HS girls stage a walkout as trans teen uses girls bathroom (1 Viewer)

[Henry Ford]

Just to clarify this point, ICON- let's say this transgender has the full operation, and now no longer has a penis and is outwardly a female. If the other girls still reject being in the same locker room with her, they have no right to do so in your opinion? They're forced in that situation to accept her?

I don't think my point needs a whole lot of clarification. I'm merely stating that if you were born with a penis, and still are equipped with said penis, then you have no ####### business in a women's locker room or bathroom.

Beyond that, there can be discussion.

But that's a pretty simple and reasonable qualfier....

Does Caitlyn Jenner get to use the women's bathroom? I can actually answer that. The answer is yes. Are you okay with that?

Does Caitlyn Jenner get to use the women's locker room at her local fitness center? Is it OK if she gets naked and her penis is exposed to the female patrons in the locker room?

I would imagine the answer to the first question is yes, and to the extent it happens while changing clothes, the answer should definitely be yes. .

Let's say Caitlyn is like most old men in the gym and walks around nude, why would real women at a fitness center have to be exposed to Caitlyn's penis? What if their kid is in there with them, which happens all the time?Bull ####. No way a real biological woman would be okay with that.

Incidentally, if it's confusing, the bolded is the sticking point here.

Where are hermaphrodites allowed to shower in your world? Just wondering.

In the neutral one I guess, or the men's.It reminds me of the Bangkok strip club and the stripper Stu hooked up with walking around hanging out everywhere

Sorry, so a hermaphrodite defaults to having to live as a man? This is educational.

 

[Zow]

So if I'm understanding this correctly, the school could easily come under a title IX situation no matter what it decides. If they let this student into the girls locker room, the other girls (their parents) could file a suit. If they don't allow it, this student (her parents) could file suit.

While I kinda agree with Tim's idea of a gender neutral facility, this student didn't want that - and I can kinda agree - instead of being told you'll either use the locker room of the gender you are (which is still male) or of the sex you identify with (which is female), you're going to get this third option and not be part of either group.

Also, to me, for some reason when I was picturing Tim's idea in my head of a gender neutral facility just for her, the first image that popped in my head was of the plywood bathroom built for Aibileen in the movie The Help.

Exhibit A as to why this student is wrong:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3c143UdGxI

 

[sublimeone]

Let's say Caitlyn is like most old men in the gym and walks around nude, why would real women at a fitness center have to be exposed to Caitlyn's penis? What if their kid is in there with them, which happens all the time?

Bull ####. No way a real biological woman would be okay with that.

What's so scary about an old man's penis? Does looking at one make you go blind, turn you into a pillar of salt or something?

And why can't the women in the locker room do the same thing I do? Shame the old man into covering up.

"Bob, Jesus Christ, put a towel on. You look like a skeleton with a dehydrated baby carrot stapled to the pelvis."

Because it's a woman's locker room and women should have to tell old dudes to put the di*** away?

 

[Henry Ford]

Let's say Caitlyn is like most old men in the gym and walks around nude, why would real women at a fitness center have to be exposed to Caitlyn's penis? What if their kid is in there with them, which happens all the time?

Bull ####. No way a real biological woman would be okay with that.

What's so scary about an old man's penis? Does looking at one make you go blind, turn you into a pillar of salt or something?

And why can't the women in the locker room do the same thing I do? Shame the old man into covering up.

"Bob, Jesus Christ, put a towel on. You look like a skeleton with a dehydrated baby carrot stapled to the pelvis."

Because it's a woman's locker room and women should have to tell old dudes to put the di*** away?

But they might have to tell an old chick to.

 

[matttyl]

The question of whether someone truly identifies as female has very little to do with whether or not there's a bit of flesh hanging between the legs, though, in these situations. I agree.

I think we're talking past each other....you're talking about identifying, others are talking about biology.

Should what they identify as trump what they biologically or physically are? This individual has apparently been identifying as a woman for about 3-4 years (since age 13, don't know their current age). From that day forward, not identifying as a female, do they get all the "rights and privileges" biological/physical females, such as the girls locker room? If, not, when does it happen?

What if this student changes their mind and no longer wants to identify as female, but also not as male? What then?

