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Growing list of former players with CTE…Duper/Dorsett (1 Viewer)

Ministry of Pain

Footballguy
I'm sure there are going to be a lot more former players perhaps some of you know about them already. I saw these two former stars come forward and reveal they have it. Dorsett sometimes gets lost driving to places he has been many times before. Duper blames CTE for his anger outburst in the last couple years. I was gonna give the two of them their own thread but I figure we will be adding to the list as time moves along.

This has nothing to do with being for or against the yellow laundry on Sundays but I'm sure these are not going to be the only guys who come forward. They have been officially diagnosed with CTE, it's not just a couple guys complaining about migraines. I'll be interested to find out if the research into this can help develop new ways to protect the players.

 
This is going to get very ugly. The dams about to break. This is just the initial crack in the concrete

 
I really feel sad (and angry) about what these groups have done to Duper, Dorsett and others. It's reached the point of being unethical, in fact.

 
what is cte?
Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathybrain trauma
The concept of CTE involves more than brain trauma. It is believed to be a neurodegenerative condition brought about by a single or repetitive concussion or sub-concussive blows. This neurodegeneration is thought to involve a number of possible factors, which have not been clearly established to date, but ultimately result in protein aggregation (tau) in the specific areas of the brain (location seems important but is disputed between the two main players studying this).

Much remains speculative at this point.

 
CTE is the reason Seau, Duerson and Waters took their own lives, correct?
It is the post hoc answer given by the two main camps who are driving the CTE bus. The vast majority of neuroscientists, neurologists, neuropsychologists believe it is way premature to make such a claim.

 
CTE is the reason Seau, Duerson and Waters took their own lives, correct?
I don't want to post wrong info in this thread but I believe that is the case RN. PBS Frontline although repetitive for some was a good summary of where we are at right now. I would encourage anyone to start there and learn more about CTE.

 
I'm sure there are going to be a lot more former players perhaps some of you know about them already. I saw these two former stars come forward and reveal they have it. Dorsett sometimes gets lost driving to places he has been many times before. Duper blames CTE for his anger outburst in the last couple years. I was gonna give the two of them their own thread but I figure we will be adding to the list as time moves along.

This has nothing to do with being for or against the yellow laundry on Sundays but I'm sure these are not going to be the only guys who come forward. They have been officially diagnosed with CTE, it's not just a couple guys complaining about migraines. I'll be interested to find out if the research into this can help develop new ways to protect the players.
Freddie Mitchell too

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/freddie-mitchell-talks-about-facing-prison-and-how-cte-affects-his-life-110713

Pat White has made a full recovery though. There is hope.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/04/02/pat-white-drops-concussion-lawsuit-as-he-prepares-to-return-to-nfl/

 
CTE is the reason Seau, Duerson and Waters took their own lives, correct?
I don't want to post wrong info in this thread but I believe that is the case RN. PBS Frontline although repetitive for some was a good summary of where we are at right now. I would encourage anyone to start there and learn more about CTE.
Frontline did not present this very thoroughly, nor did the book. You'd watch that program and come away believing this as gospel, when it is not. If you watch Frontline, also consult the consensus statement written by international leaders in neuroscience this past year at the International Conference on Concussion in Sport.

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/47/5/250.full

Particularly this section:

What is the evidence for chronic concussion-related changes?—behavioural, pathological and clinical outcomes

It was agreed that CTE represents a distinct tauopathy with an unknown incidence in athletic populations. It was further agreed that CTE was not related to concussions alone or simply exposure to contact sports. At present, there are no published epidemiological, cohort or prospective studies relating to modern CTE. Owing to the nature of the case reports and pathological case series that have been published, it is not possible to determine the causality or risk factors with any certainty. As such, the speculation that repeated concussion or subconcussive impacts cause CTE remains unproven. The extent to which age-related changes, psychiatric or mental health illness, alcohol/drug use or co-existing medical or dementing illnesses contribute to this process is largely unaccounted for in the published literature. At present, the interpretation of causation in the modern CTE case studies should proceed cautiously. It was also recognised that it is important to address the fears of parents/athletes from media pressure related to the possibility of CTE.
The fact of the matter is the extant literature is far more sympathetic to the view that concussions are highly unlikely to cause long-term cognitive or psychiatric illness than it is to the proposed CTE story being told by the folks at BU and UC-Davis. More study is needed to explore whether what (e.g., tauopathy) is being observed in the brains of former NFL players is even meaningful, let alone what causes it.

