Is Marvin Harrison a product of the system? (1 Viewer)

[eaglesdarter]

a little off topic but how much longer do you think Harrison is going to play? Will this slow the offense? Who takes his place? I think the success of that person will give insight to the question.

 

[JohnnyU]

From wikipedia:

Harrison was involved in one of the most infamous blunders in the history of the NFL playoffs. In the 2003 NFL playoffs, Harrison, against the Denver Broncos, caught a 20 yard pass from Peyton Manning across the middle. Deltha O'Neal, the Broncos cornerback who now plays with the Cincinnati Bengals, had forgotten to touch Harrison down, and Harrison stood up and continued running, eventually scoring on a fifty-yard touchdown play. Broncos head coach Mike Shanahan was infuriated with O'Neal and the rest of the Broncos defenders that were around Harrison, who helped clinch victory as the Colts went up 28-3. Indianapolis would eventually win 41-10 in a blowout. Harrison would finish that game against Denver with 7 receptions for 133 yards and 2 touchdowns, in his finest post-season performance to date. It is currently his only 100 yard performance in a postseason game and the only time he ever scored a touchdown in the playoffs.

So apparently, in his only postseason game ever to go over 100 and score a TD, 30 yards and 1TD was from a botched play. Why has Harrison come up small in the postseason so often?(in comparison to his regular season performances) More to do with Manning's failures(besides last year) in the postseason?

Maybe it has to do with most playoff teams having the top defenses in the NFL, double covering Harrison, and Manning being good enough to use his other options. In fact, in review of Colts playoff games, a number of Peyton's picks were when he was forcing throws to Harrison.

Maybe, but many other top recievers have faced double coverage in the playoffs and put up big games(Rice, Moss, Owens, etc.) Why hasn't Marvin?

I don't think it is Marvin slacking off in the playoffs, how many drops does he have? It's just a matter of the other WR being more productive, and Manning not doing so hot in the playoffs.

I don't think # of drops is really a good indicator. Targets or % of targets converted might be better. If you're not getting open you're not going to get the ball thrown to you.

When I say drops I think it is a good indicator of how HE choked. Harrison can get a target, it doesn't mean it is a catchable pass.

But what about # of targets? If you're not getting open, you're not going to get targets. I would probably consider not getting open or in position to get targets as 'choking.'

Sometimes # of targets is dictated by taking what the defense gives you. If teams want to take someone away, they usually can, but it leaves other spots in the defense vulnerable.

 

[switz]

Actually, at the time.... 836/8 coulda been one of the greatest rook seasons in history at that time (think pre-boldin, pre-colston, pre-moss). So it's half correct.

According to my calculations, 836 yards would have been the 34th-best rookie season at the time (in terms of receiving yards). He was only the fourth-best rookie in his own rookie year (Glenn, Kennison, and Keyshawn).

25th, according to the historical data dominator.

I didn't realize that was such a good year for rookie WRs. Regardless, Harrison continued to put up great numbers annually, while those other players didn't. Was some of that Manning? Sure. But it's also true that Harrison continued to work hard at improving his game.

 

[Yenrub]

He was awesome before Manning got there with very poor QBs.

He was a stud in his two years before Manning was drafted. And also during Manning's rough rookie year.

Harrison was excellent before Manning, and got off to one of the best starts of any rookie WR in history.

Where are you people getting this?His pre-Manning numbers looked a lot like Chris Sanders or Frank Sanders or Darnay Scott. Solid certainly, but I wouldn't call them excellent. His first 900-yard season was in his fourth year (Manning's second). And I'm hard pressed to understand what the bolded statement might be referring to. Harrison's rookie year:

