And if Baker Mayfield makes two more passes Sunday, the Ravens are likely watching the playoffs from their couches and the fans are ready to storm the gates. All while Harbaugh is exactly the same coach.
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HC Mike Tomlin, PIT (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter GROOT
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Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
The coach worship is pretty outstanding in this thread. In all my life I’ve never seen a coach take one snap. I have, though, seen Tomlin do absolutely piss poor in in game management, challenges, time management, I’ve seen him allow Ben to audible into stupid plays that cause picks at inopportune time, I’ve seen him lose multiple, multiple games that where sure fire wins and now I’ve seen the cracks in the locker room that expose the notion of him as a uniter and a motivator as facecous. I offered a full list of coaches I’d like to see the Steelers look at two pages ago and given tens of reasons why I’d like to see him gone. In fact this outrage and head banging against the wall should be on my side.
Outside of wins, why is Tomlin a “good” coach?
What has Tomlin done to suggest he is a superior game planner/“x’s and o’s” guy?
What coaches besides Hue Jackson and Marty Morhinwheg would have done conceivably worse than Tomlin given the talent on the team the last 7 years (1 conference championship game loss where he got schooled by BB’s superior planning)?
Outside of wins, why is Tomlin a “good” coach?
What has Tomlin done to suggest he is a superior game planner/“x’s and o’s” guy?
What coaches besides Hue Jackson and Marty Morhinwheg would have done conceivably worse than Tomlin given the talent on the team the last 7 years (1 conference championship game loss where he got schooled by BB’s superior planning)?
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
I'm not up on who the best head coaching candidates are. I'm not sure what your point is with asking me which person they should hire. It's not my job to interview/hire the next HC of the Steelers. They pay people alot of money to make that decision
Seems silly to say they should keep him because Im not sure who they should replace him with
Here is what I would consider a search list. There are others that I know nothing about that are getting several interviews including Indy’s DC, Eric Bienemy, Minnesota’s new OC, Tennessee’s OC, Duce Staley (former Pitt RB), and in house with Mike Munchak. There is not some absence of coaching candidates despite a lot of openings and you’d have to consider Pitt a premier landing spot for any HC.
Pittsburgh will not fire Tomlin. The people defending him will get the opportunity to see whether his cruise control demeanor actually steers the ship correctly in 2019 with a locker room developing more and more cracks. I think the criticisms of Tomlin are valid, strong and justified and I see zero harm venting the frustrations of a season with no playoff appearance that was directly tied to a coach’s weakness that has been exposed again and again and again. Vastly unpreparing, underestimating and losing to inferior NFL teams.
Excellent. How good do folks feel Indy’s DC, Eric Bienemy, Minnesota’s new OC, Tennessee’s OC, Duce Staley (former Pitt RB), and Mike Munchak would be an improvement over Tomlin?
What’s there to link? Quotes such as: “Harbaugh would be unemployed for negative minutes” or “Tomlin would be unemployed for 2 minutes”... it’s preposterous. These aren’t gods, they aren’t infallible. Bill Parcells had full control in Dallas and failed, BB failed in Cleveland, Mike Holmgren was on the verge of getting fired in Seattle before relinquishing personnel control and failed as a personnel man in Cleveland. Arizona offered Mike McCarthy total control of the Franchise. It’s not just on this board, it’s prevalent in league circles. It’s the same mistake the MLB made for years and years... thinking coaches are the sole reason for success.
Absolutely true. That's what fans do on message boards.
The difference between venting frustrations to deciding it's time to go is what's interesting to me. I know folks are in different places there.
If you think "Harbaugh would be unemployed for negative minutes" is "coach worship" or untrue, we'll just have to disagree on what "worship" means.
That's another (and interesting) discussion. I'll ask it with another thread so not to hi-jack this one.
I suppose that’s fair and maybe I’m playing fast and loose with “worship” but there is a football mantra that states the superior coaching is what wins games but fails to explain the Barry Switzers and Bill Callahan’s of the world. The Jim Fassel’s and Jeff Fishers and every mediocre/terrible coach like Ben McAdoo that has made the playoffs.
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
Imo, you dont get to have this both ways. Either you trust the brass to do what's best for this team, or you dont.
