Half of America Shut off from Economic Growth (1 Viewer)

[Otis]

Nobody is starving in the United States.

I was wondering about this too. I am probably not very in touch with some of these impoverished southern states, but the notion that people are literally starving in the US seems strange to me. I see homeless people on the street begging for change, so surely there are some people like that. But on the scale of millions?  Just can't be. And of course the feedAmerica website has an agenda, but isn't the point that any supposed starvation is actually getting resolved by all these great charitable organizations?  Which when you think about it work to mitigate income inequality and get these people food so they don't starve?

Again maybe I'm just out of touch, but it would seem surprising to me if people were literally staving in America. 

 

[Johnnymac]

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

I think a lot of the debate upthread about who is to blame for the plight of the poor is completely unrelated to factual disputes.

For whatever reason, I'm pretty sympathetic to the poor, even those that are lazy or made poor decisions or even those that abuse government services.  I can see myself in those people.  I'm lazy, I make bad decisions.  If I had been born into different circumstances, I can imagine living that way.

For some folks in this thread, you really seem to feel hostility on a gut level against people that you feel are mooching off the system.  I just don't really have that instinct in me.  I really can't explain why, but stories about people using food stamps to buy $41 birthday cakes don't upset me.

By contrast, I tend to have really negative feelings towards rich people that screw over others just to make themselves even richer.  Even if they're doing it legally.  It's just a gut level thing.  The article in today's New York Times about the private equity guys that made a ton of money by rescuing Hostess cupcakes from bankruptcy bothers me.   I can't see myself in those people.  But I know a lot of people that see absolutely nothing wrong with their conduct.  Business is business and it's a game just to make the most money you can even if others are hurt.  

I don't have a good explanation for why we have different gut level responses to this stuff.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I think a lot of the debate upthread about who is to blame for the plight of the poor is completely unrelated to factual disputes.

For whatever reason, I'm pretty sympathetic to the poor, even those that are lazy or made poor decisions or even those that abuse government services.  I can see myself in those people.  I'm lazy, I make bad decisions.  If I had been born into different circumstances, I can imagine living that way.

For some folks in this thread, you really seem to feel hostility on a gut level against people that you feel are mooching off the system.  I just don't really have that instinct in me.  I really can't explain why, but stories about people using food stamps to buy $41 birthday cakes don't upset me.

By contrast, I tend to have really negative feelings towards rich people that screw over others just to make themselves even richer.  Even if they're doing it legally.  It's just a gut level thing.  The article in today's New York Times about the private equity guys that made a ton of money by rescuing Hostess cupcakes from bankruptcy bothers me.   I can't see myself in those people.  But I know a lot of people that see absolutely nothing wrong with their conduct.  Business is business and it's a game just to make the most money you can even if others are hurt.  

I don't have a good explanation for why we have different gut level responses to this stuff.

Those guys are heroes to the rich and poor. Twinkies and ding dongs baby.

 

[Juxtatarot]

I don't think income inequality is a problem in and of itself.

There, I said it.

A problem with income inequality is that it is bad for our economy as a whole for the same reason trickle down economics is sub-optimal:  The richer people are the more money they save.  Poorer people spend a much higher percentage of their incomes which better stimulates the economy.  Sure, rich people invest (and I'm referring to the macroeconomic definition of investment not the personal finance definition) but not at high enough levels to make up the gap.  Income inequality can shrink the pie for everyone.  

Of course, not enough inequality can also be a problem if there is a lack of incentive for working hard and taking risks.  But I think it's quite clear the United States isn't in this situation if you look at the income inequality statistics over the recent decades.

 

[Politician Spock]

I was wondering about this too. I am probably not very in touch with some of these impoverished southern states, but the notion that people are literally starving in the US seems strange to me. I see homeless people on the street begging for change, so surely there are some people like that. But on the scale of millions?  Just can't be. And of course the feedAmerica website has an agenda, but isn't the point that any supposed starvation is actually getting resolved by all these great charitable organizations?  Which when you think about it work to mitigate income inequality and get these people food so they don't starve?

Again maybe I'm just out of touch, but it would seem surprising to me if people were literally staving in America. 

If everyone made $5 a day, there would be no need to charitable organizations that address the issue. 

Again I'm not saying a society where everyone made the same amount per day is optimal. It's not. I'm using it to point out what exists in our capitalistic society that would not exist in that one. Charitable organizations exist in our society because our capitalistic economic system naturally produces poor and starving people. You can look at charitable organizations and say "hey problem solved", but now were talking about moral implications of solving it one way or another, as opposed to ignoring the natural problems of poor and starving people that come with capitalism. 

 

[Politician Spock]

I think a lot of the debate upthread about who is to blame for the plight of the poor is completely unrelated to factual disputes.

For whatever reason, I'm pretty sympathetic to the poor, even those that are lazy or made poor decisions or even those that abuse government services.  I can see myself in those people.  I'm lazy, I make bad decisions.  If I had been born into different circumstances, I can imagine living that way.

For some folks in this thread, you really seem to feel hostility on a gut level against people that you feel are mooching off the system.  I just don't really have that instinct in me.  I really can't explain why, but stories about people using food stamps to buy $41 birthday cakes don't upset me.

By contrast, I tend to have really negative feelings towards rich people that screw over others just to make themselves even richer.  Even if they're doing it legally.  It's just a gut level thing.  The article in today's New York Times about the private equity guys that made a ton of money by rescuing Hostess cupcakes from bankruptcy bothers me.   I can't see myself in those people.  But I know a lot of people that see absolutely nothing wrong with their conduct.  Business is business and it's a game just to make the most money you can even if others are hurt.  

I don't have a good explanation for why we have different gut level responses to this stuff.

