Is Doug Flutie a Hall of Famer? (1 Viewer)

[CalBear]

There's an entire section in the HALL devouted to players who played PRO FOOTBALL from 1892-1919. The NFL was founded in 1920. Did you know Larry Csonka is listed in the PRO FOOTBALL Hall of Fame under the WFL? Interesting.

So, what is your list of Canadian, Australian-rules, Arena League, and soccer players who should be in Canton? What happened before the NFL was formed is not relevant at all to whether players of completely different modern games should be in Canton.

YOU made the statement that everyone in the Hall except Billy Shaw made their contribution in the NFL. I was pointing out that there's a list of players from BEFORE there was an NFL that are in the Hall,that's all.

Great, so we're in agreement that NFL pre-history has no bearing on whether modern Canadian Football players belong in Canton.

 

[Milwaukees_best]

Flutie will never be in the HOF unless he gets into Midget porn

 

[Macdaddy_2004]

You guys are gonna be surprised - Flutie will easily be inducted in ...... it may be a while but as soon as he's eligible he should be there within a couple of years

 

[Sheriff66]

1st ballot, this is the PRO football HOF, his accomplishments speak for themselves...See Warren Moon.

Warrnen was a star in Canada.Doug was a star in Canada.

That's where any comparison stops. Moon was also a star in the NFL and set many franchise and some NFL records. Doug made a drop-kick in a meaningless game. Flutie should be in the HoF the year after Pringle gets in the HoF. Which will be never.

Way more of a star than Moon ever was, Flutie has stepped in a played well when called upon in the NFL, better than any 5'9" squirt was ever expected to do. This isn't the NFL HOF, it's the PRO FOOTBALL HOFHe is a 1st ballot HOFer, period. Do I think he is an NFL HOF QB ? Not by a long shot. but if you take his tenure in pro football, his CFL career, his Hail Mary(shouldn't matter, but he is a legend in football, can't deny that), is "cheer for the little runt underdog" fans.....IN

That's the truth of the matter. He's a good story. He's the little guy with a heart the size of moon. Great for a Lifetime movie or after school special, but no where near a HoF'r. Warrick Dunn has faced severe personal hardship in his life. He has been a near model NFL player off the field giving tons of his time and money to charity and people in need. He's also a little guy with a heart the size of the moon. Warrick Dunn could have been a monster in the CFL and his NFL career has been much more successful than Flutie's. So does Dunn get a free pass in the HoF'r? He's a big time feel good story. Do you penalize Dunn for not spending time in the CFL and putting up huge stats there? Or do you recognize the fact that the only reason Flutie was in the CFL to begin with is that he could not cut it in the NFL. That sound like a HoF'r to you?

I already said I don't think he's a NFL caliber HOF QB, but the name of the thread is "Is Doug Flutie a HOFer", and for whatever the reason is, he will make it on the 1st ballot, write it down.

 

[T Man]

Moon was a stellar NFL QB. His statistics and career in the CFL were the proverbial "icing on the cake". IMHO he could get in on his NFL career alone.

Flutie was a stellar CFL QB. His career in the NFL was nothing spectacular -- his only good seasons being in Buffalo. IMHO he cannot get in on his NFL career.

THe discussion surrounding Moon's placement on the ballot was whether the voters consider the CFL component. I do not think that the question was answered.

I realize that it is called the Pro Football Hall of Fame, but surely there are CFL greats that are not included nor ever considered.

If Flutie is voted in, clearly the CFL matters because he could not get in on his NFL career. IF that is the case, arguments will be made that CFL greats should be considered. Not sure the voters want to go down that road.

Should be interesting in 5 years.

 

[Assani Fisher]

Moon was a stellar NFL QB.

Flutie was a stellar CFL QB.

This imo is where you're not giving Flutie enough credit. Its like saying "Keyshawn Johnson is a stellar NFL WR. Jerry Rice was a stellar NFL WR." While neither of those statements are false, I think you can seem how it lessens Rice's accomplishments to use the same adjective for both him and Keyshawn. Same case here. Flutie was aruguably the best CFL player of all time!

 

[massraider]

Moon was a stellar NFL QB.

Flutie was a stellar CFL QB. 

This imo is where you're not giving Flutie enough credit. Its like saying "Keyshawn Johnson is a stellar NFL WR. Jerry Rice was a stellar NFL WR." While neither of those statements are false, I think you can seem how it lessens Rice's accomplishments to use the same adjective for both him and Keyshawn. Same case here. Flutie was aruguably the best CFL player of all time!

Well, hang on here, didn't Moon win 5 Grey Cups in 5 seasons in Canada? Or something like that?Flutie might have had a better career in the CFL, but a KeySawn/Rice comparison seems a bit of a reach to me.

But I get your point, Flutie was the greatest CFL player ever.

That and a token will get him on the subway.

 

[T Man]

Moon was a stellar NFL QB.

Flutie was a stellar CFL QB. 

This imo is where you're not giving Flutie enough credit. Its like saying "Keyshawn Johnson is a stellar NFL WR. Jerry Rice was a stellar NFL WR." While neither of those statements are false, I think you can seem how it lessens Rice's accomplishments to use the same adjective for both him and Keyshawn. Same case here. Flutie was aruguably the best CFL player of all time!

Ok. Flutie let's just say was the greatest CFL player of all time. His NFL career alone does not justify his induction into the pro football hall of fame. His CFL career alone would warrant induction (if it is to be considered.)Moon's numbers in the NFL put him in the top 5 QBs (I think). His NFL career justified induction. HE was great in the CFL as well. At the time, some said he was the best ever QB.

The problem isn't with Flutie. He was great for the game. But the voters will have to decide if CFL careers warrant induction into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. If yes, he's in. If no, he's not.