That's what I mean by complex issues. I don't have an easy answer for that. I don't think anyone does. Exciting times.

Do you think this student should be allowed in the woman's locker room? You gave an answer above for Jenner, is it the same here?

 

[Cold Dead Hands]

Sorry, so a hermaphrodite defaults to having to live as a man? This is educational.

What have hermaphrodites done up to this point when it comes to bathrooms? I have no idea. I assume they live as either a man or woman in public and go to that bathroom. Never heard of a problem with them before.

 

[Henry Ford]

The question of whether someone truly identifies as female has very little to do with whether or not there's a bit of flesh hanging between the legs, though, in these situations. I agree.

I think we're talking past each other....you're talking about identifying, others are talking about biology.

Should what they identify as trump what they biologically or physically are? This individual has apparently been identifying as a woman for about 3-4 years (since age 13, don't know their current age). From that day forward, not identifying as a female, do they get all the "rights and privileges" biological/physical females, such as the girls locker room? If, not, when does it happen?

What if this student changes their mind and no longer wants to identify as female, but also not as male? What then?

That's what I mean by complex issues. I don't have an easy answer for that. I don't think anyone does. Exciting times.

Do you think this student should be allowed in the woman's locker room? You gave an answer above for Jenner, is it the same here?

I tried to say in my earlier post - I don't know for certain. I think in a perfect world, yes. I just don't know in this one. I lean toward yes, but I'd need some thought and maybe discussion of some of the finer points other than "PENIS!!!"

 

[sublimeone]

Let's say Caitlyn is like most old men in the gym and walks around nude, why would real women at a fitness center have to be exposed to Caitlyn's penis? What if their kid is in there with them, which happens all the time?

Bull ####. No way a real biological woman would be okay with that.

What's so scary about an old man's penis? Does looking at one make you go blind, turn you into a pillar of salt or something?

And why can't the women in the locker room do the same thing I do? Shame the old man into covering up.

"Bob, Jesus Christ, put a towel on. You look like a skeleton with a dehydrated baby carrot stapled to the pelvis."

Because it's a woman's locker room and women should have to tell old dudes to put the di*** away?

But they might have to tell an old chick to.

If naked people are no big deal why have any classification of locker rooms at all?

 

[Henry Ford]

Sorry, so a hermaphrodite defaults to having to live as a man? This is educational.

What have hermaphrodites done up to this point when it comes to bathrooms? I have no idea. I assume they live as either a man or woman in public and go to that bathroom. Never heard of a problem with them before.

Precisely this. They choose. And it isn't decided by whether or not there's a penis.

 

[Henry Ford]

Not much sure it's possible here, but this does bring up legitimate issues of freedom. Yes, we should all be allowed to identify with the sexuality we feel. I guess, since it's never much been an issue for me so no idea how it actually feels.

That said, the right of the individual should not trump the rights of many - and even if indeed we as a society need to adjust and evolve on this issue (I can 100% understand the unease here) as we have with many others such as race, homosexuality etc, this is not just black and white and may need some time and staged approach?

Obviously a lot would seem to depend on where the community is and general local mores, along with how the person is received (ie some stories that a transgender girl wins homecoming or something) and how the person / family deals with the issue (ie not just hey I'm here it's me ####### deal with it or else doesn't really help things )

I don't necessarily agree with this statement on the rights of individuals vs the many, and I think there are plenty of examples when it's wrong. As to needing time to evolve on it - that's pretty much exactly what I'm saying.

 

[Henry Ford]

Let's say Caitlyn is like most old men in the gym and walks around nude, why would real women at a fitness center have to be exposed to Caitlyn's penis? What if their kid is in there with them, which happens all the time?

Bull ####. No way a real biological woman would be okay with that.

What's so scary about an old man's penis? Does looking at one make you go blind, turn you into a pillar of salt or something?

And why can't the women in the locker room do the same thing I do? Shame the old man into covering up.

"Bob, Jesus Christ, put a towel on. You look like a skeleton with a dehydrated baby carrot stapled to the pelvis."

Because it's a woman's locker room and women should have to tell old dudes to put the di*** away?

But they might have to tell an old chick to.

