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HBO - Song of Ice&Fire Series -Varsity Thread - no TV only whiners (3 Viewers)

When little finger broke the necklace didn't it look like all the stones where there?
That's the only thing....

If all the stones were there.....Littlefinger breaks one, tosses it in the boat. It's assumed that Dontos will be found in the boat with the necklace missing one stone. If the necklace is tested.....it'll probably be confirmed that it was poisoned and that Sansa was to blame. L-Finger is setting Sansa up.....but at the same time, if all the stones are there (which they must have been if he took one)......then who and how was Joffery posioned?
There was a stone missing. Oleana took one (see the video scene where she is holding the necklace and saying it's horrible to kill men at a wedding, the top right one is missing after that). Littlefinger crushed another one (now 1 missing, 1 crushed) and threw it back on Dontos. I assume his body with the necklace will be found, others will know he was sweet on Sansa (plus it's her necklace) and so it will be blindingly obvious that Sansa (and Tyrion) are setup to take the fall for Littlefinger's and Oleana's ploy.

What I don't remember from the books is the reason for Oleana being willing to take out Joffrey now (as opposed to after his line is established through Margery). Just cause he was a horrible person/king/husband/etc? Hoping her grand-daughter will just automatically be wed to Tommen who seems much better? Afraid for Margery's life with Joffrey? Only valid opportunity?
Part of the reason was that Joffrey is Joffrey and Lady Olenna didn't want Margaery to have to deal with that (and that Tommen would be a better match). Another reason is that, once Joffrey did something to Margaery (this is courtesy of Littlefinger's explanation to Sansa) that Loras (who is on the Kingsguard in the books after the Battle of the Blackwater) would kill Joffrey. Basically, it was a preemptive strike to protect House Tyrell and to get a more suitable match for Margaery.

 
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So apparently the Director said the scene with Jaime and Cersei wasn't rape and is now being skewered by every self-righteous piece of crap on the Internet.

 
So apparently the Director said the scene with Jaime and Cersei wasn't rape and is now being skewered by every self-righteous piece of crap on the Internet.
I've read how the book describes it, and that's fine, but that was definitely a rape scene on tv the other night. It's pretty ridiculous that nobody in editing picked up on that.

 
Umm there are like a bagillion rapes in the book.

IOW

Rape is to GOT as Quidditch is to Harry Potter

I agree it was portrayed as a rape much in the same way that Brett raped Scarlett in Gone with the Wind. I'm just tired of the Fauxtrage-Apology cycles of the internet. I am praying for the day when someone in his position takes the podium and says something to the tune of "Yes, I expressed an opinion that not many share and is obviously unpopular. But you know what? #### all you self-righteous pieces of #### demanding an apology. 99% of you have never done #### in your life and you're nothing to me, or anyone else. The only reason I am up here is because I am doing something, so instead of yelling at me through your ####### facebook accounts, how about you go do something with your life."

Also there is the fact that she started kissing him passionately about halfway through.

 
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That's the other thing about the rape scene. IN the books that was the first time they had seen each other IIRC. In the tv show she has already rejected him. "You were gone too long."

 
Umm there are like a bagillion rapes in the book.

IOW

Rape is to GOT as Quidditch is to Harry Potter

I agree it was portrayed as a rape much in the same way that Brett raped Scarlett in Gone with the Wind. I'm just tired of the Fauxtrage-Apology cycles of the internet. I am praying for the day when someone in his position takes the podium and says something to the tune of "Yes, I expressed an opinion that not many share and is obviously unpopular. But you know what? #### all you self-righteous pieces of #### demanding an apology. 99% of you have never done #### in your life and you're nothing to me, or anyone else. The only reason I am up here is because I am doing something, so instead of yelling at me through your ####### facebook accounts, how about you go do something with your life."

Also there is the fact that she started kissing him passionately about halfway through.
Must be a repubican. Cersei was clearly asking for it when she kept saying "No!"

 
I'l have to watch it again, I thought I heard Cersei saying: "Don't...Stop, Don't...Stop"

Really kind of asking for it, imo.
Is this shtick?

There's a big difference between "Don't....Stop," and "Don't! Stop!" mixed with some "No!"

How could anyone not see that as a rape? I'm not indicting you here, Sinn, as much the director. I think if you watch again you'll agree its hella rapey.

 
In the books was the sept Jamie/Cersi scene post Tywin's death or Joffrey's? I can't remember the timeline.
IIRC, neither. I think it was when Jamie first came back to Kings Landing
It's post Joffrey. It is when he first came back, but Joffrey is already dead when Jaime returns.
This.