But if Flutie is inducted, what about Darren Flutie -- who some say arguably is the best WR ever in the CFL. Would people say Darren FLutie desreves to be in over Michael Irving????

Or Willie Pless - some say a top 5 LB of all time in the CFL. Will there be a debate that he should be in Canton. Pless versus Seau???

And what about all of the other great players who are already inducted into the Canadian Football Hall of Fame in Hamilton? Should they get consideration for induction into Canton? Will they?

Like you said, Doug Flutie is arguably the best ever in the CFL. Well what about the other greats who are in that conversation. There was no uproar for them to get in the Pro Football Hall of Fame. And, probably very little thought.

Is that justified? Maybe not. But it's true.

 

[DonnyT33]

without sifting through all the post I dont know if this was brought up but i would guess it was..anyway remember this its not the NFL HOF its the FOOTBALL HOF under that criteria he surely belongs as nobody has thrown for more yards and he was on of the best ever in college and the CFL..he just never got the chance in the NFL when he was in his prime or he would have put up big numbers then also. Flutie is one the best best small guy athletes ever in the league and all sports for that matter the guy can do incredible things..

 

[DonnyT33]

Whomever voted Yes should be stoned to death.

get a clue what your talking about before you post here kid. It's thje FOOTBALL HOF not the NFL HOF..see Warren Moon. The old AFL guys should not have ever gotten in either, right. Nobody has thrown for more yards in pro football than Flutie. Dopes like this ruin these boards...

 

[DonnyT33]

1st ballot, this is the PRO football HOF, his accomplishments speak for themselves...See Warren Moon.

Warrnen was a star in Canada.Doug was a star in Canada.

That's where any comparison stops. Moon was also a star in the NFL and set many franchise and some NFL records. Doug made a drop-kick in a meaningless game. Flutie should be in the HoF the year after Pringle gets in the HoF. Which will be never.

Flutie was blackballed for playing as a replacement player during the strike or he would have gotten a better chance at playing in the NFL when he was near his prime. If he had played then he would have put up HOF numbers in the NFL. Back then their was also a big stink about his height that got in the way of him playing. Nobody wanted to give him a chance and look bad if he didnt produce becasue ofmn his height...dumb..he is a winner of major leagur proportions.

 

[DonnyT33]

if there was a hall of overrated egotistical midget QBs with weak arms who trash their teammate and only care about self promotion above all else, then I'd definitely vote Flutie in on the first ballot.

you got the wrong guy or have a misguided opinion of Flutie. I doubt you would find many who would ever talk about him like this. he has much more respect than you think Aaron. If you want like winners or want to win Flutie is the guy if you are a loser and like to lose then maybe not. I cant imagine how yo came up with this nonsense..but I'll tell you for fact its total BS NONSESNE.

 

[DonnyT33]

if there was a hall of overrated egotistical midget QBs with weak arms who trash their teammate and only care about self promotion above all else, then I'd definitely vote Flutie in on the first ballot.

I would side with Flutie over Rob Johnson in their spat. I think Flutie's reputation as a team player who got along with all his teammates everywhere besides Buffalo bears that out.(It was funny when he came to San Diego how many comments I saw on this message board worrying that there's no way Flutie would get along with Brees if Brees ever became the starter. The opposite was true. They were best friends, and Flutie had no problem playing behind someone he respected.)

he was a team cancer in Buffalo and I will always hate him for it.he explained it away by saying it was because he didn't like or respect Rob Johnson, but I don't think that excuses what he did.

Rob Johnson was a puke who could not play and folded at the sight of a DL from 10 yards away..and Flutie knew it and also knew the team he was on would suck becasue he was playing and not him..wake up Aaron...again MISGUIDED opinions are sickening. Find out how a guy like Moulds thinks of Flutie Aaron and we can puu up his opinion vs yours..

 

[Tau837]

Whomever voted Yes should be stoned to death.

get a clue what your talking about before you post here kid. It's thje FOOTBALL HOF not the NFL HOF..see Warren Moon. The old AFL guys should not have ever gotten in either, right. Nobody has thrown for more yards in pro football than Flutie. Dopes like this ruin these boards...

Maybe you should actually read the thread before you come in and tell others to get a clue. This has been covered thoroughly. Warren Moon deserved HOF induction based solely on his NFL accomplishments. There is no player in the HOF who did not dominate in the NFL or AFL. You're the one that needs to get a clue what you're talking about.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

if there was a hall of overrated egotistical midget QBs with weak arms who trash their teammate and only care about self promotion above all else, then I'd definitely vote Flutie in on the first ballot.

you got the wrong guy or have a misguided opinion of Flutie. I doubt you would find many who would ever talk about him like this. he has much more respect than you think Aaron. If you want like winners or want to win Flutie is the guy if you are a loser and like to lose then maybe not. I cant imagine how yo came up with this nonsense..but I'll tell you for fact its total BS NONSESNE.

Donny, it happened.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

if there was a hall of overrated egotistical midget QBs with weak arms who trash their teammate and only care about self promotion above all else, then I'd definitely vote Flutie in on the first ballot.

I would side with Flutie over Rob Johnson in their spat. I think Flutie's reputation as a team player who got along with all his teammates everywhere besides Buffalo bears that out.(It was funny when he came to San Diego how many comments I saw on this message board worrying that there's no way Flutie would get along with Brees if Brees ever became the starter. The opposite was true. They were best friends, and Flutie had no problem playing behind someone he respected.)

he was a team cancer in Buffalo and I will always hate him for it.he explained it away by saying it was because he didn't like or respect Rob Johnson, but I don't think that excuses what he did.

