top.

"I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," the woman, "Witness 12," said.

Now earlier I wrote that I wanted to know the actual sizes of Zimmerman and Martin, and I was told it doesn't make any difference. Well, it might make a difference. I'd sure like to know. As Christo points out, this woman could be referring to the various news reports which had Zimmerman at 250 lbs- he obviously doesn't weigh that much.

BUT- supposing there IS a significant weight difference and Zimmerman weighs more than Martin, and supposing this woman testifies in court that she is "definitely certain" that Zimmerman was the one on top- and supposing the jury believes her and not Zimmerman- if all this happens then Zimmerman is going to be convicted. Because it really doesn't matter if Zimmerman has injuries or even how the fight started at that point. If Zimmerman was on top that would indicate to most reasonable people that he was in control of the situation, and if he was in control, he would not have feared for his life. Therefore the killing of Martin becomes not self-defense, but murder.

So this woman's testimony is absoututely crucial, IMO.

A half-decent defense attorney will rip this witness to shreds. She seems to have little idea what she saw, and changed her story after the fact? She compared her memory of what she vaguely saw to pictures she saw on TV? The pictures on TV looked nothing like the actual participants? If anything, on a fleeting glance, most people would probably think Martin was larger based simply on height.

Tim. If the prosecution were to hang its hat on this they would be in serious trouble. There's no way her testimony should be given any weight.

We'll see. What you and Rich wrote is conjecture. We won't know for sure until we hear this woman testify. IF she testifies.

The woman's testimony is more conjecture as I see it. Her initial position was that she couldn't tell and then she changes her position based on some photos she saw days later. Difficult to see most jurors giving her much credence. She's got one little bit of the story and flip-flopping won't play well.

Wasn't it Zimmerman who had grass stains on his back. Wasn't it Zimmerman with the broken nose. Wasn't it Zimmerman with the cuts on the back of his head. Not sure how in the hell anyone still thinks it was Zimmerman on top. Too many people clinging to their preconceived theories.

 

[TexanFan02]

Let's talk about witness 12:

But in another interview with investigators six days later, the paper reported, she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top.

"I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," the woman, "Witness 12," said.

Now earlier I wrote that I wanted to know the actual sizes of Zimmerman and Martin, and I was told it doesn't make any difference. Well, it might make a difference. I'd sure like to know. As Christo points out, this woman could be referring to the various news reports which had Zimmerman at 250 lbs- he obviously doesn't weigh that much.

BUT- supposing there IS a significant weight difference and Zimmerman weighs more than Martin, and supposing this woman testifies in court that she is "definitely certain" that Zimmerman was the one on top- and supposing the jury believes her and not Zimmerman- if all this happens then Zimmerman is going to be convicted. Because it really doesn't matter if Zimmerman has injuries or even how the fight started at that point. If Zimmerman was on top that would indicate to most reasonable people that he was in control of the situation, and if he was in control, he would not have feared for his life. Therefore the killing of Martin becomes not self-defense, but murder.

So this woman's testimony is absoututely crucial, IMO.

A half-decent defense attorney will rip this witness to shreds. She seems to have little idea what she saw, and changed her story after the fact? She compared her memory of what she vaguely saw to pictures she saw on TV? The pictures on TV looked nothing like the actual participants? If anything, on a fleeting glance, most people would probably think Martin was larger based simply on height.

Tim. If the prosecution were to hang its hat on this they would be in serious trouble. There's no way her testimony should be given any weight.

We'll see. What you and Rich wrote is conjecture. We won't know for sure until we hear this woman testify. IF she testifies.

The woman's testimony is more conjecture as I see it. Her initial position was that she couldn't tell and then she changes her position based on some photos she saw days later. Difficult to see most jurors giving her much credence. She's got one little bit of the story and flip-flopping won't play well.

Wasn't it Zimmerman who had grass stains on his back. Wasn't it Zimmerman with the broken nose. Wasn't it Zimmerman with the cuts on the back of his head. Not sure how in the hell anyone still thinks it was Zimmerman on top. Too many people clinging to their preconceived theories.

Different people can be on top during a fight.

 

[jon_mx]

Let's talk about witness 12:

But in another interview with investigators six days later, the paper reported, she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top.

"I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," the woman, "Witness 12," said.

Now earlier I wrote that I wanted to know the actual sizes of Zimmerman and Martin, and I was told it doesn't make any difference. Well, it might make a difference. I'd sure like to know. As Christo points out, this woman could be referring to the various news reports which had Zimmerman at 250 lbs- he obviously doesn't weigh that much.

