Florida boy killed by Neighborhood Watch (4 Viewers)

[cstu]

What do people that want "Justice for trayvon" actually think is justice in this case?

Young black men no longer being considered "suspicious" in our society simply because they are young black men.

Not even if break ins in the neighborhood have all been by young black men?

So its ok to hassle to members of a group because of actions of other members of that group?

If you set up a Neighborhood Watch where people are supposed to walk around looking for suspicious behavior then I think it's ok to do what GZ did. From what we know he actually did I don't think it was harassment. I'll admit there's a very fine line here and the Neighborhood Watch power could easily be abused.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

What do people that want "Justice for trayvon" actually think is justice in this case?

Young black men no longer being considered "suspicious" in our society simply because they are young black men.

Not even if break ins in the neighborhood have all been by young black men?

So its ok to hassle to members of a group because of actions of other members of that group?

If a certain race or group is known for certain crimes you'd be silly to ignore the signs wouldnt you?

 

[Jojo the circus boy]

What do you think Jason Alexander thought of the verdict?

link

 

[Rayderr]

What do you think Jason Alexander thought of the verdict?

link

He's still trying to get over that Sugar Ray Leonard incident.

 

[Abrantes]

What do people that want "Justice for trayvon" actually think is justice in this case?

Young black men no longer being considered "suspicious" in our society simply because they are young black men.

Convicting Zimmerman wouldn't have changed that. It would've just lowered the bar in order to treat him as poorly as the black tend to be treated. What people should strive for is the opposite - getting to a point where the law treats blacks as fairly as Zimmerman was treated here.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

"He has always feared for his safety, and we have always feared for his safety and our safety as a family," Robert Zimmerman, Jr., Zimmerman's brother, told CNN. "Clearly, he is a free man in the eyes of the court, but he's going to be looking around his shoulder for the rest of his life."

So this case changed nothing.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I definitely empathize...but damned if I'm going to accept someone saying justice was not served here without someone giving me a real alternative to "not guilty" in this case.

Did you read any of Ramsey's posts? Without discounting any of Zimmerman's statements (i.e. believing he believed what he said) there were certainly ways to interpret the Florida law for Manslaughter such that the threat to Zimmerman was not sufficient to allow for his actions. I think based on the jury instructions and the fact that whatever the question about manslaughter was never answered that "not guilty" is the obvious, so I can't really debate with verdict

But (unless I completely misunderstood these posts) it doesn't take much "goal post" moving with the legal explanations of the law as it exists and has been applied to get to manslaughter.

 

[[icon]]

yes if you had grown up black, you would perceive these events very differently. If you had been followed before by someone who was suspicious of you because you were black and nothing else, you would perceive these events very differently.

Be thankful that the reaction in the black community is so foreign to you that you do not understand how someone could react that way. That means you're privileged in this culture.

Anyone would be annoyed by someone following/watching them, but it is called a neighborhood watch for a reason. It had to do with a stranger wandering around suspeciously then it did skin color. Anyone who thinks it has to do with skin color must be a mind reader, but Zimmerman never made it a point.

I love how everyone turns a blind eye to the underlying reason for the the suspicion.

Look... does it suck that the situation exists that black people are under increased suspicion due to their race? Yes... it's a damn shame to be honest. However black people have as much or more to blame for this predicament than the people who cast a wary eye in their direction. Stop engaging in criminal activity at a rate that is orders of magnitude above any other race, and perhaps you won't be viewed as a race with a predisposition toward crime.

It's an unpopular thing to say... but it's the reality of the situation.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

.... They both made huge and ultimately incorrect conclusions about each other. ...

Martin may have made many mistakes, but how was his characterization of Zimmerman incorrect?

 

[Rayderr]

.... They both made huge and ultimately incorrect conclusions about each other. ...

Martin may have made many mistakes, but how was his characterization of Zimmerman incorrect?

Well, he wasn't a cracker.

 

[derek245583]

I'll tell you what the problem is coming from the white side of things...most conservatives have the mindset of, "regardless of your upbringing, environment, etc...you are responsible for yourself. You have no one else to blame or depend upon but yourself. If you fail, it's on you."

Why is this a "problem"?

Arent you ultimately responsible for yourself? Wouldnt the world be a better place if everyone had this attitude? I dont see the problem here. You got dealt a bad hand, tough break...life is full of tough breaks.

What am I missing?

 

[Shawnky]

yes if you had grown up black, you would perceive these events very differently. If you had been followed before by someone who was suspicious of you because you were black and nothing else, you would perceive these events very differently.