Rob Johnson was a puke who could not play and folded at the sight of a DL from 10 yards away..and Flutie knew it and also knew the team he was on would suck becasue he was playing and not him..wake up Aaron...again MISGUIDED opinions are sickening. Find out how a guy like Moulds thinks of Flutie Aaron and we can puu up his opinion vs yours..

Donny, you're wrong. again.

 

[Wadsworth]

if there was a hall of overrated egotistical midget QBs with weak arms who trash their teammate and only care about self promotion above all else, then I'd definitely vote Flutie in on the first ballot.

you got the wrong guy or have a misguided opinion of Flutie. I doubt you would find many who would ever talk about him like this. he has much more respect than you think Aaron. If you want like winners or want to win Flutie is the guy if you are a loser and like to lose then maybe not. I cant imagine how yo came up with this nonsense..but I'll tell you for fact its total BS NONSESNE.

Help me out here because it's been a while.Before his most recent time with the Pats, was or was not Flutie involved in a QB controversy at every stop of his NFL career?

In which cases did he put the team first and in which cases did he only worry about getting his own playing time?

Didn't he answer a reporter that questioned his play with, "I believe I'm currently voted a Pro Bowl QB" (or something close to that). What would the reaction have been to that if Mike Vick made the same statement?

When I think of Flutie's NFL career this is what I remember. That everywhere he went drama and strife followed him. He'd win a few games, get some fans behind him, and try and power play the team into making him the longterm starter in spite of the fact that he just wasn't that good. I do not remember him as a "winner" that never got a shot. I remember him as a guy that got numerous chances and never had the play to make it. I also remember him as a little TO that was much slicker when dealing with the media. I think Aaron nailed it; "overrated egotistical midget QB with a weak arm who trashes his teammates". Except I would add "but was slick enough with the media to fool some fans that were suckers for a feel good story."

 

[Pipes]

Whomever voted Yes should be stoned to death.

get a clue what your talking about before you post here kid. It's thje FOOTBALL HOF not the NFL HOF..see Warren Moon. The old AFL guys should not have ever gotten in either, right. Nobody has thrown for more yards in pro football than Flutie. Dopes like this ruin these boards...

Maybe you should actually read the thread before you come in and tell others to get a clue. This has been covered thoroughly. Warren Moon deserved HOF induction based solely on his NFL accomplishments. There is no player in the HOF who did not dominate in the NFL or AFL. You're the one that needs to get a clue what you're talking about.

So Flutie dominated against inferior competition and people think he deserves to go to Canton? The CFL is minor league football at best.

 

[Bri]

There is no player in the HOF who did not dominate in the NFL or AFL.  You're the one that needs to get a clue what you're talking about.

Jim Thorpe. American Pro Football Association

 

[T Man]

Whomever voted Yes should be stoned to death.

get a clue what your talking about before you post here kid. It's thje FOOTBALL HOF not the NFL HOF..see Warren Moon. The old AFL guys should not have ever gotten in either, right. Nobody has thrown for more yards in pro football than Flutie. Dopes like this ruin these boards...

Maybe you should actually read the thread before you come in and tell others to get a clue. This has been covered thoroughly. Warren Moon deserved HOF induction based solely on his NFL accomplishments. There is no player in the HOF who did not dominate in the NFL or AFL. You're the one that needs to get a clue what you're talking about.

So Flutie dominated against inferior competition and people think he deserves to go to Canton? The CFL is minor league football at best.

IT really is quite simple. If Flutie gets in, Canton will have to open the doors for all of the other great CFL players. I just don't see it happening. There are too many great NFL players still trying to get in. And, if the CFL is counted ,you can add on top of that the few who really excelled in the USFL, the Arena Leagues, and NFLE -- they are all pro football teams.

I understand Flutie has charisma, and to some fans he was wonderful, but I just don't see it.

As for Flutie's stops in the NFL:

Chicago -- weak

Buffalo -- pretty good for a couple of years -- but a problem in the locker room (yes he caused the turmoil - although you could argue Johnson's performance .

San Diego -- ok, but nothing special -- I don't recall too much problems with Brees, but I am sure there were some.

New England -- backup

What exactly warrants the Hall of Fame from the performances here?

 

[H.K.]

YES!!!!

:formernewjerseygeneralfanatic:

 

[Rubi]

There is no player in the HOF who did not dominate in the NFL or AFL.  You're the one that needs to get a clue what you're talking about.

Jim Thorpe. American Pro Football Association

Flutie will be in the PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAME for his ".....contributions to the sport of PROFESSIONAL footbal".

 

[Tau837]

There is no player in the HOF who did not dominate in the NFL or AFL.  You're the one that needs to get a clue what you're talking about.

Jim Thorpe. American Pro Football Association

Perhaps you aren't aware that the American Pro Football Association was later renamed to the NFL.From NFL History:

October 3

1920 -- The Dayton Triangles beat the Columbus Panhandles 14-0 and the Rock Island Independents rout the Muncie Flyers 45-0 in the first ever games between NFL (then American Pro Football Association) clubs.

Try again.

 

[Bri]

There is no player in the HOF who did not dominate in the NFL or AFL.  You're the one that needs to get a clue what you're talking about.

Jim Thorpe. American Pro Football Association

Perhaps you aren't aware that the American Pro Football Association was later renamed to the NFL.

I am and it still defies your statement above.

 

[Christo]

There is no player in the HOF who did not dominate in the NFL or AFL.  You're the one that needs to get a clue what you're talking about.

Jim Thorpe. American Pro Football Association

Perhaps you aren't aware that the American Pro Football Association was later renamed to the NFL.

I am and it still defies your statement above.

It does?

 

[Tau837]

There is no player in the HOF who did not dominate in the NFL or AFL.  You're the one that needs to get a clue what you're talking about.

Jim Thorpe. American Pro Football Association

Perhaps you aren't aware that the American Pro Football Association was later renamed to the NFL.