BUT- supposing there IS a significant weight difference and Zimmerman weighs more than Martin, and supposing this woman testifies in court that she is "definitely certain" that Zimmerman was the one on top- and supposing the jury believes her and not Zimmerman- if all this happens then Zimmerman is going to be convicted. Because it really doesn't matter if Zimmerman has injuries or even how the fight started at that point. If Zimmerman was on top that would indicate to most reasonable people that he was in control of the situation, and if he was in control, he would not have feared for his life. Therefore the killing of Martin becomes not self-defense, but murder.

So this woman's testimony is absoututely crucial, IMO.

A half-decent defense attorney will rip this witness to shreds. She seems to have little idea what she saw, and changed her story after the fact? She compared her memory of what she vaguely saw to pictures she saw on TV? The pictures on TV looked nothing like the actual participants? If anything, on a fleeting glance, most people would probably think Martin was larger based simply on height.

Tim. If the prosecution were to hang its hat on this they would be in serious trouble. There's no way her testimony should be given any weight.

We'll see. What you and Rich wrote is conjecture. We won't know for sure until we hear this woman testify. IF she testifies.

The woman's testimony is more conjecture as I see it. Her initial position was that she couldn't tell and then she changes her position based on some photos she saw days later. Difficult to see most jurors giving her much credence. She's got one little bit of the story and flip-flopping won't play well.

Wasn't it Zimmerman who had grass stains on his back. Wasn't it Zimmerman with the broken nose. Wasn't it Zimmerman with the cuts on the back of his head. Not sure how in the hell anyone still thinks it was Zimmerman on top. Too many people clinging to their preconceived theories.

Different people can be on top during a fight.

Keep on clinging!

 

[Christo]

Let's talk about witness 12:

But in another interview with investigators six days later, the paper reported, she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top.

"I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," the woman, "Witness 12," said.

Now earlier I wrote that I wanted to know the actual sizes of Zimmerman and Martin, and I was told it doesn't make any difference. Well, it might make a difference. I'd sure like to know. As Christo points out, this woman could be referring to the various news reports which had Zimmerman at 250 lbs- he obviously doesn't weigh that much.

BUT- supposing there IS a significant weight difference and Zimmerman weighs more than Martin, and supposing this woman testifies in court that she is "definitely certain" that Zimmerman was the one on top- and supposing the jury believes her and not Zimmerman- if all this happens then Zimmerman is going to be convicted. Because it really doesn't matter if Zimmerman has injuries or even how the fight started at that point. If Zimmerman was on top that would indicate to most reasonable people that he was in control of the situation, and if he was in control, he would not have feared for his life. Therefore the killing of Martin becomes not self-defense, but murder.

So this woman's testimony is absoututely crucial, IMO.

A half-decent defense attorney will rip this witness to shreds. She seems to have little idea what she saw, and changed her story after the fact? She compared her memory of what she vaguely saw to pictures she saw on TV? The pictures on TV looked nothing like the actual participants? If anything, on a fleeting glance, most people would probably think Martin was larger based simply on height.

Tim. If the prosecution were to hang its hat on this they would be in serious trouble. There's no way her testimony should be given any weight.

We'll see. What you and Rich wrote is conjecture. We won't know for sure until we hear this woman testify. IF she testifies.

The woman's testimony is more conjecture as I see it. Her initial position was that she couldn't tell and then she changes her position based on some photos she saw days later. Difficult to see most jurors giving her much credence. She's got one little bit of the story and flip-flopping won't play well.

Wasn't it Zimmerman who had grass stains on his back. Wasn't it Zimmerman with the broken nose. Wasn't it Zimmerman with the cuts on the back of his head. Not sure how in the hell anyone still thinks it was Zimmerman on top. Too many people clinging to their preconceived theories.

Different people can be on top during a fight.

Sure, but what's the evidence that Zimmerman was on top?

 

[TexanFan02]

Let's talk about witness 12:

But in another interview with investigators six days later, the paper reported, she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top.

"I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," the woman, "Witness 12," said.

Now earlier I wrote that I wanted to know the actual sizes of Zimmerman and Martin, and I was told it doesn't make any difference. Well, it might make a difference. I'd sure like to know. As Christo points out, this woman could be referring to the various news reports which had Zimmerman at 250 lbs- he obviously doesn't weigh that much.

