What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Is Shohei Ohtani the greatest baseball player of all time? (4 Viewers)

timschochet said:
It’s a question, not a statement. But I think it’s a legitimate question at this point. Certainly I will say that THIS statement is true: his last appearance (6 shutout innings, 3 home runs) is the greatest single performance ever in MLB history.
Click to expand...
Yes.

If only we had a way to log everyone’s votes on this forum.
 
timschochet said:
I’ve been wondering if Ohtani’s success won’t cause more young baseball players to decide that they don’t need to choose between pitching and batting, they can do both. Why not?
Click to expand...
It's generally not up to the player. All of them want to do both and do until a coach stops them from doing both.

Typically if you are a very good pitcher the coach will stop you from hitting because of the injury risk (getting hit in the hand or elbow).

Generally it's not up to the player.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zow
I really have no explanation, but I think maybe baseball coaches, managers, scouts, from the most basic youth level on up have simply misevaluated everything about baseball. Why is SO playing both ways, how did it happen? Ruth did it, and they made him stop. I don’t think it’s an accident it happened outside the US. There have been good hitting pitchers in the past but the skills were not honed. I’d love to know SO’s path to getting here. I suspect something similar has been going on in football with the uses of positions, the rules of the game & skill players.

I just wish the Red Sox had signed him. Yes, I’m an irrational sports fan.
 
Last edited:
When you surround him with a team that would break the bank of a small nation...

Edit: his post season was really *** except for game four, and Teooscar and Muncy came though, but tim doesn't watch sports, or know much about them, so you have this as a thread in the FFA.

The Dodger pitching is why they are back in the WS. If it weren't for Roberts tossing a bone to Clayton Chokeshaw in the post season, they could had posted a perfect win total despite Otahni's really poor post season stretch. He was *** this post season. The betting markets had Freeman the NLCS MVP until game four. Edman was the NLCS MVP last NLCS with Ohtani on the team. . Onve again. tim has no idea of what he is talking about.
 
Last edited:
drummer said:
When you surround him with a team that would break the bank of a small nation...

Edit: his post season was really *** except for game four, and Teooscar and Muncy came though, but tim doesn't watch sports, or know much about them, so you have this as a thread in the FFA.

The Dodger pitching is why they are back in the WS. If it weren't for Roberts tossing a bone to Clayton Chokeshaw in the post season, they could had posted a perfect win total despite Otahni's really poor post season stretch. He was *** this post season. The betting markets had Freeman the NLCS MVP until game four. Edman was the NLCS MVP last NLCS with Ohtani on the team. . Onve again. tim has no idea of what he is talking about.
Click to expand...

There are several advanced metrics that support Tim's topic.
 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
I really have no explanation, but I think maybe baseball coaches, managers, scouts, from the most basic youth level on up have simply misevaluated everything about baseball. Why is SO playing both ways, how did it happen? Ruth did it, and they made him stop. I don’t think it’s an accident it happened outside the US. There have been good hitting pitchers in the past but the skills were not honed. I’d love to know SO’s path to getting here. I suspect something similar has been going on in football with the uses of positions, the rules of the game & skill players.

I just wish the Red Sox had signed him. Yes, I’m an irrational sports fan.
Click to expand...
Red Sox had their chance. With Ruth anyways.
 
Cappy is right in that they’re is really no argument that Ohtani is physically and mentally a better athlete and baseball player- by every metric. Yes. He is more talented and athletic than Ruth and many others- but not all or even most.

Is he the best baseball player ever? Not even close.

He’s also only played 8 years. His postseason prior to this was pretty bad.

Probably the best single game ever but the door is still wide open for others cause it wasn’t game 7 of a world Series.
 
I wondered why Ruth didn’t have more MVPs and learned this:

Babe Ruth won only one MVP award because he was only eligible for it once during the 1922–1929 era when the award had a "no repeat winners" rule. He won the award in 1923, which prevented him from being eligible for the honor in subsequent years, even when he had dominant seasons like 1927. The official MVP award didn't exist until 1931, but the "League Awards" from 1922-1929 had this restriction.
Click to expand...
 
STEADYMOBBIN 22 said:
I wondered why Ruth didn’t have more MVPs and learned this:

Babe Ruth won only one MVP award because he was only eligible for it once during the 1922–1929 era when the award had a "no repeat winners" rule. He won the award in 1923, which prevented him from being eligible for the honor in subsequent years, even when he had dominant seasons like 1927. The official MVP award didn't exist until 1931, but the "League Awards" from 1922-1929 had this restriction.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
A no repeat winners rule? Kinda weird rule. Learn something new everyday.
 
