Godsbrother
Footballguy
I'm not sure, it depends on the circumstances. When Bill Cowher went 7-9, 6-10 and 9-7 missing the playoffs for three consecutive years should he have been fired?
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
HC Mike Tomlin, PIT (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter GROOT
- Start date
MAC_32
Footballguy
If this question were asked on this day 12 years ago I can't imagine you would have had many emphatic responses saying Mike Tomlin. A lot of coaching success stories now were not household names when they were hired. It's the nature of the beast. The media clamors for their guys and the public then only is really aware of them. But they don't know much about them beyond what their media buddies say and where they coached before - if they played then that too.
So who would you replace him with? I dunno. Feel similarly about other coaching vacancies too. We don't have enough info on any of these guys to say. But I feel very comfortable saying there are strong candidates available. It's on each team to identify and hire them.
Steeler
Footballguy
The whole point of asking this question is that the Steelers don't (and won't) have a coaching vacancy in 2019.
@AhrnCityPahnder said it best when he said you either trust the front office or you don't. If you don't trust the Steelers FO that's fine but bring something to the table other than #####ing and whining. Maybe I should just stay away from this thread
MAC_32
Footballguy
I know I quoted you but that comment wasn't as much directed towards you as it was your comment instigated something I've been thinking since this thread got hot again a few days ago. And not just related to Tomlin, but all current (and future) openings.The whole point of asking this question is that the Steelers don't (and won't) have a coaching vacancy in 2019.
@AhrnCityPahnder said it best when he said you either trust the front office or you don't. If you don't trust the Steelers FO that's fine but bring something to the table other than #####ing and whining. Maybe I should just stay away from this thread
voiceofunreason
Footballguy
Godsbrother
Footballguy
The same QB that went 13-3 two seasons later. Maybe Cowher's problems weren't just the QB. It's almost like NFL teams have 50+ players on their roster.
voiceofunreason
Footballguy
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Kordell Stewart. The same guy that went 11-5 before Cowher's 3-season skid and 13-3 the year after. Stewart was not a great QB by any means but the 1998, 1999 and 2000 Steelers had significant other problems. Many fans felt that Cowher was too much of a player's coach, was horrible at clock management, lost too many games to inferior opponents and was consistently being out-coached in big games. Sound familiar?
voiceofunreason
Footballguy
But he had some good seasons with terrible QBs and then started having great seasons when Roethlisberger came along. What's Tomlins excuse, are they going to fire the coordinators again and blame them?
Godsbrother
Footballguy
He sure did. Then again in 2006 he went 8-8 with the defending SB champs so not so great there.
Anyway my point was not really to compare Cowher to Tomlin other than to say the Rooney's did not give up on Cowher after missing the playoffs three consecutive years. They are not going to do so with Tomlin. We'll just have to wait and see if it turns out to be the correct decision like it was with Cowher
Casting Couch
Footballguy
AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
The home loss to San Diego Chargers (~1994 AFCC) is the single biggest "WTF just happened" moment in my cache of bad Steelers memories.
Plenty of good ones though to tip the scales in the other direction!
That one was brutal.
But I console myself with the likely reality that the 49ers team that year (Young, Rice, Norton Jr, Deion, etc) would have beat the brakes off of any team the AFC took the the SB that year.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
oops
Last edited by a moderator:
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Posts like this drive me crazy. How many of those coaches spent their entire coaching careers with a HOF QB leading their team?
If you're the head coach of a team that won the Super Bowl two years before you got there (they were 8-8 the year before only because that was the year Ben had his motorcycle accident among other things), and you spend your entire career coaching a team with high end talent including a HOF QB in a division that's basically two teams deep at most almost every year, you SHOULD have a great winning percentage and that kind of track record. The biggest reason coaches fail is the absence of a reliable QB, and he's never had to worry about that, much less develop one.
People can justify him however they want. The Steelers have been to one AFCC since 2010 despite the consistent playoff appearances and regular season wins. The team has had plenty of issues and plenty of talent, and it can't be overstated the level of impact losing Shazier has had on the defense recently, but struggling to take advantage of their talent hasn't just been a recent thing.
I think Tomlin is the coaching equivalent to a RB who'll get everything that's blocked for him, but can't make extra yards on his own. With talent, he can lead a team to some success unless his lack of coaching ability gets in the way, which it does more often than I wish. He's just not the type of coach who's going to take inferior talent and make it better, and the culture he's allowed to develop doesn't make it any easier. Is that better than plenty of coaches out there? Sure, but that speaks more to the other coaches than it does Tomlin.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Everyone is entitled to their opinions but having a HOF QB does not guarantee anything. And even though we say that Ben is a sure-thing HoF player, he has been a bit of a diva and head case too. Also throughout his career Ben has been considered a very good QB but has always been ranked behind Brady, Peyton Manning, Rodgers, and Brees and year after year ranked behind the QB du jour like Russell Wilson, Cam Newton, etc. Yet aside from Brady how many Super Bowls did these guys win?