Martin's scene was the product of a very strong play of emotions - especially grief. Grief can lead to sex because of the desperate need to be comforted. So you get a grief-stricken Cersei's emotions amped exponentially by seeing the guy she loves for the first time in over a year (whom may have been dead, for all she knew), mixed with Jaimee's grief (His Royal Madness was his son too) and it made perfect (albeit creepy) sense for them to have sex in the crypt. I didn't have a problem with the book version. It made sense.

Everything but the grief was absent in the TV scene because the show messed with the timing of Jaimee's return. And then this idiot director goes and makes it all rapey, something I don't see Jaimee ever doing to Cersei. Jamiee can be an evil mofo, but the Jaimee at this point was already changing into a more honorable man. No way he rapes the woman he loves.

If anyone sees/hears of Martin's opinion on that scene, I'd love to see it. I suspect he's contractually obligated to not say anything critical about the show, but you never know.


 
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Martin came out and said it wasn't a rape in the books, and basically that he didn't know why the directors shot it the way they did. There's an article linked from CNN.com this morning.

 
Martin's scene was the product of a very strong play of emotions - especially grief. Grief can lead to sex because of the desperate need to be comforted. So you get a grief-stricken Cersei's emotions amped exponentially by seeing the guy she loves for the first time in over a year (whom may have been dead, for all she knew), mixed with Jaimee's grief (His Royal Madness was his son too) and it made perfect (albeit creepy) sense for them to have sex in the crypt. I didn't have a problem with the book version. It made sense.

Everything but the grief was absent in the TV scene because the show messed with the timing of Jaimee's return. And then this idiot director goes and makes it all rapey, something I don't see Jaimee ever doing to Cersei. Jamiee can be an evil mofo, but the Jaimee at this point was already changing into a more honorable man. No way he rapes the woman he loves.

If anyone sees/hears of Martin's opinion on that scene, I'd love to see it. I suspect he's contractually obligated to not say anything critical about the show, but you never know.
He wrote about it.

As for your question... I think the "butterfly effect" that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey's death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other's company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that's just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime's POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don't know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cersei's dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression — but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

That's really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing... but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.
 
Book scene - not too far different than the show scene - perhaps a little over-acted

“You shall,” Cersei promised. “There’s to be a trial. When you hear all he did, you’ll want him dead as much as I do.” She touched his face. “I was lost without you, Jaime. I was afraid the Starks would send me your head. I could not have borne that.” She kissed him. A light kiss, the merest brush of her lips on his, but he could feel her tremble as he slid his arms around her. “I am not whole without you.”

There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons …”

“The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference.

“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.

But no sooner were they done than the queen said, “Let me up. If we are discovered like this …”

Reluctantly he rolled away and helped her off the altar. The pale marble was smeared with blood. Jaime wiped it clean with his sleeve, then bent to pick up the candles he had knocked over. Fortunately they had all gone out when they fell. If the sept had caught fire I might never have noticed.”
 
Umm there are like a bagillion rapes in the book.

IOW

Rape is to GOT as Quidditch is to Harry Potter

I agree it was portrayed as a rape much in the same way that Brett raped Scarlett in Gone with the Wind. I'm just tired of the Fauxtrage-Apology cycles of the internet. I am praying for the day when someone in his position takes the podium and says something to the tune of "Yes, I expressed an opinion that not many share and is obviously unpopular. But you know what? #### all you self-righteous pieces of #### demanding an apology. 99% of you have never done #### in your life and you're nothing to me, or anyone else. The only reason I am up here is because I am doing something, so instead of yelling at me through your ####### facebook accounts, how about you go do something with your life."

Also there is the fact that she started kissing him passionately about halfway through.
Must be a repubican. Cersei was clearly asking for it when she kept saying "No!"
If you want to join the lynch mob by all means. It's a tv show that has already depicted rape numerous times. I'm tired of everyone being forced to apologize anytime they say something offensive.

 
Martin's scene was the product of a very strong play of emotions - especially grief. Grief can lead to sex because of the desperate need to be comforted. So you get a grief-stricken Cersei's emotions amped exponentially by seeing the guy she loves for the first time in over a year (whom may have been dead, for all she knew), mixed with Jaimee's grief (His Royal Madness was his son too) and it made perfect (albeit creepy) sense for them to have sex in the crypt. I didn't have a problem with the book version. It made sense.