I've found those that feel hostile towards those that "mooch off the system" believe people chose that lifestyle, much like a gay person choose to be gay. 

In my opinion, many of the people who need the system's social services need them because their minds are not wired to ever succeed in a capitalistic system. It's no different than if the "game" of our economy was baseball, or poker, or gymanastics. No matter how hard they try, they are just going to suck at it and fail, because they don't have the natural born talents needed to play the game well. Capitalism is a game. You play it right, you succeed. You play it wrong, you fail. And there are a lot of people who are just born to fail at capitalism. The "hostility" towards them is because some people do choose to "mooch off the system" that exists for those people's needs. But that's just a problem of the system not differentiating well between the two. It's certainly not a reason at all to be hostile towards those who need legitimate help because they will never succeed in capitalism no matter how hard they try. 

 

[AAABatteries]

I have no idea what you'd be harping on, but I do know that you're doing an awful lot of projecting here. I've generally agreed with your view that we have many who aren't doing well and we should try and help them out, so you can drop all of the ridiculous straw men. I simply asked why income inequality is the reason for their struggles, and you still can't give any specific answer beyond it's "a factor".

Yes, and there's other factors - education, drive/lazy, opportunity, poor decisions.  If all you are wanting to argue is their plight is because they don't have enough money then sure, we agree on that but once you get to a certain level of inequality it becomes almost a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Wages have stayed low because they can and the cost of living has risen.  But this is focusing on just the bottom, I think the inequality is hitting people up and down the income spectrum.  That 538 article does a decent job of introducing some of the issues. Did you read it?  Do you disagree with it?

 

[AAABatteries]

While it is somewhat silly, I will use myself as an example.  I work for a large company making about a top-10 income nationally.  My personal increases have been above avg company wide but still under cost of living increase almost every year for the last several years.  I'm able to absorb this easily but I don't see how our lowest income workers could year over year.  Sure, tell them to just be happy they have a job and you don't have to ever go on vacation or have decent clothes.  Never eat out.  Those are the luxuries of the rich and it just sucks for you right now.  But you know what, if you work REALLY hard and apply yourself then maybe a few out of a hundred of you will get to live like the others.

 

[msommer]

I think a lot of the debate upthread about who is to blame for the plight of the poor is completely unrelated to factual disputes.

For whatever reason, I'm pretty sympathetic to the poor, even those that are lazy or made poor decisions or even those that abuse government services.  I can see myself in those people.  I'm lazy, I make bad decisions.  If I had been born into different circumstances, I can imagine living that way.

For some folks in this thread, you really seem to feel hostility on a gut level against people that you feel are mooching off the system.  I just don't really have that instinct in me.  I really can't explain why, but stories about people using food stamps to buy $41 birthday cakes don't upset me.

By contrast, I tend to have really negative feelings towards rich people that screw over others just to make themselves even richer.  Even if they're doing it legally.  It's just a gut level thing.  The article in today's New York Times about the private equity guys that made a ton of money by rescuing Hostess cupcakes from bankruptcy bothers me.   I can't see myself in those people.  But I know a lot of people that see absolutely nothing wrong with their conduct.  Business is business and it's a game just to make the most money you can even if others are hurt.  

I don't have a good explanation for why we have different gut level responses to this stuff.

Think of the jobs they saved. Heroes, I tell you, heroes

 

[humpback]

Yes, and there's other factors - education, drive/lazy, opportunity, poor decisions.  If all you are wanting to argue is their plight is because they don't have enough money then sure, we agree on that but once you get to a certain level of inequality it becomes almost a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Wages have stayed low because they can and the cost of living has risen.  But this is focusing on just the bottom, I think the inequality is hitting people up and down the income spectrum.  That 538 article does a decent job of introducing some of the issues. Did you read it?  Do you disagree with it?

There are several conversations going on in here at the same time- I'm not arguing that we shouldn't do anything for the poor, they're lazy and should pull themselves up by their bootstraps, or anything of the sort. What I'm talking about is income inequality, and more specifically whether that is the cause of the problems for the poor. Yes, I read the article, and I agree with a lot of it, but again, I'm focused on the driver- the increase in inequality is caused by a drastic rise in automation, globalization, etc., not the other way around.

I think income inequality in and of itself is mostly a red herring- it's a consideration, but IMO we'd be far better served focusing on absolute livelihoods instead of relative ones, even though that isn't as politically convenient.

 

[rockaction]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LMD2vUErcYU

I don't know who I am in the scene, but I'll take it as a compliment? 

No, I had the luxury of working nonprofit for the first five years of my post-collegiate existence after a thoroghougly undistinguished (some might say poor) undergrad performance, which was molded mostly upon Tetris and Foosball.

Anyway, at the nonprofit, we had a big library and were encouraged, so I'm a little like the #######, a little like Damon. I got my education for more than a buck-fifty in late charges, but I also did it on the cheap (which may be why there are such gaps) and without much in the way of a mentor (which might account for literally taking the authors at their words).  

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

I don't know who I am in the scene, but I'll take it as a compliment? 

No, I had the luxury of working nonprofit for the first five years of my post-collegiate existence after a thoroghougly undistinguished (some might say poor) undergrad performance, which was molded mostly upon Tetris and Foosball.

Anyway, at the nonprofit, we had a big library and were encouraged, so I'm a little like the #######, a little like Damon. I got my education for more than a buck-fifty in late charges, but I also did it on the cheap (which may be why there are such gaps) and without much in the way of a mentor (which might account for literally taking the authors at their words).  

You are Ben Affleck's character 

 

[rockaction]

You are Ben Affleck's character 

You're awesome.  