If naked people are no big deal why have any classification of locker rooms at all?

Because of gender constructs. That's it. Whole reason. Why do you think we do?

 

[Cold Dead Hands]

I find this entire debate fascinating and have no idea what the solution is or if there even is a suitable solution in today's American society. Inclusion or segregation, neither are mutually exclusive to acceptance except through perception. Interesting stuff. Wish this stuff was going on when I was in college studying Sociology.

 

[tonydead]

That's well and good if


1. You don't live in ########, Alabama, and there's a doctor who will go to bat for you on this issue; and

2. You have health insurance that will simultaneously pay for legal appearances by a doctor or are wealthy.

What you're describing is a system where urban wealth dictates the ability to go to the bathroom. That's a fairly complicated system. Do I think it would be easier in 20 years? Absolutely. But getting to that point will take scenarios like this one.

EDIT: also, I don't mean this about any of the judges I practice in front of, obviously, but I've heard that some judges probably would be difficult to get in front of on an issue like this.

You are overstating the issue. It's not the ability to go to the bathroom, it's the ability to go to the bathroom of their choice.

Everyday children are born with "abnormalities" much worse than bathroom choice to families with money problems in parts of the world with system issues. It's not fair, it's life.

 

[sublimeone]

Let's say Caitlyn is like most old men in the gym and walks around nude, why would real women at a fitness center have to be exposed to Caitlyn's penis? What if their kid is in there with them, which happens all the time?

Bull ####. No way a real biological woman would be okay with that.

What's so scary about an old man's penis? Does looking at one make you go blind, turn you into a pillar of salt or something?

And why can't the women in the locker room do the same thing I do? Shame the old man into covering up.

"Bob, Jesus Christ, put a towel on. You look like a skeleton with a dehydrated baby carrot stapled to the pelvis."

Because it's a woman's locker room and women should have to tell old dudes to put the di*** away?

But they might have to tell an old chick to.

If naked people are no big deal why have any classification of locker rooms at all?

Because of gender constructs. That's it. Whole reason. Why do you think we do?

are you an advocate of eliminating gender constructs? One bathroom, one basketball team (no male/feamale) leagues, etc...

 

[matttyl]

The question of whether someone truly identifies as female has very little to do with whether or not there's a bit of flesh hanging between the legs, though, in these situations. I agree.

I think we're talking past each other....you're talking about identifying, others are talking about biology.

Should what they identify as trump what they biologically or physically are? This individual has apparently been identifying as a woman for about 3-4 years (since age 13, don't know their current age). From that day forward, not identifying as a female, do they get all the "rights and privileges" biological/physical females, such as the girls locker room? If, not, when does it happen?

What if this student changes their mind and no longer wants to identify as female, but also not as male? What then?

That's what I mean by complex issues. I don't have an easy answer for that. I don't think anyone does. Exciting times.

Do you think this student should be allowed in the woman's locker room? You gave an answer above for Jenner, is it the same here?

I tried to say in my earlier post - I don't know for certain. I think in a perfect world, yes. I just don't know in this one. I lean toward yes, but I'd need some thought and maybe discussion of some of the finer points other than "PENIS!!!"

Why not use CHROMOSOMES!?

 

[Henry Ford]

That's well and good if


1. You don't live in ########, Alabama, and there's a doctor who will go to bat for you on this issue; and

2. You have health insurance that will simultaneously pay for legal appearances by a doctor or are wealthy.

What you're describing is a system where urban wealth dictates the ability to go to the bathroom. That's a fairly complicated system. Do I think it would be easier in 20 years? Absolutely. But getting to that point will take scenarios like this one.

EDIT: also, I don't mean this about any of the judges I practice in front of, obviously, but I've heard that some judges probably would be difficult to get in front of on an issue like this.

You are overstating the issue. It's not the ability to go to the bathroom, it's the ability to go to the bathroom of their choice.

Everyday children are born with "abnormalities" much worse than bathroom choice to families with money problems in parts of the world with system issues. It's not fair, it's life.

I would argue that most issues that end a debate with "it's not fair, it's life" are not simple issues. And on some level I agree wholeheartedly. But that's what makes the evolution of this issue interesting.