Either way is cool, but if you dont trust them I'd expect that you think you have better solutions/plans/ideas than they do.
Spin off Thread here for how much is a coach responsible. Used the best example with a team that's had much success for many years with the same coach. https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/topic/773576-how-much-of-teams-success-is-coach-responsible-for-bill-belichick-edition/
popeye
Footballguy
Lol, guy may be gone man. He has what, 3 interviews now? He’s honestly one guy I have no clue about whatsoever that is getting the interview everywhere treatment this offseason.
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Dizzy
Footballguy
The home loss to San Diego Chargers (~1994 AFCC) is the single biggest "WTF just happened" moment in my cache of bad Steelers memories.Ssshhhhhh...
Plenty of good ones though to tip the scales in the other direction!
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Up 10-3 and driving into SD territory then Barry Foster fumbles. What is it with Steeler RBs fumbling at the worst times. Spiny Mendenhal in the SB. Toussaint against Denver a few years ago. And as good of a season as he had, Conner had some crucial ones this year.The home loss to San Diego Chargers (~1994 AFCC) is the single biggest "WTF just happened" moment in my cache of bad Steelers memories.
Plenty of good ones though to tip the scales in the other direction!
belljr
Footballguy
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
Those are my quotes, or close enough it doesn't matter. I'll stand by them and eat a metric ton of crow if I'm wrong. I'd also like to see the link where I said these guys are gods. In my opinion, these are some screwed up dudes and have such warped views of reality as to be genuinely scary. That doesn't mean that both Harbaugh and Tomlin won't be hired within 12 seconds of being available..
I can not STAND the "we are at war, gentlemen" garbage the football industry vomits out. I think it's dangerous and crazy.
Y'all go on with your bad selves, but don't misrepresent what I say and try to project your own crap into them.
It’s far more than simple quotes from yourself. In fact, your pretty late to this party and I was probably picking out stuff I had most recently read in this thread off the top of my head. There have been a lot of excuses and forgiveness given to Tomlin in this thread solely on his W/L record that I think ignores his deficiencies week to week and in game. It’s kind of whatever at this point.
I’d really love to see a theoretical Tomlin in TB or Miami where the personnel structure is a mess and he doesn’t have superior offensive firepower to overcome the defensive whoa’s that he’ll never correct due to always defaulting to a probably defunct DC.
It’s true that it’s near impossible to find a BB or Bill Walsh and develop a two decade powerhouse. Does Tomlin even belong close to that category? I certainly don’t believe so.
Let me put it another way: if Mike Shanahan, Tony Dungy and Andy Reid are capable of being replaced and in a short period of time have their respective former teams win Superbowls, I see no reason why there wouldn’t be a coach out there that could do the same with Steelers. Would it be a decision for the short run to cap off Ben’s end of career? Absolutely and that’s probably the #1 reason why the Steelers won’t do it because they believe in stability over everything. And, ya, I’m probably being a bit overzealous with Reid and Shanahan because their franchises went through some intermediate pain before the SB wins. I think it’s still a reference point.
Shanahan: Took 7 years and the franchise bottoming out.
Reid: Took 5 years and the hiring of one of his proteges
Dungy (assuming you mean Bucs): only took one year, but they've sucked ever since; pretty sure they haven't won a single playoff game.
With the benefit of hindsight, it's not at all clear that all three of those firings weren't mistakes.
Ok.
But that's a LONG ways from saying Tomlin is a "god" or "worshiping" him.
That's not playing fast and loose. That's completely misrepresenting what was said.
Sorry for attempting to say I was sorry that he felt singled out.Ok.
But that's a LONG ways from saying Tomlin is a "god" or "worshiping" him.
That's not playing fast and loose. That's completely misrepresenting what was said.
I mean look at the BB thread you started... people saying coach is #1, not close, giving BB 70, 80, 90% credit. Yeesh. Tom Brady is perhaps the greatest QB ever. Where were Peyton’s respective coaches without him? Getting fired in NO, TB and Houston. How about John Elway? Did Shanahan ever get over that hump? Mike Ditka, by all reasonable standards was not a great HC, yet his 1985 Chicago Bears is considered one of, if not, the best team ever. This is probably a thread hijack so I’ll leave it at that but I’m not off my rocker to think that people around here are blindly giving these coaches an insane amount of credit without playing a down. I’m pretty sure there are even Bill Walsh quotes out there about the importance of personnel first and foremost.