It is important to know that it is not uncommon to find aggregation of tau in the brains of cognitively and psychiatrically unimpaired individuals as well. But, these two groups have been successful advocates in aligning the media to their proposed theories for reasons unknown to most of us working in the field.

 
The Frontline piece was compelling as hell, a must see. Thought the NFL did itself a major disservice by saying nothing. All that said- I have learned more about the other views on CTE in this thread from Cobalt than I did in 90 minutes on Frontline

 
The thought of suicide is unfathomable for most of us, but I remember Duerson's family talking about how he had non-stop migraine headaches and ringing in his ears and he couldn't get any relief from it. Tough to walk in another person's shoes with something like that. I could see how checking out might seem like the preferable option.

 
The thought of suicide is unfathomable for most of us, but I remember Duerson's family talking about how he had non-stop migraine headaches and ringing in his ears and he couldn't get any relief from it. Tough to walk in another person's shoes with something like that. I could see how checking out might seem like the preferable option.
so sad, really. Dorsett was one one of the first players I can remember idolizing.

...which makes it harder for me to make the statement that personal responsibility seemed like the best anecdote then and now. It's a violent game and one (or repeated) collisions will have direct consequences. Cave men knew that there were consequences of voluntary (or involuntary) man-on-man violence. So do recent generations of human beings.

 
The Frontline piece was compelling as hell, a must see. Thought the NFL did itself a major disservice by saying nothing. All that said- I have learned more about the other views on CTE in this thread from Cobalt than I did in 90 minutes on Frontline
I think over time, a balanced story will emerge. At present, however, CTE has become the diagnosis du jour to explain any non-specific memory loss or depression symptoms experienced by NFL players. Not dissimilar to the current state of ADHD where anyone with attention problems is now getting diagnosed with what is, otherwise, a pretty rare syndrome at about only about 3-5% of the population.

But, more folks in the neuroscience disciplines are becoming more vocal and saying let's slow down here. The media eventually will catch on, and you might see folks on OTL who will allay the panic that has been fomented by the two Groups who have a lot to gain(and already have) by promoting their agenda.

That's not to say CTE doesn't exist or that it doesn't exist for the reasons described by these two groups. It's just that there is far more research out there that disputes their claims than supports it, and they have yet to conduct the types of studies necessary to truly establish an association or causal link. Case studies are informative, but real understanding will come from a prospective, randomly-controlled series and epidemiological studies, not to mention the McKee and Omalu groups need to agree on what actually defines CTE on histology. It's frustrating when we want answers now, but...more work has to be done.

 
A study conducted by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) found that NFL players from the '60s, '70s, and '80s were dying far less frequently than men of similar ages and races from the general population. The study — initially commissioned by the NFL in 1990, released in 1994, and then updated in 2007 — quickly became national news, as it arrived just days after the suicide of former Chargers star Junior Seau.

NIOSH's study, published in the American Journal of Cardiology this past March, found there was a statistically significant difference between the number of NFL retirees1 who had died by the end of 2007 and the figure that was expected, given the mortality rates of the general U.S. population. Researchers noted that NFL players were substantially less likely to suffer cancer-related deaths; the study found just 85 players passed away from the cause, against an expectation of 146.8. Meanwhile, players also had healthier hearts, as 126 players died of cardiovascular disease when a total of 186.2 was expected.
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8274392/comparing-mortality-rates-football-baseball

 
A study conducted by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) found that NFL players from the '60s, '70s, and '80s were dying far less frequently than men of similar ages and races from the general population. The study initially commissioned by the NFL in 1990, released in 1994, and then updated in 2007 quickly became national news, as it arrived just days after the suicide of former Chargers star Junior Seau.