 

[tonydead]

If naked people are no big deal why have any classification of locker rooms at all?

I blame religion and their association of nudity to morality.

 

[Henry Ford]

The question of whether someone truly identifies as female has very little to do with whether or not there's a bit of flesh hanging between the legs, though, in these situations. I agree.

I think we're talking past each other....you're talking about identifying, others are talking about biology.

Should what they identify as trump what they biologically or physically are? This individual has apparently been identifying as a woman for about 3-4 years (since age 13, don't know their current age). From that day forward, not identifying as a female, do they get all the "rights and privileges" biological/physical females, such as the girls locker room? If, not, when does it happen?

What if this student changes their mind and no longer wants to identify as female, but also not as male? What then?

That's what I mean by complex issues. I don't have an easy answer for that. I don't think anyone does. Exciting times.

Do you think this student should be allowed in the woman's locker room? You gave an answer above for Jenner, is it the same here?

I tried to say in my earlier post - I don't know for certain. I think in a perfect world, yes. I just don't know in this one. I lean toward yes, but I'd need some thought and maybe discussion of some of the finer points other than "PENIS!!!"

Why not use CHROMOSOMES!?

Because sex isn't determined solely by chromosome. Look up research on the SRY gene, for starters. And it's an expensive process to use when going to the bathroom, anyway.

 

[matttyl]

Sorry, so a hermaphrodite defaults to having to live as a man? This is educational.

What have hermaphrodites done up to this point when it comes to bathrooms? I have no idea. I assume they live as either a man or woman in public and go to that bathroom. Never heard of a problem with them before.

Precisely this. They choose. And it isn't decided by whether or not there's a penis.

But don't they get to choose because technically they are in fact both? Kinda like Obama choosing to be either black or white?

That's not the case here I don't believe (at least physically, currently). This student is physically all one, but choosing to be all the other. So this would be like Rachel Dolezal, the white lady choosing to be black.

 

[timschochet]

If they let this kid use the girl's locker room, I assume a lot of other boys will be claiming to be transgender.

Congratulations, you're the third person to raise this point. There's you, sublimeone, and Mike Huckabee. All 3 of you seem fascinated by this threat of heterosexual teenage boys pretending to be transgender in order to get a peek at naked girls. Why, the War on Christmas seems minor compared to this danger!

 

[Henry Ford]

Sorry, so a hermaphrodite defaults to having to live as a man? This is educational.

What have hermaphrodites done up to this point when it comes to bathrooms? I have no idea. I assume they live as either a man or woman in public and go to that bathroom. Never heard of a problem with them before.

Precisely this. They choose. And it isn't decided by whether or not there's a penis.

But don't they get to choose because technically they are in fact both? Kinda like Obama choosing to be either black or white?

That's not the case here I don't believe (at least physically, currently). This student is physically all one, but choosing to be all the other. So this would be like Rachel Dolezal, the white lady choosing to be black.

No, they have to choose because they are neither, not both, and people who build locker rooms and maintain locker rooms tell them they have to pick one and stick with it.

 

[McGarnicle]

If naked people are no big deal why have any classification of locker rooms at all?

I blame religion and their association of nudity to morality.

I blame Eve. Like most of society's problems, it can all be traced back to some #####.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

I guess I missed the explanation on how giving the kid his own bathroom to use was discrimination. Seems more like privilege to me.

 

[Henry Ford]

Let's say Caitlyn is like most old men in the gym and walks around nude, why would real women at a fitness center have to be exposed to Caitlyn's penis? What if their kid is in there with them, which happens all the time?

Bull ####. No way a real biological woman would be okay with that.

What's so scary about an old man's penis? Does looking at one make you go blind, turn you into a pillar of salt or something?

And why can't the women in the locker room do the same thing I do? Shame the old man into covering up.

"Bob, Jesus Christ, put a towel on. You look like a skeleton with a dehydrated baby carrot stapled to the pelvis."

Because it's a woman's locker room and women should have to tell old dudes to put the di*** away?

But they might have to tell an old chick to.

If naked people are no big deal why have any classification of locker rooms at all?

Because of gender constructs. That's it. Whole reason. Why do you think we do?

are you an advocate of eliminating gender constructs? One bathroom, one basketball team (no male/feamale) leagues, etc...