BUT- supposing there IS a significant weight difference and Zimmerman weighs more than Martin, and supposing this woman testifies in court that she is "definitely certain" that Zimmerman was the one on top- and supposing the jury believes her and not Zimmerman- if all this happens then Zimmerman is going to be convicted. Because it really doesn't matter if Zimmerman has injuries or even how the fight started at that point. If Zimmerman was on top that would indicate to most reasonable people that he was in control of the situation, and if he was in control, he would not have feared for his life. Therefore the killing of Martin becomes not self-defense, but murder.

So this woman's testimony is absoututely crucial, IMO.

A half-decent defense attorney will rip this witness to shreds. She seems to have little idea what she saw, and changed her story after the fact? She compared her memory of what she vaguely saw to pictures she saw on TV? The pictures on TV looked nothing like the actual participants? If anything, on a fleeting glance, most people would probably think Martin was larger based simply on height.

Tim. If the prosecution were to hang its hat on this they would be in serious trouble. There's no way her testimony should be given any weight.

We'll see. What you and Rich wrote is conjecture. We won't know for sure until we hear this woman testify. IF she testifies.

The woman's testimony is more conjecture as I see it. Her initial position was that she couldn't tell and then she changes her position based on some photos she saw days later. Difficult to see most jurors giving her much credence. She's got one little bit of the story and flip-flopping won't play well.

Wasn't it Zimmerman who had grass stains on his back. Wasn't it Zimmerman with the broken nose. Wasn't it Zimmerman with the cuts on the back of his head. Not sure how in the hell anyone still thinks it was Zimmerman on top. Too many people clinging to their preconceived theories.

Different people can be on top during a fight.

Sure, but what's the evidence that Zimmerman was on top?

Witness #12.

 

[TexanFan02]

Let's talk about witness 12:

But in another interview with investigators six days later, the paper reported, she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top.

"I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," the woman, "Witness 12," said.

Now earlier I wrote that I wanted to know the actual sizes of Zimmerman and Martin, and I was told it doesn't make any difference. Well, it might make a difference. I'd sure like to know. As Christo points out, this woman could be referring to the various news reports which had Zimmerman at 250 lbs- he obviously doesn't weigh that much.

BUT- supposing there IS a significant weight difference and Zimmerman weighs more than Martin, and supposing this woman testifies in court that she is "definitely certain" that Zimmerman was the one on top- and supposing the jury believes her and not Zimmerman- if all this happens then Zimmerman is going to be convicted. Because it really doesn't matter if Zimmerman has injuries or even how the fight started at that point. If Zimmerman was on top that would indicate to most reasonable people that he was in control of the situation, and if he was in control, he would not have feared for his life. Therefore the killing of Martin becomes not self-defense, but murder.

So this woman's testimony is absoututely crucial, IMO.

A half-decent defense attorney will rip this witness to shreds. She seems to have little idea what she saw, and changed her story after the fact? She compared her memory of what she vaguely saw to pictures she saw on TV? The pictures on TV looked nothing like the actual participants? If anything, on a fleeting glance, most people would probably think Martin was larger based simply on height.

Tim. If the prosecution were to hang its hat on this they would be in serious trouble. There's no way her testimony should be given any weight.

We'll see. What you and Rich wrote is conjecture. We won't know for sure until we hear this woman testify. IF she testifies.

The woman's testimony is more conjecture as I see it. Her initial position was that she couldn't tell and then she changes her position based on some photos she saw days later. Difficult to see most jurors giving her much credence. She's got one little bit of the story and flip-flopping won't play well.

Wasn't it Zimmerman who had grass stains on his back. Wasn't it Zimmerman with the broken nose. Wasn't it Zimmerman with the cuts on the back of his head. Not sure how in the hell anyone still thinks it was Zimmerman on top. Too many people clinging to their preconceived theories.

Different people can be on top during a fight.

Keep on clinging!

Zimmerman still in jail for murder? Yeah, I thought so.

 

[Christo]

Let's talk about witness 12:

But in another interview with investigators six days later, the paper reported, she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top.

"I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," the woman, "Witness 12," said.

Now earlier I wrote that I wanted to know the actual sizes of Zimmerman and Martin, and I was told it doesn't make any difference. Well, it might make a difference. I'd sure like to know. As Christo points out, this woman could be referring to the various news reports which had Zimmerman at 250 lbs- he obviously doesn't weigh that much.