NIOSH's study, published in the American Journal of Cardiology this past March, found there was a statistically significant difference between the number of NFL retirees1 who had died by the end of 2007 and the figure that was expected, given the mortality rates of the general U.S. population. Researchers noted that NFL players were substantially less likely to suffer cancer-related deaths; the study found just 85 players passed away from the cause, against an expectation of 146.8. Meanwhile, players also had healthier hearts, as 126 players died of cardiovascular disease when a total of 186.2 was expected.
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8274392/comparing-mortality-rates-football-baseball
I think it's this Barnwell piece where the mortality rates of NFL players were compared to MLB players, and football retirees also had a lower mortality rate.Grant Iverson (who is a pre-eminent neuropsychologist that does a lot of work/study on brain injury) also wrote a brief piece the past month or so describing how the rates of suicide in NFL players falls below what would be expected in the general population.

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2013/10/31/bjsports-2013-092935.abstract

These things don't disprove the existence of CTE by any stretch. But, they do provide converging evidence with a rich body of literature suggesting it is highly unlikely that concussions result in catastrophic consequences later on in life. Now, that doesn't mean you should all go out and slam your head into a wall. But, I wouldn't get worked up about it if you did.

 
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A study conducted by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) found that NFL players from the '60s, '70s, and '80s were dying far less frequently than men of similar ages and races from the general population. The study initially commissioned by the NFL in 1990, released in 1994, and then updated in 2007 quickly became national news, as it arrived just days after the suicide of former Chargers star Junior Seau.

NIOSH's study, published in the American Journal of Cardiology this past March, found there was a statistically significant difference between the number of NFL retirees1 who had died by the end of 2007 and the figure that was expected, given the mortality rates of the general U.S. population. Researchers noted that NFL players were substantially less likely to suffer cancer-related deaths; the study found just 85 players passed away from the cause, against an expectation of 146.8. Meanwhile, players also had healthier hearts, as 126 players died of cardiovascular disease when a total of 186.2 was expected.
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8274392/comparing-mortality-rates-football-baseball
I think it's this Barnwell piece where the mortality rates of NFL players were compared to MLB players, and football retirees also had a lower mortality rate.Grant Iverson (who is a pre-eminent neuropsychologist that does a lot of work/study on brain injury) also wrote a brief piece the past month or so describing how the rates of suicide in NFL players falls below what would be expected in the general population.

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2013/10/31/bjsports-2013-092935.abstract

These things don't disprove the existence of CTE by any stretch. But, they do provide converging evidence with a rich body of literature suggesting it is highly unlikely that concussions result in catastrophic consequences later on in life. Now, that doesn't mean you should all go out and slam your head into a wall. But, I wouldn't get worked up about it if you did.
Are there any numbers on depression, alzheimers etc. in NFL players v other 50+ males?

 
A study conducted by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) found that NFL players from the '60s, '70s, and '80s were dying far less frequently than men of similar ages and races from the general population. The study initially commissioned by the NFL in 1990, released in 1994, and then updated in 2007 quickly became national news, as it arrived just days after the suicide of former Chargers star Junior Seau.

NIOSH's study, published in the American Journal of Cardiology this past March, found there was a statistically significant difference between the number of NFL retirees1 who had died by the end of 2007 and the figure that was expected, given the mortality rates of the general U.S. population. Researchers noted that NFL players were substantially less likely to suffer cancer-related deaths; the study found just 85 players passed away from the cause, against an expectation of 146.8. Meanwhile, players also had healthier hearts, as 126 players died of cardiovascular disease when a total of 186.2 was expected.
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8274392/comparing-mortality-rates-football-baseball
I think it's this Barnwell piece where the mortality rates of NFL players were compared to MLB players, and football retirees also had a lower mortality rate.Grant Iverson (who is a pre-eminent neuropsychologist that does a lot of work/study on brain injury) also wrote a brief piece the past month or so describing how the rates of suicide in NFL players falls below what would be expected in the general population.http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2013/10/31/bjsports-2013-092935.abstract

These things don't disprove the existence of CTE by any stretch. But, they do provide converging evidence with a rich body of literature suggesting it is highly unlikely that concussions result in catastrophic consequences later on in life. Now, that doesn't mean you should all go out and slam your head into a wall. But, I wouldn't get worked up about it if you did.
Are there any numbers on depression, alzheimers etc. in NFL players v other 50+ males?
I'm not aware of any published data on Alzheimer's disease, which based on its natural course and likely strong genetic loading should be unaffected by concussions. However, one very good study by Savica et al., (2012) utilized data from the Rochester Epidemiology Project and looked at over 400 high school football players compared to 140 classmates and found no increased risk in the football group of developing dementia, and the football group had lower rates of Parkinson's disease and amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS; "Lou Gherig's disease")Baron et al. (2012) conducted a study of over 3000 former NFL players and found no increased incidence of neuropsychiatric disorders compared to the general population.