Be thankful that the reaction in the black community is so foreign to you that you do not understand how someone could react that way. That means you're privileged in this culture.

Anyone would be annoyed by someone following/watching them, but it is called a neighborhood watch for a reason. It had to do with a stranger wandering around suspeciously then it did skin color. Anyone who thinks it has to do with skin color must be a mind reader, but Zimmerman never made it a point.

I love how everyone turns a blind eye to the underlying reason for the the suspicion.

Look... does it suck that the situation exists that black people are under increased suspicion due to their race? Yes... it's a damn shame to be honest. However black people have as much or more to blame for this predicament than the people who cast a wary eye in their direction. Stop engaging in criminal activity at a rate that is orders of magnitude above any other race, and perhaps you won't be viewed as a race with a predisposition toward crime.

It's an unpopular thing to say... but it's the reality of the situation.

You obviously grew up in the suburbs.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

If a certain race or group is known for certain crimes you'd be silly to ignore the signs wouldnt you?

So as you assert that it would be silly to not be prejudice, what other signs should we look for with you?

 

[[icon]]

Feds Weigh Charging Zimmerman in Killing

SANFORD, Fla.—The Justice Department said Sunday it would weigh whether to file federal criminal charges against George Zimmerman after his acquittal in a shooting that set off a searing national debate over racial justice and self-defense laws.

Its statement came as groups including the NAACP and the American Civil Liberties Union urged U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder to open a federal civil-rights case against Mr. Zimmerman, the former neighborhood-watch captain who shot and killed Trayvon Martin.

"Experienced federal prosecutors will determine whether the evidence reveals a prosecutable violation" of civil-rights laws, a department spokeswoman said in a statement. The department has had an open investigation into the death of Mr. Martin since last year.

Mr. Holder plans to address the Zimmerman case Tuesday when he speaks to the NAACP in Orlando, according to an official familiar with his plans.

Mr. Zimmerman, a 29-year-old Hispanic, faced second-degree murder and manslaughter charges for shooting Mr. Martin, a 17-year-old African-American, in a gated community here in February 2012. Prosecutors argued that Mr. Zimmerman profiled the teen as a criminal, pursued him and provoked the deadly confrontation. Defense lawyers said Mr. Zimmerman was attacked by Mr. Martin and fired at him in self-defense.

The initial six-week delay in arresting Mr. Zimmerman triggered nationwide protests and accusations of racial injustice.

The NAACP and other groups blasted Saturday's not-guilty verdict as a miscarriage of justice.

"Those of us who are fathers, particularly of African-American boys, find it shockingly frightening," said Hilary Shelton, director of the NAACP's Washington bureau. The message, he said, is, "Not only can we do this, we can get away with it."

Yet legal experts question whether such a case will be filed, given the high burden of proof prosecutors would face. They would likely have to show Mr. Zimmerman was motivated by racial hatred when he shot Mr. Martin, said Paul Callan, an attorney at Callan, Koster, Brady & Brennan LLP in New York.

"I think you could make out the case that unconscious racism caused Mr. Zimmerman to profile" Mr. Martin, said Kenneth Nunn, assistant director of the Criminal Justice Center at the University of Florida's Levin College of Law. "But there doesn't seem to be enough there to justify a claim that racial animus was the predicate behind Trayvon Martin's death."

Attorneys for Mr. Martin's family said they are considering filing a civil lawsuit against Mr. Zimmerman, though they haven't made a decision. "We're still trying to make sense of the verdict in the criminal case," said Benjamin Crump, a lawyer for the family. "We'll be talking about our options going forward in the coming days."

Such a case would face high hurdles, legal observers say. Mr. Zimmerman can seek immunity from civil lawsuits under Florida's so-called Stand Your Ground law—something his attorney said he planned to do. "In effect, there will be no civil suits," said Tamara Lave, a University of Miami law professor. "If there is a civil suit filed, it will be dismissed, and future ones will be barred."

In the verdict's aftermath, protests erupted in cities across the country, from San Francisco to Sanford. Nearly all were peaceful, though a demonstration in Oakland resulted in some vandalism, according to a spokesman for the city's police department.

President Barack Obama on Sunday said "a jury has spoken" and asked the public to respect the Martin family's "call for calm reflection." He added, "I know this case has elicited strong passions. And in the wake of the verdict, I know those passions may be running even higher."