BUT- supposing there IS a significant weight difference and Zimmerman weighs more than Martin, and supposing this woman testifies in court that she is "definitely certain" that Zimmerman was the one on top- and supposing the jury believes her and not Zimmerman- if all this happens then Zimmerman is going to be convicted. Because it really doesn't matter if Zimmerman has injuries or even how the fight started at that point. If Zimmerman was on top that would indicate to most reasonable people that he was in control of the situation, and if he was in control, he would not have feared for his life. Therefore the killing of Martin becomes not self-defense, but murder.

So this woman's testimony is absoututely crucial, IMO.

A half-decent defense attorney will rip this witness to shreds. She seems to have little idea what she saw, and changed her story after the fact? She compared her memory of what she vaguely saw to pictures she saw on TV? The pictures on TV looked nothing like the actual participants? If anything, on a fleeting glance, most people would probably think Martin was larger based simply on height.

Tim. If the prosecution were to hang its hat on this they would be in serious trouble. There's no way her testimony should be given any weight.

We'll see. What you and Rich wrote is conjecture. We won't know for sure until we hear this woman testify. IF she testifies.

The woman's testimony is more conjecture as I see it. Her initial position was that she couldn't tell and then she changes her position based on some photos she saw days later. Difficult to see most jurors giving her much credence. She's got one little bit of the story and flip-flopping won't play well.

Wasn't it Zimmerman who had grass stains on his back. Wasn't it Zimmerman with the broken nose. Wasn't it Zimmerman with the cuts on the back of his head. Not sure how in the hell anyone still thinks it was Zimmerman on top. Too many people clinging to their preconceived theories.

Different people can be on top during a fight.

Sure, but what's the evidence that Zimmerman was on top?

Witness #12.

 

[TexanFan02]

Let's talk about witness 12:

But in another interview with investigators six days later, the paper reported, she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top.

"I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," the woman, "Witness 12," said.

Now earlier I wrote that I wanted to know the actual sizes of Zimmerman and Martin, and I was told it doesn't make any difference. Well, it might make a difference. I'd sure like to know. As Christo points out, this woman could be referring to the various news reports which had Zimmerman at 250 lbs- he obviously doesn't weigh that much.

BUT- supposing there IS a significant weight difference and Zimmerman weighs more than Martin, and supposing this woman testifies in court that she is "definitely certain" that Zimmerman was the one on top- and supposing the jury believes her and not Zimmerman- if all this happens then Zimmerman is going to be convicted. Because it really doesn't matter if Zimmerman has injuries or even how the fight started at that point. If Zimmerman was on top that would indicate to most reasonable people that he was in control of the situation, and if he was in control, he would not have feared for his life. Therefore the killing of Martin becomes not self-defense, but murder.

So this woman's testimony is absoututely crucial, IMO.

A half-decent defense attorney will rip this witness to shreds. She seems to have little idea what she saw, and changed her story after the fact? She compared her memory of what she vaguely saw to pictures she saw on TV? The pictures on TV looked nothing like the actual participants? If anything, on a fleeting glance, most people would probably think Martin was larger based simply on height.

Tim. If the prosecution were to hang its hat on this they would be in serious trouble. There's no way her testimony should be given any weight.

We'll see. What you and Rich wrote is conjecture. We won't know for sure until we hear this woman testify. IF she testifies.

The woman's testimony is more conjecture as I see it. Her initial position was that she couldn't tell and then she changes her position based on some photos she saw days later. Difficult to see most jurors giving her much credence. She's got one little bit of the story and flip-flopping won't play well.

Wasn't it Zimmerman who had grass stains on his back. Wasn't it Zimmerman with the broken nose. Wasn't it Zimmerman with the cuts on the back of his head. Not sure how in the hell anyone still thinks it was Zimmerman on top. Too many people clinging to their preconceived theories.

Different people can be on top during a fight.

Sure, but what's the evidence that Zimmerman was on top?

Witness #12.

Yeah, laugh at the witnesses you don't agree with, stick with the ones you do.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

The last two posts before this one are both examples of the extremism which is so pervasive in this thread:

TexasFan02 is so intent on the conviction of George Zimmerman that he completely dismisses even the concept of self-defense. He wrote, "he killed someone, he's a murderer." This is not the first time TexasFan has written this, ignoring the entire history of civilized law.

Carolina Hustler is so intent on the acquittal of George Zimmerman that he argues that even if it were proven that Zimmerman was not in fear of his own life when he shot Trayvon Martin, that wouldn't be enough to convict Zimmerman. The prosecution needs to prove a "depraved mind", whatever that means.

