What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Game of Thrones, tv only, books don't exist, no backstory...NERDS already ruining a series that hasn't started (22 Viewers)

NewlyRetired said:
That nickname refers to her sharp tongue, not her royal stature.

Her full title is 

Dowager Lady of Highgarden
Click to expand...
I didn't mean to say that Queen was her official title.    The only other thing that could have been "Queen's Justice" last night would have been locking the Dorne ladies up and poisoning the younger one - I guess that could work, too.

 
TheFanatic said:
Her husband was dead. Her son was the king of Highgarden. He was in the Sept when it blew along with his heirs. With no one else left alive to rule Highgarden, she ruled. 
Click to expand...
Highgarden has no king.  

Highgarden is ruled by House Tyrell.  

House Tyrell is ruled by Lord and Lady.

 
TheFanatic said:
Her husband was dead. Her son was the king of Highgarden. He was in the Sept when it blew along with his heirs. With no one else left alive to rule Highgarden, she ruled. 
Click to expand...
Technically he was Lord of Highgarden, and Warden of the South.  He wasn't even one of the five Kings in that whole mess.

 
Hot Diggity Dog said:
Yes and he still killed tywin on his way out. I don't think Jamie would of helped him if he knew that was part of the deal. As long as Cersei has Jamie by the nuts he is not crossing her.
Click to expand...
I was thinking maybe Jaime uses this information to try to get Tyrion back in Cersai's good graces, but then the whole patricide thing doesn't really lend itself to that.

 
kentric said:
I was thinking maybe Jaime uses this information to try to get Tyrion back in Cersai's good graces, but then the whole patricide thing doesn't really lend itself to that.
Click to expand...
There's no getting Tyrion back in Cersei's good graces no matter what info may come to light. I think Jamie knows that. 

 
TheFanatic said:
Not when you are in open revolt against the crown. 
Click to expand...
All we know is that it was never shown or mentioned that her son was king or that she was made queen after his death.  She was never referred to as queen in the series outside of her nickname (which had nothing to do with her royal stature)

 
packersfan said:
There's no getting Tyrion back in Cersei's good graces no matter what info may come to light. I think Jamie knows that. 
Click to expand...
Right. As soon as he says, "Well, the good news is, Cersei, our little brother did not kill our son."

She's going to say, "Except he did kill our father willingly and unwillingly killed our mother."

 
NewlyRetired said:
All we know is that it was never shown or mentioned that her son was king or that she was made queen after his death.  She was never referred to as queen in the series outside of her nickname (which had nothing to do with her royal stature)
Click to expand...
And the title of the show may or may not mean an official queen or one referred to as the Queen of Thorns. It's just a vague show title, not an official document citing the titles of royal lines in the mythical world of Westeros. 

 
TheFanatic said:
Right. As soon as he says, "Well, the good news is, Cersei, our little brother did not kill our son."

She's going to say, "Except he did kill our father willingly and unwillingly killed our mother."
Click to expand...
Only she'll leave out unwillingly. She's been pretty direct how she feels about Tyrion killing their mother. 

 
packersfan said:
Only she'll leave out unwillingly. She's been pretty direct how she feels about Tyrion killing their mother. 
Click to expand...
True, but Jamie will correct her and maybe even mention, "Well father was bedding the woman he loved right after he tried to have him killed. I can't say it wasn't justified."

 
TheFanatic said:
And the title of the show may or may not mean an official queen or one referred to as the Queen of Thorns. It's just a vague show title, not an official document citing the titles of royal lines in the mythical world of Westeros. 
Click to expand...
agreed.  Unless the show runners or writers specifically tell us what the title meant it is all speculation.

My point was not about the title itself it was more about your insistence that she was a Queen when there was no evidence of it in the show.

 
TheFanatic said:
True, but Jamie will correct her and maybe even mention, "Well father was bedding the woman he loved right after he tried to have him killed. I can't say it wasn't justified."
Click to expand...
Won't matter. Cersei's hatred for Tryion isn't going to be shut off now. That's why the confrontation seems inevitable between the two of them with Jamie caught in the middle. The one person who loves them both and may be forced to choose.

Episode title: Jamie's Choice. 

 
NewlyRetired said:
agreed.  Unless the show runners or writers specifically tell us what the title meant it is all speculation.