+----------+--------+-------------+----+| WK OPP | RSHYD | REC YD | TD |+----------+--------+-------------+----+| 1 ari | 0 | 6 85 | 1 || 2 nyj | 0 | 2 35 | 0 || 3 dal | 0 | 3 16 | 0 || 4 mia | 15 | 4 11 | 0 || 6 buf | 0 | 5 88 | 0 || 7 bal | 0 | 1 20 | 0 || 8 nwe | 0 | 4 42 | 0 || 9 was | -4 | 2 18 | 0 || 10 sdg | 0 | 3 35 | 1 || 11 mia | 0 | 4 38 | 0 || 12 nyj | 0 | 3 39 | 1 || 13 nwe | 0 | 6 93 | 1 || 14 buf | 0 | 3 22 | 0 || 15 phi | 4 | 6 106 | 1 || 16 kan | 0 | 6 103 | 3 || 17 cin | 0 | 6 85 | 0 |+----------+--------+-------------+----+| TOTAL | 15 | 64 836 | 8 |+----------+--------+-------------+----+

Quick - outside of Moss, Colston, and Boldin - name a better rookie season.

Terry GlennWhat do I win??

 

[switz]

He was awesome before Manning got there with very poor QBs.

He was a stud in his two years before Manning was drafted. And also during Manning's rough rookie year.

Harrison was excellent before Manning, and got off to one of the best starts of any rookie WR in history.

Where are you people getting this?His pre-Manning numbers looked a lot like Chris Sanders or Frank Sanders or Darnay Scott. Solid certainly, but I wouldn't call them excellent. His first 900-yard season was in his fourth year (Manning's second). And I'm hard pressed to understand what the bolded statement might be referring to. Harrison's rookie year:

+----------+--------+-------------+----+| WK OPP | RSHYD | REC YD | TD |+----------+--------+-------------+----+| 1 ari | 0 | 6 85 | 1 || 2 nyj | 0 | 2 35 | 0 || 3 dal | 0 | 3 16 | 0 || 4 mia | 15 | 4 11 | 0 || 6 buf | 0 | 5 88 | 0 || 7 bal | 0 | 1 20 | 0 || 8 nwe | 0 | 4 42 | 0 || 9 was | -4 | 2 18 | 0 || 10 sdg | 0 | 3 35 | 1 || 11 mia | 0 | 4 38 | 0 || 12 nyj | 0 | 3 39 | 1 || 13 nwe | 0 | 6 93 | 1 || 14 buf | 0 | 3 22 | 0 || 15 phi | 4 | 6 106 | 1 || 16 kan | 0 | 6 103 | 3 || 17 cin | 0 | 6 85 | 0 |+----------+--------+-------------+----+| TOTAL | 15 | 64 836 | 8 |+----------+--------+-------------+----+

Quick - outside of Moss, Colston, and Boldin - name a better rookie season.

Terry GlennWhat do I win??

Too late, too slow, someone else already looked it up.

 

[Doug Drinen]

There aren't too many receivers who have come onto the scene as strongly as he did.

Right in between Willie Gault and Jerry Butler on the rookie receiving yards list.Right between Chris Sanders and Frank Sanders on the first-two-years receiving yards list.Nothing says STUD like two 800-yard seasons.

 

[BeaverCleaver]

NO

 

[thayman]

He's a product of the system and a product of Peyton Manning. Not even one of the top 20 WRs in history, IMO.

I would love to hear that other 20+ WRs you would put above him.Of course I don't really expect you to ever answer. Since you are obviously clueless or

so you are then.....thanks for the good info.

 

[Doug Drinen]

There aren't too many receivers who have come onto the scene as strongly as he did.

Right in between Willie Gault and Jerry Butler on the rookie receiving yards list.Right between Chris Sanders and Frank Sanders on the first-two-years receiving yards list.

Nothing says STUD like two 800-yard seasons.

In all seriousness...I'm changing the topic a little but, bostonfred, you have consistently (IIRC) criticized Manning for not just his poor numbers in playoff games, but also for his body language. For looking defeated and confused. I don't see how you can't apply the same standard to Harrison for his postseason shortcomings. IMO nobody has looked more scared, timid, and uninspired on the field and the sidelines during playoff games, than Marvin Harrison. I am not going to argue that anyone should hold that against him, but if you're going to hold it against Manning, then why not Marvin too?

 

[bostonfred]

There aren't too many receivers who have come onto the scene as strongly as he did.

