Is it time for every penalty/call to be reviewed/reviewable? (1 Viewer)

[Anarchy99]

While this is a little off topic I have a problem with the NFL OT rules. I think that both teams after playing 60 minutes to a tie deserve the right to have the ball on O in the OT period, especially in the playoffs. Totally unfair to have a game decided on a coin flip. They changed the rule on the FG now I think it's time to also make the change for the TD on 1st possession only.

Did both teams have 60 minutes to score more points or allow fewer points than the other team? Did their defense have numerous opportunities to stop a team from going 75 yards for a game winning score in OT? In the NE / KC game, how many 3rd and 10 conversions did the Patriots get on that OT drive?

 

[Brony]

How do they handle this in esports?

 

[Henry Ford]

That first one is brutal but the Kamara hit is simply a judgement call. They didn't exist decades ago. Maybe they need more refs per game because of it. There is more potential for penalties now than decades ago. I mean who watches the QB? You now need eyes on him because of the rules. Isa it the same guy that has to watch for holding calls? Nobody is gonna get that right all the time. Game moves too fast.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-nfls-penalty-problem-1536839971

Roughing the passer 2017 - 105, 1997 - 57.

Unnecessay roughness - 2017 - 200, 1997 - 104.

These are calls that are judgmental and based on new rules, called more often. Thus if it's called more often, it goes to reason it's going to be missed more often.

The ref is standing in between the camera and the hit. Are you saying there's a question as to whether he initiated contact with his helmet?  He was alligator-arming it while spearing Kamara. He didn't even put his arms out.

 

[ShamrockPride]

While this is a little off topic I have a problem with the NFL OT rules. I think that both teams after playing 60 minutes to a tie deserve the right to have the ball on O in the OT period, especially in the playoffs. Totally unfair to have a game decided on a coin flip. They changed the rule on the FG now I think it's time to also make the change for the TD on 1st possession only.

Make a separate thread bruh. I think there will be plenty of discussion, especially after yesterday.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

not only no but hell no. cannot be reviewing if there was a  penalties, crap every big play....there was a hold on the oline, or check for PI....

 

[ShamrockPride]

Did both teams have 60 minutes to score more points or allow fewer points than the other team? Did their defense have numerous opportunities to stop a team from going 75 yards for a game winning score in OT? In the NE / KC game, how many 3rd and 10 conversions did the Patriots get on that OT drive?

I don't think this is all sour grapes though. Some of it, sure. But I was watching the twitters right after the end of regulation and there were plenty of people already complaining about the rules before the coin even flipped.

 

[Doug B]

The ref is standing in between the camera and the hit. Are you saying there's a question as to whether he initiated contact with his helmet?  He was alligator-arming it while spearing Kamara. He didn't even put his arms out.

I am learning that a lot of fans just don't mind at all unless it affects their team. Can't really say I'm any better when it doesn't affect the Saints   While I'd love to see NFL games better run and better called ... no one team's fan base or owner or whatever is going to be able to get critical mass for change to take place.

The sport of pro football, as it stands now, is kind of screwed up and hair away from illegitimate due to inconsistent application of game rules that too often have outsized effects on results. But it's a house divided -- one team gets screwed, 31 other teams turn their backs. Forget, rinse, repeat.

That's the best we can expect?

 

[lod001]

The ref is standing in between the camera and the hit. Are you saying there's a question as to whether he initiated contact with his helmet?  He was alligator-arming it while spearing Kamara. He didn't even put his arms out.

No, I'm saying it's another judgment call (certainly a penalty) but still a judgment call. The tackle was simply a missed spot and a blown call. What I'm saying  is that the refs now have way more judgment calls than they did decades ago. Thus it makes their job ahrder and they will miss more calls.

 

[lod001]

I don't think this is all sour grapes though. Some of it, sure. But I was watching the twitters right after the end of regulation and there were plenty of people already complaining about the rules before the coin even flipped.