The buildup to Mr. Zimmerman's murder trial featured extensive commentary about the roles that race and Florida's controversial 2005 Stand Your Ground law played in the case. In the end, however, neither figured much in the courtroom battle.

Mr. Zimmerman's attorneys prevailed without relying on the provisions of the "Stand Your Ground" gun-rights law, which eliminates the duty for a person to retreat in the face of danger before using lethal force. Under the measure, they had the option of seeking a court ruling, before any trial, that Mr. Zimmerman acted legally. But instead, his lawyers mounted a traditional self-defense case—one that legal analysts say benefited from missteps by police and the prosecution.

Police investigators made mistakes including failing to preserve the crime scene or to widely canvass the neighborhood to interview witnesses in timely fashion, Ms. Lave said. Prosecutors were left "working with one hand tied behind their back," she said.

A Sanford Police Department spokesman declined to comment. Former Sanford police chief Bill Lee, who was forced out amid the furor over Mr. Martin's case, has previously defended the integrity of the officers' investigation and said the department lacked probable cause to arrest Mr. Zimmerman.

Prosecutors made missteps as well, Ms. Lave said. Among them: introducing Mr. Zimmerman's statements to police into evidence. Their aim was to point out inconsistencies in his accounts. But the move allowed Mr. Zimmerman's lawyers to avoid calling him to the stand and subjecting him to cross-examination.

At a news conference Saturday night, state attorney Angela Corey defended her office's handling of the case. She said the case presented several challenges, including that the fatal encounter occurred in a public space, where both individuals had a right to be, rather than a dwelling.

The issue of race, which infused so much of the public debate over the case, rarely entered the courtroom discussion. Circuit Judge Debra Nelson barred prosecutors from saying Mr. Zimmerman racially profiled Mr. Martin. The topic mostly remained unspoken, such as when jurors heard phone calls Mr. Zimmerman placed to police to report suspicious people, all of whom were black.

Yet race could have been a factor in the jury's verdict, Ms. Lave said. The six female jurors were all white, except one who was Hispanic. "You want to have people of color on your jury because sometimes their experience with police is something that white people don't have," she said.

Wow. That's a horrible precedent to start setting.

 

[HERBERT THE HIPPO]

Does GZ have any recourse against the state of Florida for "frivilous prosecution" and screwing up the rest of his life?

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

.... They both made huge and ultimately incorrect conclusions about each other. ...

Martin may have made many mistakes, but how was his characterization of Zimmerman incorrect?

Well, he wasn't a cracker.

You have a link to Zimmerman's census form?

 

[timschochet]

A lot of you continue to accept Zimmermans tale as if it were Gospel. For the umpteenth time: there's no evidence that Martin initiated the fight. There's no evidence that Martin did serious damage to Zimmerman. There's no evidence that Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life. In fact, all of the evidence we have argues against these points. So please stop arguing as if these points were true. We have no idea if they are true or not, and never will. His acquittal doesn't make them any more true.

 

[TobiasFunke]

What do people that want "Justice for trayvon" actually think is justice in this case?

Young black men no longer being considered "suspicious" in our society simply because they are young black men.

Not even if break ins in the neighborhood have all been by young black men?

So its ok to hassle to members of a group because of actions of other members of that group?

If you set up a Neighborhood Watch where people are supposed to walk around looking for suspicious behavior then I think it's ok to do what GZ did. From what we know he actually did I don't think it was harassment. I'll admit there's a very fine line here and the Neighborhood Watch power could easily be abused.

I'm not aware of anyone anywhere ever saying it's OK for a neighborhood watch to do anything but observe and report. At no point are you ever supposed to confront anyone. Anything else is not "watching," it's vigilantism. It's not a "very fine line." It's a huge, bright, impossible to miss line. It should be very easy for anyone who's not a complete ####ing idiot to cross it. Observe. Report. Don't do or say anything aimed at anyone you consider suspicious.

I don't know enough about the facts and the Florida standards to know if Zimmerman was guilty of a crime. But I do know enough of the facts to know that he is guilty of being a complete ####ing idiot. Very fine line? Come on.

 

[Rayderr]

.... They both made huge and ultimately incorrect conclusions about each other. ...

Martin may have made many mistakes, but how was his characterization of Zimmerman incorrect?

Well, he wasn't a cracker.

You have a link to Zimmerman's census form?

He's hispanic, no? Maybe he just had a nice tan in court. What's the pantone color range to be white?