My point was not about the title itself it was more about your insistence that she was a Queen when there was no evidence of it in the show.
Click to expand...
Except for he nickname which was mentioned on the show more than once and plenty of times in the books

 
Bet Sam finds something in those scrolls and leaves before Sir Jorah has even left the area. It's too perfect, to have them travel together to Dragonstone. I bet Sam has kept in contact with Jon via raven and knows he's supposed to be there by the time he's ready to leave--esepcially since their last communication we saw was Sam TELLING Jon to go there for the dragonglass. Sam may even have to steal the original copy of whatever he finds and book it out of there, who knows. 

Dany: "Sir Jorah!"

Jon: "Sam!"

*they look at each other and back at the pair* 

I know that's terribly simplified, but the way they're condensing storylines, its too perfect not to happen. And it gives Sam (and whatever info he's found )some street cred with Dany because Jorah will now vouch for him, since Sam saved his life and showed honor. 

And if what Sam discovered is about Jon's parentage, it would get it into play (and with Jon and Dany at the same time) far faster than waiting until Bran is finally in the same room with Jon. 

Also brings into play Jon having Jorah's family sword and what that means--his relationship with Jorah's father, how he must be honorable, etc. It buys Jon cred with that whole alliance. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Buckna said:
I agree, I think it worked in this case. I think they are also expecting the viewers to connect the dots and read between the lines more this season which is why we have some of the confusion in this thread (although some of it is schtick.) In this case, they showed Tarly riding with Jamie, I think we are supposed to infer that when he flipped, he took most of the Tyrell army and bannermen with him and Highgarden was caught totally unaware and unprepared. Also with Euron's fleet, if we take it literally that he has over 1,000 ships, he could have easily split his forces and taken out Yara's fleet of 100 and sent the other half to Casterly Rock.
Click to expand...
Except that his ship was leading the armada that attacked casterly 

 
TheFanatic said:
Sure she was. Her son was killed in the Sept as were his two children. She would be the next in line. And either she would be queen or queen mother to some nephew to be king in training in which she would run the show until she felt he was good enough to do it or she died. 

ETA, her nickname is the Queen of Thorns. So she is a queen of sorts. And the title was her getting some justice for going against the Lannisters and dispensing some herself as well as Cersei getting hers for the death of her daughter and the defacto queen of Dorne being on the receiving end. So 3 queens had some justice to give or receive. 
Click to expand...
I hadn't thought about the Queen of Thorns angle, but that is the better explanation if the episode's title is to refer to Olenna as well.  Tommen was king when the Sept was destroyed and Margaery was his queen.  Then after Tommen dies Cersei becomes queen.  I don't see any room for Olenna to be queen.  

 
ConnSKINS26 said:
Bet Sam finds something in those scrolls and leaves before Sir Jorah has even left the area. It's too perfect, to have them travel together to Dragonstone. I bet Sam has kept in contact with Jon via raven and knows he's supposed to be there by the time he's ready to leave--esepcially since their last communication we saw was Sam TELLING Jon to go there for the dragonglass. Sam may even have to steal the original copy of whatever he finds and book it out of there, who knows. 

Dany: "Sir Jorah!"

Jon: "Sam!"

*they look at each other and back at the pair* 

I know that's terribly simplified, but the way they're condensing storylines, its too perfect not to happen. And it gives Sam (and whatever info he's found )some street cred with Dany because Jorah will now vouch for him, since Sam saved his life and showed honor. 

And if what Sam discovered is about Jon's parentage, it would get it into play (and with Jon and Dany at the same time) far faster than waiting until Bran is finally in the same room with Jon. 
Click to expand...
I kept expecting something like this to happen in the first six season between the Stark/Snow kids, but no matter how close they got to each other or to someone that could save them, they always slipped by. But now maybe with how fast this is happening, maybe that does go down. But it seems to contrived GRRM, but maybe not so much for the show writers!

 
ConnSKINS26 said:
Bet Sam finds something in those scrolls and leaves before Sir Jorah has even left the area. It's too perfect, to have them travel together to Dragonstone. I bet Sam has kept in contact with Jon via raven and knows he's supposed to be there by the time he's ready to leave. Sam may even have to steal the original copy of whatever he finds and book it out of there, who knows. 

Dany: "Sir Jorah!"

Jon: "Sam!"

*they look at each other and back at the pair* 

I know that's terribly simplified, but the way they're condensing storylines, its too perfect not to happen. And it gives Sam (and whatever info he's found )some street cred with Dany because Jorah will now vouch for him, since Sam saved his life and showed honor. 