There is a hell of a lot more to coaching than just having a great QB and it isn't easy to keep a team competitive year after year. This season was considered a complete disaster yet had the team's kicker not had a total meltdown and made one of his many missed FGs or the offense not coughed up the ball TWICE late in the Saints game the team would have had double digit wins again. And let's not forget the 5 turnovers by the HoF QB in the opener that cost them a win against the Tyrod Taylor led Browns.
I know that most Steelers fans think that Tomlin is a dunce and that having Ben Roethlisberger is a free pass to the playoffs but you are way over simplifying it. Being the head coach of an NFL team is difficult and multifaceted. The Steelers organization knows what goes into the head coaching job and think Tomlin has done a good enough job to stand by him.
Tomlin isn't blameless and needs to get better assistant coaches. If they suck next season then go ahead and fire him but he deserves a chance to right the ship.
That's what I think anyway...
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
I’m with you here. I’ve been critical of Tomlin but I actually think he’s low on the list of people to blame for this season. Yeah he’s had his share of blunders but the team still should have made the playoffs. My issue is that I don’t see him as a good gameday coach and I feel like you need someone like that to string off 3 or 4 wins in a row against tough competition (which is what it takes to win a Super Bowl). If the goal is to just be competitive every year, Tomlin is great. If the goal is to win a Super Bowl, I’m not sure. And yes I know he won a Super Bowl but that was with one of the greatest defenses ever. I don’t think we can rely on that happening again in our lifetimes.
But I really hope I’m wrong. He’s going to have at least a couple more years to prove it.
Last edited by a moderator:
Dizzy
Footballguy
I fully agree with this. Seems to be a lot of feeling in this thread that Big Ben is in a GOAT conversation... and he is NOT. The Steelers "Killer Bees" all have ("had") issues outside the game that seem to have crept into the locker room to the point where it spills out into the public eye. Is HC responsible for these egomaniacs that all want to be "the man" yet none step forward to be a leader?
And for those that thing "big" Ben should have 6-7 Super Bowls... Google "Dan Marino"... HOF QB + HOF Coaches = ???
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Maybe I'm wrong about him and he's the glue that's kept everything together. I just don't see it. I'd actually like to see the pre-season expectations for the Steelers W/L record and then how the team did for the past decade. I don't know where to find that info though.
I never said that having a HOF QB is a guarantee of anything, especially winning Super Bowls. While having Ben doesn't mean they should have automatically won a bunch of Super Bowls, that and the rest of the talent on the team and the division they've played in HAS almost guaranteed enough wins every year that the expectation was at least 8 wins, if not more.
Even if Ben hasn't been on the truly elite level, he's been a safety net big enough that Tomin has never had to deal with the biggest problem a coach can face - poor QB play. Even at his worst and now in his late 30's, he's still one of the better ones out there and has been surrounded by tons of talent at the skill positions and on the line.
I don't think Tomlin is a terrible coach, but I think his reputation is far bigger than his talent. I think he's a very, very average coach with a few glaring weaknesses on gamedays that cost the Steelers every season, and a talented team can win enough during the regular season with a coach like that. But, he won a Super Bowl with a wild card team that got hot in the playoffs shortly after taking over a great team with a great defense, and despite all the regular season wins, they've been to one AFCC in the past 8 years. At some point, the postseason results start mattering too, not just a Super Bowl from a decade ago. And please, no more posting about how he took over an 8-8 team... everyone knows why that team was 8-8 that year after winning the Super Bowl the year before.
As I've said before, while it's not a guarantee that someone else would do or would have done better, I don't think he's a coach who'd be very difficult to replace.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Fair enough but he has been to the Super Bowl twice and another the AFC Championship game so he has done it in the past. I realize he was just lucky those three times and deserves none of the credit but still...
Weren't they the No. 2 seed that year?
BTW, am I right that under Tomlin, the Steelers have never been or defeated a No. 1 seed in the playoffs? Their two SB appearances came in years where they were 2 seeds and the 1s got knocked off in the divisional round. They also lost to 1 seeds Denver (2015) and NE (2016).
Not claiming that proves anything definitive about Tomlin. But it is interesting.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Oops, yeah, my mistake... that was Cowher's team that won the SB as a Wild Card. Brain fart.That sounds right, but I can't verify without looking it up.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Yup exactly what I said. He will keep the team competitive every year but will he ever again string together 3-4 wins in a row in the playoffs? Time will tell. With that said, the list of coaches who can do that is small.Godsbrother said:Fair enough but he has been to the Super Bowl twice and another the AFC Championship game so he has done it in the past. I realize he was just lucky those three times and deserves none of the credit but still...
