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How Much Does Mask Hypocrisy Contribute To Vaccine Hesitancy? (9/20/21 21:34PST) (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter GordonGekko
- Start date
Herb
Footballguy
As a vaccinated person, I can still be a carrier. I can have it, have no symptoms, and then give it to someone unvaccinated, like both of my children, who are too young to get it. I can give it to my aunt, who cannot get vaccinated due to allergies. I'm not overly concerned about myself, it's people in my orbit that aren't vaccinated I worry about. And the bolded is a giant problem.
Pretty much the same as what I posted with one notable difference, the fact that vaccinated people are not 100% immune and can have breakthrough infections. I didn’t note that point but I should have. Reason I didn’t is because the ultimate risk isn’t all that severe. It’s my understanding that breakthrough cases carry minor symptoms akin to the common cold. Correct?
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Not always. It also ignores the fact that the larger percentage of unvaxxed there are, the more opportunities we create for bad mutations.
Zow
Footballguy
I’d put the unvaccinated into a few categories:
1. Historical vaccine hesitant - those who don’t trust vaccines or the government, many for good reasons. This is where many minority groups fall.
2. Historical anti-vaxxers. They don’t take any vaccines ever and this one is no different.
3. Misinformation hesitant - those who aren’t against vaccines but don’t have trustworthy sources of information (doctors, health professionals). They view information from memes and legit sources as being equal in value and the confusion keeps them from getting vaccinated.
4. Political anti-vax. Never had an issue with vaccines until COVID. Reasons for not getting vaccinated are constantly evolving because they don’t really have a good reason. Will argue total irrelevant points like mask hypocrisy, etc to justify their position but really are just stubborn kids stomping their feet saying ‘they don’t wanna do it’.
Group 3 is the most likely to be persuaded if given good information and strong recommendations from people they trust. Group 1 can be convinced but much harder. They are most likely to buy in quickly when they see COVID hits close to home. Groups 2 and 4 are lost causes and will only get vaccinated if forced. Some in group 4 may come around if someone close to them gets seriously ill but also unlikely. They are likely willing to lose their job rather than get a vaccine.
1. Historical vaccine hesitant - those who don’t trust vaccines or the government, many for good reasons. This is where many minority groups fall.
2. Historical anti-vaxxers. They don’t take any vaccines ever and this one is no different.
3. Misinformation hesitant - those who aren’t against vaccines but don’t have trustworthy sources of information (doctors, health professionals). They view information from memes and legit sources as being equal in value and the confusion keeps them from getting vaccinated.
4. Political anti-vax. Never had an issue with vaccines until COVID. Reasons for not getting vaccinated are constantly evolving because they don’t really have a good reason. Will argue total irrelevant points like mask hypocrisy, etc to justify their position but really are just stubborn kids stomping their feet saying ‘they don’t wanna do it’.
Group 3 is the most likely to be persuaded if given good information and strong recommendations from people they trust. Group 1 can be convinced but much harder. They are most likely to buy in quickly when they see COVID hits close to home. Groups 2 and 4 are lost causes and will only get vaccinated if forced. Some in group 4 may come around if someone close to them gets seriously ill but also unlikely. They are likely willing to lose their job rather than get a vaccine.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
to be fair, the pro-vaxxers also use untrustworthy sources and are confused on what's real and what isn't and they too are politically pro-vaxxer very much the same way
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
You are almost right in your usual jump to hyperbole. I don't think the bolded is acceptable either.
We do this all the time and make choices - maybe somebody isn't invited because they drink too much? There are neighbor kids I don't let my kid play with because they are knuckleheads, break stuff and don't play well with my daughter. None of these examples are "bullying". People and parents make choices all the time when it comes to safety.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
I wasn't
Back then, we showed our guns, even traded guns .... then after school I'd go shoot ducks with a guy on the river or someone would meet me with beagles and we'd rabbit hunt ... different life than most city slickers
Stealthycat
Footballguy
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
The key piece is that people are making that choice b/c of the safety to their kids. We are talking about a contagious virus, so no, I don't think asking somebody to not come to my party because of their choices with the virus is not the same as me asking somebody not to come to my party because they are gay are not remotely the same thing. But leave it up to you do try to equate them (and leave it up to me to be stupid and bored enough to take the bait and reply
)
Stealthycat
Footballguy
safety has nothing to do with it - it truly doesn't
covid is almost a zero threat to kids - you know that right ? but there is this great big lie being spread and people are believing it
and I can prove it - anyone can .... just look up how many kids die each year and from what ........... then look up how many kids (and by kids under 18 years old) that have died from covid in the last 18 months
you'd think tens of thousands of kids are dying - that's why we force them to get these shots and wear masks and even go to the extremes of bullying others ........... that's not the truth at all, is it ?