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

By contrast, I tend to have really negative feelings towards rich people that screw over others just to make themselves even richer.  Even if they're doing it legally.  It's just a gut level thing.  The article in today's New York Times about the private equity guys that made a ton of money by rescuing Hostess cupcakes from bankruptcy bothers me.   I can't see myself in those people.  But I know a lot of people that see absolutely nothing wrong with their conduct.  Business is business and it's a game just to make the most money you can even if others are hurt.  

You don't think it is awesome that the people who make Ding Dongs and Twinkies got saved from bankruptcy and that some guys from Connecticut made a mint on the deal?

What kind of monster are you?

 

[parasaurolophus]

While it is somewhat silly, I will use myself as an example.  I work for a large company making about a top-10 income nationally.  My personal increases have been above avg company wide but still under cost of living increase almost every year for the last several years.  I'm able to absorb this easily but I don't see how our lowest income workers could year over year.  Sure, tell them to just be happy they have a job and you don't have to ever go on vacation or have decent clothes.  Never eat out.  Those are the luxuries of the rich and it just sucks for you right now.  But you know what, if you work REALLY hard and apply yourself then maybe a few out of a hundred of you will get to live like the others.

Cost of living increases are a fundamental flaw of our pay system. People feel entitled to them, regardless of personal performance and regardless of how the company performed.

Take the lifelong warehouse worker. How often are they truly more valuable in year 30 than the guy in year 2? I bet their pay is remarkably different which slants that scale even further. 

I know it is common for people to think that somehow COL raises fall outside the p and l and they are some magical entity, but it just doesnt work that way. 

Companies dont automatically get a cost of living increase in profit. 

 

[Politician Spock]

Cost of living increases are a fundamental flaw of our pay system. People feel entitled to them, regardless of personal performance and regardless of how the company performed.

Take the lifelong warehouse worker. How often are they truly more valuable in year 30 than the guy in year 2? I bet their pay is remarkably different which slants that scale even further. 

I know it is common for people to think that somehow COL raises fall outside the p and l and they are some magical entity, but it just doesnt work that way. 

Companies dont automatically get a cost of living increase in profit. 

Increase profit is typically accomplished by increasing prices of goods and services, which increases the cost of living. Thus, the reason workers need cost of living increases is because a for profit economy naturally raises the cost of living. 

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

There are several conversations going on in here at the same time- I'm not arguing that we shouldn't do anything for the poor, they're lazy and should pull themselves up by their bootstraps, or anything of the sort. What I'm talking about is income inequality, and more specifically whether that is the cause of the problems for the poor. Yes, I read the article, and I agree with a lot of it, but again, I'm focused on the driver- the increase in inequality is caused by a drastic rise in automation, globalization, etc., not the other way around.

I think income inequality in and of itself is mostly a red herring- it's a consideration, but IMO we'd be far better served focusing on absolute livelihoods instead of relative ones, even though that isn't as politically convenient.

I pretty much agree with this full stop. Technology is the root cause of increasing income inequality and I don't see much value in demonizing people who happen to be disproportionately benefiting from it. We expect people to act in their own self-interest, it's a feature not a bug of capitalism.  Sure there are some awful rich people who steal, cheat, exploit the law, and don't show any interest in charity. Like the one we just elected President. But by and large I don't think that's generally true. Most of the super-wealthy work hard, played by the rules, and have a sense of civic responsibility.

What we're seeing now has historical echoes to the early 20th century. Technology driven inequality creating global social disruption and populist/nationalist movements. The U.S. was able to avoid the Socialist/Communist/Fascist movements in large part because capital and labor found a balance. We rolled out big social programs that distributed income from the upper to lower classes and enabled collective bargaining to strengthen worker rights. But we also needed to go through two World Wars, Korea, Vietnam, and the broader Cold War as a result of that disruption. 

Hopefully we can learn something from that and other earlier transitions but this one is also coming at us much faster.

 

[Politician Spock]

You don't think it is awesome that the people who make Ding Dongs and Twinkies got saved from bankruptcy and that some guys from Connecticut made a mint on the deal?

What kind of monster are you?

Just shows that the hard work of all the people who make the products is NOT where wealth is made. Wealth is made in the buying and selling of others. As Gordon Gekko said "I create nothing. I own.". The belief that the American Dream is a result of hard work is . The only way to achieve the american dream is to buy assets low and sell them high. Hard work is for chumps. 

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

Just shows that the hard work of all the people who make the products is NOT where wealth is made. Wealth is made in the buying and selling of others. As Gordon Gekko said "I create nothing. I own.". The belief that the American Dream is a result of hard work is . The only way to achieve the american dream is to buy assets low and sell them high. Hard work is for chumps. 

What a complete load of bull####.

 

[Otis]

You can look at charitable organizations and say "hey problem solved", but now were talking about moral implications of solving it one way or another, as opposed to ignoring the natural problems of poor and starving people that come with capitalism. 

Not understanding this.  What's the difference?  Why can't you solve it through charitable organizations, where those more fortunate voluntarily give some to help those in need, versus making the tax system or economy force those people to give some to those in need?  If it works, not sure I see a big difference.

 

[Otis]

Just shows that the hard work of all the people who make the products is NOT where wealth is made. Wealth is made in the buying and selling of others. As Gordon Gekko said "I create nothing. I own.". The belief that the American Dream is a result of hard work is . The only way to achieve the american dream is to buy assets low and sell them high. Hard work is for chumps. 

Can't say I agree with this.  I feel I've done pretty well through some combination of factors, one of which was a willingness to sacrifice and work really hard.  I was fortunate enough to come from a middle class family that valued education and made sure I valued it too, and which helped me get opportunities for education.  But I had many friends who had the same opportunities as I did, but who were unwilling to work as hard and make the same sacrifices; they placed more value on having fun and enjoying themselves and on doing interesting things.  Financially I ended up far more well off than they did; not necessarily a "better" choice, who knows, maybe they're far happier they lived the lives they've lived, I can't say.  But to just flippantly say "it's not about hard work, it's about buying and selling stuff and inheriting wealth," that wasn't my experience, and I can't say I agree.  In my experience hard work, a willingness to sacrifice, and some good decisions along the way--those all contribute a whole lot to income.  

