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Man, if this ain't the truth. I remember Tom Jackson calling Steve Smith of the Panthers a future Hall of Famer a few years back. As great as Smith has been at times, he wouldn't have a prayer of making it right now.'Just Win Baby said:
They're worth a bit of discussion, but no way should playoff stats be a vital component of determining whether a WR should be in the HoF or not.
PLAYER ATop 5 years in receptions: 112, 95, 95, 94, 81 = 477Top 5 years in receiving yards: 1329, 1167, 1163, 1043, 1004 = 5706PLAYER BTop 5 years in receptions: 94, 93, 85, 85, 84 = 441Top 5 years in receiving yards: 1207, 1174, 1164, 1129, 1110 = 5784PLAYER CTop 5 years in receptions: 103, 96, 95, 86, 80 = 460Top 5 years in receiving yards: 1303, 1168, 1128, 1087, 1073 = 5759PLAYER DTop 5 years in receptions: 113, 100, 89, 86, 85 = 473Top 5 years in receiving yards: 1602, 1343, 1222, 1180, 1144 = 6491A = Hines WardB = Keenan McCardellC = Derrick MasonD = Rod SmithWard's best year numbers are pretty much in line with other receivers that have at times been considered compilers.
Jimmy Smith:Top 5 years in receptions: 116, 112, 91, 83, 82 = 484Top 5 years in receiving yards: 1636, 1373, 1324, 1244, 1213 = 6,790
DD has data back to 2002; from 2002-2005, Hines Ward was #8 in the league in targets with 537. Holt happened to be #1 with 634, but Ward was ahead of guys like Joe Horn, TO, Rod Smith, Jimmy Smith, and Isaac Bruce. He had plenty of opportunities.
Hall of Fame selection committee.Hall of Fame selection committee.Hall of Fame selection committee.Hall of Fame selection committee.Hall of Fame selection committee.
I still think they should just poll all the voters (or as many who would participate) and come up with an early result. Even then, things could still change in the future when voters look at a ballot with a bunch of names on it and may not be inclined to vote for a player in that particular class.I have already said I think Ward eventually will make it in somehow. But as far as the thread goes, I don't see a high probability of him making it the first try.
They're just Steelers homers...Hall of Fame selection committee.Hall of Fame selection committee.Hall of Fame selection committee.Hall of Fame selection committee.Hall of Fame selection committee.
One problem with normalizing this data is that it ignores the fact that the skills of the players in question may have contributed to the disparity in opportunity being addressed.That is, Holt may have gotten more targets than Ward because Holt's talent led the Rams to pass more often than they would have otherwise, while Ward may have gotten fewer targets than Ward in part because he wasn't as talented a receiver and was a great blocking WR, thus encouraging the Steelers to run more than they might have otherwise.Most would agree that the Rams were clearly committed to passing a lot when Holt was drafted, while the Steelers were clearly more focused on winning with ball control and defense when Ward was drafted. But that could have led directly to the Rams drafting Holt, because he fit so well into their passing oriented attack, and the Steelers drafting Ward, because he fit their offense so well due to his all around skills. Again, this would be evidence that their individual skills ultimately contributed to putting them in the situation that led to more opportunity for Holt than Ward.Suppose the Steelers had drafted Randy Moss, and he played for them instead of the Vikings to start his career. Does anyone think they would not have had more pass attempts over those years? Would the Steelers not have taken full advantage of his obvious amazing talent?Bottom line, one of the reasons Ward didn't get more targets is because he didn't earn/warrant more; one reason Holt got more targets is because he did earn/warrant them. This is yet another reason to focus on what they did, rather than what they might have done if things were different.
Yeah, I am not sure he or Holt are HOFers - especially with Carter and Brown languishing away. Moss is delaying his induction with SF - but in the next few years we add Bruce, Holt, Ward, Owens and Harrison to the mix and who knows where AJ, Fitz, and CJ will be on the all time lists by then.
and they obv completely will deserve theirs. hines ward will be the most undeserving admission of the modern era. hes a lock though.
I agree. Of the current recently retired or soon to be retired, I think Moss is the only lock to make the HOF. I also think he has a real good shot as a 1st ballot as long as people overlook some character issues. Moss was clearly a WR that teams feared and schemed for and he still beat them badly.
I don't see how this article says anything different than what's in this thread. He's good, very good...might get in. Might have to wait. In the conversation. I don't see where the voters quoted say he's a lock or a first ballot candidate.I liked Ward as a player, but if someone asked me who was the best WR over the last 10-12 years I'm not sure he's in the top 4 or 5 of who comes to mind.
