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Is it time for every penalty/call to be reviewed/reviewable? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter OrtonToOlsen
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DropKick
Footballguy
Absolutely. I was actually fine with sudden death. They've already changed the rule to avoid a win by a "cheap" score. You give up the TD you lose.Hov34 said:
Its a team game and KC had plenty of chances.
The college OT system would wreak havoc on Vegas and Fantasy Football for starters. Personally, I'm not a fan of giving teams a short field and making it offense centric. I like defense, field position and all facets of the game. Fine with the current rules.
DropKick
Footballguy
I can understand how a brief face mask gets missed. I can also understand the roughing call on Brady - that LOOKS like a hand banging the face mask in real time, especially if the official doesn't have the best angle.Anarchy99 said:
We all saw the receiver simply taken out by the Rams defender. Focal point of the play, in clear view, not a jumble of people... HOW can that call be missed? Lots of replay talk but that's just a distraction. Yes, replay could (in theory) reverse a bad call but that call should NEVER be missed. There has always been a tendency to leave the flag in the pocket, especially at the end of late season games. Is this just that taken to a horrible extreme?
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Insein
Footballguy
I'd like it if they just played a 15 min period. That would be football. Let up a TD because offense is your strength? Go back down and score it. Keep it rolling until we have a winner.
DropKick
Footballguy
Its an extraordinarily physical game. Keeping it rolling can have a heavy toll. One of the reasons they shortened regular season OT to 10 minutes.
Remember this gents?
https://www.panthers.com/news/controversial-penalty-thwarts-panthers-comeback-20215828
Maybe take some stock in Cam's thoughts...
“It doesn’t matter what I think, but I can tell you this: That game didn’t come down to that,” Newton said. “We could have a played better as a team. That game didn’t come down to just one call that could have went either way.”
DropKick
Footballguy
I don't think I could insist on the high road when the call is that egregious and the outcome so impacted.
Saints got their break last year and in the first match up this year. This call just evens things out.
Short answer: NO
Too many subjective calls are too subjective to even remotely consider opening them all up to review. Leaving most review to objective calls only is the only reasonable answer. We can't stop to review borderline PI calls just because they covered 40 yards. IE: There's no way to apply an "indisputable" criteria to the overwhelming majority of subjective calls.
THAT SAID: I would have no problem with a central oversight, experts in a box at playoff games or central location in season, that could stop the game for the most egregious misses....those subjective calls that were so egregious as to not really be subjective any more (like the Saints call).
Too many subjective calls are too subjective to even remotely consider opening them all up to review. Leaving most review to objective calls only is the only reasonable answer. We can't stop to review borderline PI calls just because they covered 40 yards. IE: There's no way to apply an "indisputable" criteria to the overwhelming majority of subjective calls.
THAT SAID: I would have no problem with a central oversight, experts in a box at playoff games or central location in season, that could stop the game for the most egregious misses....those subjective calls that were so egregious as to not really be subjective any more (like the Saints call).
I LOATHE the college OT rules. I like the current NFL setup. I appreciate the FG can't win it immediately change they made a few years ago, but see no reason to extend that to TDs also.Hov34 said:
An NFL team spends roughly half it's time playing defense. If a team can't make a single stop after a kickoff to give it's offense a chance to win...they probably don't deserve to win anyway. I wanted the Chiefs to win that game....their defense had at least 3 opportunities to stop NE on 3rd and 5 or longer....and failed.
ETA: I wouldn't be completely opposed to just playing an extra quarter entirely before sudden death goes into effect, but wouldn't want to use that for the whole season. Leave it alone for the regular season.
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Futeki
Footballguy
So you are saying you are ok with a ref calling a penalty when he knowingly DID NOT SEE a penalty, because there just mighy have been a penalty, but he couldn't tell because he didn't have the right angle?
The ref did not see a penalty. He GUESSED there was a penalty. If there was ever a time to not call a penalty...
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Junior McSpiffy
Footballguy
The answer to this problem is the easiest solution out there, but it seems nobody is mentioning it.
Stop having professional athletes officiated by lawyers and college professors. Make being an NFL official a full-time gig. Have them spend their off-season breaking down tape so they can get themselves in tune with what to look for on bang-bang plays, create more consistency on what they will or won't call as holding, more consistency for what they will or won't call on pass interference. We have high-stakes professional sports being officiated by part-time employees. The only league that does this.