Guskiewicz and colleagues (2005) did a study that suggested that the number of concussions might be associated in weaker cognitive test scores. However, Guskiewicz later wrote a paper discussing the problematic nature of relying on retrospective recall in identifying how many concussions one sustained (I think he found that his participants completed concussion questionnaires 10 years or so apart, and as folks got older they endorsed more concussions). This points to the need to have a prospective design, rather than retrospective, to better capture what is going on.

HTH

 
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Mark Duper was one of my favorite players growing up :(

When the NFL settled with the NFLPA earlier this year, didnt they do so on the condition that no future players can sue the league? I was shocked when the players agreed to make that deal. I could be wrong but I remember thinking it greatly benefited those who were diagnosed at the time of the lawsuit, but didnt give nearly as much for those whose condition still hadnt/hasnt been identified.

 
Mark Duper was one of my favorite players growing up :(

When the NFL settled with the NFLPA earlier this year, didnt they do so on the condition that no future players can sue the league? I was shocked when the players agreed to make that deal. I could be wrong but I remember thinking it greatly benefited those who were diagnosed at the time of the lawsuit, but didnt give nearly as much for those whose condition still hadnt/hasnt been identified.
As a Cowboys fan, Dorsett easily was mine. :(

I feel so bad for him, but I am skeptical that he has CTE for reasons described above.

 
This is crazy, but growing up in Miami in the 70s-80s as a Dolphins and Cowboys fan. Dorsett was my favorite RB and Duper my favorite WR. Still my favorites of all time

 
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cobalt_27 said:
Frontline did not present this very thoroughly, nor did the book. You'd watch that program and come away believing this as gospel, when it is not. If you watch Frontline, also consult the consensus statement written by international leaders in neuroscience this past year at the International Conference on Concussion in Sport.
Frontline presented the evolution of the NFL's strategy for avoiding a fact that no one can reasonably avoid: violence against a human body will often have negative health consequences.

While Frontline may make the NFL look foolish in its approach to avoid this universal truth, the fact that it is a universal truth is precisely why anyone's argument that the NFL is liable is morally problematic.

 
A study conducted by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) found that NFL players from the '60s, '70s, and '80s were dying far less frequently than men of similar ages and races from the general population. The study — initially commissioned by the NFL in 1990, released in 1994, and then updated in 2007 — quickly became national news, as it arrived just days after the suicide of former Chargers star Junior Seau.

NIOSH's study, published in the American Journal of Cardiology this past March, found there was a statistically significant difference between the number of NFL retirees1 who had died by the end of 2007 and the figure that was expected, given the mortality rates of the general U.S. population. Researchers noted that NFL players were substantially less likely to suffer cancer-related deaths; the study found just 85 players passed away from the cause, against an expectation of 146.8. Meanwhile, players also had healthier hearts, as 126 players died of cardiovascular disease when a total of 186.2 was expected.
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8274392/comparing-mortality-rates-football-baseball
That is likely because NFL players are in good physical condition and I believe the majority keep in shape after their playing days are done. the general public is a bunch of over weight, out of shape, unhealthy eaters and smokers.. You don't see many obese people over the age of 50, because they don't exist.

 
cobalt_27 said:
Frontline did not present this very thoroughly, nor did the book. You'd watch that program and come away believing this as gospel, when it is not. If you watch Frontline, also consult the consensus statement written by international leaders in neuroscience this past year at the International Conference on Concussion in Sport.
Frontline presented the evolution of the NFL's strategy for avoiding a fact that no one can reasonably avoid: violence against a human body will often have negative health consequences.