And if what Sam discovered is about Jon's parentage, it would get it into play (and with Jon and Dany at the same time) far faster than waiting until Bran is finally in the same room with Jon. 
Click to expand...
However, we do have Bran already asking for Jon and knows his parentage.  I think (hope) Sam uncovers something else - additional way to kill ice zombies, a way to fortify the wall, a way to strengthen Jon's claim on the throne more, proof about Jamie and Cersei, etc.. 

Of course we have an all-seeing Bran, so still not sure what else Sam brings to the table besides another piece of Valyrian steel.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
TheFanatic said:
Except for he nickname which was mentioned on the show more than once and plenty of times in the books
Click to expand...
correct.  But as we already established her nickname has no relation to royalty which you claimed she was because her son died in the Sept and she was next in line.  There was nothing to be in line for in terms of being a queen :)

===============

If you want to stick to the nickname as the meaning for the title of the show that is perfectly fine, your guess is as good as any ones.

If instead you want to state that she is a true Queen stating that her son was King (he wasn't) or that she was made Queen off screen after the rebellion started (never shown or even hinted at), I don't think that makes too much sense to me.  

But no big deal either way.  Have a final word if you like :)

 
Pretty sure Loras was a Queen. Olenna was Loras's grandma, so, wala! she's a Queen too.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
NewlyRetired said:
correct.  But as we already established her nickname has no relation to royalty which you claimed she was because her son died in the Sept and she was next in line.  There was nothing to be in line for in terms of being a queen :)

===============

If you want to stick to the nickname as the meaning for the title of the show that is perfectly fine, your guess is as good as any ones.

If instead you want to state that she is a true Queen stating that her son was King (he wasn't) or that she was made Queen off screen after the rebellion started (never shown or even hinted at), I don't think that makes too much sense to me.  

But no big deal either way.  Have a final word if you like :)
Click to expand...
John was declared King of the north which puts him in open rebellion against the crown. 

Olenna ruled one of the 7 kingdoms which she broke away from the Crown in actual rebellion (not just by taking a name like Jon). If that doesn't make her queen of highgarden, albeit short lived, then I don't know what does. One of the 7 King-Doms. King. With no male to lead it, and denying the rule of the queen in kingslanding, that makes her queen to me and also dead if caught by the actual queen. 

That's all I'm saying. I'm not arguing semantics with you anymore. 

 
packersfan said:
There's no getting Tyrion back in Cersei's good graces no matter what info may come to light. I think Jamie knows that. 
Click to expand...
I'm not convinced Jaime returns to Cersei's side.  He has his army and, now, a base to work from (picking up the Tyrell forces as well)..  He seems to have soured on Cersei a bit ...he was embarrassed when she opened the bedroom door.  He knows Tyrion didn't kill his son.  He knows Dany (with Tyrion at her side) is looking to wipe Cersei out.  Maybe he waits for one of them to lose and the other to be weakened.  He then attacks or forms an alliance.  

 
tri-man 47 said:
I'm not convinced Jaime returns to Cersei's side.  He has his army and, now, a base to work from (picking up the Tyrell forces as well)..  He seems to have soured on Cersei a bit ...he was embarrassed when she opened the bedroom door.  He knows Tyrion didn't kill his son.  He knows Dany (with Tyrion at her side) is looking to wipe Cersei out.  Maybe he waits for one of them to lose and the other to be weakened.  He then attacks or forms an alliance.  
Click to expand...
There is no way this happens. Do you remember his speech to Edmure? All he cares about is Cersei. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
tri-man 47 said:
I'm not convinced Jaime returns to Cersei's side.  He has his army and, now, a base to work from (picking up the Tyrell forces as well)..  He seems to have soured on Cersei a bit ...he was embarrassed when she opened the bedroom door.  He knows Tyrion didn't kill his son.  He knows Dany (with Tyrion at her side) is looking to wipe Cersei out.  Maybe he waits for one of them to lose and the other to be weakened.  He then attacks or forms an alliance.  
Click to expand...
Jamie may kill Cersei but it wouldn't be for any of these reasons.  The only reason he would kill her is because she is going scorched earth on the kingdom in the same way that the mad king did.  The scene in this past episode was to reinforce their relationship.  It is going to take something significant for him to leave her side, with the sechs and the bending of the knees and all.