I'm not really an advocate for it, but I'm not against it.

 

[Henry Ford]

I guess I missed the explanation on how giving the kid his own bathroom to use was discrimination. Seems more like privilege to me.

Then you should be allowed to have one, if you're ever that position.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

If they let this kid use the girl's locker room, I assume a lot of other boys will be claiming to be transgender.

Congratulations, you're the third person to raise this point. There's you, sublimeone, and Mike Huckabee. All 3 of you seem fascinated by this threat of heterosexual teenage boys pretending to be transgender in order to get a peek at naked girls. Why, the War on Christmas seems minor compared to this danger!

Do you not remember high school? Of course teenage boys are going to try this.

 

[Henry Ford]

If they let this kid use the girl's locker room, I assume a lot of other boys will be claiming to be transgender.

Congratulations, you're the third person to raise this point. There's you, sublimeone, and Mike Huckabee. All 3 of you seem fascinated by this threat of heterosexual teenage boys pretending to be transgender in order to get a peek at naked girls. Why, the War on Christmas seems minor compared to this danger!

Do you not remember high school? Of course teenage boys are going to try this.

The U.S. Department of Education clarification statement on the rights of transgendered students under Title IX is almost a year and a half old. Where are your examples?

 

[matttyl]

Why not use CHROMOSOMES!?

Because sex isn't determined solely by chromosome. Look up research on the SRY gene, for starters. And it's an expensive process to use when going to the bathroom, anyway.

First off, I think you mean gender isn't determined solely by chromosome. Didn't we all come to the determination that gender is more naturally determined while sex is what you personally identify as (and that ~99% of the time those are the same thing)?

Honestly, I'm probably not smart enough to fully grasp what you're talking about. Nor do I currently have the time to give the subject the attention it likely deserves with a newborn at home.

Can you answer this to me, though - can a human with an XY chromosome set naturally produce an egg that could be (again, naturally) fertilized? Alternatively, could a human with an XX chromosome set naturally fertilize a naturally produced egg? That's about as far as my non-med school mind can go.

 

[matttyl]

Sorry, so a hermaphrodite defaults to having to live as a man? This is educational.

What have hermaphrodites done up to this point when it comes to bathrooms? I have no idea. I assume they live as either a man or woman in public and go to that bathroom. Never heard of a problem with them before.

Precisely this. They choose. And it isn't decided by whether or not there's a penis.

But don't they get to choose because technically they are in fact both? Kinda like Obama choosing to be either black or white?

That's not the case here I don't believe (at least physically, currently). This student is physically all one, but choosing to be all the other. So this would be like Rachel Dolezal, the white lady choosing to be black.

No, they have to choose because they are neither, not both, and people who build locker rooms and maintain locker rooms tell them they have to pick one and stick with it.

Forgive me, I have extremely limited knowledge on the subject, but ....from wiki....

In biology, a hermaphrodite is an organism that has reproductive organs normally associated with both male and female sexes."

 

[tonydead]

That's well and good if


1. You don't live in ########, Alabama, and there's a doctor who will go to bat for you on this issue; and

2. You have health insurance that will simultaneously pay for legal appearances by a doctor or are wealthy.

What you're describing is a system where urban wealth dictates the ability to go to the bathroom. That's a fairly complicated system. Do I think it would be easier in 20 years? Absolutely. But getting to that point will take scenarios like this one.

EDIT: also, I don't mean this about any of the judges I practice in front of, obviously, but I've heard that some judges probably would be difficult to get in front of on an issue like this.

You are overstating the issue. It's not the ability to go to the bathroom, it's the ability to go to the bathroom of their choice.

Everyday children are born with "abnormalities" much worse than bathroom choice to families with money problems in parts of the world with system issues. It's not fair, it's life.

I would argue that most issues that end a debate with "it's not fair, it's life" are not simple issues. And on some level I agree wholeheartedly. But that's what makes the evolution of this issue interesting.

If you are trying to make every single issue fair to every single person then I agree, every issue is infinitely complex. Good luck with that.

I believe in this case there is a simple answer that is already in place and is fair to most people: We have a process for gender identification and a process for changing that gender if you wish. Use that process.