Right in between Willie Gault and Jerry Butler on the rookie receiving yards list.Right between Chris Sanders and Frank Sanders on the first-two-years receiving yards list.

Nothing says STUD like two 800-yard seasons.

In all seriousness...I'm changing the topic a little but, bostonfred, you have consistently (IIRC) criticized Manning for not just his poor numbers in playoff games, but also for his body language. For looking defeated and confused. I don't see how you can't apply the same standard to Harrison for his postseason shortcomings. IMO nobody has looked more scared, timid, and uninspired on the field and the sidelines during playoff games, than Marvin Harrison. I am not going to argue that anyone should hold that against him, but if you're going to hold it against Manning, then why not Marvin too?

Fair question. Lots of reasons. The easiest one is that Marvin's not supposed to be the leader of the team. For example, Marvin's not the one who's throwing the ball. He's the one who's watching the quarterback throw picks instead of connecting with him. Marvin's getting hammered out there, while Manning's stayed relatively untouched. Teams can shut down one receiver, and they have tried to do so against Harrison in the playoffs. They can't shut down a quarterback, though, without the quarterback's help. And nobody's claiming that Marvin is the best of all time. If we're getting into that conversation, I'd happily compare him with Rice and I think I, like most people, would take Rice ahead of him. Whereas when we discuss Manning, we're comparing him to the greats of all time. I'd generally consider leadership and playoff production more strongly for a QB than a wide receiver, but when we're talking about the all time greats at QB, there are a lot of players grouped fairly closely together, while there are fewer players in the discussion for best all time at the wide receiver position.

 

[SuperJohn96]

Actually, at the time.... 836/8 coulda been one of the greatest rook seasons in history at that time (think pre-boldin, pre-colston, pre-moss). So it's half correct.

According to my calculations, 836 yards would have been the 34th-best rookie season at the time (in terms of receiving yards). He was only the fourth-best rookie in his own rookie year (Glenn, Kennison, and Keyshawn).

Kennison went 18th Overall to the Rams, while Marvin went 19th to the Colts...I'm not saying anything other than what if the picks were Marvin at 18 to the Rams, and Eddie at 19 to the Colts?

EDDIE KENNISON				 +--------------------------+-------------------------+				 |		  Rushing		 |		Receiving		|+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| Year  TM |   G |   Att  Yards	Y/A   TD |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 1996 stl |  15 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |	54	924  17.1	9 | <-- QB-Tony Banks| 1997 stl |  14 |	 3	 13	4.3	0 |	25	404  16.2	0 | <-- QB-Tony Banks| 1998 stl |  16 |	 2	  9	4.5	0 |	17	234  13.8	1 | <-- QB-Tony Banks| 1999 nor |  16 |	 3	 20	6.7	0 |	61	835  13.7	4 | <-- Joins Saints with 2 Billy Joe's, Rams get Warner, Faulk, Holt| 2000 chi |  16 |	 3	 72   24.0	0 |	55	549  10.0	2 | <-- QB-Shane Matthews/Cade McCown| 2001 den |   8 |	 3	  9	3.0	0 |	15	169  11.3	1 | <-- QB-Brian Griese| 2001 kan |   5 |	 2	 13	6.5	0 |	16	322  20.1	0 | <-- QB-Trent Green| 2002 kan |  16 |	 7	 58	8.3	0 |	53	906  17.1	2 || 2003 kan |  16 |	 2	  9	4.5	0 |	56	853  15.2	5 || 2004 kan |  14 |	 2	 15	7.5	0 |	62   1086  17.5	8 || 2005 kan |  16 |	 7	 43	6.1	0 |	68   1102  16.2	5 || 2006 kan |  16 |	 4	 16	4.0	0 |	53	860  16.2	5 || 2007 kan |   2 |	 1	  5	5.0	0 |	 0	  0   0.0	0 | <-- Missed 4 games, QB-Damon Huard+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+|  TOTAL   | 170 |	39	282	7.2	0 |   535   8244  15.4   42 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+MARVIN HARRISON				 +--------------------------+-------------------------+				 |		  Rushing		 |		Receiving		|+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| Year  TM |   G |   Att  Yards	Y/A   TD |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 1996 ind |  16 |	 3	 15	5.0	0 |	64	836  13.1	8 | <-- QB-Jim Harbaugh | 1997 ind |  16 |	 2	 -7   -3.5	0 |	73	866  11.9	6 | <-- QB-Jim Harbaugh| 1998 ind |  12 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |	59	776  13.2	7 | <-- QB-Peyton Manning| 1999 ind |  16 |	 1	  4	4.0	0 |   115   1663  14.5   12 || 2000 ind |  16 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |   102   1413  13.9   14 || 2001 ind |  16 |	 1	  3	3.0	0 |   109   1524  14.0   15 || 2002 ind |  16 |	 2	 10	5.0	0 |   143   1722  12.0   11 || 2003 ind |  15 |	 1	  3	3.0	0 |	94   1272  13.5   10 || 2004 ind |  16 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |	86   1113  12.9   15 || 2005 ind |  15 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |	82   1146  14.0   12 || 2006 ind |  16 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |	95   1366  14.4   12 || 2007 ind |   4 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |	17	231  13.6	1 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+|  TOTAL   | 174 |	10	 28	2.8	0 |  1039  13928  13.4  123 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