 
The Indestructible said:
I hadn't thought about the Queen of Thorns angle, but that is the better explanation if the episode's title is to refer to Olenna as well.  Tommen was king when the Sept was destroyed and Margaery was his queen.  Then after Tommen dies Cersei becomes queen.  I don't see any room for Olenna to be queen.  
Click to expand...
Olenna was not a queen.  Highgarden never maintained a claim and was always maneuvering to increase status through marriage.  Hence Margery bedding all the key players and essentially locking up Joffrey then Tommen for her family.  

Post Margery death, there is no evidence whatsoever that granny asserted an independent claim to be queen of the south.  That is pure conjecture and doesn't really work with the narrative as it has been laid out.  

Cool nickname though...

 
KarmaPolice said:
However, we do have Bran already asking for Jon and knows his parentage.  I think (hope) Sam uncovers something else - additional way to kill ice zombies, a way to fortify the wall, a way to strengthen Jon's claim on the throne more, proof about Jamie and Cersei, etc.. 

Of course we have an all-seeing Bran, so still not sure what else Sam brings to the table besides another piece of Valyrian steel.
Click to expand...
I think if they went this way, it would be because having Bran is a great storytelling tool to show us, the audience, the stuff we've seen (and whatever we haven't seen yet) via flashbacks. I agree it might make more sense if he's the one to tell Jon about his parentage, but if it's Sam, it doesn't mean Bran was useless. Because we were able to see it all via flashback in a way that was immersive and wasn't a BS reveal by the writers--it fit the lore of the world they and GRRM created, and created a great dramatic moment we wouldn't have gotten if Sam discovered it first. Bran is a much more effective storytelling tool for the writers to show us stuff, but that doesn't mean other characters can't learn things he has shown us on their own. Plus Bran has bigger fish to fry with the Night King and all that--it was a cool reveal but it's not like his biggest purpose as the Three Eyed Raven was to learn Jon's heritage. 

 
TheFanatic said:
Olenna ruled one of the 7 kingdoms which she broke away from the Crown in actual rebellion (not just by taking a name like Jon). If that doesn't make her queen of highgarden, albeit short lived, then I don't know what does. 
Click to expand...
Even following your (dumb imo) logic used to defend this, it still doesn't make sense. When Olenna "rebelled" it was by accepting Dany as her new Queen. She was positioned against Cersei, but not claiming any title or autonomy of her own--she joined the Mother of Dragons, who would rule Highgarden as well as everything else they conquered.

So not only are you wrong and arguing a futile technicality (when you could have just stuck with her nickname and been correct), but the internal logic of your theory doesn't even follow. 

 
ConnSKINS26 said:
Even following your (dumb imo) logic used to defend this, it still doesn't make sense. When Olenna "rebelled" it was by accepting Dany as her new Queen. She was positioned against Cersei, but not claiming any title or autonomy of her own--she joined the Mother of Dragons, who would rule Highgarden as well as everything else they conquered.

So not only are you wrong and arguing a futile technicality (when you could have just stuck with her nickname and been correct), but the internal logic of your theory doesn't even follow. 
Click to expand...
Right.  And to further this odd logic, it would also mean that all of the northern houses who "rebelled" against the crown (by acknowledging Jon Snow as King of the North) are also somehow kings/queens in their own right: eg, King Manderly, King Glover, Queen Mormont ( :wub: )

 
TheFanatic said:
John was declared King of the north which puts him in open rebellion against the crown. 

Olenna ruled one of the 7 kingdoms which she broke away from the Crown in actual rebellion (not just by taking a name like Jon). If that doesn't make her queen of highgarden, albeit short lived, then I don't know what does. One of the 7 King-Doms. King. With no male to lead it, and denying the rule of the queen in kingslanding, that makes her queen to me and also dead if caught by the actual queen. 

That's all I'm saying. I'm not arguing semantics with you anymore. 
Click to expand...
No offense, but you are wrong on the bolded in show-logic. Doesn't matter what your own head-canon is.

 
The Indestructible said:
Right.  And to further this odd logic, it would also mean that all of the northern houses who "rebelled" against the crown (by acknowledging Jon Snow as King of the North) are also somehow kings/queens in their own right: eg, King Manderly, King Glover, Queen Mormont ( :wub: )
Click to expand...
They are lords and bannermen to the king. 

But yeah, I hadn't thought about how she just threw her lot in behind Dany and not fighting for independence or anything like that. 

 
ConnSKINS26 said:
So not only are you wrong and arguing a futile technicality (when you could have just stuck with her nickname and been correct), but the internal logic of your theory doesn't even follow. 
Click to expand...
yeah I am unsure where he was going with this.  He even got upset at me for trying to understand his points.