 

[[icon]]

yes if you had grown up black, you would perceive these events very differently. If you had been followed before by someone who was suspicious of you because you were black and nothing else, you would perceive these events very differently.

Be thankful that the reaction in the black community is so foreign to you that you do not understand how someone could react that way. That means you're privileged in this culture.

Anyone would be annoyed by someone following/watching them, but it is called a neighborhood watch for a reason. It had to do with a stranger wandering around suspeciously then it did skin color. Anyone who thinks it has to do with skin color must be a mind reader, but Zimmerman never made it a point.

I love how everyone turns a blind eye to the underlying reason for the the suspicion.

Look... does it suck that the situation exists that black people are under increased suspicion due to their race? Yes... it's a damn shame to be honest. However black people have as much or more to blame for this predicament than the people who cast a wary eye in their direction. Stop engaging in criminal activity at a rate that is orders of magnitude above any other race, and perhaps you won't be viewed as a race with a predisposition toward crime.

It's an unpopular thing to say... but it's the reality of the situation.

You obviously grew up in the suburbs.

I grew up in New England wearing hand me down kmart clothing and living a very lean lifestyle. I certainly did NOT have a privileged up bringing.

Again, the black community is as much to blame as anyone for the culture which they continue to build around themselves. Projecting blame outward only perpetuates the problem.

Stop robbing and killing people and people will stop thinking you're likely to rob and kill people.

 

[ArbyMelt]

What do people that want "Justice for trayvon" actually think is justice in this case?

Young black men no longer being considered "suspicious" in our society simply because they are young black men.

While I agree in general, in this case, it was dark and rainy and Travyon had a hoodie on. He was "suspicious" because he was wandering around in the rain and looked to be up "to no good". GZ thought he "looked black" but wasn't sure since it was dark/rainy out. I don't think he was suspicious because of his race, but because of him wandering around in the rain, and around a time they have had many burglaries.

The lead investigator interviewed dozens of people for the FBI investigation into the civil rights/racial end of this, and found zero evidence of racism on the part of GZ.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

If a certain race or group is known for certain crimes you'd be silly to ignore the signs wouldnt you?

So as you assert that it would be silly to not be prejudice, what other signs should we look for with you?

Before investigating a situation?

 

[Bigboy10182000]

yes if you had grown up black, you would perceive these events very differently. If you had been followed before by someone who was suspicious of you because you were black and nothing else, you would perceive these events very differently.

Be thankful that the reaction in the black community is so foreign to you that you do not understand how someone could react that way. That means you're privileged in this culture.

Anyone would be annoyed by someone following/watching them, but it is called a neighborhood watch for a reason. It had to do with a stranger wandering around suspeciously then it did skin color. Anyone who thinks it has to do with skin color must be a mind reader, but Zimmerman never made it a point.

I love how everyone turns a blind eye to the underlying reason for the the suspicion.

Look... does it suck that the situation exists that black people are under increased suspicion due to their race? Yes... it's a damn shame to be honest. However black people have as much or more to blame for this predicament than the people who cast a wary eye in their direction. Stop engaging in criminal activity at a rate that is orders of magnitude above any other race, and perhaps you won't be viewed as a race with a predisposition toward crime.

It's an unpopular thing to say... but it's the reality of the situation.

You obviously grew up in the suburbs.

I didnt and I agree with him.

 

[Billy Bats]

A lot of you continue to accept Zimmermans tale as if it were Gospel. For the umpteenth time: there's no evidence that Martin initiated the fight. There's no evidence that Martin did serious damage to Zimmerman. There's no evidence that Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life. In fact, all of the evidence we have argues against these points. So please stop arguing as if these points were true. We have no idea if they are true or not, and never will. His acquittal doesn't make them any more true.

Where can I find this evidence?

 

[Bigboy10182000]

yes if you had grown up black, you would perceive these events very differently. If you had been followed before by someone who was suspicious of you because you were black and nothing else, you would perceive these events very differently.

Be thankful that the reaction in the black community is so foreign to you that you do not understand how someone could react that way. That means you're privileged in this culture.

Anyone would be annoyed by someone following/watching them, but it is called a neighborhood watch for a reason. It had to do with a stranger wandering around suspeciously then it did skin color. Anyone who thinks it has to do with skin color must be a mind reader, but Zimmerman never made it a point.

I love how everyone turns a blind eye to the underlying reason for the the suspicion.