I’m sort of tired of this argument. Fact is, Tomlin isn’t going anywhere. I don’t think he deserves it, I’ve stated my reasons why, I’ve offered alternatives and I don’t think it’s quite right that I and others who don’t particularly like Tomlin are being asked to hold a different standard while discussing this. Much like I can’t discuss the intricies of Matt Lafluer or Matt Eberflus, I don’t see anyone coming in here discussing the various intricacies of Tomlins offense, defense and in game management that makes him more than a league average HC with superior players.
Actually it would not surprise me if 2-3 of these guys would be as good as Tomlin if given the helm of the Steelers. Trouble is, which ones? Because there’s also a good chance half of them will completely bomb, because being a good coordinator doesn’t always translate to head coach success.
We’ll never know, because even if these guys get jobs down the line, situation, front office/owner meddling, lack of talent, can all derail a promising coach independent of his actual abilities. And some of these guys may not get a fair chance ever.
But I remember that when Tomlin was hired in the first place, he was just such an unheralded coordinator without a high national profile, and ended up (as we can see) being a quite good head coach.
I’ve long been in the camp that the Steelers could do better than Tomlin (and said the same about Cowher back in the day...good but overrated coach). But the tradeoff between long-term stability and finding the best possible coach is just like finding a franchise QB. There is something to be said for an organization having only three head coaches in my lifetime (vs. Arizona having had three in the last year).
“Settling” for a Rivers or Stafford is seen as better than diving back into the QB carosel in hopes of landing the next Rodgers or Brady. To me, Tomlin is to coaches what Stafford is to QBs. Good enough to be hard to replace, but not in the elite tier.
I think you summarized why this entire thread has often felt like people talking past each other. I totally get the people who point to Tomlin's deficiencies and argue that Pittsburgh can do better. That's a perfectly rational argument. But I haven't heard any of them engage with what you're talking about here: an organizational commitment to stability. The Steelers have basically declared that they're going to pick a HC and not overreact to a down year or two, or be dissatisfied with nearly annual playoff appearances just because those don't always lead to Super Bowls. Now, you can argue that's not a good organizational philosophy, or you can argue that it should have its limits. But if you do, you also have to reckon with the long-term impact that would have on the franchise. (I'm reminded of when IBM finally abandoned its "no-layoff" policy. That was probably a change that needed to happen. But it made IBM into a much different company, one that was a lot more like everyone else.)
Dizzy
Footballguy
^This^ is pretty funny.
I'm sure every fan base has it, but typical "Steeler Nation" assumption is that anything less than undefeated Super Bowl Champion every year is inconceivable.
Kind of like the prison visit/schedule scene from the movie Big Fan... "We're going 11-5, no wait 12-4, no wait... the NEP game is on my birthday... 13-3, no... a full moon on the BAL game... 14-2, OMG, new coach in CIN... we're going 15-1."
In reality plenty of AFC teams just as talented as Pittsburgh (or more), some with better QBs, some better coaches... only one winner every year in a league full of parody with ONE (1) outlier. If you can't hang, maybe easier for yourselves to just switch onto the Patriot bandwagon.
You still didnt answer a single question I asked... nor has anyone. Please don’t quote me if you’re going to waste time laughing. You have no argument why Tomlin is superior. Just say that you actually believe his record is a tangible assumption of his worth but you can not explain why mediocre/bad/terrible coaches have won divisional championships, gone to the playoffs, gone to Super Bowls, won Super Bowls.... I have listed many. What makes Tomlin so special man? Please enlighten me to a time where he schematically schooled someone or a moment you can envision that Tomlin and no other coach could do what he is doing? If not then stop dragging me into this thread... it’s pretty stale at this point. Also it’s not about the Super Bowl he’s been to one Conference Championship in SEVEN years. It’s been a decade since he won a Super Bowl. That should be every franchises goal, especially one with a HOF QB.