They should simply play another Q or at least another 10 minutes. Pretty hard to milk all 10 minutes and score a TD. First to score was dumb. Win coin toss & score via TD is dumb. Like someone else said, maybe in the playoffs only play a full 10 more minutes.

 

[Doug B]

No, I'm saying it's another judgment call (certainly a penalty) but still a judgment call. The tackle was simply a missed spot and a blown call. What I'm saying  is that the refs now have way more judgment calls than they did decades ago. Thus it makes their job harder and they will miss more calls.

Thus needing technology to step in and improve (not perfect) the process.

 

[Henry Ford]

I am learning that a lot of fans just don't mind at all unless it affects their team. Can't really say I'm any better when it doesn't affect the Saints   While I'd love to see NFL games better run and better called ... no one team's fan base or owner or whatever is going to be able to get critical mass for change to take place.

The sport of pro football, as it stands now, is kind of screwed up and hair away from illegitimate due to inconsistent application of game rules that too often have outsized effects on results. But it's a house divided -- one team gets screwed, 31 other teams turn their backs. Forget, rinse, repeat.

That's the best we can expect?

Exactly.  Why I can't really care anymore.

 

[Doug B]

not only no but hell no. cannot be reviewing if there was a  penalties, crap every big play....there was a hold on the oline, or check for PI....

Perhaps there can be a way to prevent reviews from picking apart smaller stuff in the service of catching the big stuff. Dunno.

 

[Hov34]

While this is a little off topic I have a problem with the NFL OT rules. I think that both teams after playing 60 minutes to a tie deserve the right to have the ball on O in the OT period, especially in the playoffs. Totally unfair to have a game decided on a coin flip. They changed the rule on the FG now I think it's time to also make the change for the TD on 1st possession only.

Did both teams have 60 minutes to score more points or allow fewer points than the other team? Did their defense have numerous opportunities to stop a team from going 75 yards for a game winning score in OT? In the NE / KC game, how many 3rd and 10 conversions did the Patriots get on that OT drive?

So you are ok with the league MVP not touching the ball in OT due to a coin flip?

How can college get OT closer to "right" than the NFL.

 

[Doug B]

So you are ok with the league MVP not touching the ball in OT due to a coin flip?

People are often fine with unfairness in general so long as their ox isn't gored.

 

[Hov34]

I am learning that a lot of fans just don't mind at all unless it affects their team. Can't really say I'm any better when it doesn't affect the Saints � While I'd love to see NFL games better run and better called ... no one team's fan base or owner or whatever is going to be able to get critical mass for change to take place.

The sport of pro football, as it stands now, is kind of screwed up and hair away from illegitimate due to inconsistent application of game rules that too often have outsized effects on results. But it's a house divided -- one team gets screwed, 31 other teams turn their backs. Forget, rinse, repeat.

That's the best we can expect?

Don't worry, You'll get your payback in about 10 years when something unfair happens to the San Antonio Rams and they lose due to a blown call and all will be right with the world.

Signed,

Bitter Vikings fan.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

So you are ok with the league MVP not touching the ball in OT due to a coin flip?

nope....stupid.....also note somehow someway the Pats have gotten the ball first in all 3 of their playoff overtime games, rather be lucky than good

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

I am learning that a lot of fans just don't mind at all unless it affects their team. Can't really say I'm any better when it doesn't affect the Saints   While I'd love to see NFL games better run and better called ... no one team's fan base or owner or whatever is going to be able to get critical mass for change to take place.

The sport of pro football, as it stands now, is kind of screwed up and hair away from illegitimate due to inconsistent application of game rules that too often have outsized effects on results. But it's a house divided -- one team gets screwed, 31 other teams turn their backs. Forget, rinse, repeat.

That's the best we can expect?

while the call was a bad one, I think Payton let it effect him way too much. saints gave up the game tying drive at the end of regulation and then got the ball first in OT, but they seemed rattled...because their genius coach was rattled. Brees made a colossal blunder, but all we hear about is this no-call now? sorry, get over it.

 

[Anarchy99]

So you are ok with the league MVP not touching the ball in OT due to a coin flip?