While Frontline may make the NFL look foolish in its approach to avoid this universal truth, the fact that it is a universal truth is precisely why anyone's argument that the NFL is liable is morally problematic.
I have no defense for the NFL, nor would I care to entertain one. This was the most revealing part of the Frontline piece, and in the view of the field as a whole there should have been no reason for their paranoia. But, they chose their strategic path, it was dumb, and they get what they deserve. Should have just been fine to let the existing data stand on their own merits.You speak a truism, however, about violence and health consequences, and I completely agree with you about the medico legal concerns. But, I am not an attorney, and the specific question I entertain as one who works in neuroscience is whether or not said violence results in this specific syndrome, CTE. I leave open the possibility that it does. It's just that the available evidence is murky at best, and furthermore the preponderance of evidence is not favorable to the CTE camp, despite their enthusiasm in saying that it is.

 
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A study conducted by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) found that NFL players from the '60s, '70s, and '80s were dying far less frequently than men of similar ages and races from the general population. The study — initially commissioned by the NFL in 1990, released in 1994, and then updated in 2007 — quickly became national news, as it arrived just days after the suicide of former Chargers star Junior Seau.

NIOSH's study, published in the American Journal of Cardiology this past March, found there was a statistically significant difference between the number of NFL retirees1 who had died by the end of 2007 and the figure that was expected, given the mortality rates of the general U.S. population. Researchers noted that NFL players were substantially less likely to suffer cancer-related deaths; the study found just 85 players passed away from the cause, against an expectation of 146.8. Meanwhile, players also had healthier hearts, as 126 players died of cardiovascular disease when a total of 186.2 was expected.
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/8274392/comparing-mortality-rates-football-baseball
That is likely because NFL players are in good physical condition and I believe the majority keep in shape after their playing days are done. the general public is a bunch of over weight, out of shape, unhealthy eaters and smokers.. You don't see many obese people over the age of 50, because they don't exist.
And they are of higher SES and have greater access to health care. Which is why Barnwell's analyses of NFL players compared to MLB retirees is so interesting/revealing.

 
Mark Duper was one of my favorite players growing up :(

When the NFL settled with the NFLPA earlier this year, didnt they do so on the condition that no future players can sue the league? I was shocked when the players agreed to make that deal. I could be wrong but I remember thinking it greatly benefited those who were diagnosed at the time of the lawsuit, but didnt give nearly as much for those whose condition still hadnt/hasnt been identified.
Same. I'll never forget the game he had against the Jets in '85 in the Orange Bowl, 217 yds, 2 TDs…let's have a look. If you skip to the 1:30 mark you'll see a sensational juggle and 1 handed catch never breaking stride...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3_BbMhREzw

 
Mark Duper was one of my favorite players growing up :(

When the NFL settled with the NFLPA earlier this year, didnt they do so on the condition that no future players can sue the league? I was shocked when the players agreed to make that deal. I could be wrong but I remember thinking it greatly benefited those who were diagnosed at the time of the lawsuit, but didnt give nearly as much for those whose condition still hadnt/hasnt been identified.
Same. I'll never forget the game he had against the Jets in '85 in the Orange Bowl, 217 yds, 2 TDslet's have a look. If you skip to the 1:30 mark you'll see a sensational juggle and 1 handed catch never breaking stride...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3_BbMhREzw
That's the Duper signature catch, was a Monday night. I believe Lorenzo Hampton also went off that night. Great game.
 
cobalt_27 said:
Raider Nation said:
CTE is the reason Seau, Duerson and Waters took their own lives, correct?
It is the post hoc answer given by the two main camps who are driving the CTE bus. The vast majority of neuroscientists, neurologists, neuropsychologists believe it is way premature to make such a claim.
Folks used to use the same logic train to discredit the view that cigarettes were harmful. You know, way back in the 50s for example.
 
cobalt_27 said:
Frontline did not present this very thoroughly, nor did the book. You'd watch that program and come away believing this as gospel, when it is not. If you watch Frontline, also consult the consensus statement written by international leaders in neuroscience this past year at the International Conference on Concussion in Sport.
Frontline presented the evolution of the NFL's strategy for avoiding a fact that no one can reasonably avoid: violence against a human body will often have negative health consequences.