Look... does it suck that the situation exists that black people are under increased suspicion due to their race? Yes... it's a damn shame to be honest. However black people have as much or more to blame for this predicament than the people who cast a wary eye in their direction. Stop engaging in criminal activity at a rate that is orders of magnitude above any other race, and perhaps you won't be viewed as a race with a predisposition toward crime.

It's an unpopular thing to say... but it's the reality of the situation.

You obviously grew up in the suburbs.

I grew up in New England wearing hand me down kmart clothing and living a very lean lifestyle. I certainly did NOT have a privileged up bringing.

Again, the black community is as much to blame as anyone for the culture which they continue to build around themselves. Projecting blame outward only perpetuates the problem.

Stop robbing and killing people and people will stop thinking you're likely to rob and kill people.

 

[RCon]

A lot of you continue to accept Zimmermans tale as if it were Gospel. For the umpteenth time: there's no evidence that Martin initiated the fight. There's no evidence that Martin did serious damage to Zimmerman. There's no evidence that Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life. In fact, all of the evidence we have argues against these points. So please stop arguing as if these points were true. We have no idea if they are true or not, and never will. His acquittal doesn't make them any more true.

Maybe I missed something, but I don't remember reading the bolded before. What evidence is there that argues against "Martin initiated the fight", "Martin did serious damage* to Zimmerman", and "Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life". There may not be a lot of evidence supporting these particular statements, but I don't particularly remember seeing any evidence that specifically argues against them.

* Obvious caveat here that "serious damage" is a fairly relative term.

 

[ArbyMelt]

A lot of you continue to accept Zimmermans tale as if it were Gospel. For the umpteenth time: there's no evidence that Martin initiated the fight. There's no evidence that Martin did serious damage to Zimmerman. There's no evidence that Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life. In fact, all of the evidence we have argues against these points. So please stop arguing as if these points were true. We have no idea if they are true or not, and never will. His acquittal doesn't make them any more true.

Let's see, should I believe Tim the internet expert or Dr. Vincent Di Maio, the leading forensic expert in the world. Tough call.

 

[timschochet]

A lot of you continue to accept Zimmermans tale as if it were Gospel. For the umpteenth time: there's no evidence that Martin initiated the fight. There's no evidence that Martin did serious damage to Zimmerman. There's no evidence that Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life. In fact, all of the evidence we have argues against these points. So please stop arguing as if these points were true. We have no idea if they are true or not, and never will. His acquittal doesn't make them any more true.

Where can I find this evidence?

They were all in the trial. Zimmerman's lies and contradictions. His lack of serious injuries. These are the main ones. They don't prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt but they certainly suggest it.

 

[[icon]]

A lot of you continue to accept Zimmermans tale as if it were Gospel. For the umpteenth time: there's no evidence that Martin initiated the fight. There's no evidence that Martin did serious damage to Zimmerman. There's no evidence that Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life. In fact, all of the evidence we have argues against these points. So please stop arguing as if these points were true. We have no idea if they are true or not, and never will. His acquittal doesn't make them any more true.

Let's see, should I believe Tim the internet expert or Dr. Vincent Di Maio, the leading forensic expert in the world. Tough call.

Has this been added to the "Things tim is an expert in" thread?

 

[timschochet]

A lot of you continue to accept Zimmermans tale as if it were Gospel. For the umpteenth time: there's no evidence that Martin initiated the fight. There's no evidence that Martin did serious damage to Zimmerman. There's no evidence that Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life. In fact, all of the evidence we have argues against these points. So please stop arguing as if these points were true. We have no idea if they are true or not, and never will. His acquittal doesn't make them any more true.

Let's see, should I believe Tim the internet expert or Dr. Vincent Di Maio, the leading forensic expert in the world. Tough call.

Maio never testified that Zimmerman suffered serious damage. He never testified to any of the three points I just listed.

 

[timschochet]

A lot of you continue to accept Zimmermans tale as if it were Gospel. For the umpteenth time: there's no evidence that Martin initiated the fight. There's no evidence that Martin did serious damage to Zimmerman. There's no evidence that Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life. In fact, all of the evidence we have argues against these points. So please stop arguing as if these points were true. We have no idea if they are true or not, and never will. His acquittal doesn't make them any more true.

Maybe I missed something, but I don't remember reading the bolded before. What evidence is there that argues against "Martin initiated the fight", "Martin did serious damage* to Zimmerman", and "Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life". There may not be a lot of evidence supporting these particular statements, but I don't particularly remember seeing any evidence that specifically argues against them.* Obvious caveat here that "serious damage" is a fairly relative term.