I have chosen not to respond directly to either of these gentlemen at this point because...they've gone insane. There is no reasoning with them. It's useless to argue with people who are this intractable.

The specific wording of the law says "depraved mind".. Need to prove depraved mind in order to get a 2nd degree murder conviction.. Has nothing to do with me.. And if Zimmerman did murder Trayvon, I have no problem with him being convicted. I only argue against the assertions you're making when they are wrong..

 

[Carolina Hustler]

One of the few known accounts to contradict Zimmerman's version of events is that of a South Florida girl who says a frightened Trayvon was talking to her on the phone as a man stalked and confronted him on the night of the shooting.

Prosecutors have the girl's phone records, as well as Zimmerman's and Trayvon's, but those have not been released. If records confirm the call took place as she described, it would lend credibility to the state.

I thought her testimony wasn't going to be allowed since it's hearsay?

If her testimony is allowed and it makes Zimmerman out to be a liar, then he may very well be convicted. And that really bothers me. Because even if Zimmerman is a liar, that doesn't mean he's guilty of murder. Zimmerman could have started the confrontation, meaning to intimidate or scare Martin and hold him until the police arrived. Then Martin reacted by getting violent, Zimmerman felt his life was threatened and used the gun. Then Zimmerman, panicking and not wanting to go to jail, lied to the police about how the confrontation started.

All of that could have happened, and if so, Zimmerman is guilty of stupidity and starting a confrontation (I think he's a racist as well) but he is NOT guilty of murder or manslaughter. To me, he is only guilty for sure if it can be proven that he did not fear for his life. That's why Witness #12 has so much importance to me. If Zimmerman is found guilty simply because he is caught in a lie, that might lead to an unjust result. So I almost hope that this girl's testimony is not allowed.

What you describe here sounds like false arrest or, at the very least, false imprisonment. If someone tried that with me and laid a hand on me in the process they could expect that I would not be agreeable, having committed no crime. If they were of the mindset that I was a criminal and they were out for justice they'd likely be the one not only to initiate the confrontation but escalate it; assuming he, like Zimmerman, had a desire to be a cop, a history of this type of behavior and, in the words of a close friend, was "mad as hell and wasn't going to take it anymore."In that scenario, I'd have no problem responding with physical force.

If he then shot me dead what absolves him of manslaughter?

He was not charged with manslaughter.. But 'no' is the answer to your question. What would absolve him, is if he was in fear for his life, or serious bodily injury when he shot you. If he started the fight, then he would have to try to stop the fight at some point, or try to flee in order for the self defense claim to work. But he could start a fight, and kill someone, and still be acting in self defense.

 

[Witz]

Witness #12.

Yeah, laugh at the witnesses you don't agree with, stick with the ones you do.

Not that you care since you've already made your mind up, but witness 12 initially said she couldn't see who was on top of who, but then later changed her story to say that it was Zimmerman - not because she saw him specifically but rather because his 'shape' matched the person on top. If I'm the lawyer for Zimmerman, you can have that witness - I'll take the witness (Witness 6) that hasn't changed their story that it was Martin on top from moments after the shooting and once again when questioned again days later.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Tim, the pos affidavit said Zimmerman acted with a depraved mind because:

Second-Degree Murder: Depraved Mind in Tampa, FL

There are two kinds of second-degree murder in the state of Florida: depraved mind murder and accomplice felony murder. Depraved mind murder covers the unlawful killing of another person by an imminently dangerous act that demonstrates a "depraved mind" with an extreme lack of regard for human life. This type of second-degree murder punishes extremely reckless, uncaring acts that lead to death. It does not apply to mere reckless indifference toward human life; that is covered by manslaughter laws. It also does not apply to murders committed with intent to kill; that is covered by first degree murder. Instead, committing an imminently dangerous act with a depraved mind means committing an act an ordinary person would know is reasonably likely to lead to death or serious injury, doing so with ill will or evil intent (but not intent to kill), and doing so in a way that demonstrates a complete indifference to human life. This is known in other parts of the country as depraved indifference homicide or depraved heart murder.

link

Thanks for the explanation. But look: if a jury decides that ZImmerman was not acting in self-defense, then of course they're going to convict him. I understand this language is out there. But for Carolina Hustler to suggest that this language would prevent a jury from convicting Zimmerman even if they were convinced that Zimmerman was not in fear of his own life...is insane.

