High School sports- pay to play? (1 Viewer)

[jobarules]

My son plays baseball and will be a Freshman in September trying out for JV team for local public HS. HS does not have a freshman team. Apparently, the coach of the varsity team picks all the kids from the same travel organization he coaches for. And he also implies that if kids join that organization they will make the team (without actually saying it). I know all this because I have several coaching friends who's kids tried out this past year and didnt make it even though worse kids made it to the team and my friend's kids are more talented. However, my friends kids (and my son) play for a different travel organization. I know some of the kids who made it because I have coached them in the past and they are not good.

Isnt this a conflict of interest? Is there anything that can be done? My son doesnt want to switch travel organizations so its sad to think he might not have a chance to make team. The one advantage he has over my friends' sons is my son pitches.

 

[Cjw_55106]

Sadly, this is where sports are. I always told my kid, if you want to be a player, you need to be in the top 5-6. After that, different factors start to show themselves. Sometimes thats helpful, sometimes it isnt.
Sorry I dont have anymore to add other than hope. My son was cut from his high school team in both 11th and 12 grade. He's spent the last four years pitching in college.

 

[Gally]

Sounds like the athletic director needs to be brought into this if the coach is being that overtly obvious of taking lesser kids just because they are in a particular travel organization.

 

[General Malaise]

Oldest trick in the book. HS coach offers 'private lessons' on the side for $$$. You'll never guess who makes the varsity teams? Happens across the country in almost all youth sports. It's not new and no parent has ever successfully done anything to stop this scam.

 

[kylechoffman]

My daughter plays club lax year round and probably made varsity freshman year (started all games on D) because the high school varsity coach is also the owner/ director of her club program. That was last year but this year she has started only half the games, didnt play at all in one game (got injured two days prior but was ready to go) and played only a half in the other two. All four defenders playing over her didnt start last year nor do they play for that club so while I thought the club nonsense had something to do with it last year, I dont anymore.

Sadly that stuff truly does impact high school and while I think it has something to do with the layer of trust the coach has in the club players, its complete BS if it is as described by some above.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

My son's lacrosse coach strongly encouraged his players to join his extremely overpriced club project over the summer. It was $2,000 and was mostly just full day scrimmages with a few tournaments. My son's summer commitments were such that he couldn't make over half the events, but the coach put the hard press on him - really aggressive. I spoke with the guy and said the kid's out of the country for 2 weeks and has 3 weeks summer camp where he's a counselor - all unavoidable conflicts. The guy said he would give us a discount based on this but when he emailed us it was like $200 off! I'm not going to report it or anything but it felt like a straight shake down. He's also insisting we all buy like $300 worth of stuff - not equipment as that's already paid for - but branded golf shirts for the boys to wear to school on game day, track suits, etc. He called it "mandatory" for the boys to all get the full package of gear. We see this stuff with every private club, but didn't expect his high school team to have quite that level of hard sell on this kind of stuff. I'm sure he gets some form of kickback for it.

 

[Chaz McNulty]

Sadly, this is where sports are. I always told my kid, if you want to be a player, you need to be in the top 5-6. After that, different factors start to show themselves. Sometimes thats helpful, sometimes it isnt.
Sorry I dont have anymore to add other than hope. My son was cut from his high school team in both 11th and 12 grade. He's spent the last four years pitching in college.

This is exactly what happens and why it is so hard to prove. The studs will always make the team no matter what club team they play for. All the depth players come from the coaches own club team and the skill level is close enough for the coach to claim it was based on merit.

 

[Gally]

He called it "mandatory" for the boys to all get the full package of gear. We see this stuff with every private club, but didn't expect his high school team to have quite that level of hard sell on this kind of stuff. I'm sure he gets some form of kickback for it.