I am and it still defies your statement above.

Dude, APFA became NFL. Thus APFA = NFL. Thus, any player who excelled in APFA excelled in the NFL, since it is the same league.Your claim does not refute the intent of my statement, it merely refutes the letter of what was written. Are you an attorney?

But if it makes you happy for me to refine my statement, try to refute this: in the NFL that did not excel in NFL or in any league that was not an ancestor of the NFL or merged with the NFL. Examples that would refute this statement would come from completely independent leagues, such as CFL, USFL, and the Arena League.

 

[piston pete griffin]

Is there anybody in the HOF now who is there soley based upon his CFL numbers? I can't think if anybody? That would make Flutie a 1st if he made it in, which I don't think he will.

 

[Michael Fox Fan]

Remember,it's THE PRO FOOTBALL HALE OF FAME,not just the NFL hall of fame,based on that Flutie is absolutely a PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAMER.

What they play in Canada is not football; it's Canadian Football. Just like in Australia they play Australian-rules Football, and in arenas they play Arena Football. Players from those leagues belong in the Hall of Fame in Canton no more than David Beckham does (you know, he plays "football" too).

Ever been to the PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAME? You might be surprised at who's in there.

With the exception of Billy Shaw (AFL), everyone in Canton made their major contribution to "football" (however you define it) in the NFL.

There's an entire section in the HALL devouted to players who played PRO FOOTBALL from 1892-1919. The NFL was founded in 1920. Did you know Larry Csonka is listed in the PRO FOOTBALL Hall of Fame under the WFL? Interesting.

Why is this so tough for everyone to understand?The merged NFL couldn't call it the NFL Hall of Fame --- obviously the old AFL teams would have been bothered by such a name.

So the simple solution was to call if the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Who would have ever expected some lame amateurish league called the CFL to produce a single NFL player?

Read back through the entire thread. Look closely at the Warren Moon Hall of Fame announcement. See the obvious attempt to play politics -- by mentioning his CFL accomplishments, while at the same time downplaying them (by not including his season-by-season stats, for example). The NFL is just trying to be polite by not alienating the CFL.

Doesn't this seem obvious to everyone? Well, I guess not to about 15-20% of those who voted....

 

[mcjc4]

He'll go into the CFL HOF, its where he belongs and thats the end of discussion. Say what you want about Canton being the Profootball, not the NFL HOF, bla,bla,bla. Name 1 player in the past 30 years that was inducted for anything other than being an NFL or AFL star? It is was it is, the NFL HOF with the wrong title on the front of the building.

 

[Rubi]

Is there anybody in the HOF now who is there soley based upon his CFL numbers? I can't think if anybody? That would make Flutie a 1st if he made it in, which I don't think he will.

Someone has to be "first".Jackie Robinson was a "first",Jim Thorpe was a "first",James Harris was a "first".

Doug Flutie will be a "first"

 

[Bizkiteer]

At the time of posting, this shows that 87 people need to be taken out back and hit over the head. He's nothing worthy of even being considered for the HOF. Maybe Colllege HOF or BC's (if they have one). I was really surprised to see that many actually think he worthy. Maybe they are all BC Alum...

 

[Michael Fox Fan]

Is there anybody in the HOF now who is there soley based upon his CFL numbers? I can't think if anybody? That would make Flutie a 1st if he made it in, which I don't think he will.

Someone has to be "first".Jackie Robinson was a "first"

Wait, so you're comparing this to racial discrimination?!?!

 

[Rubi]

Remember,it's THE PRO FOOTBALL HALE OF FAME,not just the NFL hall of fame,based on that Flutie is absolutely a PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAMER.

What they play in Canada is not football; it's Canadian Football. Just like in Australia they play Australian-rules Football, and in arenas they play Arena Football. Players from those leagues belong in the Hall of Fame in Canton no more than David Beckham does (you know, he plays "football" too).

Ever been to the PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAME? You might be surprised at who's in there.

With the exception of Billy Shaw (AFL), everyone in Canton made their major contribution to "football" (however you define it) in the NFL.

There's an entire section in the HALL devouted to players who played PRO FOOTBALL from 1892-1919. The NFL was founded in 1920. Did you know Larry Csonka is listed in the PRO FOOTBALL Hall of Fame under the WFL? Interesting.

Why is this so tough for everyone to understand?The merged NFL couldn't call it the NFL Hall of Fame --- obviously the old AFL teams would have been bothered by such a name.

So the simple solution was to call if the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Who would have ever expected some lame amateurish league called the CFL to produce a single NFL player?

Read back through the entire thread. Look closely at the Warren Moon Hall of Fame announcement. See the obvious attempt to play politics -- by mentioning his CFL accomplishments, while at the same time downplaying them (by not including his season-by-season stats, for example). The NFL is just trying to be polite by not alienating the CFL.

Doesn't this seem obvious to everyone? Well, I guess not to about 15-20% of those who voted....

The merger was in 1970. The Pro Football Hall of Fame was founded in 1963,seven years earlier.

 

[Wadsworth]

Is there anybody in the HOF now who is there soley based upon his CFL numbers? I can't think if anybody? That would make Flutie a 1st if he made it in, which I don't think he will.

Someone has to be "first".Jackie Robinson was a "first",Jim Thorpe was a "first",James Harris was a "first".

Doug Flutie will be a "first"

Why does someone have to be the first? Does there have to be a first Arena League player in Canton?And to compare Doug Flutie to Jackie Robinson and Shack Harris is a joke and insulting.

 

[T Man]

Remember,it's THE PRO FOOTBALL HALE OF FAME,not just the NFL hall of fame,based on that Flutie is absolutely a PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAMER.