How can college get OT closer to "right" than the NFL.

The point of overtime is to break a tie. People are aware that the team that doesn't win the coin toss  can still win? The Saints got the ball first and lost.

As for Mahomes not touching the ball, the Chiefs had 13 plays to stop NE. So no, I don't feel badly for the Chiefs. I would have said the same thing if Mahomes went down the field and scored.

RECORD FOR TEAMS THAT WIN COIN TOSS IN OT, SINCE 2012

22-28-3 (.443) on road
33-22-4 (.593) at home
56-50-7 (.527) overall

I have been more of a proponent for either continuing the game from where regulation ended (same team keeps the ball, 2nd and 7 at their own 42 yard line if that's what the down and distance was) and next score wins - OR - playing an entire 15 minute overtime period that is NOT sudden death.

 

[leave a whisper]

playoff baseball has extra umps in the outfield ...... 

NFL playoffs should have a crew watching the game with ability to stop game and review any and all plays they so desire - with powers to overturn any play and/or call  ...... too much on the line (Vegas, brands, clout, contracts) ...... NFL can not let this happen again 

there is bad, and then there is criminal ---- that no call call was inexcusable  

 

[Anarchy99]

playoff baseball has extra umps in the outfield ...... 

NFL playoffs should have a crew watching the game with ability to stop game and review any and all plays they so desire - with powers to overturn any play and/or call  ...... too much on the line (Vegas, brands, clout, contracts) ...... NFL can not let this happen again 

there is bad, and then there is criminal ---- that no call call was inexcusable  

I agree that the call against the Saints was criminal. But what about the face mask that wasn't called on Goff minutes earlier. Or the phantom roughing call on Brady. Or the clear OPI on several big plays where the Chiefs got to or in the end zone where a WR was blocking 8 yards downfield before the ball was even thrown. How many times are we going to have booth refs change plays in a game?

 

[menobrown]

So long as we don't increase the amount of challenges, or at least not more then adding one additional per game, I think you should be able to challenge whatever you want.

ETA-i'd really like a rule where we basically keep the current rules and allow teams one penalty reviewable call per game. Most of the time penalties have a way of evening out, giving teams one chance to review incredibly egregious or game changing penalties seems like an easy fix to me that would not have major impact on dragging the games out.

 

[Doug B]

there is bad, and then there is criminal ---- that no call call was inexcusable  

With the way the NFL is currently constituted, these cannot be told apart. We may assume there's no conspiracy or ill will down at the individual referee level ... but a cursory glance at an NFL game won't make that clear one way or the other.

 

[Doug B]

Don't worry, You'll get your payback in about 10 years when something unfair happens to the San Antonio Rams and they lose due to a blown call and all will be right with the world.

Nope -- another blown ignored call won't make things right. 

 

[Doug B]

Sorry, get over it.

Like I have a choice?

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

I agree that the call against the Saints was criminal. But what about the face mask that wasn't called on Goff minutes earlier. Or the phantom roughing call on Brady. Or the clear OPI on several big plays where the Chiefs got to or in the end zone where a WR was blocking 8 yards downfield before the ball was even thrown. How many times are we going to have booth refs change plays in a game?

simple.....you cant, the refs on the field have to call it 

 

[Anarchy99]

simple.....you cant, the refs on the field have to call it 

The refs in the Saints game DIDN'T call a penalty. So then the Saints get hosed and that's the answer?

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

The refs in the Saints game DIDN'T call a penalty. So then the Saints get hosed and that's the answer?

they didn't get hosed David, its a blown call it happens, Saints had plenty of chances to still win that game, but their coach got so butt hurt about that call it looked like it effected his team,  KC got hosed on the phantom roughing call on brady.... there is no answer if the refs don't throw a flag. could they review that? and decide you know what they didn't hit him in the head? ..

 

[Anarchy99]

they didn't get hosed David, its a blown call it happens, KC got hosed on the phantom roughing call on brady.... there is no answer if the refs don't throw a flag....there just isn't

The refs DID throw a flag in the NE game. So even throwing a flag is a problem.