Was thinking about something: I'm a Lions fan; they fired Caldwell last year because he averaged 9 wins a year but couldn't get the team to the next level. They might make the playoffs (did in 2/4 seasons) but they couldn't win a playoff game or have any real success against the good teams. I defended him for awhile but by the end I agreed he had hit his way-too-low ceiling they needed to move on.
Tomlin is basically a rich man's Caldwell. He's got a higher ceiling; Steelers have averaged 10.4 wins a year in his 12 years there and made the playoffs in 8 of them. They have consistently been one of the AFC's better teams, but with the possible exception of the Super Bowl season, they've never clearly been the best (Tennessee was the 1 seed that year and lost in the Divisionals; I think Pittsburgh may well have defeated them anyway).
Ultimately, I think this boils down to an organizational philosophy that says that's OK; just keep the team competitive every year and opportunities will present themselves; when they do, hopefully you can capitalize on them and win championships. They will never be a Pats-level dynasty, but they also won't bottom out the way, say, Green Bay has the last couple seasons (although if Tomlin can't control all the egos in the locker room, who knows?)
At the same time, I understand why that approach might be frustrating to Steeler fans. Your ceiling is always capped, and given there is a Pats-level dynasty in place, that's going to limit your opportunities.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
I think this is a fair assessment of the situation. As a long time season ticket holder I would rather be competitive every season and have a chance at the end than roll the dice on an unknown and risk disaster. That said if the team continues the backslide and the team isn't competitive then Tomlin has to go...
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
The expectations in Pittsburgh (at least from a fanbase perspective) are higher than they are in Detroit. Tomlin had to know that when he accepted the job. Thankfully for him, Steelers management is a lot more patient than the fanbase. And they don’t make decisions based on the fans. Let’s see what happens next year. If AB comes back, they still are very much in the running for a Super Bowlzftcg said:
Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
Dont forget the Bettis fumble where Ben made a miracle tackle to save the super bowl trip....
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
I'm having a very hard time comprehending how it's even possible for someone to lose 9 straight challenges (especially in a day and age where refs appear to miss some obvious calls)zftcg said:
bucksoh
Footballguy
Dan Marino never even came close to have the talent that Tomlin has had. Tomlins worst year is still more talent than Marino had, you might wanna google his teams.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Marino had some pretty good receivers but it was a different era too. Don Shula didn't have to deal with social media nor the revolving door of free agency, salary cap, etc. for most of Marino's career.bucksoh said:
I am just wondering why the Saints fans aren't clamoring for Sean Payton's head. Here is a guy that has only won the SB once, has a losing playoff record, five non-winning seasons all with Hall of Famer QB Drew Brees.
Dizzy
Footballguy
It's a fine line... if the Saints get that call for PI/helmet-to-helmet/other and the Saints advance... does Payton go from doghouse to penthouse based solely on something he has zero control over?
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Saying they have lower standards doesn't sound nice, so I will just say that Saints fans were not used to winning before Payton and Brees arrived. And yesterday's loss will be blamed on the officials, removing any culpability from Payton, of which he has plenty, so he isn't going anywhere. Plus, the failures in NO under Payton's watch have almost always been with the defense, which is not Payton's side of the ball, while the Steelers problem for years now has been defense, Tomlin's side of the ball, so there is that as well.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Dizzy said:
You can make the same "if this woulda happened" and "officials made a bad call" on Tomlin's big losses as well. I also don't buy the "not his side of the ball" argument -- a HC is responsible for the whole team.Ghost Rider said:
Bottom line is Payton has had a better QB than but has less to show from it yet Tomlin is in the hot seat but Payton isn't.
Dizzy
Footballguy
WHOA! Now this is news. I've been out of town for a couple days and missed it... the Steelers are considering replacing Tomlin? You have a link?
Some rando on the Internet said it. What more proof do you need?
Reminds me of the old Stephen Colbert bit where he said to a politician, "I'm alleging that your opponent does cocaine. Now that the rumor is 'out there', would you care to comment on it?"
Godsbrother
Footballguy
I was referring to the fans, not the Steelers front office. We really don't know how much of a leash Tomlin has with Mr. Rooney.
Dizzy
Footballguy
Oh, those clowns.
That would be “some” fans by the way, not all. I’m a Steelers fan, but also cursed with common sense, so I want Tomlin right where he’s at.
Every year there are 31 teams with a percentage of their fan base that want the coach and/or GM fired. That’s just noise from a bunch of know-nothings. To me the “hot seat” is leaked/rumored out of a front office if not flat out delivered in an ultimatum.