What they play in Canada is not football; it's Canadian Football. Just like in Australia they play Australian-rules Football, and in arenas they play Arena Football. Players from those leagues belong in the Hall of Fame in Canton no more than David Beckham does (you know, he plays "football" too).

Ever been to the PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAME? You might be surprised at who's in there.

With the exception of Billy Shaw (AFL), everyone in Canton made their major contribution to "football" (however you define it) in the NFL.

There's an entire section in the HALL devouted to players who played PRO FOOTBALL from 1892-1919. The NFL was founded in 1920. Did you know Larry Csonka is listed in the PRO FOOTBALL Hall of Fame under the WFL? Interesting.

Why is this so tough for everyone to understand?The merged NFL couldn't call it the NFL Hall of Fame --- obviously the old AFL teams would have been bothered by such a name.

So the simple solution was to call if the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Who would have ever expected some lame amateurish league called the CFL to produce a single NFL player?

Read back through the entire thread. Look closely at the Warren Moon Hall of Fame announcement. See the obvious attempt to play politics -- by mentioning his CFL accomplishments, while at the same time downplaying them (by not including his season-by-season stats, for example). The NFL is just trying to be polite by not alienating the CFL.

Doesn't this seem obvious to everyone? Well, I guess not to about 15-20% of those who voted....

Not a question that Flutie is inducted into the Canadian Football Hall of Fame. He along with many others deserve it. But the Pro Football Hall of Fame is a different story.And for those suggestiong that Csonka made it in as a WFL player - you are just plain wrong. Sure the HOF mentions other leagues and the great players from that league (such as the USFL), but the players they mention were inducted into the HOF based upon their greatness in the NFL - or its predecessors.

Csonka's 1 1/2 years in Memphis did nothing to get him in the HOF.

 

[Rubi]

Is there anybody in the HOF now who is there soley based upon his CFL numbers? I can't think if anybody? That would make Flutie a 1st if he made it in, which I don't think he will.

Someone has to be "first".Jackie Robinson was a "first"

Wait, so you're comparing this to racial discrimination?!?!

Get a grip dude,the comparision was to someone being the "first" to do something,the poster said Flutie would be the "first" to get in based largely on CFL #'s. I merely stated someone is always "first" at something.

 

[CalBear]

Get a grip dude,the comparision was to someone being the "first" to do something,the poster said Flutie would be the "first" to get in based largely on CFL #'s. I merely stated someone is always "first" at something.

It's true, there are no mediocre-to-bad QBs in the Hall of Fame, and Flutie would be the first.

 

[Michael Fox Fan]

Is there anybody in the HOF now who is there soley based upon his CFL numbers? I can't think if anybody? That would make Flutie a 1st if he made it in, which I don't think he will.

Someone has to be "first".Jackie Robinson was a "first"

Wait, so you're comparing this to racial discrimination?!?!

Get a grip dude,the comparision was to someone being the "first" to do something,the poster said Flutie would be the "first" to get in based largely on CFL #'s. I merely stated someone is always "first" at something.

Oh, I've got a grip "dude". You just used a really poor comparison - not even in the same ballpark.

 

[Michael Fox Fan]

Remember,it's THE PRO FOOTBALL HALE OF FAME,not just the NFL hall of fame,based on that Flutie is absolutely a PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAMER.

What they play in Canada is not football; it's Canadian Football. Just like in Australia they play Australian-rules Football, and in arenas they play Arena Football. Players from those leagues belong in the Hall of Fame in Canton no more than David Beckham does (you know, he plays "football" too).

Ever been to the PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAME? You might be surprised at who's in there.

With the exception of Billy Shaw (AFL), everyone in Canton made their major contribution to "football" (however you define it) in the NFL.

There's an entire section in the HALL devouted to players who played PRO FOOTBALL from 1892-1919. The NFL was founded in 1920. Did you know Larry Csonka is listed in the PRO FOOTBALL Hall of Fame under the WFL? Interesting.

Why is this so tough for everyone to understand?The merged NFL couldn't call it the NFL Hall of Fame --- obviously the old AFL teams would have been bothered by such a name.

So the simple solution was to call if the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Who would have ever expected some lame amateurish league called the CFL to produce a single NFL player?

Read back through the entire thread. Look closely at the Warren Moon Hall of Fame announcement. See the obvious attempt to play politics -- by mentioning his CFL accomplishments, while at the same time downplaying them (by not including his season-by-season stats, for example). The NFL is just trying to be polite by not alienating the CFL.

Doesn't this seem obvious to everyone? Well, I guess not to about 15-20% of those who voted....

The merger was in 1970. The Pro Football Hall of Fame was founded in 1963,seven years earlier.

Football wasn't exactly a global game back in 1963. It's irrelevant when the HOF was established. Even if the NFL WANTED to change the name to NFL HOF, the old AFL owners would have never allowed that post-1970. It would be politically impossible. That's why, to this day, the name likely remains Pro Football HOF. Only Peter King thinks it has anything to do with the CFL, and he's an idiot.

 

[Bri]

There is no player in the HOF who did not dominate in the NFL or AFL.  You're the one that needs to get a clue what you're talking about.

Jim Thorpe. American Pro Football Association

Perhaps you aren't aware that the American Pro Football Association was later renamed to the NFL.

I am and it still defies your statement above.

Dude, APFA became NFL. Thus APFA = NFL. Thus, any player who excelled in APFA excelled in the NFL, since it is the same league.Your claim does not refute the intent of my statement, it merely refutes the letter of what was written. Are you an attorney?

But if it makes you happy for me to refine my statement, try to refute this: in the NFL that did not excel in NFL or in any league that was not an ancestor of the NFL or merged with the NFL. Examples that would refute this statement would come from completely independent leagues, such as CFL, USFL, and the Arena League.