Let me start by saying this guy has nearly signal handedly pulled me back into being a baseball fan. Just a remarkable and unique talent that is a joy to watch. Now. Baseball is the gold standard of the importance accumulating stats. It's everything. He has 280 career hrs and 2 seasons of double digit wins as a pitcher. Just a remarkable player, but at this stage in his career he just can't be considered the greatest baseball player of all time in my humble opinion. Yet. Through debate you can sway me, but for now, thats just like my opinion man.
 
Last edited:
Ohtani is a special, special player no doubt. And it's near impossible to compare what he is doing against the likes of Ruth, Mays, etc... as they are not his contemporaries, and things were just different back then. There were fewer players both due to exclusivity and fewer teams. There were probably not PED's. And so many more differences, like the prevalence of the NBA and NFL which take away special athletes from the player pool.
But how soon we forget about Mike Trout. From 2012-2019 the guy averaged 35 hrs, 25 sbs, an OPS over 1.000, and OPS+ of 178, a 9.0 WAR and he won 3 MVP's, with 4 second place finishes and one fourth. Every damn year he was in the top 4 of MVP voting. And now, he doesn't even get mentioned as one of the best players ever. There is something to be said for sample size for sure if you want to be considered the greatest ever.
 
guru_007 said:
There is something to be said for sample size for sure if you want to be considered the greatest ever.
Click to expand...
As someone posted up thread, Baseball is a sport of longevity. It's 162 games per year. It's a grind and tough mentally. The greatest in the sport have to have longevity to be considered. It's kind of the backbone of the sport. It's a day after day after day grind and that takes a special mental and physical toughness that matter. Ohtani needs to do it for longer to be in that category of Greatest Ever.
 
drummer said:
When you surround him with a team that would break the bank of a small nation...

Edit: his post season was really *** except for game four, and Teooscar and Muncy came though, but tim doesn't watch sports, or know much about them, so you have this as a thread in the FFA.

The Dodger pitching is why they are back in the WS. If it weren't for Roberts tossing a bone to Clayton Chokeshaw in the post season, they could had posted a perfect win total despite Otahni's really poor post season stretch. He was *** this post season. The betting markets had Freeman the NLCS MVP until game four. Edman was the NLCS MVP last NLCS with Ohtani on the team. . Onve again. tim has no idea of what he is talking about.
Click to expand...
I have no idea why you want to personally insult me.
Also, I never raised the subject of whether or not the Dodgers are a great team or if Ohtani is the reason they are a great team. So your entire response here is irrelevant.

I thought it was an interesting topic of conversation. I am certainly not the only one who has raised it. It’s all over sports talk. I thought it would be fun to get people to talk about it here. Judging by the responses I was right about that. If you disagree why bother posting?
 
drummer said:
When you surround him with a team that would break the bank of a small nation...

Edit: his post season was really *** except for game four, and Teooscar and Muncy came though, but tim doesn't watch sports, or know much about them, so you have this as a thread in the FFA.

The Dodger pitching is why they are back in the WS. If it weren't for Roberts tossing a bone to Clayton Chokeshaw in the post season, they could had posted a perfect win total despite Otahni's really poor post season stretch. He was *** this post season. The betting markets had Freeman the NLCS MVP until game four. Edman was the NLCS MVP last NLCS with Ohtani on the team. . Onve again. tim has no idea of what he is talking about.
Click to expand...
must have been quite the evening of adult beverages....
 
Chaz McNulty said:
Babe Ruth.

Considering that the HR record he broke was at 27 and had stood since 1884. Ruth was a freak in his era. He broke the record with 29 HR's and then the next year hit 54.
Click to expand...
I think it's Ruth as well. I understand the arguments against him, but I'd be more persuaded if he wasn't such a statistical outlier. He wasn't just a little bit better than his contemporaries but in a completely different realm. In 1920 there were on average 0.2 HR/game. It bounces around year by year but didn't permanently go above 0.5 until the late 40s. Now it's above 1.0 and some years above 1.2. Combine that data with Ruth more than doubling the nearest competitor some years and you need to think of Ruth as being the equivalent of someone hitting 120 or 130 home runs today. This doesn't even take into account the HRs "lost" by the old rule that in his day a ball that landed foul was foul even if it was fair when it cleared the outfield wall. If you add in the fact that he was an elite pitcher I just don't see how it's a contest.
 