While Frontline may make the NFL look foolish in its approach to avoid this universal truth, the fact that it is a universal truth is precisely why anyone's argument that the NFL is liable is morally problematic.
I have no defense for the NFL, nor would I care to entertain one. This was the most revealing part of the Frontline piece, and in the view of the field as a whole there should have been no reason for their paranoia. But, they chose their strategic path, it was dumb, and they get what they deserve. Should have just been fine to let the existing data stand on their own merits.You speak a truism, however, about violence and health consequences, and I completely agree with you about the medico legal concerns. But, I am not an attorney, and the specific question I entertain as one who works in neuroscience is whether or not said violence results in this specific syndrome, CTE. I leave open the possibility that it does. It's just that the available evidence is murky at best, and furthermore the preponderance of evidence is not favorable to the CTE camp, despite their enthusiasm in saying that it is.
Glad we agree on that.

I suppose my concern is that we are focusing on the medical concern du jour, CTE; when the violence inherent in the sport will likely result in a variety of serious medical issues over time.

Some may say the focus on CTE is justified due to the *potential* of its (1) prevalence, (2) causality, and (3) tangible made-for-TV symptomology. But I can guarantee that prevalence will take a back seat when the fateful day comes that someone dies on the field of play in an NFL game. The focus will shift away from CTE at that point.

In my view, the leaders of the sport...not only its professional league, need to continue with their research and improvements related and not related to CTE; but they also need to communicate clearly to players/fans/media that the sport is violent and it will have consequences for those that play it; including the possibility of immediate death.

This tip-toeing around the universal truth that violence against a human body will often have negative health consequences is nonsensical.

 
Interesting data I just reviewed:

Baron et al (2012) reported that there were 9 documented suicides by former NFL players between 1960-2007. In the past two years, there have been 6. During that same 1960-2007 period there were 31 suicides by former MLB players.

Wish we had autopsy studies and concussion histories on those NFL players, the former MLB players, and control groups during those years. Given the current narrative that (1) concussions are necessary and sufficient to cause CTE, (2) CTE is a neurodegenerative condition that causes substantial cognitive and psychiatric disturbance, and (3) one concerning outcome of all this is completed suicides, these data seem rather curious to me.

 
Is there any control group for the UCLA cte stuff? Or is it just such a distinctive pattern that its obvious its abnormal and its tau from cte?

 
Is there any control group for the UCLA cte stuff? Or is it just such a distinctive pattern that its obvious its abnormal and its tau from cte?
None that I am aware of, regarding any control group(s).Gary Small's group at UCLA performed the scans on these players using a combination of positron emission tomography (PET) and a bio marker ([18F]FDDNP) that is supposed to attach to only tau. FDDNP has been used in the past to latch onto both tau and amyloid plaques which is in current use to diagnose Alzheimer's disease in living persons. The only distinctive pattern I can gather from McKee's writings is that when the aggregation of tau is found in the depths of the brain sulci, that is the hallmark feature of CTE. Beyond that, there really is no consensus on the histopathology or location to define CTE. Furthermore, brains of healthy, cognitively unimpaired individuals show neurofibrillary inclusions and proteinopathy, so it is unclear what significance these findings are with respect the autopsy studies of former NFL players showing tau aggregation (or for that matter these PET scans, which show signs of tau buildup, but that's not unusual and can be the result of myriad factors).

It is all interesting work, but still very much incomplete and I fear misleading.

 
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Yeah there's no controls here. Sample size of 8

http://regressing.deadspin.com/is-the-new-cte-test-for-football-players-a-good-one-1464445603/@mattmccarthy

Because the TauMark Scan that was used on Tony Dorsett is so new, and because the number of ex-players tested is so small, we don't yet know what the sensitivity or specificity of this test is. The first eight NFL players to be tested with this technology all tested positive for CTE at UCLA. If the researchers go on to test hundreds of patients who never experienced head trauma and have no symptoms, those patients should not light up on their scanner. If they do show signs of CTE, it's a lousy test; if they don't it's an excellent test.

The fascinating group to examine will be ex-NFL players who did suffer concussions but are without symptoms. Will these patients test positive for CTE on the TauMark Scan? And if they do, is it because they're catching CTE before the symptoms have developed or because the scanner has mistakenly diagnosed an ex-player with CTE?