We could debate the letters or history whichever you want. The letters is obvious.Your intent was to call someone clueless by mentioning 5 leagues, the AFL and NFL. By 5 I mean AFL=4, NFL=1. You listed AFL or NFL originally. AFL has been the name of 4 different leagues. I would imagine you meant the one from 1960-1969 but you didn't specify. From 1926 til 1941 there were 3 different leagues named AFL.

You single out 5 leagues and so I named another.

The AFL and NFL were failed businesses that with new "backing" would try and start again planning that someday the country would fully embrace the sport. Congress or Roosevelt tried to make football a crime once upon a time because of the deaths in the game. Thorpe was a native american or indian. His Carlisle Indians beat almost all(if not all) the major colleges of their day. American's lesser thoughts on Indians or African Americans at that time are well documented and this Indian team whipping the colleges wasn't such a positive thing in this country. Congress tries to make it a crime+ an indian team whipping our best....it doesn't exactly lend to something the public is going to support. To call the AFPA the NFL isn't accurate. It would be as if someone buys the XFL name from McMahon and so you consider this new XFL league a continuation.

Also the AAFC existed in the 40s and two NFL teams are from there as well, so there's another league.

Further in reply to your USFL, CFL, Arena comment:

Every single time the NFL merged with another league the merger was unexpected and "would never happen" according to public opinion. USFL is called a merger if you google it you'll find articles calling it that. I would say it was a supplemental draft that merged players into the NFL but...it is called that. The 1960-69 AFL was considerred a lesser league and people said that league was inferior to the NFL til Namath won his Supe. I'm not saying the CFL will ever merge with the NFL or the Arena league will. Repeat, I'm not saying it will ever merge. If it did, however, we would not see it coming as evidenced by history of the sport.

 

[Rubi]

Get a grip dude,the comparision was to someone being the "first" to do something,the poster said Flutie would be the "first" to get in based largely on CFL #'s. I merely stated someone is always "first" at something.

It's true, there are no mediocre-to-bad QBs in the Hall of Fame, and Flutie would be the first.

I give you Dutch Clark,quarterback,inducted in 1963,an original member of the Hall of Fame. Career Stats in 8 yearsassing:114-250

1507 yds

Compl. % 45.6

10 TD's

26 INT's

QB Rating-39.0

Rushing:

606 attempts

2772 yds

27 TD's

Elected to the first "class" of THE PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAME for his......"contributions to the game of professional football"

 

[Bri]

Remember,it's THE PRO FOOTBALL HALE OF FAME,not just the NFL hall of fame,based on that Flutie is absolutely a PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAMER.

What they play in Canada is not football; it's Canadian Football. Just like in Australia they play Australian-rules Football, and in arenas they play Arena Football. Players from those leagues belong in the Hall of Fame in Canton no more than David Beckham does (you know, he plays "football" too).

Ever been to the PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAME? You might be surprised at who's in there.

With the exception of Billy Shaw (AFL), everyone in Canton made their major contribution to "football" (however you define it) in the NFL.

There's an entire section in the HALL devouted to players who played PRO FOOTBALL from 1892-1919. The NFL was founded in 1920. Did you know Larry Csonka is listed in the PRO FOOTBALL Hall of Fame under the WFL? Interesting.

It wasn't a pro league until 1910-1912 or somewhere in that ballpark and was managed by the intercollegiate association.

 

[Wadsworth]

Get a grip dude,the comparision was to someone being the "first" to do something,the poster said Flutie would be the "first" to get in based largely on CFL #'s. I merely stated someone is always "first" at something.

It's true, there are no mediocre-to-bad QBs in the Hall of Fame, and Flutie would be the first.

I give you Dutch Clark,quarterback,inducted in 1963,an original member of the Hall of Fame. Career Stats in 8 yearsassing:114-250

1507 yds

Compl. % 45.6

10 TD's

26 INT's

QB Rating-39.0

Rushing:

606 attempts

2772 yds

27 TD's

Elected to the first "class" of THE PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAME for his......"contributions to the game of professional football"

Try againutch Clark’s story doesn’t fit the ordinary picture of an all-time great. In 1929, he became the first Colorado College football star to be named All-America, yet he didn’t play pro football until almost two years after he graduated, when he joined the Portsmouth Spartans for the 1931 season.

He retired from the pro game after two All-Pro seasons to become head coach at the tiny Colorado School of Mines. However, Clark returned to pro football in 1934 rejoining his team, which by then had been sold and had become the Detroit Lions. For the next five years, Clark, from his tailback position, was the general in Detroit's famed infantry attack that in 1936 set a team rushing record that stood for 36 years.

He was called the quarterback because he called the plays. A true triple-threat back, Dutch consistently finished among the leaders in rushing and once completed 53.5 percent of his passes in a season when the league average was just 36.5 percent. He also led the league in scoring three times, kicked field goals and extra points and, is generally considered the last of the great drop kickers.

The versatile Clark was All-NFL six of the seven seasons he played. Although a great athlete, Dutch was not particularly fast and had such poor eyesight he had trouble seeing his receivers. According to teammates, though, he had the uncanny knack of being in the right place at the right time. Furthermore his teammates swore that no one could follow blockers as well as Dutch.

Humble, Clark was always conscious of his role as team leader. So unassuming, he sometimes avoided calling plays directed his way for fear of hogging the limelight. “If Dutch stepped on the field with Red Grange, Jim Thorpe, and George Gipp,” a rival coach once said, “Dutch would be the general.”

LINK

 

[Bri]

Nice post Wadsworth.

That statement about him not being able to see his receivers I've always found mind boggling. That article calls him a tailback that called plays and it's always been a little confusing, the development of the QB position. Was he truly a tailback in today's sense? My guess would be no, he was more of a college option type QB if I had to characterize from what I've read.