This is a typical fund raising situation for most high school sports. Back in the day coaches required kids to wear a suit/tie to school on gamedays. That gave way to polo shirts with team logo and now it is the next step. I don't see any issue with this for the most part as typically the prices for the gear are market price and the program usually gets money for equipment, etc for the program. Now if that goes direct into the coach's pocket then I would have an issue but having been involved as a high school coach for 15 years it takes a lot of money to run a good program with regards to equipment, field prep, etc (talking from a baseball perspective).

 

[top dog]

It's a shame things have gotten to this point in sports. My son was a wrestler in high school. One of the top teams in the state. My son was never a stud on the team. Was varsity 10 - 12 grade but never made it out of districts. His coach runs a private club where each "camp" runs hundreds of dollars. Had various ones all year from 5 years old - high school age depending on what camp. Kids come from all over the state and even from other states to attend his camps. The one cool thing he did was for any kid that was enrolled as a student in our district could attend any of these camps at no charge. We were pretty broke back in the day and my son would never have been able to attend those camps if I had to pay for them. Those camps helped him become a much better wrestling and exposed him to the head coach as a person. When he was a freshman and was JV he had an issue in school where he was in danger of becoming ineligible due to grades and behavior. The head coach met with us and the teacher that was on the verge of failing him and convinced her to give him a 2nd chance. He was running with the wrong kids and without wrestling to center him, he was going to go down the wrong path. Like I said, my son was NOT one of the pillars of the program. Was never going to win a state title for the coach but he went to bat for him regardless because he believed in him. He also took my son aside and preached to him about the path he was on, the hard work he needed to do and what that could do for him. My son got his head on straight and managed to prevent himself from being ineligible. Also used "Wrestling Practice" as an excuse to not hang with the kids he was. Went to extra practices at the school, helped with the youth program, basically did everything he could to immerse himself in the program and coaches.

Fast forward a few years. My son didn't make it to state but ended up wrestling for a year at a Division 1 school in college. He joined the Army National Guard and later became a police officer. 100% to this day has major respect and gratitude for that coach that not only stood up for him, but resonated enough in his head to stop doing dumb crap, put his head down and become the person he could become.

To this day my son's wrestling coach is someone I call a friend. We text back and forth now and then and I've told him more than once how much I attribute him helping my son go from being on a short path to big trouble to becoming someone his kids can look up to and be proud of. My son also loves him as a mentor. Still occasionally shows up at a high school wrestling practice to see the coaches and the program. Not really helpful for your situation. It just pisses me off when these guys are about the $$ and not the kids. They have no idea how many kids they COULD impact if they cared. Should NOT be a stupid money grab.

 

[Gally]

To this day my son's wrestling coach is someone I call a friend. We text back and forth now and then and I've told him more than once how much I attribute him helping my son go from being on a short path to big trouble to becoming someone his kids can look up to and be proud of. My son also loves him as a mentor. Still occasionally shows up at a high school wrestling practice to see the coaches and the program. Not really helpful for your situation. It just pisses me off when these guys are about the $$ and not the kids. They have no idea how many kids they COULD impact if they cared. Should NOT be a stupid money grab.

There are still some of these types of coaches around but they are few and far between. I also think they are being run off because of parents that are all about scholarships/winning/selfish/etc pushing them out by complaining to the school about not enough wins etc. Having a coach that cares more about the kids and holding them accountable to make them better people isn't what many parents want these days. Being told your kid isn't doing the right things doesn't fly.

It really is sad.

 

[jobarules]

Thanks everyone. My son is by no means a superstar but loves playing baseball and is definitely good enough to make most HS JV teams. He's fast*, great arm, good fielder, puts ball in play, not much power. Hes one of the best players on his current team. Would be frustrating to not make it based on what travel team he plays for. I guess we will see what happens next year.

*Last fall he stole 7 bases in one game. One inning he walked, stole 2nd, 3rd, and home.