Herb
Footballguy
What you're saying here without actually saying it is that you grew up in a very small rural community, where the people you spent time with were all white and went to the same churches, everyone knew everyone else and all their business, and everyone toed the line because they were terrified of being ostracized by the other people that looked and thought like them. You didn't know any gay kids, artsy kids, musicians other than the church organist and choir director, never heard of punk rock and thought the "city" was the town down the road that had a supermarket, farm supply store, and a population of 45,000.
There's nothing wrong with any of that, but the fact that you have absolutely no understanding of other points of view and refuse to consider anything outside your opinions as valid makes me mostly dismiss your views, because to you diversity and open-mindedness is being willing to consider shooting a Browning, even though your brand is Smith & Wesson.
Stealthycat
Footballguy
not a bad guess at profiling ... a few errors in that I was kind of an outcast, I wasn't into sports much, I was the art guy, not popular, there was a gay guy in our school or two but they wasn't flamboyant and loud .... I listened to pop, not country and 45,000 isn't really a town anywhere FYI
but for a guy pumping listening to other points of views and having considerations you tried really hard not to listen didn't ya ? and do you think the places with 4 million people, all black/hispanic/whatever with nobody knowing much of anything other than crowded streets, smog, gunfire in the middle of the night and every weirdo walking the planet just two blocks away has any inking of my points of view and open minded about considering other ways of life?
I AM a S&W guy although I just recently got a 80 year old Sweet 16 Browning that's ultra cool
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Honestly that has 0 to do with it.
I am talking about parents making a decision based on their idea of safety. that's not bullying, and it's not in the same ballpark as not inviting a kid based on their sexual identity.
We can argue all we want about stats and odds, but that's irrelevant.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
I agree with that last point, and it is reason alone for society to press people to get vaccinated. I wish Leadership would focus on that issue because it makes complete sense. Sometimes I get the feeling they don’t trust Americans with the truth, which I believe is a mistake.
I don’t think there’s enough data yet to quantify how big a problem the bolded is. The key question is what’s the likelihood of a vaccinated person infecting an unvaccinated person. My guess is that it’s pretty low.
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Stealthycat
Footballguy
its funny how you so easily cast aside and say has zero to do with is - it has EVERYTHING to do with it
having an irrational, unreasonable fear of something is one thing - when you force others and bully others to satisfy your irrational fear - that's a product of being misled and lied to
you didn't answer how many kids have died from covid - why ? either you don't know the number (but you should if you're discussing it) or you know it and refuse to see the relevancy
kids under 18 don't need the shots because of the 73.1 million kids, only a few hundred have died and most had underlying conditions - twice as many died from h1n1
if that information was known to people, do you think it'd matter? or do you think what matters is all the news and media saying kids are dying of covid and we need to shot up everyone to protect the kids etc and they hear that and simply echo what they're being told ?
seriously, if Biden and Fauci said tonight wearing yellow stopped covid, if the media repeated it everyday .... many would dress in yellow and force their kids to wear yellow because its the right thing to do to stop this pandemic
cray cray
Stealthycat
Footballguy
this is false now that we see so many vaccinated people having covid - they're giving opportunities for mutations to
so quit spreading false information please, it only leads to more hysteria
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Americans have pretty consistently shown over the last few decades that truth doesn't much matter. Americans are, in aggregate, pretty stupid.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
We could argue if water is wet at this point. We are trying to make two different points now. We are not going to agree that not inviting unvaxxed people to a party is bullying. It really is a silly position.