It was all presented at trial.

 

[RCon]

A lot of you continue to accept Zimmermans tale as if it were Gospel. For the umpteenth time: there's no evidence that Martin initiated the fight. There's no evidence that Martin did serious damage to Zimmerman. There's no evidence that Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life. In fact, all of the evidence we have argues against these points. So please stop arguing as if these points were true. We have no idea if they are true or not, and never will. His acquittal doesn't make them any more true.

Maybe I missed something, but I don't remember reading the bolded before. What evidence is there that argues against "Martin initiated the fight", "Martin did serious damage* to Zimmerman", and "Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life". There may not be a lot of evidence supporting these particular statements, but I don't particularly remember seeing any evidence that specifically argues against them.* Obvious caveat here that "serious damage" is a fairly relative term.

It was all presented at trial.

I didn't watch the trial. I've only read accounts of it. Because I didn't watch it, I'm asking you, specifically, what is the evidence that Zimmerman started the fight? That seems to go against everything I've read.

 

[BroadwayG]

I didn't watch the trial. I've only read accounts of it. Because I didn't watch it, I'm asking you, specifically, what is the evidence that Zimmerman started the fight? That seems to go against everything I've read.

He got out of his car.

 

[ArbyMelt]

A lot of you continue to accept Zimmermans tale as if it were Gospel. For the umpteenth time: there's no evidence that Martin initiated the fight. There's no evidence that Martin did serious damage to Zimmerman. There's no evidence that Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life. In fact, all of the evidence we have argues against these points. So please stop arguing as if these points were true. We have no idea if they are true or not, and never will. His acquittal doesn't make them any more true.

Let's see, should I believe Tim the internet expert or Dr. Vincent Di Maio, the leading forensic expert in the world. Tough call.

Maio never testified that Zimmerman suffered serious damage. He never testified to any of the three points I just listed.

What? He said the medical evidence was consistent with GZ's statements. Where is the medical evidence that contradicts GZ's story? There is none. Thats why they lost. Did you miss the part about people with injuries similar to GZ have died in jail? And they should have taken him to the hospital?

 

[jon_mx]

A lot of you continue to accept Zimmermans tale as if it were Gospel. For the umpteenth time: there's no evidence that Martin initiated the fight. There's no evidence that Martin did serious damage to Zimmerman. There's no evidence that Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life. In fact, all of the evidence we have argues against these points. So please stop arguing as if these points were true. We have no idea if they are true or not, and never will. His acquittal doesn't make them any more true.

Where can I find this evidence?

They were all in the trial. Zimmerman's lies and contradictions. His lack of serious injuries. These are the main ones. They don't prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt but they certainly suggest it.

All logic and evidence indicates Martin approached Zimmerman. And the only witness says it was Martin who started it. Martin had already approached Zimmerman once when he was in the car which is documented on the phone call.

 

[jon_mx]

I didn't watch the trial. I've only read accounts of it. Because I didn't watch it, I'm asking you, specifically, what is the evidence that Zimmerman started the fight? That seems to go against everything I've read.

He got out of his car.

I got out of my car this morning. Somehow I managed not to start a fight.

 

[The Commish]

A lot of you continue to accept Zimmermans tale as if it were Gospel. For the umpteenth time: there's no evidence that Martin initiated the fight. There's no evidence that Martin did serious damage to Zimmerman. There's no evidence that Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life. In fact, all of the evidence we have argues against these points. So please stop arguing as if these points were true. We have no idea if they are true or not, and never will. His acquittal doesn't make them any more true.

This isn't true. We have Zimmerman's statements. They are evidence. The question is how reliable are his statements? How much weight do we put on them? A lot of folks will say "well, it's all we have, so....." That's a simple minded response crafted to win an iFight on a message board IMO.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

.... They both made huge and ultimately incorrect conclusions about each other. ...

Martin may have made many mistakes, but how was his characterization of Zimmerman incorrect?

Well, he wasn't a cracker.

You have a link to Zimmerman's census form?

He's hispanic, no? Maybe he just had a nice tan in court. What's the pantone color range to be white?

Selecting "Hispanic" in the ethnicity box (Question 8) offers some clues as to what he may have chosen in the race options (Question 9) on the census form, but only clues.

 

[timschochet]

yes if you had grown up black, you would perceive these events very differently. If you had been followed before by someone who was suspicious of you because you were black and nothing else, you would perceive these events very differently.

Be thankful that the reaction in the black community is so foreign to you that you do not understand how someone could react that way. That means you're privileged in this culture.