 

[acarey50]

My son's lacrosse coach strongly encouraged his players to join his extremely overpriced club project over the summer. It was $2,000 and was mostly just full day scrimmages with a few tournaments. My son's summer commitments were such that he couldn't make over half the events, but the coach put the hard press on him - really aggressive. I spoke with the guy and said the kid's out of the country for 2 weeks and has 3 weeks summer camp where he's a counselor - all unavoidable conflicts. The guy said he would give us a discount based on this but when he emailed us it was like $200 off! I'm not going to report it or anything but it felt like a straight shake down. He's also insisting we all buy like $300 worth of stuff - not equipment as that's already paid for - but branded golf shirts for the boys to wear to school on game day, track suits, etc. He called it "mandatory" for the boys to all get the full package of gear. We see this stuff with every private club, but didn't expect his high school team to have quite that level of hard sell on this kind of stuff. I'm sure he gets some form of kickback for it.

For our high school (and as far as I know all of our other local public schools), while there are fees as sports are woefully underfunded, they are considered donations and can not be made mandatory, as this could be considered discriminatory for low income families. So we have suggested contributions and plenty of opportunities to offset that by getting local sponsorships and doing fundraising activities. However, anything that is considered "mandatory", such as the golf shirts and warmups/track suits like you mentioned, the program would have to cover the cost of for any kid that could not/did not pay. For our basketball team, that has resulted in us only making the pregame shooting shirts mandatory, as these run about $40 - out of a program with about 70 players, we may need to eat the cost on 6-8 of these - very low income families, kids in group homes/foster care, etc. But, it also means that we intentionally don't do full warmup suits for the kids, don't make team backpacks mandatory, etc., as this could quickly eat up a large portion of the budget we do have.

Our school is pretty split when it comes to economics, with a decent sized portion coming from a much more affluent area where throwing down an extra $400-500 for "gear" is no big deal then many others where both parents are working a ton of hours to cover rent/food and coming up with the $40 for a shooting shirt is a stretch.

As for the only taking kids playing for a certain club, long term not a good idea as you miss out on a lot of good kids, but a lot of these coaches do it just to be able to make a living. The coaching stipend for a public high school coach is almost nothing, so especially when a school brings in a non-teacher as a coach, they are usually running or coaching in some form of club team to be able to get by.

 

[Gally]

As for the only taking kids playing for a certain club, long term not a good idea as you miss out on a lot of good kids, but a lot of these coaches do it just to be able to make a living. The coaching stipend for a public high school coach is almost nothing, so especially when a school brings in a non-teacher as a coach, they are usually running or coaching in some form of club team to be able to get by.

Being a high school coach shouldn't be about making a living or making money. I coached for 15 years and probably made about $0.10 per hour of time spent. I did it because I liked the sport and the kids and wanted to do it. At this level it should be about the kids and getting them to be well rounded humans that can contribute to society positively. Unfortunately, that isn't the case anymore. I stopped coached HS when my kid started playing T-ball. I stopped coaching altogether when he got to HS. In his 7th/8th grade ages I became really frustrated with the majority of kids attitudes and the parents inputs based on those attitudes. It was really frustrating and took all the fun out of doing this.

On the bright side, I am really enjoying being a fan and just watching the games now.

 

[Jayrod]

Being a high school coach shouldn't be about making a living or making money. I coached for 15 years and probably made about $0.10 per hour of time spent. I did it because I liked the sport and the kids and wanted to do it. At this level it should be about the kids and getting them to be well rounded humans that can contribute to society positively. Unfortunately, that isn't the case anymore. I stopped coached HS when my kid started playing T-ball. I stopped coaching altogether when he got to HS. In his 7th/8th grade ages I became really frustrated with the majority of kids attitudes and the parents inputs based on those attitudes. It was really frustrating and took all the fun out of doing this.

On the bright side, I am really enjoying being a fan and just watching the games now.

Except...it's usually what they are doing for a living and most don't stop once they have kids. Coaches need money to feed and care for their families as well, plus just scraping by is a crappy way to live. A good coach is worth some money to do private lessons.