 

[thayman]

Actually, at the time.... 836/8 coulda been one of the greatest rook seasons in history at that time (think pre-boldin, pre-colston, pre-moss). So it's half correct.

According to my calculations, 836 yards would have been the 34th-best rookie season at the time (in terms of receiving yards). He was only the fourth-best rookie in his own rookie year (Glenn, Kennison, and Keyshawn).

Kennison went 18th Overall to the Rams, while Marvin went 19th to the Colts...I'm not saying anything other than what if the picks were Marvin at 18 to the Rams, and Eddie at 19 to the Colts?

EDDIE KENNISON				 +--------------------------+-------------------------+				 |		  Rushing		 |		Receiving		|+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| Year  TM |   G |   Att  Yards	Y/A   TD |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 1996 stl |  15 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |	54	924  17.1	9 | <-- QB-Tony Banks| 1997 stl |  14 |	 3	 13	4.3	0 |	25	404  16.2	0 | <-- QB-Tony Banks| 1998 stl |  16 |	 2	  9	4.5	0 |	17	234  13.8	1 | <-- QB-Tony Banks| 1999 nor |  16 |	 3	 20	6.7	0 |	61	835  13.7	4 | <-- Joins Saints with 2 Billy Joe's, Rams get Warner, Faulk, Holt| 2000 chi |  16 |	 3	 72   24.0	0 |	55	549  10.0	2 | <-- QB-Shane Matthews/Cade McCown| 2001 den |   8 |	 3	  9	3.0	0 |	15	169  11.3	1 | <-- QB-Brian Griese| 2001 kan |   5 |	 2	 13	6.5	0 |	16	322  20.1	0 | <-- QB-Trent Green| 2002 kan |  16 |	 7	 58	8.3	0 |	53	906  17.1	2 || 2003 kan |  16 |	 2	  9	4.5	0 |	56	853  15.2	5 || 2004 kan |  14 |	 2	 15	7.5	0 |	62   1086  17.5	8 || 2005 kan |  16 |	 7	 43	6.1	0 |	68   1102  16.2	5 || 2006 kan |  16 |	 4	 16	4.0	0 |	53	860  16.2	5 || 2007 kan |   2 |	 1	  5	5.0	0 |	 0	  0   0.0	0 | <-- Missed 4 games, QB-Damon Huard+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+|  TOTAL   | 170 |	39	282	7.2	0 |   535   8244  15.4   42 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+MARVIN HARRISON				 +--------------------------+-------------------------+				 |		  Rushing		 |		Receiving		|+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| Year  TM |   G |   Att  Yards	Y/A   TD |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 1996 ind |  16 |	 3	 15	5.0	0 |	64	836  13.1	8 | <-- QB-Jim Harbaugh | 1997 ind |  16 |	 2	 -7   -3.5	0 |	73	866  11.9	6 | <-- QB-Jim Harbaugh| 1998 ind |  12 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |	59	776  13.2	7 | <-- QB-Peyton Manning| 1999 ind |  16 |	 1	  4	4.0	0 |   115   1663  14.5   12 || 2000 ind |  16 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |   102   1413  13.9   14 || 2001 ind |  16 |	 1	  3	3.0	0 |   109   1524  14.0   15 || 2002 ind |  16 |	 2	 10	5.0	0 |   143   1722  12.0   11 || 2003 ind |  15 |	 1	  3	3.0	0 |	94   1272  13.5   10 || 2004 ind |  16 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |	86   1113  12.9   15 || 2005 ind |  15 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |	82   1146  14.0   12 || 2006 ind |  16 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |	95   1366  14.4   12 || 2007 ind |   4 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |	17	231  13.6	1 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+|  TOTAL   | 174 |	10	 28	2.8	0 |  1039  13928  13.4  123 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