Everything but the grief was absent in the TV scene because the show messed with the timing of Jaimee's return. And then this idiot director goes and makes it all rapey, something I don't see Jaimee ever doing to Cersei. Jamiee can be an evil mofo, but the Jaimee at this point was already changing into a more honorable man. No way he rapes the woman he loves.

If anyone sees/hears of Martin's opinion on that scene, I'd love to see it. I suspect he's contractually obligated to not say anything critical about the show, but you never know.
He wrote about it.

As for your question... I think the "butterfly effect" that I have spoken of so often was at work here. In the novels, Jaime is not present at Joffrey's death, and indeed, Cersei has been fearful that he is dead himself, that she has lost both the son and the father/ lover/ brother. And then suddenly Jaime is there before her. Maimed and changed, but Jaime nonetheless. Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.

The whole dynamic is different in the show, where Jaime has been back for weeks at the least, maybe longer, and he and Cersei have been in each other's company on numerous occasions, often quarreling. The setting is the same, but neither character is in the same place as in the books, which may be why Dan & David played the sept out differently. But that's just my surmise; we never discussed this scene, to the best of my recollection.

Also, I was writing the scene from Jaime's POV, so the reader is inside his head, hearing his thoughts. On the TV show, the camera is necessarily external. You don't know what anyone is thinking or feeling, just what they are saying and doing.

If the show had retained some of Cersei's dialogue from the books, it might have left a somewhat different impression — but that dialogue was very much shaped by the circumstances of the books, delivered by a woman who is seeing her lover again for the first time after a long while apart during which she feared he was dead. I am not sure it would have worked with the new timeline.

That's really all I can say on this issue. The scene was always intended to be disturbing... but I do regret if it has disturbed people for the wrong reasons.
This is what I was thinking last week - Jamie's presence at the wedding may not have seemed like much of a departure at the time, but it really messes up the story line of his return to King's Landing, his family and the Kingsguard. Did they do it this way just to have that cute exchange between Jamie and Loras at the wedding or for Joffrey to insult him before he died? Disappointing.

 
Book scene - not too far different than the show scene - perhaps a little over-acted

“You shall,” Cersei promised. “There’s to be a trial. When you hear all he did, you’ll want him dead as much as I do.” She touched his face. “I was lost without you, Jaime. I was afraid the Starks would send me your head. I could not have borne that.” She kissed him. A light kiss, the merest brush of her lips on his, but he could feel her tremble as he slid his arms around her. “I am not whole without you.”

There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons …”

“The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference.

“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.

But no sooner were they done than the queen said, “Let me up. If we are discovered like this …”

Reluctantly he rolled away and helped her off the altar. The pale marble was smeared with blood. Jaime wiped it clean with his sleeve, then bent to pick up the candles he had knocked over. Fortunately they had all gone out when they fell. If the sept had caught fire I might never have noticed.”
The big difference is that in the book Cersei clearly gets into it. It didn't feel like it ever got to that point in the show.

 
Different subject - I'm forgetting, have they introduced Maynce's woman and son yet in the show? I'm thinking they haven't, but I'm not certain. I ask because they end up being pretty significant plot points. Also, did Sam move Gilly into moletown in the books? I'm not remembering that happening.

 
Different subject - I'm forgetting, have they introduced Maynce's woman and son yet in the show? I'm thinking they haven't, but I'm not certain. I ask because they end up being pretty significant plot points. Also, did Sam move Gilly into moletown in the books? I'm not remembering that happening.
No to both of these, I think.
 
So apparently the Director said the scene with Jaime and Cersei wasn't rape and is now being skewered by every self-righteous piece of crap on the Internet.
I've read how the book describes it, and that's fine, but that was definitely a rape scene on tv the other night. It's pretty ridiculous that nobody in editing picked up on that.
She was kissing him back. It's how it ended that messed it up.

 
If that wasn't a rape, then the directors did a poor job of showing it. My "unsullied" wife (non book-reader) viewed it as a rape. Her exact words were, "Damn just when I was starting to like Jaimie..."

 
Book scene - not too far different than the show scene - perhaps a little over-acted

“You shall,” Cersei promised. “There’s to be a trial. When you hear all he did, you’ll want him dead as much as I do.” She touched his face. “I was lost without you, Jaime. I was afraid the Starks would send me your head. I could not have borne that.” She kissed him. A light kiss, the merest brush of her lips on his, but he could feel her tremble as he slid his arms around her. “I am not whole without you.”