 

[timschochet]

If they let this kid use the girl's locker room, I assume a lot of other boys will be claiming to be transgender.

Congratulations, you're the third person to raise this point. There's you, sublimeone, and Mike Huckabee. All 3 of you seem fascinated by this threat of heterosexual teenage boys pretending to be transgender in order to get a peek at naked girls. Why, the War on Christmas seems minor compared to this danger!

Do you not remember high school? Of course teenage boys are going to try this.

I'm sure a few will joke about doing it. I'd be astonished if a few actually tried it. And if they did they'd be shut down immediately.

 

[ClownCausedChaos2]

I'll bet if the genders were reversed here, there wouldn't be any complaint by the boys.

Yeah, normally those chicks that want to be dudes are so hot.

Boobs is boobs.

 

[McGarnicle]

If they let this kid use the girl's locker room, I assume a lot of other boys will be claiming to be transgender.

Congratulations, you're the third person to raise this point. There's you, sublimeone, and Mike Huckabee. All 3 of you seem fascinated by this threat of heterosexual teenage boys pretending to be transgender in order to get a peek at naked girls. Why, the War on Christmas seems minor compared to this danger!

Do you not remember high school? Of course teenage boys are going to try this.

I'm sure a few will joke about doing it. I'd be astonished if a few actually tried it. And if they did they'd be shut down immediately.

I would've tried it. I'm actually kind of pissed this wasn't a thing when I was in HS.

 

[Henry Ford]

Why not use CHROMOSOMES!?

Because sex isn't determined solely by chromosome. Look up research on the SRY gene, for starters. And it's an expensive process to use when going to the bathroom, anyway.

First off, I think you mean gender isn't determined solely by chromosome. Didn't we all come to the determination that gender is more naturally determined while sex is what you personally identify as (and that ~99% of the time those are the same thing)?

Honestly, I'm probably not smart enough to fully grasp what you're talking about. Nor do I currently have the time to give the subject the attention it likely deserves with a newborn at home.

Can you answer this to me, though - can a human with an XY chromosome set naturally produce an egg that could be (again, naturally) fertilized? Alternatively, could a human with an XX chromosome set naturally fertilize a naturally produced egg? That's about as far as my non-med school mind can go.

First - no, I don't mean gender. I mean sex.

Second, you're focusing - again, in this thread - on the ability to produce offspring. Which cannot be determinative of sex because of all the people who can't have kids and are still male or female.

Third, in a case of XY gonadal dysgenesis, a child is born with, among other things, completely normal female genitalia and no male genitalia or gonads. They live as female all their lives, and (maybe) find out when puberty doesn't hit or hits late what's going on - depending on what happens. Depending on severity, they may need hormonal therapy in order to begin menstruation, but that's it. They are born, live, and die as female. Caster Semenya, a track star, dealt with this. Born with a ###### and the ability to (though may need hormone injections to start) menstruate. That's not a male sex.

Edit: that's not a dirty word, it's the medical term. Weird language filter.

 

[Henry Ford]

Sorry, so a hermaphrodite defaults to having to live as a man? This is educational.

What have hermaphrodites done up to this point when it comes to bathrooms? I have no idea. I assume they live as either a man or woman in public and go to that bathroom. Never heard of a problem with them before.

Precisely this. They choose. And it isn't decided by whether or not there's a penis.

But don't they get to choose because technically they are in fact both? Kinda like Obama choosing to be either black or white?

That's not the case here I don't believe (at least physically, currently). This student is physically all one, but choosing to be all the other. So this would be like Rachel Dolezal, the white lady choosing to be black.

No, they have to choose because they are neither, not both, and people who build locker rooms and maintain locker rooms tell them they have to pick one and stick with it.

Forgive me, I have extremely limited knowledge on the subject, but ....from wiki....

In biology, a hermaphrodite is an organism that has reproductive organs normally associated with both male and female sexes."

Having the reproductive organs normally associated with both sexes doesn't make you both sexes.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Poll added.