I was not a fan of the officiating in either game. In the Pats game, NE receivers were getting mauled by KC defenders all game long and nothing was called. Yet NE got called for PI and holding several times. I get that these things are judgment calls, but IMO it's hard to pick out ONE PLAY as an egregious call or non call but leave out the 10 others in the same game in similar situations.

I truly believe that a penalty could be called on 80-90% of all plays. There is always something going on somewhere that could be flagged. Even on the bogus Brady roughing the passer call, I thought Edelman had been held on the play and pushed in the back for either defensive holding or PI. That's kind of my point. Refs can decide to call or not call just about anything. Same thing with the call on JC Jackson late in the game. Both guys were hand checking or pushing off the whole game and suddenly on that play it's called DPI. As I remember, the pass wasn't even close to the receiver. I don't care how games are called provided they call the same plays the same consistently . . . which is rare.

On one of the morning tv sports talk shows, someone even argued that the lining up in the neutral zone shouldn't have been called or enforced because it had no outcome on the play. Where does it end on some of these debates?

 

[Doug B]

not only no but hell no. cannot be reviewing if there was a  penalties, crap every big play....there was a hold on the oline, or check for PI....

NFL will consider making pass interference calls reviewable, after Rams-Saints gaffe (Washington Post, 1/21/2019)

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Refs suck....what are you gonna do yuds?.....and if you want to whine about holding wrs down the field the pats wrote the book on it...

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Refs suck....what are you gonna do yuds?.....and if you want to whine about holding wrs down the field the pats wrote the book on it...

 

[Interseptopus]

The refs DID throw a flag in the NE game. So even throwing a flag is a problem.

I was not a fan of the officiating in either game. In the Pats game, NE receivers were getting mauled by KC defenders all game long and nothing was called. Yet NE got called for PI and holding several times. I get that these things are judgment calls, but IMO it's hard to pick out ONE PLAY as an egregious call or non call but leave out the 10 others in the same game in similar situations.

I truly believe that a penalty could be called on 80-90% of all plays. There is always something going on somewhere that could be flagged. Even the on the bogus Brady roughing the passer call, I thought Edelman had been held on the play and pushed in the back for either defensive holding or PI. That's kind of my point. Refs can decide to call or not call just about anything. Same thing with the call on JC Jackson late in the game. Both guys were hand checking or pushing off the whole game and suddenly on that play it's called DPI. As I remember, the pass wasn't even close to the receiver. I don't care how games are called provided they call the same plays the same consistently . . . which is rare.

On one of the morning tv sports talk shows, someone even argued that the lining up in the neutral zone shouldn't have been called or enforced because it had no outcome on the play. Where does it end on some of these debates?

this.

we really open Pandora's box here when we start challenging penalties. 

At some point all fans need to recognize that errors will be made, and it's part of the game. not one call or non call should be thought of as determining the outcome of the game. I'm sure there were calls all game that were missed that would have extended a drive, put someone into fg range, taken someone out of fg range, negated a score, etc. 

If we are going to allow challenging penalties, you know the coach will wait for the last drive before 2 minutes and challenge something, anything, to extend the drive.

guys are always playing handsy down the sidelines. all you need to do if you're down 1 score and have the ball, is at minute 2:14 call go routes and chuck it deep. throw a challenge flag for handsy play, and suddenly you're in range to win the game. do fans really want that? they allow it all game but because one team had the ball last before 2 minutes, suddenly it mattered? I sure dont. 

 

[Anarchy99]

Refs suck....what are you gonna do yuds?.....and if you want to whine about holding wrs down the field the pats wrote the book on it...

I get that, which is why I wasn't initially saying anything on the officiating. Yes, NE mixes it up on defense and has lots of plays on offense where they pick off defenders. My point was in yesterday's games (plural), there were a lot of plays that were called or not called that impacted the game. Even BB said there were probably 50 plays that had a big outcome on the game and calls that could have gone either way. So when a ton of people point to the ONE CALL of roughing the passer and leave out the 93 other NE plays on offense like nothing else happened on those plays, yeah, it gets a little frustrating.