Law says to convict someone of second degree murder, you must prove he acted of a depraved mind.. He's charged with second degree murder no?

 

[timschochet]

The last two posts before this one are both examples of the extremism which is so pervasive in this thread:

TexasFan02 is so intent on the conviction of George Zimmerman that he completely dismisses even the concept of self-defense. He wrote, "he killed someone, he's a murderer." This is not the first time TexasFan has written this, ignoring the entire history of civilized law.

Carolina Hustler is so intent on the acquittal of George Zimmerman that he argues that even if it were proven that Zimmerman was not in fear of his own life when he shot Trayvon Martin, that wouldn't be enough to convict Zimmerman. The prosecution needs to prove a "depraved mind", whatever that means.

I have chosen not to respond directly to either of these gentlemen at this point because...they've gone insane. There is no reasoning with them. It's useless to argue with people who are this intractable.

The specific wording of the law says "depraved mind".. Need to prove depraved mind in order to get a 2nd degree murder conviction.. Has nothing to do with me.. And if Zimmerman did murder Trayvon, I have no problem with him being convicted. I only argue against the assertions you're making when they are wrong..

I wrote that if it were proven that Zimmerman was not in fear of his life, he would be convicted of murder. You responded that this is not the case, that even BEYOND proving that self-defense wasn't a factor, that the prosecution would also have to prove a "depraved mind" as if the lack of self-defense didn't prove it already to any reasonable person. That puts you over the pale, in the extremist camp. You have yet to contribute a single thoughtful post in this thread and I strongly doubt you ever will. You simply take whatever is the most strident pro-Zimmerman position and repeat it endlessly. Though TexasFan is also extreme IMO, at least he has a sense of humor. You offer nothing.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

Let's talk about witness 12:

But in another interview with investigators six days later, the paper reported, she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top.

"I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," the woman, "Witness 12," said.

Now earlier I wrote that I wanted to know the actual sizes of Zimmerman and Martin, and I was told it doesn't make any difference. Well, it might make a difference. I'd sure like to know. As Christo points out, this woman could be referring to the various news reports which had Zimmerman at 250 lbs- he obviously doesn't weigh that much.

BUT- supposing there IS a significant weight difference and Zimmerman weighs more than Martin, and supposing this woman testifies in court that she is "definitely certain" that Zimmerman was the one on top- and supposing the jury believes her and not Zimmerman- if all this happens then Zimmerman is going to be convicted. Because it really doesn't matter if Zimmerman has injuries or even how the fight started at that point. If Zimmerman was on top that would indicate to most reasonable people that he was in control of the situation, and if he was in control, he would not have feared for his life. Therefore the killing of Martin becomes not self-defense, but murder.

So this woman's testimony is absoututely crucial, IMO.

A half-decent defense attorney will rip this witness to shreds. She seems to have little idea what she saw, and changed her story after the fact? She compared her memory of what she vaguely saw to pictures she saw on TV? The pictures on TV looked nothing like the actual participants? If anything, on a fleeting glance, most people would probably think Martin was larger based simply on height.

Tim. If the prosecution were to hang its hat on this they would be in serious trouble. There's no way her testimony should be given any weight.

We'll see. What you and Rich wrote is conjecture. We won't know for sure until we hear this woman testify. IF she testifies.

The woman's testimony is more conjecture as I see it. Her initial position was that she couldn't tell and then she changes her position based on some photos she saw days later. Difficult to see most jurors giving her much credence. She's got one little bit of the story and flip-flopping won't play well.

Wasn't it Zimmerman who had grass stains on his back. Wasn't it Zimmerman with the broken nose. Wasn't it Zimmerman with the cuts on the back of his head. Not sure how in the hell anyone still thinks it was Zimmerman on top. Too many people clinging to their preconceived theories.

Different people can be on top during a fight.

Keep on clinging!

Zimmerman still in jail for murder? Yeah, I thought so.

you must constantly embarrass yourself..Can you tell me which jail he is in?

 

[Witz]

If Zimmerman made contradictory statements, that could be very problematic for him, obviously.

Even so, I can see only two ways that the prosecution wins this case:

1. There is a credible and convincing witness which states, unequivocally, that Zimmerman was on top of Martin at the time of the shooting. Such a witness would make all other evidence that might exonerate Zimmerman completely irrelevant.

2. When Zimmerman is cross-examined on the stand, he is found by the jury to be a liar about what happened.

Short of either of these, any reasonable person would, I believe, have to exonerate Zimmerman.