 

[Henry Ford]

That's well and good if


1. You don't live in ########, Alabama, and there's a doctor who will go to bat for you on this issue; and

2. You have health insurance that will simultaneously pay for legal appearances by a doctor or are wealthy.

What you're describing is a system where urban wealth dictates the ability to go to the bathroom. That's a fairly complicated system. Do I think it would be easier in 20 years? Absolutely. But getting to that point will take scenarios like this one.

EDIT: also, I don't mean this about any of the judges I practice in front of, obviously, but I've heard that some judges probably would be difficult to get in front of on an issue like this.

You are overstating the issue. It's not the ability to go to the bathroom, it's the ability to go to the bathroom of their choice.

Everyday children are born with "abnormalities" much worse than bathroom choice to families with money problems in parts of the world with system issues. It's not fair, it's life.

I would argue that most issues that end a debate with "it's not fair, it's life" are not simple issues. And on some level I agree wholeheartedly. But that's what makes the evolution of this issue interesting.

If you are trying to make every single issue fair to every single person then I agree, every issue is infinitely complex. Good luck with that.

I believe in this case there is a simple answer that is already in place and is fair to most people: We have a process for gender identification and a process for changing that gender if you wish. Use that process.

Thanks. It's one of the reasons I'm a civil rights lawyer.

 

[sublimeone]

Let's say Caitlyn is like most old men in the gym and walks around nude, why would real women at a fitness center have to be exposed to Caitlyn's penis? What if their kid is in there with them, which happens all the time?

Bull ####. No way a real biological woman would be okay with that.

What's so scary about an old man's penis? Does looking at one make you go blind, turn you into a pillar of salt or something?

And why can't the women in the locker room do the same thing I do? Shame the old man into covering up.

"Bob, Jesus Christ, put a towel on. You look like a skeleton with a dehydrated baby carrot stapled to the pelvis."

Because it's a woman's locker room and women should have to tell old dudes to put the di*** away?

But they might have to tell an old chick to.

If naked people are no big deal why have any classification of locker rooms at all?

Because of gender constructs. That's it. Whole reason. Why do you think we do?

are you an advocate of eliminating gender constructs? One bathroom, one basketball team (no male/feamale) leagues, etc...

I'm not really an advocate for it, but I'm not against it.

well then you're insane

 

[Henry Ford]

I'm not really an advocate for it, but I'm not against it.

well then you're insane

Seems like a big leap, but we all have our opinions.

 

[ClownCausedChaos2]

Poll added.

What took you so long? I'm on my second pole.

 

[Henry Ford]

Why not use CHROMOSOMES!?

Because sex isn't determined solely by chromosome. Look up research on the SRY gene, for starters. And it's an expensive process to use when going to the bathroom, anyway.

First off, I think you mean gender isn't determined solely by chromosome. Didn't we all come to the determination that gender is more naturally determined while sex is what you personally identify as (and that ~99% of the time those are the same thing)?

Honestly, I'm probably not smart enough to fully grasp what you're talking about. Nor do I currently have the time to give the subject the attention it likely deserves with a newborn at home.

Can you answer this to me, though - can a human with an XY chromosome set naturally produce an egg that could be (again, naturally) fertilized? Alternatively, could a human with an XX chromosome set naturally fertilize a naturally produced egg? That's about as far as my non-med school mind can go.

First - no, I don't mean gender. I mean sex.

Second, you're focusing - again, in this thread - on the ability to produce offspring. Which cannot be determinative of sex because of all the people who can't have kids and are still male or female.

Third, in a case of XY gonadal dysgenesis, a child is born with, among other things, completely normal female genitalia and no male genitalia or gonads. They live as female all their lives, and (maybe) find out when puberty doesn't hit or hits late what's going on - depending on what happens. Depending on severity, they may need hormonal therapy in order to begin menstruation, but that's it. They are born, live, and die as female. Caster Semenya, a track star, dealt with this. Born with a ###### and the ability to (though may need hormone injections to start) menstruate. That's not a male sex.

Edit: that's not a dirty word, it's the medical term. Weird language filter.

In case I'm not being clear here, it is unequivocally the case that some men are XX and some women are XY. It's not usual, but it happens.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Poll added.

What took you so long? I'm on my second pole.

Should've started with two, then I could've added the zinger "poll subtracted"

 

[BowieMercs]

If they let this kid use the girl's locker room, I assume a lot of other boys will be claiming to be transgender.