I know the numbers, I know the odds, but that doesn't make it bullying which is what this dumb back and forth started with originally. Barely ever were my decisions based on my 6year old's chances of getting it or dying from it. More like my son who has asthma, my wife who is pre-diabetic and has asthma, and my dad who lives with us who is struggling with heart and lung problems. If it was just me, I would have taken different approaches over the last year +. There were times over the last year + where I had to make a decision who my kids hung around with due to other people's reaction to the virus. Same happened to me, like I said. One of my son's best friends couldn't hang with him because they thought we were too high risk. It happens, but it's not bullying.
ETA: and I hope the irony of somebody who talks a lot about the need for a gun to protect his house despite the miniscule % odds of ever having to (especially with all the other level of protection I'm pretty sure you said you have) telling others they are being silly because of the tiny % of dying from this isn't lost on people.
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Stealthycat
Footballguy
then don't call it bullying when people aren't invited for other reasons - stay consistent
and the numbers spawned from you saying "parents making a decision based on their idea of safety." .......... I think clearly now its NOT about kids safety and if parents believe that, then they have no idea even what they're being safe from
there are small odds and I'm making decisions for me - not you and certainly not forcing others and, I'm not going to tell people they can't come over to a party unless they own a gun and I won't tell them they can't come over without a certain shot either
Stealthycat
Footballguy
coming back to this for a second
where I grew up was something like you painted it .... now, paint my college years. Paint the 9 years I spent traveling this United States, living in Dallas, Houston, Corpus Christi, Denver, Co Springs, Grand Junction, Albuquerque, Minneapolis, Duluth, Chicago, Los Angeles ..... paint who I am knowing I had several non-white girlfriends. Profile my other 35 years too please, you are so good at it and then, tell me how I consider things, who've I've helped, what projects I've donated to and all that.
This should be good - waiting ....
Herb
Footballguy
Herb
Footballguy
Surprising to me that you would have gone and lived in this many places and been exposed to this much diversity and still be so adamant and unyielding in your thoughts and opinions. Like completely unable to change your mind about anything, ever; whatever information running counter to your beliefs is roundly ignored, without an ounce of thought or reflection. I don't think you're a bad guy, probably quite the opposite. And I'm not trying to attack you, even if it comes off that way. But, as many here have said many times, you are a real PITA to try to have a conversation with, because you regularly spout your opinions as fact, and are mentally impervious to corrections that utilize actual fact.
quick-hands
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Herb
Footballguy
I know you're not an epidemiologist, but spare us this garbage. Flat-out falsehood. People that share your views are getting other people killed.
I've seen enough of his posts to just put him on ignore. Like so many of his ilk, it's what they do. Personally, I don't think they actually believe what they post.
Zow
Footballguy
I give Stealthy a ton of credit - and therefore genuinely like him here - as he is actually willing to address posts made that counter his points. I may often disgree with him and find his logic lacking at times, but I definitely like his presence with him and would be happy to share a beer with him as he seems genuine in his intentions at engaging in dialogue.Herb said:
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Stealthycat
Footballguy
Herb said:
I have changed more in the last 2 years than in all my other 50 years combined - yes, I have beliefs and views and what separates me is I can tell you why I have them. Most people cannot. The pillars of their beliefs/views they cannot see, because they don't really know them.
I regularly spout my opinion as opinions and link why I believe they are true - absolutely, isn't that why we come to discuss things? Don't you do similar? Don't we all? And forums like this is where we're challenged - and me? I can tell you when I'm wrong about things, admit them, adjust my views and understandings ..... how can i possibly grow as a person if I don't ?
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Herb said:
I know you're not an epidemiologist, but spare us this garbage. Flat-out falsehood. People that share your views are getting other people killed.
right ?
mutations come from viruses ......... and as I understand it, there are 8 strains of coronavirus? and animals carry them too, not just the 7 billion on the planet ?
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
Ha, I actually may be able to accomplish that...get me an elk tag in AZ for archery and I'll buy you a keg of beer
heck, I'll get the J&J VAX if you can get me a reservation huntI can be bought, and I know it, and that's a reasonable price right there !!