Tim - are you still speaking about witness 12? The only witness (witness 6) that hasn't changed their story on who they saw on who stated that Martin was on Zimmerman. This is what they said initially and what they said when questioned again.

Let's talk about witness 12:

But in another interview with investigators six days later, the paper reported, she was sure: It was Zimmerman on top.

"I know after seeing the TV of what's happening, comparing their sizes, I think Zimmerman was definitely on top because of his size," the woman, "Witness 12," said.

Now earlier I wrote that I wanted to know the actual sizes of Zimmerman and Martin, and I was told it doesn't make any difference. Well, it might make a difference. I'd sure like to know. As Christo points out, this woman could be referring to the various news reports which had Zimmerman at 250 lbs- he obviously doesn't weigh that much.

BUT- supposing there IS a significant weight difference and Zimmerman weighs more than Martin, and supposing this woman testifies in court that she is "definitely certain" that Zimmerman was the one on top- and supposing the jury believes her and not Zimmerman- if all this happens then Zimmerman is going to be convicted. Because it really doesn't matter if Zimmerman has injuries or even how the fight started at that point. If Zimmerman was on top that would indicate to most reasonable people that he was in control of the situation, and if he was in control, he would not have feared for his life. Therefore the killing of Martin becomes not self-defense, but murder.

So this woman's testimony is absoututely crucial, IMO.

I'm not so sure about that with regards to witness 12. In their initial statement, they noted they saw two people on the ground but didn't know who was on top and only later said it was Zimmerman due to the size based on what they saw on tv (not that they clearly saw Zimmerman as the one being on top - their 'view' was based on the two individuals size). Witness 6 on the other hand, hasn't changed their story at all - they have always maintained that Martin was on top of Zimmerman.

I said that IF witness 12 testifies and IF she is found credible, Zimmerman will be convicted, as well he should in that case. I agree that this is a long way off from happening at this point. On the other hand, I don't think you can dismiss the possibility as easily as you're doing.

Sorry if it came across that way but what I was trying to say is if you were going to hang your hat on the testimony of a witness and their statements of who was on top of who, you wouldn't take witness 12 - you would take witness 6. Based on the 'IF' statements you have laid out, for Witness 12 to be found credible (who didn't see who was who initially and then changed their statement based on the individuals shape) then that would mean that witness 6 would have been deemed not credible. Who knows - it could happen but I just don't see that happening.

 

[Chairshot]

But he could start a fight, and kill someone, and still be acting in self defense.

Did that feel as stupid to type as it did to read?What a horrible set of laws they have going there in the Sunshine State...

 

[Carolina Hustler]

The last two posts before this one are both examples of the extremism which is so pervasive in this thread:

TexasFan02 is so intent on the conviction of George Zimmerman that he completely dismisses even the concept of self-defense. He wrote, "he killed someone, he's a murderer." This is not the first time TexasFan has written this, ignoring the entire history of civilized law.

Carolina Hustler is so intent on the acquittal of George Zimmerman that he argues that even if it were proven that Zimmerman was not in fear of his own life when he shot Trayvon Martin, that wouldn't be enough to convict Zimmerman. The prosecution needs to prove a "depraved mind", whatever that means.

I have chosen not to respond directly to either of these gentlemen at this point because...they've gone insane. There is no reasoning with them. It's useless to argue with people who are this intractable.

The specific wording of the law says "depraved mind".. Need to prove depraved mind in order to get a 2nd degree murder conviction.. Has nothing to do with me.. And if Zimmerman did murder Trayvon, I have no problem with him being convicted. I only argue against the assertions you're making when they are wrong..

I wrote that if it were proven that Zimmerman was not in fear of his life, he would be convicted of murder. You responded that this is not the case, that even BEYOND proving that self-defense wasn't a factor, that the prosecution would also have to prove a "depraved mind" as if the lack of self-defense didn't prove it already to any reasonable person. That puts you over the pale, in the extremist camp. You have yet to contribute a single thoughtful post in this thread and I strongly doubt you ever will. You simply take whatever is the most strident pro-Zimmerman position and repeat it endlessly. Though TexasFan is also extreme IMO, at least he has a sense of humor. You offer nothing.

He can be without self defense claim, and without proving depraved mind, be guilty of manslaughter and not murder..You're wrong..