Congratulations, you're the third person to raise this point. There's you, sublimeone, and Mike Huckabee. All 3 of you seem fascinated by this threat of heterosexual teenage boys pretending to be transgender in order to get a peek at naked girls. Why, the War on Christmas seems minor compared to this danger!

Why drag iggles fans into this?

 

[tonydead]

are you an advocate of eliminating gender constructs? One bathroom, one basketball team (no male/feamale) leagues, etc...

I'm not really an advocate for it, but I'm not against it.

well then you're insane

I actually like this discussion better than the tranny bathroom talk.

I'm all for getting rid of gender constructs that are based on religious dogma like nudity being sinful. I think sports gender constructs are a result of women not being able to compete with men. We've seen plenty of examples of that starting to change with the most intriguing one being Rhonda wanting to fight Floyd. I don't necessarily see anything wrong with putting out the best team if women do start to compete with men.

 

[matttyl]

Second, you're focusing - again, in this thread - on the ability to produce offspring. Which cannot be determinative of sex because of all the people who can't have kids and are still male or female.

And again, like I said (likely) said in the other thread - it's not the sole determinative of sex.

What I'm saying is that if you can produce an egg, then you are automatically female. That doesn't automatically mean that if you can't produce an egg you're automatically not female (or automatically a male). I mean young girls obviously can't produce an egg, that doesn't make them not female, does it? But your characterization of my statement would make it that way.

Alternatively, if you can naturally fertilize that egg, you are automatically male (which may be the case here, and may also still be the case with Jenner). Again, that doesn't automatically mean that if you can not fertilize an egg that you are not a male, or a female. I never said it was an "all or nothing" characteristic.

If this student could naturally fertilize an egg, I'm not sure how you or anyone could then say he's not in fact biologically a male. She can identify any way she wants to, that's a different question.

 

[Henry Ford]

And here we go -

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2190741/

Yes, someone with an XY chromosomal print can give birth to a healthy child, from her own egg.

 

[FUBAR]

are you an advocate of eliminating gender constructs? One bathroom, one basketball team (no male/feamale) leagues, etc...

I'm not really an advocate for it, but I'm not against it.

well then you're insane

I actually like this discussion better than the tranny bathroom talk.

I'm all for getting rid of gender constructs that are based on religious dogma like nudity being sinful. I think sports gender constructs are a result of women not being able to compete with men. We've seen plenty of examples of that starting to change with the most intriguing one being Rhonda wanting to fight Floyd. I don't necessarily see anything wrong with putting out the best team if women do start to compete with men.

agreed. It's gotten to the point that in our under 5 soccer league, there are a boys league and a girls league. I was stunned.

 

[Henry Ford]

Second, you're focusing - again, in this thread - on the ability to produce offspring. Which cannot be determinative of sex because of all the people who can't have kids and are still male or female.

And again, like I said (likely) said in the other thread - it's not the sole determinative of sex.

What I'm saying is that if you can produce an egg, then you are automatically female. That doesn't automatically mean that if you can't produce an egg you're automatically not female (or automatically a male). I mean young girls obviously can't produce an egg, that doesn't make them not female, does it? But your characterization of my statement would make it that way.

Alternatively, if you can naturally fertilize that egg, you are automatically male (which may be the case here, and may also still be the case with Jenner). Again, that doesn't automatically mean that if you can not fertilize an egg that you are not a male, or a female. I never said it was an "all or nothing" characteristic.

If this student could naturally fertilize an egg, I'm not sure how you or anyone could then say he's not in fact biologically a male. She can identify any way she wants to, that's a different question.

And we weren't talking about this scenario when I was discussing fertilization, we were talking about chromosomes. See above.

 

[FUBAR]

seems the better, though more costly, choice is to have separate bathrooms and locker rooms for everyone.

 

[matttyl]

In case I'm not being clear here, it is unequivocally the case that some men are XX and some women are XY. It's not usual, but it happens.

Interesting, didn't know that. How often does this occur? Can either type reproduce? I would think that the man could, but only make males, and that the female could but would have males 2'3rds of the time (or couldn't due to the YY possibility).