That said, pushing the coach's club kids in front of others isn't a good practice. I have a friend who is dead certain it happened to his daughter with volleyball. She left the local club that was managed by the HS JV coach and her Freshman year lost her starting spot. He's not one to puff up his kids and was pretty certain she was held back simply over moving clubs. The one thing rare about volleyball is club teams are more important and more valuable for college notoriety than HS teams. Winning a state championship is nice, but playing well at nationals is a bigger deal from what I've seen/heard. If moving clubs in volleyball makes sense for the players long-term goals, pissing off the HS coaching staff shouldn't really matter. Most sports are not that way. With basketball especially as club ball just doesn't replicate the college competitive environment as well as HS school ball does. Club basketball is a better mirror to the NBA than college basketball.

 

[Gally]

Except...it's usually what they are doing for a living and most don't stop once they have kids. Coaches need money to feed and care for their families as well, plus just scraping by is a crappy way to live. A good coach is worth some money to do private lessons.

I get the "making a living" desire for coaching but HS sports is not the avenue to do that. If you want that to be your living then you better be a teacher as that is the easiest way to make that your living. If you are trying to coach only at the high school level with no other job then you are in the wrong business.

When I coached at the HS level it was not my job. It was a hobby. I had an engineering job that allowed me the flexibility to have my work schedule around coaching. I was extremely lucky to have that opportunity/availability. Those that want coaching to be their job either need to be teachers or work to get an opportunity above HS. It's sad that this is the case but it is the reality. Coaches that try and get paid for lessons, travel, etc and then do HS usually aren't doing it for actual player development and I have found have a very different mentality when it comes to coaching. Much more selfish and not so much about developing players/people. They shouldn't be in charge of a HS program and the AD should recognize that. Unfortunately, many times there isn't much of a choice as parents/schools/pay drive good coaches away and push those that stay to be selfish.

It's a compounding problem that is reflective to the way our society is moving. It's really sad to me.

 

[Jayrod]

Except...it's usually what they are doing for a living and most don't stop once they have kids. Coaches need money to feed and care for their families as well, plus just scraping by is a crappy way to live. A good coach is worth some money to do private lessons.

I get the "making a living" desire for coaching but HS sports is not the avenue to do that. If you want that to be your living then you better be a teacher as that is the easiest way to make that your living. If you are trying to coach only at the high school level with no other job then you are in the wrong business.

When I coached at the HS level it was not my job. It was a hobby. I had an engineering job that allowed me the flexibility to have my work schedule around coaching. I was extremely lucky to have that opportunity/availability. Those that want coaching to be their job either need to be teachers or work to get an opportunity above HS. It's sad that this is the case but it is the reality. Coaches that try and get paid for lessons, travel, etc and then do HS usually aren't doing it for actual player development and I have found have a very different mentality when it comes to coaching. Much more selfish and not so much about developing players/people. They shouldn't be in charge of a HS program and the AD should recognize that. Unfortunately, many times there isn't much of a choice as parents/schools/pay drive good coaches away and push those that stay to be selfish.

It's a compounding problem that is reflective to the way our society is moving. It's really sad to me.

This may be a regional thing then.

Around here in Missouri, their primary job is teaching 99% of the time, but that is on a fixed pay scale. The take home pay for teachers is usually equivalent to a lower-middle class income (Missouri is one of the worst states in the country for teacher pay). Now their retirement is tremendous and benefits usually good, but it is not a good living in and of itself. Coaching stipends help, but unless you get into administration an outside gig is the best bet for getting anywhere financially. For many coaches, it is their primary skillset, so that is what they do on the side as well.

There are good and bad people in every field. Coaches that make a living from coaching HS sports and coach teams outside of their school team are common. Some are good and some are bad, but I wouldn't say its worse than any other field.

 

[Ilov80s]

This is exactly what happens and why it is so hard to prove. The studs will always make the team no matter what club team they play for. All the depth players come from the coaches own club team and the skill level is close enough for the coach to claim it was based on merit.