Before we do any overhaul of rules or replay technology, let's do our best to get people on the field who are dedicated 100% to getting it right, not to people who know they have their hedge fund on the side to fall back on should this referee gig fall through.
Stop having professional athletes officiated by lawyers and college professors. Make being an NFL official a full-time gig. Have them spend their off-season breaking down tape so they can get themselves in tune with what to look for on bang-bang plays, create more consistency on what they will or won't call as holding, more consistency for what they will or won't call on pass interference. We have high-stakes professional sports being officiated by part-time employees. The only league that does this.
Before we do any overhaul of rules or replay technology, let's do our best to get people on the field who are dedicated 100% to getting it right, not to people who know they have their hedge fund on the side to fall back on should this referee gig fall through.
Insein
Footballguy
Keep regular season as is. Playoff time needs to be won on the field where both teams get to exhibit their best.
What scares me about this, is that the idiot coaches on most of our favorite teams would waste their “penalty challenge” on some 12-yard DPI in the 2nd quarter, and most of these game-ending egregious errors would still go unchallengeable...
Doug B
Footballguy
... not in the same ZIP code. Can’t see your point. To me, that’s grounding all day.
Of course you see it that way. And Sunday was just a close play where a couple of guys collided and they were letting them play football.
Doug B
Footballguy
NM ... “outside the tackle box” is the issue, correct? Not “eligible receiver in the area”?
Todem
Footballguy
Right there with you.
I wish they would simply just go back to the original system. Each coach get’s 2 challenges per half. Use one and lose the challenge you lose the second one. No challenges with under 2 minutes left. Only the booth can review at that point.
Done.
IMO replay has destroyed the NFL. Those of us who have been watching the NFL since the late 70’s remember a time when you had calls you talked about for years (like this blown DPI call which is unreviewable anyway and always has been), but at the same time.....the real time enjoyment of the game was always there. Sports are played on the field at real speed.
Today in the NFL (and NCAA to a lesser degree) it is played in a “Stop” “Rewind” “Replay” state of mind and it is garbage.
Funny thing is in Baseball replay is used perfectly and also the MLB umpires get it right 99.5% right. Don’t even get me started on the horror that is the NFL and officiating. It is comically bad at this point. And replay is a huge culprit.
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Todem
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Exactly. We are just doing to get more replay and more stoppages and more slow motion analysis. Enough IMO. Just do away with replay altogether. Sports aren't perfect. Refs aren't perfect and no attempts to make it so will ever work. They wll just suck more of the fun from the game.
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Doug B
Footballguy
IMHO, it's possible to reverse egregious calls without slowing down the game a whit. Egregious, now ... not every ticky-tack call.
Don't need perfect refs. Of perfect game-calling, for that matter. Very, very odd to me that people are lumping in the missed helmet-to-helmet/PI with "just another bad call". If a call that blatant is no big deal ... then what could a ref possibly do on the field to cast doubt on the outcome of a game? You want this stuff above reproach (not to day perfect) and it is possible to make it so.
The amount of gray area being cheerfully granted here ... in that gray area is where elements that would chip away at the game's foundations can operate freely. There's a clear opportunity now for those with bad intent. But it will never happen ... right?
Ilov80s
Footballguy
But it's not how it is used or will be used. More replay options=more replay. I hate that I watch a game and can't get excited about a big turnover or TD because I have to wait untill it's been confirmed through 10 slow motion replays and analyzed by a lawyer.
As a Lions fan I have seen it all for late game screwjobs from refs. I know how much it sucks as much as anyone. And replay never helped the Lions in any of those situations either. I hated the missed call by the refs but I don't want more replay to fix it. Players drop easy passes. Refs miss easy calls. Defenders miss easy tackles. It's just part of the game.
Jayrok
Footballguy
Review penalties? Heavens no. No more game stoppages, especially to review if some OT holds on a run play.
Some of the PI are close to call/see for a ref to get it right 100% of the time. Since those plays down field are game changing events, I wouldn't mind seeing them put two NFL officials in the booth that can immediately view the replay and simply signal down to the white hat ref with the proper call. No need for the ref to go and review the play. They call it from upstairs (not from NY) and get it right. The head ref makes the call by announcing the ruling and play continues. If there is no PI then he says "there is no foul for PI" and we press on.
In the case of the Saints/Rams missed PI, that could have been easily and quickly fixed by these officials in the booth. Bottom line is they want to get it right, yes? A quick review and signal to the head ref the call. But don't stop play to go in and review. Do it on the fly and press on. '
Heck, I wouldn't mind if they just did away with the back judge officials altogether. Just let the booth refs make those calls.