With that said, these aren't the only factors.  There are people who work really hard and barely scrape by; there are people who haven't lifted a finger in their lives and are loaded.  But hard work surely matters to some degree.  

 

[Politician Spock]

Not understanding this.  What's the difference?  Why can't you solve it through charitable organizations, where those more fortunate voluntarily give some to help those in need, versus making the tax system or economy force those people to give some to those in need?  If it works, not sure I see a big difference.

I'm not saying you can't address the issue with that approach. Obviously that's what the current system does. Whether or not it solves the problem, and whether or not there is a better solution, should be the debate. But instead of debating that, too many people just assume the problems of capitalism don't exist.  

 

[Politician Spock]

Can't say I agree with this.  I feel I've done pretty well through some combination of factors, one of which was a willingness to sacrifice and work really hard.  I was fortunate enough to come from a middle class family that valued education and made sure I valued it too, and which helped me get opportunities for education.  But I had many friends who had the same opportunities as I did, but who were unwilling to work as hard and make the same sacrifices; they placed more value on having fun and enjoying themselves and on doing interesting things.  Financially I ended up far more well off than they did; not necessarily a "better" choice, who knows, maybe they're far happier they lived the lives they've lived, I can't say.  But to just flippantly say "it's not about hard work, it's about buying and selling stuff and inheriting wealth," that wasn't my experience, and I can't say I agree.  In my experience hard work, a willingness to sacrifice, and some good decisions along the way--those all contribute a whole lot to income.  

With that said, these aren't the only factors.  There are people who work really hard and barely scrape by; there are people who haven't lifted a finger in their lives and are loaded.  But hard work surely matters to some degree.  

People also win the lottery too Otis. When it comes to succeeding through hard work alone, some people make it. Most people don't.

 

[Otis]

People also win the lottery too Otis. When it comes to succeeding through hard work alone, some people make it. Most people don't.

The lottery is a long shot.  I don't believe the odds are so stacked.  I don't believe all of the people who thrive financially are all so special or so lucky.  I think the formula is pretty simple, and exactly as it was taught to me growing up.  Work hard and sacrifice more?  Make more later.  Enjoy yourselves now instead?  Probably don't.  

It all comes down to choices and what people want an how they want to set priorities.  It may be that the game has become harder, and more competitive, and that you need to work even harder now to secure a future.  Maybe that's the debate.  But I don't see the whole "hard work is a bunch of hogwash."  

 

[kutta]

People also win the lottery too Otis. When it comes to succeeding through hard work alone, some people make it. Most people don't.

I also agree with Otis. Every successful person I know, myself included, worked their asses off to get there. None of it was "given" to them. And that includes the billionaire owners of the company that recently bought my company.

I will grant that some folks have a leg up - the middle class white kid has a much greater chance of making it than the inner city black kid. But that does not diminish the hard work the middle class white kid has to put in in order to be successful.

 

[Politician Spock]

I also agree with Otis. Every successful person I know, myself included, worked their asses off to get there. None of it was "given" to them. And that includes the billionaire owners of the company that recently bought my company.

I will grant that some folks have a leg up - the middle class white kid has a much greater chance of making it than the inner city black kid. But that does not diminish the hard work the middle class white kid has to put in in order to be successful.

I think you read something different than what I intended in what I wrote. By comparing success through hard work to winning the lottery, I'm not suggesting that people who succeeded through hard work had it "given" to them. I'm pointing out that people who succeed through hard work are outnumbered greatly by those who don't succeed through hard work, just like people who win the lottery are outnumbered greatly by those who play the lottery and don't win. 

 

[kutta]

I think you read something different than what I intended in what I wrote. By comparing success through hard work to winning the lottery, I'm not suggesting that people who succeeded through hard work had it "given" to them. I'm pointing out that people who succeed through hard work are outnumbered greatly by those who don't succeed through hard work, just like people who win the lottery are outnumbered greatly by those who play the lottery and don't win. 

What I read was (thought I quoted your other post):

The belief that the American Dream is a result of hard work is  . The only way to achieve the american dream is to buy assets low and sell them high. Hard work is for chumps. 

I disagree with that entire statement.

 

[Zegras11]

The lottery is a long shot.  I don't believe the odds are so stacked.  I don't believe all of the people who thrive financially are all so special or so lucky.  I think the formula is pretty simple, and exactly as it was taught to me growing up.  Work hard and sacrifice more?  Make more later.  Enjoy yourselves now instead?  Probably don't.  

It all comes down to choices and what people want an how they want to set priorities.  It may be that the game has become harder, and more competitive, and that you need to work even harder now to secure a future.  Maybe that's the debate.  But I don't see the whole "hard work is a bunch of hogwash."  

Have to agree here.  I came from middle class, but was on my own at 17 1/2 and got no support after that as parents divorced. I made the choices to put myself where I am today.   I have lived the American dream.  And I agree it's harder now to do that, but it's not impossible. The problem at the bottom is so many have lost hope of that.  90% of my RE business is being built about correcting that.  Everyone that's doing well needs to reach out to someone that is not and help guide them  by whatever means necessary to help them make a better life for themselves.  Even if it's just educating them on better ways to move upwards.

 

[Politician Spock]

What I read was (thought I quoted your other post):

I disagree with that entire statement.

So you dislike hyperbole. Got it. 

 

[Otis]

I also agree with Otis. Every successful person I know, myself included, worked their asses off to get there. None of it was "given" to them. And that includes the billionaire owners of the company that recently bought my company.