As good as Harrison has been with Peyton, it's mind boggling to think of how good he could have been with Warner, Faulk, and Holt.

 

[30283]

Actually, at the time.... 836/8 coulda been one of the greatest rook seasons in history at that time (think pre-boldin, pre-colston, pre-moss). So it's half correct.

According to my calculations, 836 yards would have been the 34th-best rookie season at the time (in terms of receiving yards). He was only the fourth-best rookie in his own rookie year (Glenn, Kennison, and Keyshawn).

Kennison went 18th Overall to the Rams, while Marvin went 19th to the Colts...I'm not saying anything other than what if the picks were Marvin at 18 to the Rams, and Eddie at 19 to the Colts?

EDDIE KENNISON				 +--------------------------+-------------------------+				 |		  Rushing		 |		Receiving		|+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| Year  TM |   G |   Att  Yards	Y/A   TD |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 1996 stl |  15 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |	54	924  17.1	9 | <-- QB-Tony Banks| 1997 stl |  14 |	 3	 13	4.3	0 |	25	404  16.2	0 | <-- QB-Tony Banks| 1998 stl |  16 |	 2	  9	4.5	0 |	17	234  13.8	1 | <-- QB-Tony Banks| 1999 nor |  16 |	 3	 20	6.7	0 |	61	835  13.7	4 | <-- Joins Saints with 2 Billy Joe's, Rams get Warner, Faulk, Holt| 2000 chi |  16 |	 3	 72   24.0	0 |	55	549  10.0	2 | <-- QB-Shane Matthews/Cade McCown| 2001 den |   8 |	 3	  9	3.0	0 |	15	169  11.3	1 | <-- QB-Brian Griese| 2001 kan |   5 |	 2	 13	6.5	0 |	16	322  20.1	0 | <-- QB-Trent Green| 2002 kan |  16 |	 7	 58	8.3	0 |	53	906  17.1	2 || 2003 kan |  16 |	 2	  9	4.5	0 |	56	853  15.2	5 || 2004 kan |  14 |	 2	 15	7.5	0 |	62   1086  17.5	8 || 2005 kan |  16 |	 7	 43	6.1	0 |	68   1102  16.2	5 || 2006 kan |  16 |	 4	 16	4.0	0 |	53	860  16.2	5 || 2007 kan |   2 |	 1	  5	5.0	0 |	 0	  0   0.0	0 | <-- Missed 4 games, QB-Damon Huard+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+|  TOTAL   | 170 |	39	282	7.2	0 |   535   8244  15.4   42 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+MARVIN HARRISON				 +--------------------------+-------------------------+				 |		  Rushing		 |		Receiving		|+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| Year  TM |   G |   Att  Yards	Y/A   TD |   Rec  Yards   Y/R   TD |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+| 1996 ind |  16 |	 3	 15	5.0	0 |	64	836  13.1	8 | <-- QB-Jim Harbaugh | 1997 ind |  16 |	 2	 -7   -3.5	0 |	73	866  11.9	6 | <-- QB-Jim Harbaugh| 1998 ind |  12 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |	59	776  13.2	7 | <-- QB-Peyton Manning| 1999 ind |  16 |	 1	  4	4.0	0 |   115   1663  14.5   12 || 2000 ind |  16 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |   102   1413  13.9   14 || 2001 ind |  16 |	 1	  3	3.0	0 |   109   1524  14.0   15 || 2002 ind |  16 |	 2	 10	5.0	0 |   143   1722  12.0   11 || 2003 ind |  15 |	 1	  3	3.0	0 |	94   1272  13.5   10 || 2004 ind |  16 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |	86   1113  12.9   15 || 2005 ind |  15 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |	82   1146  14.0   12 || 2006 ind |  16 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |	95   1366  14.4   12 || 2007 ind |   4 |	 0	  0	0.0	0 |	17	231  13.6	1 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+|  TOTAL   | 174 |	10	 28	2.8	0 |  1039  13928  13.4  123 |+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