Some of the PI are close to call/see for a ref to get it right 100% of the time. Since those plays down field are game changing events, I wouldn't mind seeing them put two NFL officials in the booth that can immediately view the replay and simply signal down to the white hat ref with the proper call. No need for the ref to go and review the play. They call it from upstairs (not from NY) and get it right. The head ref makes the call by announcing the ruling and play continues. If there is no PI then he says "there is no foul for PI" and we press on.
In the case of the Saints/Rams missed PI, that could have been easily and quickly fixed by these officials in the booth. Bottom line is they want to get it right, yes? A quick review and signal to the head ref the call. But don't stop play to go in and review. Do it on the fly and press on. '
Heck, I wouldn't mind if they just did away with the back judge officials altogether. Just let the booth refs make those calls.
Doug B
Footballguy
Then players don't truly determine the outcomes of the contests. IMHO, getting the egregious calls corrected trumps every single other consideration -- game flow, broadcast time, excitement in the moment after a big play, you name it. Others' mileage will vary.
You don't need more replays, or more time taken on replays. Just more types of results to become reviewable. While I think booth-refereed games would be a superior product to the status quo, less-extreme solutions can still be huge improvements.
Doug B
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
There are Rams fans posting several screenshots of what look like clear missed penalities by the refs. I think it's wormhole that we don't need to jump into. It is a game and is supposed to be fun so I don't get think getting it right trumps excitement, game flow, etc.
Doug B
Footballguy
And? There are degrees to this stuff. People really think if a play like the Robey-Coleman foul is made reviewable, then the league MUST make missed finger-grazes on facemasks reviewable, too?
Ilov80s
Footballguy
There is a screenshot delay of game, is that reviewable? Was a big RZ play. There is another screen shot that looks like a Saints player is violently stomping a Ram. That could be reviewable. Yes I do think it is a blackhole. People will only want more and more replay. The history of replay in the NFL seems to support my view.
Doug B
Footballguy
You limit that by folding in penalty reviews with normal coaches' challenges. Leaves a mechanism to correct the egregious calls without the incentive to throw a red flag for a half-second jersey grab in the 2nd quarter.
...
BTW, that four-part photo of all the Saints' missed calls is gamed. No Saints stomped on a Ram ... that one is a freeze-frame of a Saint skipping over a downed Ram. The delay-of-game snapshot relies on the 'red square' time put up by the game broadcast booth, not on on-field time. The two facemasks just weren't on the level of the Robey-Coleman layout ... plus it's precedent that if a defender lets go of an inadvertant facemask ASAP, a penalty can be avoided.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Then it's not just about getting the calls right because if the team doesn't have any more challenges then even the most egregious missed penalty can't be overturned.
Oh I am sure- I'm just saying that there are several uncertain calls or no calls in the course of every that are for debate. What is egregious or not is subjective. I am mad about the call, I had a future bet on the Saints and Chiefs to win the SB that would have netteed me between 400 and 700. The losses hurt and I think the refs screwed up majorly late in both games. However, that doesn't make me want to add more replay to the game.
Doug B
Footballguy
Well, I'm trying to think of a halfway measure that would be more palatable to those who don't like the booth-reffing (of the whole game) idea. I have always thought that coaches should have a few more challenges available to them -- not sure 2 per game is the sweet spot.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I get it- no doubt the system can be improved. I just think the more we tinker, the more we cover one hole and expose another all while ultimately making the games less fun IMO. Just my perspective.
Doug B
Footballguy
... this is actually a sneaky good thought. Since it's harder for officials to get into position for these calls than, say, for false starts, holding calls in the box, or roughing the passer ... maybe it's legit that these types of downfield calls get separated out as plays that need different 'processing'.
How about minimizing rules? Taking away a lot of the iffy judgement calls and make those things legal. Pick plays....legal (they basically are now). Only call PI or illegal contact down field if one player gains a significant advantage (like tackling a guy when the ball is in the air or pushing the defender completely away to gain an advantage). Hand fighting where each player is doing it is fine so long as there is no clear advantage.
Have the NFL review the most judgement type calls that happen all the time and get called sometimes and make them legal so you don't have to judge anymore. Teams will have to adjust but it lowers the stoppages and much of the judgements. Simplify instead of make more complicated.