I will grant that some folks have a leg up - the middle class white kid has a much greater chance of making it than the inner city black kid. But that does not diminish the hard work the middle class white kid has to put in in order to be successful.

All this.  And by the way, in my experience, it's not "work your ### off till the finish line" till you make it, and then you just kick back and watch the money roll in for the rest of your career.  For me it's work your ### off for a long time, and then once you "make it", continue working your ### off -- perhaps even harder than before -- if you want ot keep "making it."  It's not like you then finally just get to hang out and reap all the rewards from a lounge chair.  

And that's true for me and all the guys in my firm who are successful.  There are lots of guys in a law firm who did pretty well, ended up working in a law firm making decent money, but who never elevate to the next level, because they aren't tireless about it.  Maybe they make really nice money as associates but they'll never advance to partnership; maybe they advance to partnership but never do as well as the top partners; etc.  I've seen a direct correlation between the work and the results.  Some guys never "turn off" -- they are 24/7; others enjoy their evenings and weekends more.  Some folks are out the door at 5 or 6 and pretty much done for the night; others are there late, or are out the door at 5 or 6 but, after putting their kids to bed, are back online working for their "evening session."  Some guys are willing to jump on a plane and do the painful client development junkets and be away from their families; others don't really bother to make that effort.  

Again, not saying any of these choics are "better."  They can be grueling choices and come at a high price in a personal and family life, in your health, etc.  But those are the choices some people are just willing or programmed to make.  And they directly impact financial gains. And that's just in this one little setting. 

 

[kutta]

So you dislike hyperbole. Got it. 

Actually, yes. Not really a fan of it.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

The world needs ditch diggers too

 

[Dedfin]

I think there are more people that do work hard and when presented with choices make good ones, yet have no improved their station, as opposed to Otis-level financial success.  Maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe you good people that are much smarter than I can explain how, or why.

 

[kutta]

I think there are more people that do work hard and when presented with choices make good ones, yet have no improved their station, as opposed to Otis-level financial success.  Maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe you good people that are much smarter than I can explain how, or why.

I agree with this. A lot of it is career choice, and a lot of it is being really good at what you do. A lot of people work hard, but they just aren't very good at what they do. 

A lot of people also don't have the desire to start a business. IMO, business ownership is a great way to financial success. There are only so many hours in a day that someone can work, so if you are getting paid by someone, the only money you can make is how much you can work. But once you have other people working for you, your income potential is limitless. The same is true of sales, but to a different extent.

A lot of people have service jobs, engineering jobs, electrician jobs, etc., and they may all pay OK. But they are never going to be "rich" no matter how hard they work because it's just too hard to save and invest money when the only money you have coming in is from the work of your own hands.

 

[Otis]

I think there are more people that do work hard and when presented with choices make good ones, yet have no improved their station, as opposed to Otis-level financial success.  Maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe you good people that are much smarter than I can explain how, or why.

I'm sure there are some people who work hard and make good choices and still don't elevate; but I bet most do.  In part "good choices," I think means finding the right fit for your skill set.  I could have tried really, really hard to be a rock star or play for the Knicks.   No matter how hard I would have worked, those probably would not have been good choices for me.  I could probably have chosen to be a teacher instead; that probably would have been a good choice for me in a number of respects, and I'd probably have a much more pleasant work-life balance, but it would have been a bad choice from a purely financial perspective.  I could have chosen to be an artist, but I such at art, and probably that would have been an awful choice.

On that note, I also think there probably is some impact of natural ability too.  Not everyone can go to medical school or law school or engineering school and succeed; there's a certain minimum threshold for brainpower there.  Not everyone can be a successful artist or musician, and there are certain talent thresholds there.  Not everyone is going to be a great public speaker, good with people, adept at problem solving, etc. etc.  All sorts of skills fit well into all sorts of different jobs, and that matching is important.  It is maybe the case that certain abilities fit well with the highest-paying jobs, and so people with those god-given abilities are more likely to do well financially.  Let's face it, a really dumb, talentless kid in the elementary school is probably less likely to have huge financial opportunities than the kid in the gifted program.  That's just one example.  

Maybe that's the factor you're trying to get at, or the differentiator here: natural ability.  And you're right, there's not much that can be done about that -- you can compensate through hard work and good choices, but only to a certain limit.  

 

[Otis]

I agree with this. A lot of it is career choice, and a lot of it is being really good at what you do. A lot of people work hard, but they just aren't very good at what they do. 

A lot of people also don't have the desire to start a business. IMO, business ownership is a great way to financial success. There are only so many hours in a day that someone can work, so if you are getting paid by someone, the only money you can make is how much you can work. But once you have other people working for you, your income potential is limitless. The same is true of sales, but to a different extent.

A lot of people have service jobs, engineering jobs, electrician jobs, etc., and they may all pay OK. But they are never going to be "rich" no matter how hard they work because it's just too hard to save and invest money when the only money you have coming in is from the work of your own hands.

This.  It's all about leverage.  But you have to put yourselves in a position to employ leverage, and the formula for that is some combination of hard work, opportunity, talent, and choices.  Not sure in what order.  

 

[Otis]

This is a conversation near and dear my heart, as I'm 30k feet up on the 4th leg of a weeklong business journey that had me in the office today (Saturday) at one of our satellite locations, and would have potentially had me there tomorrow too if I didn't have a good-natured colleague who offered to relieve me.  I hate traveling; I hate working weekends; but here I am, doing things I hate, because that's the choice I've made (and continue to make).  And this is one example of too many.  

And I believe lots of people could be in my same shoes if they wanted to make those choices.  I think many just want to make different choices.  And I surely don't blame them for that.