As good as Harrison has been with Peyton, it's mind boggling to think of how good he could have been with Warner, Faulk, and Holt.

I kind of doubt the Rams would have drafted Holt if they already had Harrison and Bruce. But who knows. Was Vermeil the coach at the time when Holt was drafted? Martz OC?

 

[culdeus]

Why is everyone so sure he's a 1st ballot HOFer?

 

[LILB811]

Why is everyone so sure he's a 1st ballot HOFer?

Just look at the post above you, the part where it shows some stats

 

[duaneok66]

Why is everyone so sure he's a 1st ballot HOFer?

you are kidding, I hope . . .

 

[sho nuff]

Would like to hear some thoughts on this. Marvin hasn't done much this year and at 34(IIRC) may be nearing the end of his run. How much has Marvin benefited from playing his entire career with and building such a good repor(sp?) with Peyton? Off the top of my head, it seems that Marvin never did very well in playoff games either, if anyone has some stats on this I would be interested to see. Is Harrison an elite talent, or are there a lot of WRs that would have done as well or better if they had the opportunity to play their entire careers with Manning? Perhaps we will learn more as the season goes along if Harrison continues to decline or misses more games, whether the Colts miss a beat. Your thoughts?

The guy is one of the best.Sure good WRs benefit from playing with good QBs.But I have never seen another WR make his legs go dead and make the catches on the sidelines like Harrison.The guy is not the most physically gifted, but works hard and gets the job done.

 

[culdeus]

Why is everyone so sure he's a 1st ballot HOFer?

Just look at the post above you, the part where it shows some stats

That's all well and good, but the HOF is putting in tons of old guys now and only do 6 a year which squeezes out some of the new guys that might get in. It depends on when he retires and who is up for it with him. I've never thought of him as "clearly the best" in any year. Top 5, sure, but the playoff record sure puts a damper on a solid career. I mean Monk just on his stats you'd think was a lock, but he never made it and probably never will. The NFLHOF has a very high bar for WRs. Higher than any of the skill posistions BY FAR and now they are really putting in lots of OL/DL types. He's no rubber stamp 1st ballot.

 

[thayman]

Why is everyone so sure he's a 1st ballot HOFer?

Just look at the post above you, the part where it shows some stats

That's all well and good, but the HOF is putting in tons of old guys now and only do 6 a year which squeezes out some of the new guys that might get in. It depends on when he retires and who is up for it with him. I've never thought of him as "clearly the best" in any year. Top 5, sure, but the playoff record sure puts a damper on a solid career. I mean Monk just on his stats you'd think was a lock, but he never made it and probably never will. The NFLHOF has a very high bar for WRs. Higher than any of the skill posistions BY FAR and now they are really putting in lots of OL/DL types. He's no rubber stamp 1st ballot.

He's 4th in receptions and receiving yards. He's 3rd in TD receptions, and with 7 more he will pass Carter for the #2 spot.In 2002 he set the record for most receptions all time,and led all WRs in yards and receptoins, in 2005 he lead the league in TD receptions.If Harrison doesn't make it then no WR will.