Having super slo-mo replays and 10,000 angles of every play has increased the #####ing about bad calls because you can talk yourself into whatever side you want to see when you slow it down enough.
As far as coaches challenges, they should be allowed to challenge as long as they have time outs. If they challenge and the call is overturned so they keep their timeout they can keep challenging. Why limit the challenges if the coach is getting them right? He is essentially being punished by getting the calls right after 2 or 3 challenges (wherever it's capped at now).
Have the NFL review the most judgement type calls that happen all the time and get called sometimes and make them legal so you don't have to judge anymore. Teams will have to adjust but it lowers the stoppages and much of the judgements. Simplify instead of make more complicated.
Having super slo-mo replays and 10,000 angles of every play has increased the #####ing about bad calls because you can talk yourself into whatever side you want to see when you slow it down enough.
As far as coaches challenges, they should be allowed to challenge as long as they have time outs. If they challenge and the call is overturned so they keep their timeout they can keep challenging. Why limit the challenges if the coach is getting them right? He is essentially being punished by getting the calls right after 2 or 3 challenges (wherever it's capped at now).
Ilov80s
Footballguy
That would happen for sure. Coaches would probably hate this suggestion because it would put to much pressure on them. But I like providing them the option. Plus in the last two minutes of the game all replay challenges would go to the booth so even if they blew the challenge early they still might get it replayed.
Saying that last sentence actually makes me think that would be the major problem. Two many booth initiated replays in last two minutes. Run the risk of turning thing this into one of the things that plagues the NBA, where what should be the most exciting part of the game is ruined by constant timeouts and stoppages.
On another somewhat related note I wonder what the correlation among fans with respect to how they feel about replays is based on how they watch the games. If I went to games more often I'd absolutely hate any additional replays, but I'm on reverse spectrum and if multiple games are not going on at once I'm usually not watching live and just FF through replays so they don't really bother me.
DropKick
Footballguy
No offense but you don't have a clue as to how fast the game is and how difficult it can be to determine, in real time, exactly what happened.
ETA: P.S. Your shtick is over-used, tiresome and distasteful.
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DropKick
Footballguy
Sunday's game was won on the field and both teams got to exhibit their best. I believe both of those things to be true.
For grins, let's say we have it your way. Patriots score a TD. Chiefs score a TD. Are we now sudden death? Pats kick a FG. Now what? Do we complain about an uneven number of possessions again? Or let's have these guys beat each other up for another 15 minutes. What happens if we're tied again? You want these guys playing for 90+ minutes?
There is something very appealing about the drama and suddenness of NFL OT, especially in the play-offs.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Yes. Both teams had 60 minutes to win the game, and if one offense doesn't get the ball in OT because they lost the coin flip and their defense couldn't keep the other team out of the end zone, that is too bad.Hov34 said:
Hov34
Eephus's Great Great Great Love Child
Yep, and in the 10th inning if you can't keep the visiting team from scoring you don't get to bat. I like where this is going. Shorter games!
DropKick
Footballguy
Horrible comp. Baseball and football are different...
Football has "sudden death"... baseball has "extra innings" kind of like taking the kids out for ice cream.
This guy could explain it better
Insein
Footballguy
Play for 15 minutes. If it's still tied, play another 15. Repeat until score is not tied at the end. Pretty simple. Seems ridiculous that the coin toss determined the winner because chances are pretty good that if KC won the toss, they go down and score a TD with Tom Brady never getting the ball.DropKick said:
Anarchy99
Footballguy
NE had 6 possessions in the game when they didn’t get a TD. KC had 5 possessions when they didn’t score a TD. Either team could play defense in OT and prevent the other from going 75 yards.
Lost in of this is that in OT, if a defense got a stop or a turnover, it has a huge advantage. It would only need a FG for a guaranteed win.
The Rams did just that. They got an INT and only went 15 yards before hitting a game winning FG.
It took the Pats 13 plays to get in the end zone in OT. How many third and longs did NE convert in OT?
i posted in one of these threads home teams LOSING the coin toss have won almost 60% of the time in the existing OT system.
Had the Chiefs won the toss and scored a TD with Brady only able to watch, no one would have said a peep that the OT rules were unfair. More importantly, B.B. would not have said anything about the rules being unfair.
IMO, NE’s strategy of ground and pound, ball control is designed to wear out a defense with part of it to be able to win in a single possession in OT. Against KC, they ran 94 plays. That’s part of the strategy. Even on the flip side, NE’s defense would have been a lot fresher having been in the field for half the number of plays.