 

[TexanFan02]

The last two posts before this one are both examples of the extremism which is so pervasive in this thread:

TexasFan02 is so intent on the conviction of George Zimmerman that he completely dismisses even the concept of self-defense. He wrote, "he killed someone, he's a murderer." This is not the first time TexasFan has written this, ignoring the entire history of civilized law.

Carolina Hustler is so intent on the acquittal of George Zimmerman that he argues that even if it were proven that Zimmerman was not in fear of his own life when he shot Trayvon Martin, that wouldn't be enough to convict Zimmerman. The prosecution needs to prove a "depraved mind", whatever that means.

I have chosen not to respond directly to either of these gentlemen at this point because...they've gone insane. There is no reasoning with them. It's useless to argue with people who are this intractable.

The specific wording of the law says "depraved mind".. Need to prove depraved mind in order to get a 2nd degree murder conviction.. Has nothing to do with me.. And if Zimmerman did murder Trayvon, I have no problem with him being convicted. I only argue against the assertions you're making when they are wrong..

I wrote that if it were proven that Zimmerman was not in fear of his life, he would be convicted of murder. You responded that this is not the case, that even BEYOND proving that self-defense wasn't a factor, that the prosecution would also have to prove a "depraved mind" as if the lack of self-defense didn't prove it already to any reasonable person. That puts you over the pale, in the extremist camp. You have yet to contribute a single thoughtful post in this thread and I strongly doubt you ever will. You simply take whatever is the most strident pro-Zimmerman position and repeat it endlessly. Though TexasFan is also extreme IMO, at least he has a sense of humor. You offer nothing.

Oh, and by the way, Timmy, I don't respond to you because:

Tld'r

and mostly

This thread is not all about you.

 

[Carolina Hustler]

But he could start a fight, and kill someone, and still be acting in self defense.

Did that feel as stupid to type as it did to read?What a horrible set of laws they have going there in the Sunshine State...

2 people can willingly enter into a physical confrontation, and one at some point want it to stop. If the one that wants the fight to stop, trys to get away, or pleads for help yet the other won't stop, if he feels like his life is threatened, he is within his rights to defend himself with deadly force.. I can imagine plenty of scenarios where I see that as reasonable. Not saying it definitely fits the situation, just saying it's not an unreasonable perspective under certain circumstances..

 

[jon_mx]

This post is hidden because you have chosen to ignore posts by TexanFan02.

I had forgotten why I did this. The last few posts reminded me.

 

[Christo]

But he could start a fight, and kill someone, and still be acting in self defense.

Did that feel as stupid to type as it did to read?What a horrible set of laws they have going there in the Sunshine State...

You do realize that lots of states have similar laws, right? Even if you do start a fight, that doesn't give the other guy the ability to do with you as he pleases.

 

[timschochet]

The last two posts before this one are both examples of the extremism which is so pervasive in this thread:

TexasFan02 is so intent on the conviction of George Zimmerman that he completely dismisses even the concept of self-defense. He wrote, "he killed someone, he's a murderer." This is not the first time TexasFan has written this, ignoring the entire history of civilized law.

Carolina Hustler is so intent on the acquittal of George Zimmerman that he argues that even if it were proven that Zimmerman was not in fear of his own life when he shot Trayvon Martin, that wouldn't be enough to convict Zimmerman. The prosecution needs to prove a "depraved mind", whatever that means.

I have chosen not to respond directly to either of these gentlemen at this point because...they've gone insane. There is no reasoning with them. It's useless to argue with people who are this intractable.

The specific wording of the law says "depraved mind".. Need to prove depraved mind in order to get a 2nd degree murder conviction.. Has nothing to do with me.. And if Zimmerman did murder Trayvon, I have no problem with him being convicted. I only argue against the assertions you're making when they are wrong..

I wrote that if it were proven that Zimmerman was not in fear of his life, he would be convicted of murder. You responded that this is not the case, that even BEYOND proving that self-defense wasn't a factor, that the prosecution would also have to prove a "depraved mind" as if the lack of self-defense didn't prove it already to any reasonable person. That puts you over the pale, in the extremist camp. You have yet to contribute a single thoughtful post in this thread and I strongly doubt you ever will. You simply take whatever is the most strident pro-Zimmerman position and repeat it endlessly. Though TexasFan is also extreme IMO, at least he has a sense of humor. You offer nothing.

Oh, and by the way, Timmy, I don't respond to you because:

Tld'r

and mostly

This thread is not all about you.

This thread is not about me at all.Your first response was more than enough anyhow. You wrote, "He killed someone, he's a murderer."