 

[Bossman]

The correct answer is;

Hire full time refs that get the call right the first time.

These guys are not doing a good job. "Joe average ref" still has to deliver mail Monday morning ... or open the Subway that he manages.

Heck, maybe put another ref (or two) on the field if the ones that are there are missing calls.

I understand the refs keeping the flags in their pocket for playoff games

... but the Rams non PI call was ridiculous. and on the replay, you can see a referee in the background staring at the hit. He obviously had a great view of it.

PI and / or helmet to helmet. Yet no flag. Not his call to make? Shouldn't matter. He obviously saw it and decided to not call it.

... yet KC gets a ridiculous roughing the passer call when their defenders hand came down and "slightly" brushed TB's facemask before hitting him in the chest / shoulder.

15 yard penalty for something the ref "thought" he saw .. but the ref that threw the flag was behind Brady so he could only guess at what actually happened. Not one other ref saw what actually happened? ... and didn't consult with him to have the flag picked up? 

.... and no call on def PI on Dorsett in the end zone (who caught the TD anyway).... yet at a different point in the game they throw a flag for offensive PI on Dorsett when it was the defender that was grabbing HIS jersey on a pass that went to James White. So bad.

.... as someone else mentioned ... blatant pick play that KC got away with for a huge play.

Why are these Refs missing blatant fouls and throwing flags on questionable infractions? 

Find a way to get these refs to do a better job.

 

[jonessed]

It would fix the Brady rule which came into play on one of the final drives.  The headshot to the shoulder.  How do you call a penalty for something that never happened?  Some weird refereeing yesterday.

 

[Thunderlips]

Starting to believe that the game should largely be officiated from the booth anyway. Cameras give better and multiple angles, and can slow down the bang-bang plays when helpful to do so. On-field refs can take care of spotting the ball and a couple of other tasks (false starts, maybe holding?) ... otherwise, the booth refs would be both the first and the final word.

The game need not slow down at all. This could be done in very, very close to real time. Extend the play clock 5-10 seconds ... or have a 5-10 second 'freeze' on the game clock and play clock between every play. Or else give the booth refs the option to click a button and advance to the next play without a time freeze (plays where the outcome is obvious and there's really nothing to review).

This.  

 

[Insein]

While this is a little off topic I have a problem with the NFL OT rules. I think that both teams after playing 60 minutes to a tie deserve the right to have the ball on O in the OT period, especially in the playoffs. Totally unfair to have a game decided on a coin flip. They changed the rule on the FG now I think it's time to also make the change for the TD on 1st possession only.

Take away the sudden death altogether. A full extra 15 min period. Score as much as you can. Whoever is winning after 15 mins, wins. If it's still tied, keep going. At least do that for the playoffs. Regular season can stay the same.

 

[Thunderlips]

I agree that the call against the Saints was criminal. But what about the face mask that wasn't called on Goff minutes earlier. Or the phantom roughing call on Brady. Or the clear OPI on several big plays where the Chiefs got to or in the end zone where a WR was blocking 8 yards downfield before the ball was even thrown. How many times are we going to have booth refs change plays in a game?

Until it's played right?  

 

[Insein]

Until it's played right?  

A booth ref in theory would be just like another guy in the field. They all consult with each other on any calls anyway to get a number and the penalty. Take an extra 10 seconds to say "hey what did you see" to the booth official.

 

[Thunderlips]

It's a two pronged solutation:

1) Technology is there to assist the human eye on the field in regards to penalites.  As long as the pace of the game isn't greatly inconvienenced...it should be used.   There's no reason why a multi-billion dollar industry can't have a 3 man team at each game and a small increase in the number of cameras and allow that booth to make judgement calls and alert on field refs when they mess up.

2)  I think there has to be more of a effort by refs to tell each team what kind of game they're going to call today, (we're letting you guys bump a bit more downfield...we're not going to call penalties off the ball as much.....we're calling it tight tonight) to stick to it and be impartial.  