 

[Rubi]

Get a grip dude,the comparision was to someone being the "first" to do something,the poster said Flutie would be the "first" to get in based largely on CFL #'s. I merely stated someone is always "first" at something.

It's true, there are no mediocre-to-bad QBs in the Hall of Fame, and Flutie would be the first.

I give you Dutch Clark,quarterback,inducted in 1963,an original member of the Hall of Fame. Career Stats in 8 yearsassing:114-250

1507 yds

Compl. % 45.6

10 TD's

26 INT's

QB Rating-39.0

Rushing:

606 attempts

2772 yds

27 TD's

Elected to the first "class" of THE PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAME for his......"contributions to the game of professional football"

Try againutch Clark’s story doesn’t fit the ordinary picture of an all-time great. In 1929, he became the first Colorado College football star to be named All-America, yet he didn’t play pro football until almost two years after he graduated, when he joined the Portsmouth Spartans for the 1931 season.

He retired from the pro game after two All-Pro seasons to become head coach at the tiny Colorado School of Mines. However, Clark returned to pro football in 1934 rejoining his team, which by then had been sold and had become the Detroit Lions. For the next five years, Clark, from his tailback position, was the general in Detroit's famed infantry attack that in 1936 set a team rushing record that stood for 36 years.

He was called the quarterback because he called the plays. A true triple-threat back, Dutch consistently finished among the leaders in rushing and once completed 53.5 percent of his passes in a season when the league average was just 36.5 percent. He also led the league in scoring three times, kicked field goals and extra points and, is generally considered the last of the great drop kickers.

The versatile Clark was All-NFL six of the seven seasons he played. Although a great athlete, Dutch was not particularly fast and had such poor eyesight he had trouble seeing his receivers. According to teammates, though, he had the uncanny knack of being in the right place at the right time. Furthermore his teammates swore that no one could follow blockers as well as Dutch.

Humble, Clark was always conscious of his role as team leader. So unassuming, he sometimes avoided calling plays directed his way for fear of hogging the limelight. “If Dutch stepped on the field with Red Grange, Jim Thorpe, and George Gipp,” a rival coach once said, “Dutch would be the general.”

LINK

he sounds a lot like flutie

 

[Wadsworth]

Get a grip dude,the comparision was to someone being the "first" to do something,the poster said Flutie would be the "first" to get in based largely on CFL #'s. I merely stated someone is always "first" at something.

It's true, there are no mediocre-to-bad QBs in the Hall of Fame, and Flutie would be the first.

I give you Dutch Clark,quarterback,inducted in 1963,an original member of the Hall of Fame. Career Stats in 8 yearsassing:114-250

1507 yds

Compl. % 45.6

10 TD's

26 INT's

QB Rating-39.0

Rushing:

606 attempts

2772 yds

27 TD's

Elected to the first "class" of THE PRO FOOTBALL HALL OF FAME for his......"contributions to the game of professional football"

Try againutch Clark’s story doesn’t fit the ordinary picture of an all-time great. In 1929, he became the first Colorado College football star to be named All-America, yet he didn’t play pro football until almost two years after he graduated, when he joined the Portsmouth Spartans for the 1931 season.

He retired from the pro game after two All-Pro seasons to become head coach at the tiny Colorado School of Mines. However, Clark returned to pro football in 1934 rejoining his team, which by then had been sold and had become the Detroit Lions. For the next five years, Clark, from his tailback position, was the general in Detroit's famed infantry attack that in 1936 set a team rushing record that stood for 36 years.

He was called the quarterback because he called the plays. A true triple-threat back, Dutch consistently finished among the leaders in rushing and once completed 53.5 percent of his passes in a season when the league average was just 36.5 percent. He also led the league in scoring three times, kicked field goals and extra points and, is generally considered the last of the great drop kickers.

The versatile Clark was All-NFL six of the seven seasons he played. Although a great athlete, Dutch was not particularly fast and had such poor eyesight he had trouble seeing his receivers. According to teammates, though, he had the uncanny knack of being in the right place at the right time. Furthermore his teammates swore that no one could follow blockers as well as Dutch.

Humble, Clark was always conscious of his role as team leader. So unassuming, he sometimes avoided calling plays directed his way for fear of hogging the limelight. “If Dutch stepped on the field with Red Grange, Jim Thorpe, and George Gipp,” a rival coach once said, “Dutch would be the general.”

LINK

he sounds a lot like flutie

Yes in terms of style. But Clark was actually good. How many times did Flutie lead the league in anything? Clark led the league in scoring 3 times, was All-NFL 6 out of 7 years. The only thing Flutie every led the league in was career QB controveries and drop kicks in the modern era.

 

[Rubi]

We could go 'round and 'round about Flutie's merits as a HOF. I believe he'll get in based on more than just hard #'s. Time will tell whether he does or does not get in. If he never makes it I'll admit I was wrong about him,if he does I hope those that seem to not to want him in will respond with something better than "I CAN'T BELIEVE THEY PUT HIM IN THE HALL!" 'Till then,I'm heading out to start my weekend!

 

[Tau837]

We could debate the letters or history whichever you want. The letters is obvious.

Your intent was to call someone clueless by mentioning 5 leagues, the AFL and NFL. By 5 I mean AFL=4, NFL=1. You listed AFL or NFL originally. AFL has been the name of 4 different leagues. I would imagine you meant the one from 1960-1969 but you didn't specify. From 1926 til 1941 there were 3 different leagues named AFL.

You single out 5 leagues and so I named another.