Anyone would be annoyed by someone following/watching them, but it is called a neighborhood watch for a reason. It had to do with a stranger wandering around suspeciously then it did skin color. Anyone who thinks it has to do with skin color must be a mind reader, but Zimmerman never made it a point.

I love how everyone turns a blind eye to the underlying reason for the the suspicion.

Look... does it suck that the situation exists that black people are under increased suspicion due to their race? Yes... it's a damn shame to be honest. However black people have as much or more to blame for this predicament than the people who cast a wary eye in their direction. Stop engaging in criminal activity at a rate that is orders of magnitude above any other race, and perhaps you won't be viewed as a race with a predisposition toward crime.

It's an unpopular thing to say... but it's the reality of the situation.

You obviously grew up in the suburbs.

I grew up in New England wearing hand me down kmart clothing and living a very lean lifestyle. I certainly did NOT have a privileged up bringing.

Again, the black community is as much to blame as anyone for the culture which they continue to build around themselves. Projecting blame outward only perpetuates the problem.

Stop robbing and killing people and people will stop thinking you're likely to rob and kill people.

Not a good posting at all. Icon may have not had a good upbringing, but it's silly for him to compare himself to most black teens. Neither he nor I nor any white person can truly understand what it's like to be black in this country. And while it's true that blacks have a responsibility to improve themselves and stop violence, we as a society also have a responsibility to remove racism from our police and judicial system where it continues to exist.

 

[jon_mx]

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, Martin was the aggressor on starting the fight. You can argue that Zimmerman provolked it by watching/following. But there is zero percent chance Zimmerman initiated the fight.

 

[jon_mx]

There is so much dishonesty on the Martin's side. They would have you believe the guy on top throwing punches is the one screaming for his life for over a minute. There is no intellectual honesty on the Martin-side, just pure emotion.

 

[Ghost Rider]

A lot of you continue to accept Zimmermans tale as if it were Gospel. For the umpteenth time: there's no evidence that Martin initiated the fight. There's no evidence that Martin did serious damage to Zimmerman. There's no evidence that Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life. In fact, all of the evidence we have argues against these points. So please stop arguing as if these points were true. We have no idea if they are true or not, and never will. His acquittal doesn't make them any more true.

Where can I find this evidence?

They were all in the trial. Zimmerman's lies and contradictions. His lack of serious injuries. These are the main ones. They don't prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt but they certainly suggest it.

All logic and evidence indicates Martin approached Zimmerman. And the only witness says it was Martin who started it. Martin had already approached Zimmerman once when he was in the car which is documented on the phone call.

Let's see LHUCKS Jr. answer that one.

 

[[icon]]

Stop robbing and killing people and people will stop thinking you're likely to rob and kill people.

Not a good posting at all. Icon may have not had a good upbringing, but it's silly for him to compare himself to most black teens. Neither he nor I nor any white person can truly understand what it's like to be black in this country.And while it's true that blacks have a responsibility to improve themselves and stop violence, we as a society also have a responsibility to remove racism from our police and judicial system where it continues to exist.

There have been great strides socially to help combat racism that has opened many doors for blacks in the workforce.

Culturally, black acceptance in society as a whole has come MASSIVE distances over the last 40 years.

However, blacks account for as high (or higher) a percentage of crime as they ever have.

It's easy to live in "Timmay's Fantasy Land" and say "We just need to eliminate racism and everything will be okay. However, at this point the bulk of the blame here is on black America. If they start doing their part, the rest of society can continue the progress they've made thus far. Until then... they are the primary force holding themselves back. Period.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

If a certain race or group is known for certain crimes you'd be silly to ignore the signs wouldnt you?

So as you assert that it would be silly to not be prejudice, what other signs should we look for with you?

Before investigating a situation?

It would be silly to not to report you to the authorities as a suspect for "hate crimes" as otherwise would be to ignore the signs.

I need to leave for work, so you get the last word for a while. Will you dig yourself in deeper or wiggle out?

 

[jon_mx]

A lot of you continue to accept Zimmermans tale as if it were Gospel. For the umpteenth time: there's no evidence that Martin initiated the fight. There's no evidence that Martin did serious damage to Zimmerman. There's no evidence that Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life. In fact, all of the evidence we have argues against these points. So please stop arguing as if these points were true. We have no idea if they are true or not, and never will. His acquittal doesn't make them any more true.

Where can I find this evidence?