Steelers fans always were an annoying bunch in general… lofty expectations and some kind of “we do things right” uppity smell. This Patriots dynasty has all those people out on the ledge now… like the Steelers are one chess move away from matching/exceeding the combination of BB/TB12/McDaniels. Truth is they're 3 moves away... and those guys aren't available.
bucksoh
Footballguy
No such thing as having common sense and wanting Tomlin as the HC. That shipped sailed years ago. But keep living in denial.Oh, those clowns.
That would be “some” fans by the way, not all. I’m a Steelers fan, but also cursed with common sense, so I want Tomlin right where he’s at.
Every year there are 31 teams with a percentage of their fan base that want the coach and/or GM fired. That’s just noise from a bunch of know-nothings. To me the “hot seat” is leaked/rumored out of a front office if not flat out delivered in an ultimatum.
Steelers fans always were an annoying bunch in general… lofty expectations and some kind of “we do things right” uppity smell. This Patriots dynasty has all those people out on the ledge now… like the Steelers are one chess move away from matching/exceeding the combination of BB/TB12/McDaniels. Truth is they're 3 moves away... and those guys aren't available.
His combo of intellect/street smarts, and the way he doesn't play games, not afraid to tell it like it really is, very cool.
I doubt any other coach could have done better with the hand he was dealt, he is a keeper. Love having him coaching my Niners.
If the Steelers were to let this dynamic personality walk they would regret it.
Why Mike Tomlin should be a serious contender for Coach of the Yea
Mike Tomlin’s great demonstration of coaching deserves to be commended.
By Nick Farabaugh@FarabaughFB Nov 22, 2018, 10:07
I doubt any other coach could have done better with the hand he was dealt, he is a keeper. Love having him coaching my Niners.
If the Steelers were to let this dynamic personality walk they would regret it.
Why Mike Tomlin should be a serious contender for Coach of the Yea
Mike Tomlin’s great demonstration of coaching deserves to be commended.
By Nick Farabaugh@FarabaughFB Nov 22, 2018, 10:07
Last edited by a moderator:
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
He should be coach of the year now? YeeshZenoRazon said:
irish eyes
Footballguy
This is either a sarcastic post or you have zero clue what you're talking about. Your entire post is ridiculous, but judging from some other threads & what other people have said about your posts I'm not surprised.ZenoRazon said:
Tomlin has averaged 10 wins a year while the Steelers HC in his 12 seasons. How many HC in NFL history can say that?
Nothing ridiculous at all about what I said, not even close. Tomlin is a great coach, one of the very best in the biz and his record proves this.
When it comes to myself, everything I say is backed with a lot of experience.
This is about the best current NFL HC
4) Mike Tomlin, Pittsburgh Steelers
The Steelers are always in contention. And Tomlin has shepherded Pittsburgh to two Super Bowl appearances -- and a total of eight postseasons -- in 11 years on the job. The key to Tomlin's success is not X's-and-O's handiwork -- it's getting his players to play for him. A testament to that ability is how his team has stayed viable even when key parts (like Ben Roethlisberger and Le'Veon Bell) haven't been available.
No he didnt forget how to coach all of a sudden
Last edited by a moderator:
irish eyes
Footballguy
Oh ok, intellect..hes proven he has none with his challenges...street smarts, not sure what the he@@ that has to do with football...not afraid to tell it like it is...um he lied about the Ben situation during raider game & lied about Antonio situation for Bengal game...Coach of the year is the biggest laugher of them all..they lost to Oakland and Denver, 2 horrible teams that cost them the playoffs. Anything else you would like refuted?
How about focusing on how he has been as successful as he's been given the mess that is Pitt, that takes some serious intellect. He knows how to relate to his young players he can talk jive and knows what buttons to push, street smarts.
Lying is always part of knowing what needs to be said, the truth not always the best option.
Little girl big tears in her eyes.....is Joey in doggie Heaven now?
You....yes dear he is.
The truth at that moment....nay~!~~
Don't ignore the body of work, ok? And think how any other coach would have handled "this" Steeler team. The guy is great a fantastic coach and it's totally obvious.
How many times has he won his division?
4) Mike Tomlin, Pittsburgh Steelers
The Steelers are always in contention. And Tomlin has shepherded Pittsburgh to two Super Bowl appearances -- and a total of eight postseasons -- in 11 years on the job. The key to Tomlin's success is not X's-and-O's handiwork -- it's getting his players to play for him. A testament to that ability is how his team has stayed viable even when key parts (like Ben Roethlisberger and Le'Veon Bell) haven't been available.
Last edited by a moderator:
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Exactly what “mess” was he given? When he started coaching the Steelers, he was given the best defense in the league and an elite QB.
Last edited by a moderator:
irish eyes
Footballguy
Ok, shame on me. I have fallen for Zeno's shtick. Now go dirty up a different thread and stay out of this one.
Steeler
Footballguy
I'm not calling for Tomlin's head and even I think he is no where near a candidate for coach of the year... you have to be fishing.
Similar threads
- Poll
- Poll