The AFL and NFL were failed businesses that with new "backing" would try and start again planning that someday the country would fully embrace the sport. Congress or Roosevelt tried to make football a crime once upon a time because of the deaths in the game. Thorpe was a native american or indian. His Carlisle Indians beat almost all(if not all) the major colleges of their day. American's lesser thoughts on Indians or African Americans at that time are well documented and this Indian team whipping the colleges wasn't such a positive thing in this country. Congress tries to make it a crime+ an indian team whipping our best....it doesn't exactly lend to something the public is going to support. To call the AFPA the NFL isn't accurate. It would be as if someone buys the XFL name from McMahon and so you consider this new XFL league a continuation.

Also the AAFC existed in the 40s and two NFL teams are from there as well, so there's another league.

Further in reply to your USFL, CFL, Arena comment:

Every single time the NFL merged with another league the merger was unexpected and "would never happen" according to public opinion. USFL is called a merger if you google it you'll find articles calling it that. I would say it was a supplemental draft that merged players into the NFL but...it is called that. The 1960-69 AFL was considerred a lesser league and people said that league was inferior to the NFL til Namath won his Supe. I'm not saying the CFL will ever merge with the NFL or the Arena league will. Repeat, I'm not saying it will ever merge. If it did, however, we would not see it coming as evidenced by history of the sport.

If there were NFL teams that played at the same time as AAFC teams, that's fine. At a later date, they all merged into one league. All were part of the lineage of what is today's NFL. Players from that lineage are and should be in the HOF. My intent was not to dispute that. My view is that no one is in the HOF that did not excel in the NFL or in any other league that is part of that NFL lineage.Yes, Moon was a CFL star, but he was inducted due to his NFL accomplishments. Yes, Jim Kelly was a USFL star, but he was inducted due to his NFL accomplishments. I don't think he will be inducted, but if Kurt Warner were to be inducted into the HOF, it would be due to his NFL accomplishments, not due to his Arena league accomplishments.

You are correct that I do not believe the CFL or Arena League will ever merge with the NFL. If the CFL did merge with the NFL, I think that could open the door for some players to be inducted that were CFL stars and not NFL stars, especially for a crossover player like Flutie who spent many years in the NFL. However, I think there is absolutely zero chance of that happening, and there is no other way he is getting in.

 

[Bri]

Yes, Moon was a CFL star, but he was inducted due to his NFL accomplishments. Yes, Jim Kelly was a USFL star, but he was inducted due to his NFL accomplishments.

The Hall states both leagues accomplishments it does not distinguish. People in this thread can't get over this I guess.

 

[Bri]

We could debate the letters or history whichever you want. The letters is obvious.

Your intent was to call someone clueless by mentioning 5 leagues, the AFL and NFL. By 5 I mean AFL=4, NFL=1. You listed AFL or NFL originally. AFL has been the name of 4 different leagues. I would imagine you meant the one from 1960-1969 but you didn't specify. From 1926 til 1941 there were 3 different leagues named AFL.

You single out 5 leagues and so I named another.

The AFL and NFL were failed businesses that with new "backing" would try and start again planning that someday the country would fully embrace the sport. Congress or Roosevelt tried to make football a crime once upon a time because of the deaths in the game. Thorpe was a native american or indian. His Carlisle Indians beat almost all(if not all) the major colleges of their day. American's lesser thoughts on Indians or African Americans at that time are well documented and this Indian team whipping the colleges wasn't such a positive thing in this country. Congress tries to make it a crime+ an indian team whipping our best....it doesn't exactly lend to something the public is going to support. To call the AFPA the NFL isn't accurate. It would be as if someone buys the XFL name from McMahon and so you consider this new XFL league a continuation.

Also the AAFC existed in the 40s and two NFL teams are from there as well, so there's another league.

Further in reply to your USFL, CFL, Arena comment:

Every single time the NFL merged with another league the merger was unexpected and "would never happen" according to public opinion. USFL is called a merger if you google it you'll find articles calling it that. I would say it was a supplemental draft that merged players into the NFL but...it is called that. The 1960-69 AFL was considerred a lesser league and people said that league was inferior to the NFL til Namath won his Supe. I'm not saying the CFL will ever merge with the NFL or the Arena league will. Repeat, I'm not saying it will ever merge. If it did, however, we would not see it coming as evidenced by history of the sport.

If there were NFL teams that played at the same time as AAFC teams, that's fine. At a later date, they all merged into one league. All were part of the lineage of what is today's NFL. Players from that lineage are and should be in the HOF. My intent was not to dispute that. My view is that no one is in the HOF that did not excel in the NFL or in any other league that is part of that NFL lineage.

But your statements are somewhat contradictory in that the CFL and Arena game are from the "american football" lineage. Surely you agree they're hardly original as a game but just original or different in their rule changes or field length.Only in America and Canada is "football" known as "american football". As you know, in the rest of the world it's soccer.

They play "american football" in american samoan, china, japan, australia, and "europe" (which in the NFLE is primarily Germany). If these leagues have a great player and their is a ballot written into the hall they WILL consider it. It's how the process works.

Scott McCready is probably the best European player and easily the best European WR ever. I wouldn't doubt he'll get voted upon when he retires. He has been in TC with several NFL teams, made them, and left the team as he didn't want to be 5th or 6th WR and not play. I believe he was also cut as he let them know it was "play or else" and they didn't care for that attitude....anyhow, brought him up for a reason.

I would agree that a CFLer to make the ProfootballHOF is very hard and that there is an obvious predominance of NFL influence in the voting process. (Not that they won't be considerred or won't make it in) Now take NFLE and how the NFL would lllllllllllllove for this league to be more popular and truly make their league a worldwide league. Can the NFL influence the voters to actually vote him in? THAT would be a very interesting impasse IMO. Only once I saw jersey sales #s for NFLE and he dominated them and is regularly one of the top vote getters into their "all star" game. Would shunning his election hurt their efforts to make their league a worldwide league?