So hard to prove one decent HS player is better than another. Even if you could, the coach could always make a reasonable spin:

Kid B is better but …

they are a defender and we needed a scorer

they only have experience at position X and the other kid can play X and Y

kid A is faster and we feel we really need more speed on the team

kid A is bigger and we felt the team needs some extra physicality

kid A has a better grasp of the offense so he’s more trustworthy

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Except...it's usually what they are doing for a living and most don't stop once they have kids. Coaches need money to feed and care for their families as well, plus just scraping by is a crappy way to live. A good coach is worth some money to do private lessons.

Way back when I was in HS, all of the athletic coaches were all also teachers at the school. If this still not the case?

 

[acarey50]

Except...it's usually what they are doing for a living and most don't stop once they have kids. Coaches need money to feed and care for their families as well, plus just scraping by is a crappy way to live. A good coach is worth some money to do private lessons.

Way back when I was in HS, all of the athletic coaches were all also teachers at the school. If this still not the case?

It's a mix, and a lot depends on if the school has a teaching position available when trying to hire a coach, and if that teaching position not only matches the subject that the coach is qualified to teach, but also if the district can match the pay the coach already receives to teach in their current district. The stipend to coach is a pittance, so if you are hiring from outside, then they will either have a full time job outside of the school, which creates it's own issues with scheduling, etc., or they are a professional coach an either coach at college, club or do private trainings.

As with anything, some are good, some are bad. Some push people to their club teams, some do not. I have seen both, heard stories of both, and can pretty much say it may be there, but it is not nearly as prevalent and parents will say - at least here in Southern California, high school coaches are replaced if they are not winning, so if they are not bringing in and keeping the best talent, they will be out of a job, so they generally won't care where you play club. Obviously there are exceptions.

 

[Todem]

As for the only taking kids playing for a certain club, long term not a good idea as you miss out on a lot of good kids, but a lot of these coaches do it just to be able to make a living. The coaching stipend for a public high school coach is almost nothing, so especially when a school brings in a non-teacher as a coach, they are usually running or coaching in some form of club team to be able to get by.

Being a high school coach shouldn't be about making a living or making money. I coached for 15 years and probably made about $0.10 per hour of time spent. I did it because I liked the sport and the kids and wanted to do it. At this level it should be about the kids and getting them to be well rounded humans that can contribute to society positively. Unfortunately, that isn't the case anymore. I stopped coached HS when my kid started playing T-ball. I stopped coaching altogether when he got to HS. In his 7th/8th grade ages I became really frustrated with the majority of kids attitudes and the parents inputs based on those attitudes. It was really frustrating and took all the fun out of doing this.

On the bright side, I am really enjoying being a fan and just watching the games now.

I stopped coaching once my son became a junior at his high school and focused on his college recruitment.

Competitive High School sports are in a very sad state and most of it has to do with the parents and a lot of knuckle head coaches.

 

[The Commish]

I wouldnt want my kid anywhere near that coach

 

[jobarules]

I wouldnt want my kid anywhere near that coach

So then don't tryout for his HS baseball team?

 

[msudaisy26]

Except...it's usually what they are doing for a living and most don't stop once they have kids. Coaches need money to feed and care for their families as well, plus just scraping by is a crappy way to live. A good coach is worth some money to do private lessons.

Way back when I was in HS, all of the athletic coaches were all also teachers at the school. If this still not the case?

It just depends. There are certain sports that no one wants to coach, so they look outside of the school, there are certain schools that are very good at certain sports and want to stay that way so they hire professionals instead of teachers and there are even teachers that only want to coach to make sure their kids make the team and as soon as their kids graduate they quit and leave a void.

 

[Jayrod]

Except...it's usually what they are doing for a living and most don't stop once they have kids. Coaches need money to feed and care for their families as well, plus just scraping by is a crappy way to live. A good coach is worth some money to do private lessons.

Way back when I was in HS, all of the athletic coaches were all also teachers at the school. If this still not the case?