There was no tenderness in the kiss he returned to her, only hunger. Her mouth opened for his tongue. “No,” she said weakly when his lips moved down her neck, “not here. The septons …”

“The Others can take the septons.” He kissed her again, kissed her silent, kissed her until she moaned. Then he knocked the candles aside and lifted her up onto the Mother’s altar, pushing up her skirts and the silken shift beneath. She pounded on his chest with feeble fists, murmuring about the risk, the danger, about their father, about the septons, about the wrath of gods. He never heard her. He undid his breeches and climbed up and pushed her bare white legs apart. One hand slid up her thigh and underneath her smallclothes. When he tore them away, he saw that her moon’s blood was on her, but it made no difference.

“Hurry,” she was whispering now, “quickly, quickly, now, do it now, do me now. Jaime Jaime Jaime.” Her hands helped guide him. “Yes,” Cersei said as he thrust, “my brother, sweet brother, yes, like that, yes, I have you, you’re home now, you’re home now, you’re home.” She kissed his ear and stroked his short bristly hair. Jaime lost himself in her flesh. He could feel Cersei’s heart beating in time with his own, and the wetness of blood and seed where they were joined.

But no sooner were they done than the queen said, “Let me up. If we are discovered like this …”

Reluctantly he rolled away and helped her off the altar. The pale marble was smeared with blood. Jaime wiped it clean with his sleeve, then bent to pick up the candles he had knocked over. Fortunately they had all gone out when they fell. If the sept had caught fire I might never have noticed.”
I would have been appalled if they showed moon's blood. now THAT is going too far imo

 
If that wasn't a rape, then the directors did a poor job of showing it. My "unsullied" wife (non book-reader) viewed it as a rape. Her exact words were, "Damn just when I was starting to like Jaimie..."
3 or 4 people who watch but didn't read all said the same thing. "They started to make us like him and then he does this."

 
Changing the scene from "no, this is crazy, we might be caught" into "NO" also messes with the power dynamic between them quite a bit IMO.

 
If that wasn't a rape, then the directors did a poor job of showing it. My "unsullied" wife (non book-reader) viewed it as a rape. Her exact words were, "Damn just when I was starting to like Jaimie..."
This is my main problem with it. You were SUPPOSED to start liking Jaimee at this point. He's one of the most dynamic characters in the story. He goes from an utter villain to being wounded, marred, then transformed by the experience into something more honorable. He continues to get "good" and definitely sympathetic as the story progresses, but this idiot director pissed in that arc with his rapey idiocy.

 
IIRC, the first Dany-Drogo sex scene got pretty much the same treatment by the show.
Same as the book, and made perfect sense considering the circumstances.
The first Dany/Drogo scene definitely wasn't anything close to rape in the book - can't say the same about the show.
I guess we have different recollections. Mine is he took her, not with great force, and she submitted, but she submitted because she was a terrified 14 year old girl married to the guy. If you could call it marriage at that point.

 
IIRC, the first Dany-Drogo sex scene got pretty much the same treatment by the show.
Same as the book, and made perfect sense considering the circumstances.
The first Dany/Drogo scene definitely wasn't anything close to rape in the book - can't say the same about the show.
I guess we have different recollections. Mine is he took her, not with great force, and she submitted, but she submitted because she was a terrified 14 year old girl married to the guy. If you could call it marriage at that point.
It was a drawn out scene with her starting nervous and scared. He starts massaging her and trying to make her comfortable. He finally asks and she actually gives him verbal consent and initiates the sex. It wasn't anything close to a rape unless we are using some statutory rape definition.

 
If that wasn't a rape, then the directors did a poor job of showing it. My "unsullied" wife (non book-reader) viewed it as a rape. Her exact words were, "Damn just when I was starting to like Jaimie..."
This is my main problem with it. You were SUPPOSED to start liking Jaimee at this point. He's one of the most dynamic characters in the story. He goes from an utter villain to being wounded, marred, then transformed by the experience into something more honorable. He continues to get "good" and definitely sympathetic as the story progresses, but this idiot director pissed in that arc with his rapey idiocy.
Meh, it's only Cersei. :bag:

 
depicting mutilation and murder = okay

depicting rape = bad

odd

(I do agree the scene should have been shot a little different, solely because of audience's perception/misinterpretation. I viewed it as Cersei giving in after an initial "no, don't we shouldn't", but I had the benefit of the book).

Also, as pointed out, that scene in the book was when they first reunited. The show changed the context for better or worse.

Another interesting twist is that she was already boning the Kettleblack's by then.

 
Not a book reader here but I did not come away from that scene as "he raped her."

Should I have come away from that scene with a reaction of, "damn, he raped her!"

 

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