A statement like this bothers. While it could very well be true that Ward (at least last year) helped the running game churn out an extra yard per run due to his blocking, it's very possible (if not probable) that other receivers helped in a similar fashion by NOT blocking.If we look at someone like Randy Moss, his presence on the field in his prime mandated double or sometimes triple coverage. Drawing multiple defenders most likely resulted in two things: more running room (and thus a higher ypc) and more lanes for receivers to get open in (resulting in more catches for other players and more yards after the catch). How are those yards any less valuable than the extra yards Ward help eke out in blocking?That's another reason why all of this talk about hius value as a blocker gets a bit overblown. I don't remember teams saying that Ward was such a speed demon or a vertical threat that teams HAD to double team him at all costs. Because the Steelers running game was so effective, that often left defenses open to play action and left fewer bodies available in the secondary . . . which all helped Ward.I said it earlier . . . a receiver's job is to catch the football. Being very good at something else is a bonus, but his primary role was to catch the ball, not block. I'd vote for a guy that was an ELITE receiver.
Two things - if Denver and Jacksonsville rushed for more yards per game, then why don't we have to include Rod Smith and Jimmy Smith in the discussion for "greatest blocking WR"? Is it because they're not Steelers? Rod Smith also earned 2 Super Bowl titles.And, really? This guy is saying that the Steelers yard per rush average had anything to do with Ward this year? Maybe it had something to do with him only being on the field in passing situations this year, when every team's ypc average goes up because defenses are happy to allow a draw to gain 8 yards on third-and-12.
lol at appealing to the authority of sportswriters. the fact that sportswriters are so clueless is why ward will make it.
Not to mention that Rod Smith could have easily been a Super Bowl MVP as well (in SB33), but Elway was as deserving and got the sentimental nod for MVP.
Exactly, most sportswriters seem to do very little statistical research. I would say many people on this board do more research than most sportswriters.
Yea but he wasn't a Steeler. Hines Ward you understand is the only wide receiver in the history of the NFL to throw a block.
Who votes guys into the HoF? One guess.
How about the fact that during Ward's 14-year career no team ran the ball more than the Steelers, and by a large margin. Yet Ward still finished his career with top 10-20 stats in every major receiving category.
Hines Ward got plenty of targets, no matter how often the Steelers ran the ball.
On the bolded, both have been finalists multiple times. I'm pretty sure there has never been a WR who was at any time a finalist who did not ultimately get inducted through the normal process (i.e., not through the senior committee or whatever it is called). So I expect all of Reed, Brown, and Carter to eventually make it. I think Brown and Carter definitely deserve it, while Reed is borderline.So I suspect if Ward ever makes it to the finalist list, he will ultimately get in.
The real question, it seems, is whether Rod Smith is a first ballot Hall of Famer?Player........ Yrs...Rec...100Rec...Yds...1000Yd...TD...10TD...Rec/g...Yds/g...TD/g...SB Wins...Probowls
I have brought up Smith as a legit HOF candidate for years, but for some reason he gets summarily dismissed without much fanfare or discussion.
Funny that you admit that with these two players being pretty equal, and in the same breath you dismiss Ward.
I don't advocate inducting either of them, really, but when I have charted careers and accomplishments I have included Smith and people immediately dismiss him. Over the years, I have listed say 20 receivers and their credentials from the past 20 or so years. Obviously they are not all going to be HOFers. But Smith fits in with the other guys and does not seem out of place.I have combared Ward to Mason, too. Doesn't mean I am campaigning for Derrick Mason.
well done snipping the portion that addresses that. ward doesnt deserve the hall of fame. but he gets in bc lol sportswriters narrative building.
And Jimmy Smith put up similar numbers in everything but Super Bowls in 10 seasons.
not even just research. id say most hardcore fans actually watch and analyze far more games than a typical sportswriter, who only pays attention to his home team.
I loved Rod Smith as a player, and like Ward, not much was thought of him coming out of college, so kudos to him as well for having a great pro career regardless, but Smith is very similar to Ward in that he was really, really good, but not quite good enough to warrant HOF inclusion. One of my favorite plays from the early 00s (2000, I think) was seeing Rod Smith absolutely destroy TWO blockers, which directly led to an 80-yard TD run by Mike Anderson. Smith and McCaffrey were both run blocking beasts, and often got kudos for it, which is why it is funny when some act like Ward is the only great run-blocking WR in recent memory.
1st ballot