Insein
Footballguy
KC scored 24 points in the 4th quarter including getting 3 points when they only had 39 seconds left. They were moving the ball at will. There's no doubt in my mind that had they got the ball first in OT, they'd have scored a TD.
NE may have had a great strategy to win on the first possession in OT but their defense was just as gassed. They were hanging on for dear life. Had they lost the coin toss, that strategy would have been null and void.
And that's my point. Yes BB and TB would not have complained. They know the rules as they are but it still wouldn't have made it right. To have the game come down to a scenario where the opposing team did just as much to get to the extra frame but never possesses the ball because of the way a coin fell feels cheap to the fans.
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brettdj
Footballguy
I know several of the "Part-Time" NFL officials. They are film geeks. They are always in the film during the season and the offseason. They work with NFL film and NCAA film. They help run film review for NCAA group meetings. They did not get to the NFL without being that way. They are dedicated to this profession in ways most do not understand.
This facemask was the incidental 5 yard kind that would only be called in High School football today. It did not fit the category of "grab and twist" or "grab and pull".
bostonfred
Footballguy
I'm coming into this thread late and haven't read all the responses, but
Replay can be good. Automatic replay sucks. And replay of judgement calls is awful.
I think we all agree that replay is good when it helps to get the right call, and especially when it fixes an obviously bad call.
I think it went wrong when we went to automatic replay. Don't get me wrong, i understand that scoring plays are the most important to get right. But it sucks as a fan when you see a player make a great play and the ref throws his hands up and the announcers yell touchdown and then... let's wait a minute here, just need to get the officials to watch this and the former official turned professional armchair lawyer can tell us over the phone whether he thinks this should be a touchdown and then finally we find out.
And that wasn't enough, now they replay any close play in the final minutes. Which means that the two minute drill can almost never have its proper drama because it always lasts forever.
It's seriously hurting the fan experience.
But what's even worse is replay of judgement calls. And the most obvious example is replay of the catch rule. Oh, yeah, he definitely caught it, but was it a catch? Did he catch it and keep control? Did it wiggle? Did it touch the ground? When did he really really have control? Did he complete the process of the catch?
Now people are talking about taking rhe worst of all those things and making a new amalgam. Replay of subjective penalties.
Think about this. Almost every play we'll watch detailed review of a play that was called, or wasn't called, or that the announcers think should have been called. Was that defensive holding? Pass interference? And do we get to review offensive holding too? Pretty much every play could get called.
So now the two minute drill will become the gauntlet of penalty reviews and by the way some football. Quarterbacks will convert first and 5 and if it's first and 20 they'll take a couple deep shots and hope to get a pass interference call on the field or on replay?
This can't be allowed. Please do not support this.
Replay can be good. Automatic replay sucks. And replay of judgement calls is awful.
I think we all agree that replay is good when it helps to get the right call, and especially when it fixes an obviously bad call.
I think it went wrong when we went to automatic replay. Don't get me wrong, i understand that scoring plays are the most important to get right. But it sucks as a fan when you see a player make a great play and the ref throws his hands up and the announcers yell touchdown and then... let's wait a minute here, just need to get the officials to watch this and the former official turned professional armchair lawyer can tell us over the phone whether he thinks this should be a touchdown and then finally we find out.
And that wasn't enough, now they replay any close play in the final minutes. Which means that the two minute drill can almost never have its proper drama because it always lasts forever.
It's seriously hurting the fan experience.
But what's even worse is replay of judgement calls. And the most obvious example is replay of the catch rule. Oh, yeah, he definitely caught it, but was it a catch? Did he catch it and keep control? Did it wiggle? Did it touch the ground? When did he really really have control? Did he complete the process of the catch?
Now people are talking about taking rhe worst of all those things and making a new amalgam. Replay of subjective penalties.
Think about this. Almost every play we'll watch detailed review of a play that was called, or wasn't called, or that the announcers think should have been called. Was that defensive holding? Pass interference? And do we get to review offensive holding too? Pretty much every play could get called.
So now the two minute drill will become the gauntlet of penalty reviews and by the way some football. Quarterbacks will convert first and 5 and if it's first and 20 they'll take a couple deep shots and hope to get a pass interference call on the field or on replay?
This can't be allowed. Please do not support this.
DJackson10
Footballguy
When challenges first started the Refs had a limited amount of time and after the time was up they could no longer look at the play. I don't know why they got rid of that.
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