Stealthycat
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
GordonGekko
Footballguy
VIDEO: Rep. Rashida Tlaib criticized for going maskless at wedding in area with substantial risk of Aug 10, 2021
Rep. Rashida Tlaib is being criticized after videos showed her at a wedding in a Michigan county with a substantial risk of COVID-19 transmission. She has recently condemned Kentucky Sen. Rand Paul for telling people to defy mask orders.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCmnWos7XNQ
VIDEO: Rep. Rashida Tlaib Says She's Wearing Mask Because Of 'Republican Tracker' Oct 6, 2021
Democratic Rep. Rashida Tlaib said she was wearing a mask because there was a "Republican tracker" nearby.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FKQ17jtUrI
DIRECT HEADLINE: Muslim leaders and activists tackle opposition to COVID-19 vaccines
By Tasmiha Khan July 12, 2021
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/news/article/muslim-vaccine-response
Vaccine rates among Muslims (Americans) had been among the lowest in the (entire) nation in the early months of the (COVID19) pandemic...
Some of the (vaccine) hesitancy stems from (perceived) racism experienced ( by Muslim Americans) during medical visits.
“Many (Muslim Americans) feel that the (existing) healthcare system does not work to promote their well-being (and general health),” Hussein says. “Many community members, especially the older (and influential) groups, felt very hesitant when the (COVID19) vaccines were (first) fully administered nationally. Much of the (vaccine) hesitancy comes from (their) personal experiences with (some) health professionals who have failed to accommodate (Muslim American) community members due to (clear) language and cultural barriers.”
Religious beliefs also have been a factor for some (Muslim Americans) who are still hesitant to get the (COVID19 vaccine) shot. The question of what is halal ( i.e. what is permissible under Islamic law ) has come up (frequently and) repeatedly across the (entire) Muslim community.
Following reports that at least one of the ( public ) vaccines (options) used cell lines derived from (human) fetal tissues, many Muslims questioned (openly and privately) whether it would be halal to have the shot administered....
********
Let's unpack this.
There is already clear vaccine hesitancy from Muslim Americans. Some stems from perception of racism against Muslims in America. Some stems from an aspect of their core religion. Some stems from general mistrust of the American government that is spurring vaccine hesitancy across many minority groups.
Rashida Tlaib is a brand name high profile Democrat in Congress and an original Progressive in The Squad. She is the very first woman of Palestinian descent in Congress. She is the very first Muslim woman to serve in the Michigan legislature. And, along with Ilhan Omar, she is one of the first two Muslim women whom have been elected to Congress.
You speak of "totally irrelevant points" but Tlaib carries the responsibility and burden of representing not just all Americans, not just all citizens in Michigan, but also her own people and to advocate for their best interests. If they are already vaccine hesitant, and many struggle with the English language already, what message does it send when Tliab doesn't wear a mask in a high risk zone, criticizes others for not wearing a mask and is caught on camera saying she only is wearing her mask in public when it appears she'll be caught in controversy if she doesn't?
IF YOU REFUSE TO LEAD BY EXAMPLE, THEN YOU'VE CHOSEN NOT TO LEAD AT ALL.
It's not like Tlaib's maskless wedding appearance required Jack Bauer to go on a secret mission to find it. Tlaib posted it on her own social media account. She literally rubbed it in everyone's faces.
There are Muslim Americans who rely on Tlaib to lead them because she is one of their own.
You can't have it both ways. You can't denounce "anti-vaxxers" as irresponsible heartless killers threatening all of society at large and not hold other people like Tlaib accountable who are also acting like irresponsible heartless killers threatening all of society at large.
Are you going to just say it's (D)ifferent?
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Mutations result from errors during viral replication. More virus = more mutations, period.
Even though peak viral levels in the nasopharynx are comparable between vaxxed and unvaxxed, unvaccinated people harbor the virus for longer, and likely have a higher viral burden throughout their body, as reflected by greater likelihood of symptoms and severe disease. Additionally, there’s reason to believe nucleic acid amplification tests, like PCR, may detect a bunch of non-replicative virus in the nasopharynx of vaccinated > unvaccinated people.
So on an individual basis, unvaccinated people are more likely to generate mutations. Plus they contract and spread the virus more readily, amplifying their contribution to viral evolution.
At some point, vaccinated people may be the major source of mutations, but that will only occur when the number of vaccinees far exceeds the unvaccinated. At the present time, only 46% of the world’s population has received at least on shot, so it’s hard to imagine how they’d be contributing more.