They were all in the trial. Zimmerman's lies and contradictions. His lack of serious injuries. These are the main ones. They don't prove his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt but they certainly suggest it.

All logic and evidence indicates Martin approached Zimmerman. And the only witness says it was Martin who started it. Martin had already approached Zimmerman once when he was in the car which is documented on the phone call.

Let's see LHUCKS Jr. answer that one.

1) DeeDee indicated Martin approached Zimmerman and asked if he had a problem

2) Zimmerman is on record that Martin appeared when he turned around and confirmed DeeDee's account

3) No way in hell any armed man starts a first fight. There is no way.

4) Zimmerman has been doing this for 8 years, never engaged the suspects.

 

[timschochet]

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, Martin was the aggressor on starting the fight. You can argue that Zimmerman provolked it by watching/following. But there is zero percent chance Zimmerman initiated the fight.

This is simply not true. What evidence do we have as regards who started the fight? (Rich, this is in response to you too.)

Here's what we KNOW:

1. Zimmerman reported Martin as suspicious, and complained that these guys "always get away."

Here's what we THINK we know:

1. Zimmerman was following Martin, and stepped out of his car to do so.

2. Martin was heading home, but refused to run home, despite the urging of Rachel.

Based on this evidence, (which admittedly is pretty slight) it is more likely that Zimmerman was the initiator. EVERYTHING else is complete conjecture, or based on Zimmerman's self-serving narrative of events.

 

[cstu]

A lot of you continue to accept Zimmermans tale as if it were Gospel. For the umpteenth time: there's no evidence that Martin initiated the fight. There's no evidence that Martin did serious damage to Zimmerman. There's no evidence that Zimmerman was ever in fear for his life. In fact, all of the evidence we have argues against these points. So please stop arguing as if these points were true. We have no idea if they are true or not, and never will. His acquittal doesn't make them any more true.

The evidence that no one is disputing is that Trayvon turned around to go confront GZ instead of going into his house. We don't know what happened after that but it's highly unlikely that he went back only to tell him "Sir, I noticed your were following me earlier and I came back to tell you I didn't appreciate it".

 

[timschochet]

Stop robbing and killing people and people will stop thinking you're likely to rob and kill people.

Not a good posting at all. Icon may have not had a good upbringing, but it's silly for him to compare himself to most black teens. Neither he nor I nor any white person can truly understand what it's like to be black in this country.And while it's true that blacks have a responsibility to improve themselves and stop violence, we as a society also have a responsibility to remove racism from our police and judicial system where it continues to exist.

There have been great strides socially to help combat racism that has opened many doors for blacks in the workforce.

Culturally, black acceptance in society as a whole has come MASSIVE distances over the last 40 years.

However, blacks account for as high (or higher) a percentage of crime as they ever have.

It's easy to live in "Timmay's Fantasy Land" and say "We just need to eliminate racism and everything will be okay. However, at this point the bulk of the blame here is on black America. If they start doing their part, the rest of society can continue the progress they've made thus far. Until then... they are the primary force holding themselves back. Period.

You're creating straw arguments and attempting to pretend they're mine. I never wrote that and don't believe it. I simply don't think we can deny that institutionalized racism exists and is part of the problem.

 

[Shawnky]

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, Martin was the aggressor on starting the fight. You can argue that Zimmerman provolked it by watching/following. But there is zero percent chance Zimmerman initiated the fight.

Right.....because you were there.

 

[jon_mx]

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, Martin was the aggressor on starting the fight. You can argue that Zimmerman provolked it by watching/following. But there is zero percent chance Zimmerman initiated the fight.

This is simply not true. What evidence do we have as regards who started the fight? (Rich, this is in response to you too.)

Here's what we KNOW:

1. Zimmerman reported Martin as suspicious, and complained that these guys "always get away."

Here's what we THINK we know:

1. Zimmerman was following Martin, and stepped out of his car to do so.

2. Martin was heading home, but refused to run home, despite the urging of Rachel.

Based on this evidence, (which admittedly is pretty slight) it is more likely that Zimmerman was the initiator. EVERYTHING else is complete conjecture, or based on Zimmerman's self-serving narrative of events.

No sane individual would engage in a fist fight when armed. Martin already approached Zimmerman once. Martin had to be hiding. Martin approached and asked a question, with an obvious chip on his shoulder (maybe justified, but still pissed at the crazy-### cracker). Martin was the one who displayed the most rage and was the one who initiated the fight. There is no other logical conclusion.