No, it is the case here...but teacher pay isn't much around here either. Teacher salary plus coaching stipend is between $50-70k for the Varsity coaches depending on their years, education level and the size of the school. Take out taxes, plus the huge chunk for state retirement, and that isn't much money left to live off of.

 

[The Commish]

I wouldnt want my kid anywhere near that coach

So then don't tryout for his HS baseball team?

I wouldn't have my kid trying out based on what you've outlined here. It doesn't sound like he's providing any sort of instruction that your son isn't get elsewhere. At this age it's about learning/development. I'd be sort of shocked if you told me this guy was winning state championships on a consistent basis. That experience would really be the only reason I'd want my kid to MAYBE play on his team.

 

[SWC]

Most sports are not that way. With basketball especially as club ball just doesn't replicate the college competitive environment as well as HS school ball does. Club basketball is a better mirror to the NBA than college basketball.

i disagree for girls basketball at least high level exposure events and playing on an eybl blue star or select 40 team will generate a lot more exposure than high school ball in most instances especially in wisconsin where for some reason we refuse to implement shot clocks in high school ball and still call the girls game ticky tack versus the boys game or what you see in girls aau or college ball it is a real problem that we should be adressing at the wiaa level but it just keeps getting voted down take that to the bank brohans

 

[SWC]

also in the last 5 years i have seen such an uptick in horrible parents that it is making my head spin its gotten really really bad take that to the bank brochachos

 

[Gally]

No, it is the case here...but teacher pay isn't much around here either. Teacher salary plus coaching stipend is between $50-70k for the Varsity coaches depending on their years, education level and the size of the school. Take out taxes, plus the huge chunk for state retirement, and that isn't much money left to live off of.

and that breakdown is probably about $45-$65 for the teaching and $5k for the coaching stipend for most sports (and maybe less for the less popular sports - i.e. sports that don't bring in money).

 

[fantasy stud]

I'm in the middle school world of coaching, teaching , being an athletic director. It definitely has changed a lot in the last 10 years. We keep adding on more responsibilities/paper work on coaches without increasing their pay. The AAU world has changed the mindset of many players. The importance of practice attendance, winning, putting the team before the individual does not seem to be the priorities that they arrive with from travel ball. Then, we have less kids interested in participating in sports. For example, 10 years ago we would have about 60 boys and 35 girls trying out for basketball. This year it was 40 and 19.

 

[Chadstroma]

My son plays baseball and will be a Freshman in September trying out for JV team for local public HS. HS does not have a freshman team. Apparently, the coach of the varsity team picks all the kids from the same travel organization he coaches for. And he also implies that if kids join that organization they will make the team (without actually saying it). I know all this because I have several coaching friends who's kids tried out this past year and didnt make it even though worse kids made it to the team and my friend's kids are more talented. However, my friends kids (and my son) play for a different travel organization. I know some of the kids who made it because I have coached them in the past and they are not good.

Isnt this a conflict of interest? Is there anything that can be done? My son doesnt want to switch travel organizations so its sad to think he might not have a chance to make team. The one advantage he has over my friends' sons is my son pitches.

That is disgusting but generally I don't think there is much you can do. Coaches tend to be given wide range on the power they have to run their teams as they see fit.

It is stupid on the end for the coach though. Coaches make or break on reputation which largely is built by winning. If you are putting forth an inferior team than you otherwise could you are likely giving up some wins that you could get if you put together the best team. Even more so in baseball where 'chemistry' type of X factors are not really as important as other sports where a team that has played together for a while does have an advantage such as in basketball.

I would say there are times that coaching decisions may look like one thing but they are another. For example, picking an 'inferior' player over a 'better' player because the inferior player fills a role on the team that the better player can not. For example, adding a lefty over a better right handed picture just because you don't have many lefties otherwise. And there is also the things like attitude, work ethic, etc but none of that seems to be the case if the common thread is that they are all on the club team.

Is there any potential to change schools? Obviously that is a drastic solution but you don't know until you ask.