 

[culdeus]

Why is everyone so sure he's a 1st ballot HOFer?

Just look at the post above you, the part where it shows some stats

That's all well and good, but the HOF is putting in tons of old guys now and only do 6 a year which squeezes out some of the new guys that might get in. It depends on when he retires and who is up for it with him. I've never thought of him as "clearly the best" in any year. Top 5, sure, but the playoff record sure puts a damper on a solid career. I mean Monk just on his stats you'd think was a lock, but he never made it and probably never will. The NFLHOF has a very high bar for WRs. Higher than any of the skill posistions BY FAR and now they are really putting in lots of OL/DL types. He's no rubber stamp 1st ballot.

He's 4th in receptions and receiving yards. He's 3rd in TD receptions, and with 7 more he will pass Carter for the #2 spot.In 2002 he set the record for most receptions all time,and led all WRs in yards and receptoins, in 2005 he lead the league in TD receptions.If Harrison doesn't make it then no WR will.

Yeah, but remember the NFL hasn't played this many games nor passed this much in it's history. If his numbers aren't a product of the system they are at least a product of the times.

 

[thayman]

Why is everyone so sure he's a 1st ballot HOFer?

Just look at the post above you, the part where it shows some stats

That's all well and good, but the HOF is putting in tons of old guys now and only do 6 a year which squeezes out some of the new guys that might get in. It depends on when he retires and who is up for it with him. I've never thought of him as "clearly the best" in any year. Top 5, sure, but the playoff record sure puts a damper on a solid career. I mean Monk just on his stats you'd think was a lock, but he never made it and probably never will. The NFLHOF has a very high bar for WRs. Higher than any of the skill posistions BY FAR and now they are really putting in lots of OL/DL types. He's no rubber stamp 1st ballot.

He's 4th in receptions and receiving yards. He's 3rd in TD receptions, and with 7 more he will pass Carter for the #2 spot.In 2002 he set the record for most receptions all time,and led all WRs in yards and receptoins, in 2005 he lead the league in TD receptions.If Harrison doesn't make it then no WR will.

Yeah, but remember the NFL hasn't played this many games nor passed this much in it's history. If his numbers aren't a product of the system they are at least a product of the times.

Those stats are since 1960. The NFL went from a 14 to a 16 game schedule in 1978 IIRC. So that's 29 years, a pretty decent sample size.ETA: They haven't Passed much?? what does that mean?? Stats shouldn't count because they pass more now??

 

[Emerson Biggens]

that 1996 draft in addition to Harrison, Keyshawn, Glenn, and Kennison also had Eric Moulds at 24th overall. I may be biased, but I think he had as much or more overall talent and combination of tools with speed, hands, size, strength, route running, athletic ability, etc than any of the other ones listed. I would love to have seen what he could have done with a QB like Peyton.

 

[culdeus]

Why is everyone so sure he's a 1st ballot HOFer?

Just look at the post above you, the part where it shows some stats

That's all well and good, but the HOF is putting in tons of old guys now and only do 6 a year which squeezes out some of the new guys that might get in. It depends on when he retires and who is up for it with him. I've never thought of him as "clearly the best" in any year. Top 5, sure, but the playoff record sure puts a damper on a solid career. I mean Monk just on his stats you'd think was a lock, but he never made it and probably never will. The NFLHOF has a very high bar for WRs. Higher than any of the skill posistions BY FAR and now they are really putting in lots of OL/DL types. He's no rubber stamp 1st ballot.

He's 4th in receptions and receiving yards. He's 3rd in TD receptions, and with 7 more he will pass Carter for the #2 spot.In 2002 he set the record for most receptions all time,and led all WRs in yards and receptoins, in 2005 he lead the league in TD receptions.If Harrison doesn't make it then no WR will.

Yeah, but remember the NFL hasn't played this many games nor passed this much in it's history. If his numbers aren't a product of the system they are at least a product of the times.