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Did both teams have 60 minutes to score more points or allow fewer points than the other team? Did their defense have numerous opportunities to stop a team from going 75 yards for a game winning score in OT? In the NE / KC game, how many 3rd and 10 conversions did the Patriots get on that OT drive?

Well I guess if the only requirement for OT is that all teams had a chance to win in regulation then maybe we should just flip a coin to pick the winner in OT?  Or automatically give the win to the home team?  Or see which team can punt the ball further?

"They had an opportunity to win before then" is one of the most repeated, least sensical arguments that comes up in sports discussion.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

I would not be opposed to a "golden buzzer" used only during playoff games by a competition committee to ensure what happened to the Saints yesterday never happens again (Pats fan here).

Imagine the plays reversed:

- yesterday's travesty

- Dez Bryant non catch

- Brady's non fumble "tuck rule"

- etc.

Nobody wants longer games, but something has to be done about yesterday.

 

[Bossman]

at 5:53 ... should a flag be thrown for a forearm shiver to the facemask?

Or is this considered a clean block? 

KC / NE Forearm Shiver

If a penalty, Did not one ref see this happen right next to the ball carrier?

These refs are either blind or very biased. 

 

[treat88]

I will give the league credit where due, I think the evolution of the catch rule has come to a point where they finally got it right this year.

I understand every call can be game changing, but PI and helmet based penalties involve spot fouls and possible ejections.  The subjectivity of them combined with the game altering consequences should have a second look to get it right.  Every play should be watched by a booth official for those specific fouls, both called and not called, on field refs should be buzzed if they want to take a closer look and then the outcome can be quickly and correctly determined.  Its really not that tough or time consuming IMO.

 

[Hot Diggity Dog]

It seems like there could be a referee that sat in a box or was watching the game with a full view of the field, live or on video, that could quickly contact the head referee after a play and call penalties like the rams interference or quickly consult with them and have the refs on the field make calls.  It seems like a wide view and an extra set of eyes would help immensely. 

 

[Insein]

I will give the league credit where due, I think the evolution of the catch rule has come to a point where they finally got it right this year.

I understand every call can be game changing, but PI and helmet based penalties involve spot fouls and possible ejections.  The subjectivity of them combined with the game altering consequences should have a second look to get it right.  Every play should be watched by a booth official for those specific fouls, both called and not called, on field refs should be buzzed if they want to take a closer look and then the outcome can be quickly and correctly determined.  Its really not that tough or time consuming IMO.

College reviews headshots in the booth before declaring an ejection. Takes about a minute extra for the ref to say yea or nay.

 

[OrtonToOlsen]

playoff baseball has extra umps in the outfield ...... 

I say we double the number of refs in NFL games. Two umpire, two back judges etc.

Join them at the hip with some sort of special belt like Matt Damon and Greg Kinnear in that one movie.  

Both Siamese Twins have to throw a flag for the penalty to count.

 

[ZenoRazon]

The Rams have no business being  in the SB. And something really does need to be done about this.

Hell, set the SB back a week and play the game again.

I know.

 

[LJax]

This may be happening to some extent. But why not have one or more officials as (part of the crew) in the booth and with the help of replay can also have a flag thrown or have a flag picked up?  We as fans usually know within seconds if a "blatant foul" was missed or a mistaken flag was thrown. Just a little whisper in the ear of the head ref. to get it right. Probably can be done faster than the ref. that runs 30 yards to the head ref to inform him of his call.

 

[ZWK]

One approach that seems like it might be good:

- keep the current challenge system (2+1 challenges, with booth-initiated reviews in some situations)
- every aspect of the play is reviewable including judgment calls like pass interference and holding
- judgment calls are only overturned if they're blatant
- have the crew in NY do the reviews to save time

So the Rams' non-PI call against the Saints could be reviewed and should be overturned because it was blatant. The Steelers' PI call against the Saints could also be reviewed but should not be overturned, since there was some contact between the defender's hands and the receiver's back (even though IMO it would've been better to not call it).