Care to explain how you’ve concluded otherwise?
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Both Tlaib and antivaxxers can be irresponsible, albeit for different reasons. But nobody is characterizing anti-vaxxers as heartless killers, at least in this forum - just misinformed, childish, selfish and/or mindlessly partisan.GordonGekko said:
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
jm192
Footballguy
This.
A lot of people decided their beliefs a long time ago. And they think their views are dogma. They aren't open to the possibility their beliefs could be wrong. They choose politicians that say what they want to hear. They reject those that don't.
This was shown to be true at a Trump rally recently where he was booed for encouraging vaccination.
NorvilleBarnes
Footballguy
You left out Biden, Pelosi, AOC, Newsom, and Fauci. But yeah, it's the "anti-vaxxers" who are misinformed, childish, selfish and/or mindlessly partisan.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
Direct Headline: Oregon Gov. Kate Brown criticized over maskless photos at D.C. gala while maintaining indoor mask mandate at home
Several photographs of Brown posing for pictures and speaking with other attendees while maskless circulated on Twitter, and numerous commenters, including Oregon’s Senate Republicans, jumped on to point out the apparent hypocrisy of Brown’s maintaining an indoor mask mandate across the state when she chose not to wear a mask herself at a large indoor event in D.C.
By Ted Sickinger Dec. 06, 2021, 5:28 p.m.
https://www.oregonlive.com/politics/2021/12/governor-criticized-over-maskless-photos-at-dc-gala-while-maintaining-indoor-mask-mandate-at-home.html
Direct Headline: Gov. Brown maskless in photo from D.C. event as officials consider permanent Oregon rule
Oregon is one of a handful of states still with an indoor mask mandate. The Oregon Health Authority met with stakeholders from the restaurant and indoor entertainment industries last week about making the rule "permanent."
Connor Radnovich, December 6, 2021
https://sports.yahoo.com/gov-brown-maskless-photo-d-201019007.html
Direct Headline: Governor Brushes Off Criticism of Maskless Photos at D.C. Event
Oregon Republicans previously criticized Brown for hiking sans mask in August 2020. At the time, the state required masks outdoors wherever people couldn’t stay 6 feet apart. When Brown reissued an outdoor mask mandate this August, she specifically exempted fleeting encounters, such as passing another person on a trail or sidewalk, but that exemption wasn’t in the 2020 order.
Oregon Capital Chronicle December 7, 2021
https://canbyfirst.com/governor-brushes-off-criticism-of-maskless-photos-at-d-c-event/
Direct Headline:The Good Life of Oregon Governor Kate Brown
A killer whale sightseeing expedition in Canada; hundreds of expensive car washes; yoga, movies, and brewery tabs; and 4,000 items are redacted from the governor’s official calendar. You paid for it while Oregon Governor Kate Brown feigns transparency....Recently, we found Brown soliciting hundreds of state vendors for $518,000 in campaign cash; paying for her personal law license with a state credit card; admitting to using public credit for personal expenses; redacting 4,000 items from her official calendar; and using state agency employees and resources to log and redact 500 campaign events.
Adam Andrzejewski May 24, 2018,07:56am EDT
https://www.forbes.com/sites/adamandrzejewski/2018/05/24/the-good-life-of-oregon-governor-kate-brown/?sh=de1abde62a99
*****
Kate Brown, for context let us remember she let Portland burn, has an indoor mask mandate and then just simply refuses to actually comply and provide an example for her constituents.
She is previously caught in public on a trail maskless, this violated her own mandates at the time and generated widespread criticism, so when the mandate was later reissued, she CHANGED it so what she previously got caught for could no longer be considered a violation.
With Omicron out and it's exponential rate of risk of transmission, how is this a display of any kind of practical leadership?
And why should she care? She's been caught before using taxpayer dollars as her own personal credit card and didn't care then either. Do you think the small business owners who were abandoned in 2020 to be burned and looted out in her state and under her "watch" had the same opportunity to change the laws and have close to unlimited tax payer funding to save themselves?
IF YOU REFUSE TO LEAD BY EXAMPLE, THEN YOU'VE CHOSEN TO REFUSE TO LEAD AT ALL
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