 

[msommer]

This is a conversation near and dear my heart, as I'm 30k feet up on the 4th leg of a weeklong business journey that had me in the office today (Saturday) at one of our satellite locations, and would have potentially had me there tomorrow too if I didn't have a good-natured colleague who offered to relieve me.  I hate traveling; I hate working weekends; but here I am, doing things I hate, because that's the choice I've made (and continue to make).  And this is one example of too many.  

And I believe lots of people could be in my same shoes if they wanted to make those choices.  I think many just want to make different choices.  And I surely don't blame them for that.

I read this aloud and somehow it sounded a lot like this

 

[Politician Spock]

Since all the "successful" are coming out and singing the praises of how hard work paid off for them, let me share my story.

I as well succeeded through hard work. Rose through the ranks of IT to the point where my consulting services were in demand across the country. Spent many years traveling the country. And because I was solving high stress situations, I was paid ridiculously well... until one day I started having ear problems. I started losing hearing from it, had a constant ringing in it and it always felt like it was clogged with water... then the episodes of vertigo started. Turns out I had developed Meniere's disease... and it's incurable. When I asked me doctor how I got it, he said it's usually caused by injury or stress.... and I didn't have an injury. The only source of stress in my life was my job. So my hard work resulted in me having to live the rest of my life with a 24/7 ringing in my ear, always feeling like it's full of water, struggling to hear people with one ear, and random episode of vertigo.... yeah.

But what really changed my outlook on life is that I may have been lucky. Hard work could have resulted in my having a heart attack, or a stroke, or something a lot worse than just Meniere's disease. So I consider myself lucky that I now know not to fall for the "hard work" lie. Fortunately for me though because of my hard work I have the capital to do life the non-chump way. The stock market.... nah... that's for preserving wealth. It's not where wealth is created. The stock market is the exit strategy for those who have achieved wealth through venture capitalism. Fortunately for me I had a business that need venture capital, so I became my own venture capitalist. We launched our first location earlier this year and the response has been amazing. Over 13,000 fans on facebook already. Made a profit in our first month open, and when our first year ends in a few months, will have a profitable first year. We're building a brand that had $0 value, and will someday be worth millions. That's how you create wealth. I don't work hard at it.... at least no where near the amount of effort I gave my IT career. I consciously avoid doing things to keep my stress level low. I refuse to let this opportunity end up causing me the same amount of stress working for the corporate world did.

But perhaps most importantly it has helped me see just how much of an exception I was in the world by succeeding through hard work. The people I hired worked hard for me... so hard I actually tell them to stop working so hard. At first they looked at me like I'm nuts. But after hearing what hard work did to me health they begin to understand.... and some of them have actually been brought to tears.  These are people who make $10 to $15 an hour. They've been taught to work hard, work hard, work hard... but at $10 to $15 an hour, they're never going to achieve the success I had in IT. I was making over $100 an hour when I finally quit. Working hard would never produce for them the capital working hard produced for me. But it would produce the same health problems it gave me. 

If life is about working hard, then life sucks. Of course, what I've posted will bring in the whole "work/life balance" discussion. But again, so what. The people making $10 to $15 an hour from me aren't going to get anywhere whether they work hard or do the work/life balance work I ask them to do. I'm just helping them avoid a heart attack. If they want to achieve the american dream, they'll either need capital, or be in the small percentage of people who have talents and skills to make hard work result income that allows them to acquire capital. 

 

[kutta]

This is a conversation near and dear my heart, as I'm 30k feet up on the 4th leg of a weeklong business journey that had me in the office today (Saturday) at one of our satellite locations, and would have potentially had me there tomorrow too if I didn't have a good-natured colleague who offered to relieve me.  I hate traveling; I hate working weekends; but here I am, doing things I hate, because that's the choice I've made (and continue to make).  And this is one example of too many.  

And I believe lots of people could be in my same shoes if they wanted to make those choices.  I think many just want to make different choices.  And I surely don't blame them for that.

Right there with you. I'm planning my January and am finding that I'll be home for a total of about 10 days of the month. I'm not complaining at all - and actually, I like travelling and my wife really doesn't mind all that much. But I'm just pointing out that's the choice I've made and like you said, a lot of people don't want to live that way or make those choices. And that's great. I don't disparage them for their choices, and they shouldn't lump us in with the mythical "evil rich guys who have had everything given to them" crowd.

 

[Dedfin]

I agree with this. A lot of it is career choice, and a lot of it is being really good at what you do. A lot of people work hard, but they just aren't very good at what they do. 

A lot of people also don't have the desire to start a business. IMO, business ownership is a great way to financial success. There are only so many hours in a day that someone can work, so if you are getting paid by someone, the only money you can make is how much you can work. But once you have other people working for you, your income potential is limitless. The same is true of sales, but to a different extent.

A lot of people have service jobs, engineering jobs, electrician jobs, etc., and they may all pay OK. But they are never going to be "rich" no matter how hard they work because it's just too hard to save and invest money when the only money you have coming in is from the work of your own hands.

OK, so there are more traits than hard work and good decision making (at least not ####### up).  Maybe being able to analyze risk is another trait.  I also think luck is another "trait".  Successful business owners should probably know that some of their business success comes from luck.  Right place/right time/meeting the right people isn't necessarily in your control.

Since we are sharing anecdotes, I'll go.  When I was in college, I joined a fraternity.  I was a lower middle class person and most of my brothers weren't.  Most of my brothers were sons of lawyers, doctors and other highly paid professionals.  When they graduated, they either went onto a professional school or into business.  Some of those that went to some of the better professional schools and (higher paid) positions afterwards said they probably wouldn't have gotten there without some help from their fathers.  A close friend of mine who's father was a cardiologist got a job with a medical device company at a level that no one could get unless strings were pulled (senior management).  Good for him.  Now we can say that all these guys worked for their station in life, and there are no statistics that show that they inherited what they got, but from this poor kid's perspective they absolutely did.  Is this a statistically significant group of people?  I don't know.  It's just my experience.  I think much of this overrides intelligence and good choice making because alot of my brothers were absolute dumbasses.