I am glad so many others are seeing this too and I am not a nut here.  

This show moves so fast it is very easy to miss things and his insistence made me think I missed something that led to her being queen.

 
tri-man 47 said:
I'm not convinced Jaime returns to Cersei's side.  He has his army and, now, a base to work from (picking up the Tyrell forces as well)..  He seems to have soured on Cersei a bit ...he was embarrassed when she opened the bedroom door.  He knows Tyrion didn't kill his son.  He knows Dany (with Tyrion at her side) is looking to wipe Cersei out.  Maybe he waits for one of them to lose and the other to be weakened.  He then attacks or forms an alliance.  
Click to expand...
I'm going to stick to my idea a few posts ago, before the queen stuff, and say that Dany attacks the Lannister army marching back to King's Landing, so in that I agree with you that he isn't going to meet up with Cersei again soon.  I think he either dies in that battle - doubtful - or is taken prisoner and brought back to Dragonstone where Tyrion tries to get Dany to not kill him.  The question is if that is even possible, what happens then.  Not having Jaime would probably drive Cersei insane and cause her to do something stupid.

This could actually shape up to where Jaime is the lynchpin to overall final war because he is connected to so many different people in the story.  He has his semi-love respect thing with Brienne, so that means Sansa might be willing to work with him; Tyrion wouldn't want to kill him but to have him be by his side, so maybe he gets Dany to come along. Bran is only the 3 eyed raven because of him.  He is still one of the best generals in the land so Jon could use him and his knowledge in the coming battle...

Be funny if the end game is Jaime is the only one left after all of this.

 
Yankee23Fan said:
I'm going to stick to my idea a few posts ago, before the queen stuff, and say that Dany attacks the Lannister army marching back to King's Landing, so in that I agree with you that he isn't going to meet up with Cersei again soon.  I think he either dies in that battle - doubtful - or is taken prisoner and brought back to Dragonstone where Tyrion tries to get Dany to not kill him.  The question is if that is even possible, what happens then.  Not having Jaime would probably drive Cersei insane and cause her to do something stupid.

This could actually shape up to where Jaime is the lynchpin to overall final war because he is connected to so many different people in the story.  He has his semi-love respect thing with Brienne, so that means Sansa might be willing to work with him; Tyrion wouldn't want to kill him but to have him be by his side, so maybe he gets Dany to come along. Bran is only the 3 eyed raven because of him.  He is still one of the best generals in the land so Jon could use him and his knowledge in the coming battle...

Be funny if the end game is Jaime is the only one left after all of this.
Click to expand...
He's also got a valyrian steel sword. At some point, you'd figure that thing has to get up north somehow.

 
kentric said:
The thought was more for her to raze the ships bringing her close to the ships and maybe taking an arrow.  Long distance reconnaissance would be a viable use of the dragons. 

In any event I didn't think it likely as the distance would likely be too great and you wouldn't want your leader out of touch for that long a period of time.  It was just a wish list item. haha
Click to expand...
It would just be from one scene to the next. No time at all.

 
The Indestructible said:
Jamie may kill Cersei but it wouldn't be for any of these reasons.  The only reason he would kill her is because she is going scorched earth on the kingdom in the same way that the mad king did.  The scene in this past episode was to reinforce their relationship.  It is going to take something significant for him to leave her side, with the sechs and the bending of the knees and all.
Click to expand...
Not so sure if he'd ever leave her side.  I mean, she killed countless people by destroying half of King's Landing with wildfire and he's still with her.

 
Does anybody else think we'll meet Howland Reed?  I imagine we might need somebody to validate Jon's parentage (aside from Bran).  I know Meera is alive but I don't get the sense that he (Howland) told her.  

 
Gr00vus said:
He's also got a valyrian steel sword. At some point, you'd figure that thing has to get up north somehow.
Click to expand...
That too.  

There are what, 4 of them?  Jamie, Sam, Brienne and Jon each have one.  I don't remember any others.  If they are really that important then Jon and Jamie and Brienne are going to be in the same battle somehow possibly.  I maybe Sam gives his to Jorah.

Eh, this is more fun that work if nothing else.

 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

BobbyLayne
The 25 Greatest Films of the 21st Century So Far
2 3 4
Replies
155
Views
12K
El Floppo
El Floppo

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 20 (members: 0, guests: 20)
Back
Top