 
I'll chime in only because I work with the folks who are doing this research. This research is in it's infancy as so much has been discovered just in the last 5 years. The focus here is shifting not from concussions per se but subsconcussive hits. That is, the amount of times you smack your head at forces equivalent to driving a car into a brick wall at 35 miles per hour. From what I understand, the regions of the brain where tau deposits develop are unique for CTE. As cobalt pointed out, there is much more data to be gathered before any meaningful interpretations can be made and the media has, as usual, sensationalized what little findings exist.

 
Franknbeans said:
I'll chime in only because I work with the folks who are doing this research. This research is in it's infancy as so much has been discovered just in the last 5 years. The focus here is shifting not from concussions per se but subsconcussive hits. That is, the amount of times you smack your head at forces equivalent to driving a car into a brick wall at 35 miles per hour. From what I understand, the regions of the brain where tau deposits develop are unique for CTE. As cobalt pointed out, there is much more data to be gathered before any meaningful interpretations can be made and the media has, as usual, sensationalized what little findings exist.
Awesome. Do you work for the BU group, Omalu's group, or other? I perfectly understand if you don't want to say to maintain anonimnity. One thing that would help me. Gavitt and others have explored possible mechanisms of abnormal tau aggregation in humans speculating that a cascade of events occur stemmung from axonal shearing when acceleration deceleration forces are exacted on the brain. Is it your understanding that the same cascade of metabolic events (e.g, calcium influx, mitochondrial dysfunction, etc.) can be produced by sub-concussive blows? Do you have a citation you can PM?

Thanks. Good to have someone in this thread working in this area.

 
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This is getting ridiculous
:goodposting: Lets now discuss the vast majority of players WHO DO NOT SUFFER from this.
Followed by a discussion of cigarette smokers who never get lung cancer.
How about the overweight OL and DL. Those guys are all doomed to heart disease among other illnesses. We need to get them all on weight watchers.

Well, except the ones that protect my QBs, open up holes for my RBs and have QBs throwing to my WRs.

 
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Interesting data I just reviewed:

Baron et al (2012) reported that there were 9 documented suicides by former NFL players between 1960-2007. In the past two years, there have been 6. During that same 1960-2007 period there were 31 suicides by former MLB players.

Wish we had autopsy studies and concussion histories on those NFL players, the former MLB players, and control groups during those years. Given the current narrative that (1) concussions are necessary and sufficient to cause CTE, (2) CTE is a neurodegenerative condition that causes substantial cognitive and psychiatric disturbance, and (3) one concerning outcome of all this is completed suicides, these data seem rather curious to me.
How many players in each league during the time frame? What % of the NFL players committed suicide vs MLB players? Were minor league players also considered "MLB"? Just curious.

 
Interesting data I just reviewed:Baron et al (2012) reported that there were 9 documented suicides by former NFL players between 1960-2007. In the past two years, there have been 6. During that same 1960-2007 period there were 31 suicides by former MLB players.

Wish we had autopsy studies and concussion histories on those NFL players, the former MLB players, and control groups during those years. Given the current narrative that (1) concussions are necessary and sufficient to cause CTE, (2) CTE is a neurodegenerative condition that causes substantial cognitive and psychiatric disturbance, and (3) one concerning outcome of all this is completed suicides, these data seem rather curious to me.
How many players in each league during the time frame? What % of the NFL players committed suicide vs MLB players? Were minor league players also considered "MLB"? Just curious.
I don't really have any idea. I'm sure anybody who has played in MLB was considered, but not minor leaguers. NFL roster limits were at 40 players until 1973 and fluctuated in the 40s through the 80s and 90s.

I am assuming there is not a significant difference between MLB and NFL players in those years to account for the 3-fold higher rate of suicides among retired baseball players.

 
the ways in which science can become intermingled with media and become politicized reminds me of a book called the apocalyptics by edith efron... there was a time in the '60s when it was popular to attribute carcinogens to man made chemicals (see ralph nader)... this caused a lot off grants to become steered in that direction, it was a hot topic... yet the biggest carcinogen (according to efron) was carbon... a natural substance and basic element...

if there is basic research to suggest there are other causes/associations, not pursuing them as vigorously, just because that path is more complex or difficult to prove, reminds me of something else, a tale of nasrudin (from the persian/central asian sufi tradition)... a stranger notices a drunk looking for his car keys under a street lamp at night... he offers to help, and asks if he lost his keys there... the drunk replies, no, but the light is better here!

 
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