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Dizzy
Footballguy
Maybe a quick glance back to the OP and initial comments from 2015... same situation regarding Ben Roethlisberger. Be happy with what you've got... Tomlin/Big Ben << BB/TB12, no real story there. Changing coaches isn't going to change Ben.
bryhamm
Footballguy
So you don’t have any answers. I believe I was polite in asking you not to quote me if you don’t have any. I don’t need your suggestion in how I should feel about the franchise. If I haven’t been clear in how I feel here I believe I have in the Steelers thread. Respect the franchise, pinnacle of consistency, sick and tired of Tomlin’s BS. Now please don’t quote me again unless you intend to discuss why you think Tomlin somehow makes Ben a better QB.
If people continue to dismiss the complete collapse this year and losses to the Broncos and Raiders.... absolutely. No one is making it a two way street. Also if I chopped off everything before 2011, how do you feel about Tomlin?
bryhamm
Footballguy
and yet no one is mentioning that we actually beat the patriots and would have beaten the saints if there wasn't a gift penalty at the end.
I can also mention that they were 7-2-1, only two other teams missed the playoffs from that point. Both had their starting QB’s have season ending injuries. This wasn’t just A collapse it was THE collapse of the season.
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I revised my statement to say “season” due to the stat in question being since the modern playoff format of 1990: https://twitter.com/steelers_mwsn/status/1080190627705511936?s=21
Two other teams actually had a similar collapse this season: Redskins and Panthers, both also finished with their starting QB out. I do not think I am underestimating just how awful this collapse was. One of, if not the worst in modern NFL history. Yet, let’s forgive him because a Super Bowl won a decade ago. Ask the Raiders fans how they’re feeling about that one.
Two other teams actually had a similar collapse this season: Redskins and Panthers, both also finished with their starting QB out. I do not think I am underestimating just how awful this collapse was. One of, if not the worst in modern NFL history. Yet, let’s forgive him because a Super Bowl won a decade ago. Ask the Raiders fans how they’re feeling about that one.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
It was a terrible collapse but I'm not sure I would pin all of the losses on the head coach. Ultimately he is responsible so he gets the blame and deserves a lot of it but take the Saints game: I thought the game plan against the Saints was excellent -- it was a couple of late fumbles that cost them the game.
The Fearless
Footballguy
Tomlin has never had a losing season over 12 years. He has the 15th highest winning percentage in NFL coaching history.
Of the 14 coaches with a higher winning percentage, only 4 have coached more seasons than him.
Dude is literally on a HOF trajectory...
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Dizzy
Footballguy
I think Ben is a bigger problem than Tomlin and the Steelers success over the Cowher/Ben/Tomlin/Ben era is better than most franchises.
Does that satisfy your sense of entitlement?
pghrob
Footballguy
Tomlin benching AB was the right move.Joe Bryant said:
From his year end presser on Wed he was careful to state he decided not to dress AB due to uncertainty of his availability even after agent Drew Rosenhouse called him and said AB's knee was feeling better.
That decision appears it was not based on discipline but more so that he wasn't going to allow AB to play with an uncertain physical ability. His lack of communication with the team and coaching staff in the lead-up prompted Tomlin to go with the players that were there and ready to go. Whether that's the truth or just Tomlin's shaping the optics I'll let you decide.
Tomlin did indicate discipline is needed and will be delivered soon which is good enough for me. OF course since all of that transpired we see AB standing next to James Harrison in an Instagram post while Tomlin is running his Presser and they are indicating that Antonio's going to do an interview of his own that's going to be a real show stopper.
Tomlin indicated what amounts to him needing to look in the mirror to conduct personal assessment of his shortcomings as HC which is reasonable response.
Not sure this is “being cool to one another”... seems like a passive aggressive attack to an otherwise reasonable conversation from earlier. I’ve offered many, many counterpoints to Tomlin’s “HOF trajectory”, I’ve asked some questions of my own. I’ve seen no one answer them at all. It’s almost as if Tomlin is a zombie coach that just happens to have a winning record. Also happened to have the worst collapse of any coach since 1990.Stop throwing facts into this discussion...
irish eyes
Footballguy
So if the Steelers go 8-8 or 9-7 next year and miss the playoffs again (which is probably where they will be), will everyone keep saying "look another season without a sub 500 record, you cant fire him". That seems to be the standard.
Steeler
Footballguy
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