 

[Dedfin]

I'm sure there are some people who work hard and make good choices and still don't elevate; but I bet most do.  In part "good choices," I think means finding the right fit for your skill set.  I could have tried really, really hard to be a rock star or play for the Knicks.   No matter how hard I would have worked, those probably would not have been good choices for me.  I could probably have chosen to be a teacher instead; that probably would have been a good choice for me in a number of respects, and I'd probably have a much more pleasant work-life balance, but it would have been a bad choice from a purely financial perspective.  I could have chosen to be an artist, but I such at art, and probably that would have been an awful choice.

On that note, I also think there probably is some impact of natural ability too.  Not everyone can go to medical school or law school or engineering school and succeed; there's a certain minimum threshold for brainpower there.  Not everyone can be a successful artist or musician, and there are certain talent thresholds there.  Not everyone is going to be a great public speaker, good with people, adept at problem solving, etc. etc.  All sorts of skills fit well into all sorts of different jobs, and that matching is important.  It is maybe the case that certain abilities fit well with the highest-paying jobs, and so people with those god-given abilities are more likely to do well financially.  Let's face it, a really dumb, talentless kid in the elementary school is probably less likely to have huge financial opportunities than the kid in the gifted program.  That's just one example.  

Maybe that's the factor you're trying to get at, or the differentiator here: natural ability.  And you're right, there's not much that can be done about that -- you can compensate through hard work and good choices, but only to a certain limit.  

Thanks for the thoughts, what I wish we could find out is how many people fail/get shut off from economic growth due to a combination of their starting station/uncontrollable events rather than due to their own lack of ability.  Now if it's just due to their own lack of ability, then I guess our economic system is functioning correctly (if we believe in meritocracy).

 

[kutta]

OK, so there are more traits than hard work and good decision making (at least not ####### up).  Maybe being able to analyze risk is another trait.  I also think luck is another "trait".  Successful business owners should probably know that some of their business success comes from luck.  Right place/right time/meeting the right people isn't necessarily in your control.

Since we are sharing anecdotes, I'll go.  When I was in college, I joined a fraternity.  I was a lower middle class person and most of my brothers weren't.  Most of my brothers were sons of lawyers, doctors and other highly paid professionals.  When they graduated, they either went onto a professional school or into business.  Some of those that went to some of the better professional schools and (higher paid) positions afterwards said they probably wouldn't have gotten there without some help from their fathers.  A close friend of mine who's father was a cardiologist got a job with a medical device company at a level that no one could get unless strings were pulled (senior management).  Good for him.  Now we can say that all these guys worked for their station in life, and there are no statistics that show that they inherited what they got, but from this poor kid's perspective they absolutely did.  Is this a statistically significant group of people?  I don't know.  It's just my experience.  I think much of this overrides intelligence and good choice making because alot of my brothers were absolute dumbasses.

I pretty much agree with this. Perhaps we can say - all successful people work hard, but not everyone who works hard is successful. Of course, the word "all" doesn't literally mean "all," but you get the point.

And as I said in my post, the middle class white kid has an advantage over the inner city black kid. And the rich white kid has an ever bigger advantage. But that doesn't mean those people still don't work hard to get what they have. Their path may be easier than yours, but in order to be successful, they still need to work hard.

And I also agree with your comment about luck. I am under no illusions that I had some very lucky breaks with my business. There were times when if things would have gone a slightly different way, I would have been out of business and in debt. I had a lot of luck along the way. But again, that does not mean I didn't work 80 hours per week for almost 10 straight years. It means I caught some breaks and capitilized on them.

 

[Zegras11]

Since all the "successful" are coming out and singing the praises of how hard work paid off for them, let me share my story.

I as well succeeded through hard work. Rose through the ranks of IT to the point where my consulting services were in demand across the country. Spent many years traveling the country. And because I was solving high stress situations, I was paid ridiculously well... until one day I started having ear problems. I started losing hearing from it, had a constant ringing in it and it always felt like it was clogged with water... then the episodes of vertigo started. Turns out I had developed Meniere's disease... and it's incurable. When I asked me doctor how I got it, he said it's usually caused by injury or stress.... and I didn't have an injury. The only source of stress in my life was my job. So my hard work resulted in me having to live the rest of my life with a 24/7 ringing in my ear, always feeling like it's full of water, struggling to hear people with one ear, and random episode of vertigo.... yeah.

But what really changed my outlook on life is that I may have been lucky. Hard work could have resulted in my having a heart attack, or a stroke, or something a lot worse than just Meniere's disease. So I consider myself lucky that I now know not to fall for the "hard work" lie. Fortunately for me though because of my hard work I have the capital to do life the non-chump way. The stock market.... nah... that's for preserving wealth. It's not where wealth is created. The stock market is the exit strategy for those who have achieved wealth through venture capitalism. Fortunately for me I had a business that need venture capital, so I became my own venture capitalist. We launched our first location earlier this year and the response has been amazing. Over 13,000 fans on facebook already. Made a profit in our first month open, and when our first year ends in a few months, will have a profitable first year. We're building a brand that had $0 value, and will someday be worth millions. That's how you create wealth. I don't work hard at it.... at least no where near the amount of effort I gave my IT career. I consciously avoid doing things to keep my stress level low. I refuse to let this opportunity end up causing me the same amount of stress working for the corporate world did.