Those stats are since 1960. The NFL went from a 14 to a 16 game schedule in 1978 IIRC. So that's 29 years, a pretty decent sample size.ETA: They haven't Passed much?? what does that mean?? Stats shouldn't count because they pass more now??

Someone posted a "normalized" career stats list allowing comparison of WRs across generations in this manner. Even taking out the Manning factor the guys right now including 85, TO, Moss, etc. did not fare well to those in or those coming up (with the notable PIT exception). The search function is even less effective here than in the FFA so I've not found it yet.

 

[Assani Fisher]

Why is everyone so sure he's a 1st ballot HOFer?

Just look at the post above you, the part where it shows some stats

That's all well and good, but the HOF is putting in tons of old guys now and only do 6 a year which squeezes out some of the new guys that might get in. It depends on when he retires and who is up for it with him. I've never thought of him as "clearly the best" in any year. Top 5, sure, but the playoff record sure puts a damper on a solid career. I mean Monk just on his stats you'd think was a lock, but he never made it and probably never will. The NFLHOF has a very high bar for WRs. Higher than any of the skill posistions BY FAR and now they are really putting in lots of OL/DL types. He's no rubber stamp 1st ballot.

Art Monk's avearge year:795 yards4 TDs58 catchesMarvin Harrison's average year(not including this year since its incomplete):1245 yards11 TDs92 catchesI realize that its a different era, but these numbers are staggering.Think of it this way: Monk never even had 9 TDs in a season, Monk only had one season with more than 92 catches, Monk only had one season with more than 1245 yards.To think that those are Marvin's AVERAGES is just insane imo.

 

[Assani Fisher]

Why is everyone so sure he's a 1st ballot HOFer?

Just look at the post above you, the part where it shows some stats

That's all well and good, but the HOF is putting in tons of old guys now and only do 6 a year which squeezes out some of the new guys that might get in. It depends on when he retires and who is up for it with him. I've never thought of him as "clearly the best" in any year. Top 5, sure, but the playoff record sure puts a damper on a solid career. I mean Monk just on his stats you'd think was a lock, but he never made it and probably never will. The NFLHOF has a very high bar for WRs. Higher than any of the skill posistions BY FAR and now they are really putting in lots of OL/DL types. He's no rubber stamp 1st ballot.

He's 4th in receptions and receiving yards. He's 3rd in TD receptions, and with 7 more he will pass Carter for the #2 spot.In 2002 he set the record for most receptions all time,and led all WRs in yards and receptoins, in 2005 he lead the league in TD receptions.

If Harrison doesn't make it then no WR will.

Yeah, but remember the NFL hasn't played this many games nor passed this much in it's history. If his numbers aren't a product of the system they are at least a product of the times.

Even if you just compare him to his contemporaries:Marvin Harrison

Receptions: 1999-2, 2000-1t, 2001-3, 2002-1, 2003-7, 2006-3

Receiving yards: 1999-1, 2000-6, 2001-2, 2002-1, 2003-6, 2005-10, 2006-2

Receiving TDs: 1999-2t, 2000-2, 2001-2, 2002-3, 2003-4t, 2004-2, 2005-1t, 2006-2

Art Monk

Receptions: 1984-1, 1985-2, 1988-9t, 1989-3t

Receiving yards: 1984-4, 1985-3, 1989-10

Receiving TDs: 1991-9t

 

[KellysHeroes]

Marv is one the best... the pass happy system and a great QB helped him boost his #s... but don't get it twisted; Marv was great in his hey day.

 

[30283]

bump

well, after a decent sample size of 6 or 7 weeks of marvin being out, i would say the colts and especially manning have definitely missed a beat. peyton has looked pretty pedestrian without his number 1 reciever.

 

[Da Guru]

I think many players are products of the system and who surrounds them.

Emmitt Smith and Joe Montana come to mind.

Had Emmitt been drafted by the Lions we would be saying Emmitt who? Montana was a good QB, but Walshs system fit him perfectly, and throw in Jerry Rice and he was a great QB.

 

[Mikey16x]

The system is a product of Marvin Harrison