But perhaps most importantly it has helped me see just how much of an exception I was in the world by succeeding through hard work. The people I hired worked hard for me... so hard I actually tell them to stop working so hard. At first they looked at me like I'm nuts. But after hearing what hard work did to me health they begin to understand.... and some of them have actually been brought to tears.  These are people who make $10 to $15 an hour. They've been taught to work hard, work hard, work hard... but at $10 to $15 an hour, they're never going to achieve the success I had in IT. I was making over $100 an hour when I finally quit. Working hard would never produce for them the capital working hard produced for me. But it would produce the same health problems it gave me. 

If life is about working hard, then life sucks. Of course, what I've posted will bring in the whole "work/life balance" discussion. But again, so what. The people making $10 to $15 an hour from me aren't going to get anywhere whether they work hard or do the work/life balance work I ask them to do. I'm just helping them avoid a heart attack. If they want to achieve the american dream, they'll either need capital, or be in the small percentage of people who have talents and skills to make hard work result income that allows them to acquire capital. 

A lot of my clients don't make a lot of money. They are some of the happiest people I've ever seen because they work hard and take time out to enjoy the outdoor activities here in Idaho.  I've learned a ton from them. Doing my best each year to implement things that help me slow down.  I've had three serious health issues from working too hard.  

 

[msommer]

OK, so there are more traits than hard work and good decision making (at least not ####### up).  Maybe being able to analyze risk is another trait.  I also think luck is another "trait".  Successful business owners should probably know that some of their business success comes from luck.  Right place/right time/meeting the right people isn't necessarily in your control.

And I am sure there are more traits required.

I've never understood this fascination with finding one (part of a) solution and then repeating it religiously as if it was was the answer to the ultimate question about life, the universe and Everything (Yes, 42), instead of realizing that few problems have simple one issue solutions 

 

[kutta]

Since all the "successful" are coming out and singing the praises of how hard work paid off for them, let me share my story.

I as well succeeded through hard work. Rose through the ranks of IT to the point where my consulting services were in demand across the country. Spent many years traveling the country. And because I was solving high stress situations, I was paid ridiculously well... until one day I started having ear problems. I started losing hearing from it, had a constant ringing in it and it always felt like it was clogged with water... then the episodes of vertigo started. Turns out I had developed Meniere's disease... and it's incurable. When I asked me doctor how I got it, he said it's usually caused by injury or stress.... and I didn't have an injury. The only source of stress in my life was my job. So my hard work resulted in me having to live the rest of my life with a 24/7 ringing in my ear, always feeling like it's full of water, struggling to hear people with one ear, and random episode of vertigo.... yeah.

But what really changed my outlook on life is that I may have been lucky. Hard work could have resulted in my having a heart attack, or a stroke, or something a lot worse than just Meniere's disease. So I consider myself lucky that I now know not to fall for the "hard work" lie. Fortunately for me though because of my hard work I have the capital to do life the non-chump way. The stock market.... nah... that's for preserving wealth. It's not where wealth is created. The stock market is the exit strategy for those who have achieved wealth through venture capitalism. Fortunately for me I had a business that need venture capital, so I became my own venture capitalist. We launched our first location earlier this year and the response has been amazing. Over 13,000 fans on facebook already. Made a profit in our first month open, and when our first year ends in a few months, will have a profitable first year. We're building a brand that had $0 value, and will someday be worth millions. That's how you create wealth. I don't work hard at it.... at least no where near the amount of effort I gave my IT career. I consciously avoid doing things to keep my stress level low. I refuse to let this opportunity end up causing me the same amount of stress working for the corporate world did.

But perhaps most importantly it has helped me see just how much of an exception I was in the world by succeeding through hard work. The people I hired worked hard for me... so hard I actually tell them to stop working so hard. At first they looked at me like I'm nuts. But after hearing what hard work did to me health they begin to understand.... and some of them have actually been brought to tears.  These are people who make $10 to $15 an hour. They've been taught to work hard, work hard, work hard... but at $10 to $15 an hour, they're never going to achieve the success I had in IT. I was making over $100 an hour when I finally quit. Working hard would never produce for them the capital working hard produced for me. But it would produce the same health problems it gave me. 

If life is about working hard, then life sucks. Of course, what I've posted will bring in the whole "work/life balance" discussion. But again, so what. The people making $10 to $15 an hour from me aren't going to get anywhere whether they work hard or do the work/life balance work I ask them to do. I'm just helping them avoid a heart attack. If they want to achieve the american dream, they'll either need capital, or be in the small percentage of people who have talents and skills to make hard work result income that allows them to acquire capital. 

Interesting story. 

I think we all agree that the $10-$15 an hour guy is never going to "make it," even with yearly raises and hard work. And it sounds like you agree that you would not have had the success you had in IT without hard work. 

And I agree with the bolded. We probably disagree on the percentage of folks with the talents and skills necessary, but I do agree that not everyone is going to be super successful even if they work as hard as possible. 

 

[Politician Spock]

A lot of my clients don't make a lot of money. They are some of the happiest people I've ever seen because they work hard and take time out to enjoy the outdoor activities here in Idaho.  I've learned a ton from them. Doing my best each year to implement things that help me slow down.  I've had three serious health issues from working too hard.  

Yep... my life post Meniere's disease is 100 times better than my life before it. I can actually sleep at night. I didn't know I wasn't until I started to really sleep at night. Hard work sucks. 

 

[Dedfin]

Yep... my life post Meniere's disease is 100 times better than my life before it. I can actually sleep at night. I didn't know I wasn't until I started to really sleep at night. Hard work sucks. 

There are many people in the lower/middle class that would take a heart attack in 20 years if they can keep their kid properly fed and clothed in the present.  No hyperbole.  Hard work does suck, but not working hard is a luxury for many.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

I'm definitely not rich but my annual income is well above the national average.   Don't work very hard at all.