I feel like a large part of Ohtani's appeal is the novelty of a hitter who pitches, because that's so rare these days. He pitched 47 innings this season and was 1-1. My hat's off to the guy for sure. But Willie Mays is out there completely owning center field 150-160 games a year, winning 12 golden gloves while also winning MVPs, batting titles, HR crowns and leading the league in stolen bases. Baseball guys love the "5-tool player," the unicorns who hit for power and average while also stealing bases and are great in the field - Mays, Griffey Jr., A-Rod. Ohtani is more of a 3 tool guy. I'm not ready to crown his *** just yet.
 
Dr_Zaius said:
Chaz McNulty said:
Babe Ruth.

Considering that the HR record he broke was at 27 and had stood since 1884. Ruth was a freak in his era. He broke the record with 29 HR's and then the next year hit 54.
Click to expand...
I think it's Ruth as well. I understand the arguments against him, but I'd be more persuaded if he wasn't such a statistical outlier. He wasn't just a little bit better than his contemporaries but in a completely different realm. In 1920 there were on average 0.2 HR/game. It bounces around year by year but didn't permanently go above 0.5 until the late 40s. Now it's above 1.0 and some years above 1.2. Combine that data with Ruth more than doubling the nearest competitor some years and you need to think of Ruth as being the equivalent of someone hitting 120 or 130 home runs today. This doesn't even take into account the HRs "lost" by the old rule that in his day a ball that landed foul was foul even if it was fair when it cleared the outfield wall. If you add in the fact that he was an elite pitcher I just don't see how it's a contest.
Click to expand...
Yes, when compared to Ruth's peers it wasn't close then.
 
FarFromHome said:
Zegras11 said:
More like Sandy Koufax and Reggie IMO

Easily the best ever. Babe didn;t do both full time.
Click to expand...
Except Koufax had 165 wins and 2300 strikeouts compared to 39 wins and 670 strikeouts. They just arent the same.
Click to expand...
pfftt, I doubt Koufax struck out 10, hit 3 home runs all while sweating a 6 Team parlay with NBA and College Football picks... :banned:
 
Ohtani probably needs more longevity, but what he is doing is pretty unreal.

I find it hard to judge players that pre-dated when I started watching, but I know that Barry Bonds and Albert Pujols are the two best I have ever seen. Ohtani has a chance to surpass them both.
 
He struck out the side then led the bottom of the inning off with a home run. Unheard of.

Babe Ruth never hit 3 HR while pitching, and rarely struck out 10+.
Ohtani has 10+ strikeouts 22 times.
 
Yes. He was the GOAT of Japan baseball before he came to the league. The first time he made the playoffs here, he won a ring. The very next season, he makes it to the World Series again and has arguably the best game MLB history along the way. The year that he was hurt where he couldn’t pitch, he showed off that he could be one of the best base stealers in the game.
 
jvdesigns2002 said:
Yes. He was the GOAT of Japan baseball before he came to the league. The first time he made the playoffs here, he won a ring. The very next season, he makes it to the World Series again and has arguably the best game MLB history along the way. The year that he was hurt where he couldn’t pitch, he showed off that he could be one of the best base stealers in the game.
Click to expand...

Ohtani's statistics in Japan were good but didn't suggest the type of hitter he'd become. He came over the MLB very young for a Japanese player so his NPB are affected by youth a bit but his lifetime slash line for the Ham Fighters was .286/.358/.500 with 48 HRs and only 13 SBs in almost 1200 PAs. His strikeouts as a hitter were high enough in Japan that there were some questions about whether his hit tool would translate. The GOAT of Japanese baseball is still Sadaharu Oh.

He was a very good pitcher in Japan and had great stuff so there was less concern about that when he signed his first American contract.
 
Cowboysfan8 said:
Dr. Manhattan said:
He struck out the side then led the bottom of the inning off with a home run. Unheard of.
Click to expand...
And, again…Ruth was facing guys that had full time blue collar jobs during the day lol.
Also, no blacks or Latinos
Click to expand...
I want to address this argument because I don’t think it’s fair. While I do lean towards Ohtani in any comparison vs Ruth, I’ve never bought into the argument that we should diminish Ruth’s accomplishments because the leagues were segregated.

If we do that we have to also eliminate almost all baseball players until around 1960 or so. You can’t start with Jackie Robinson because there was only a handful of black players for the first decade after Jackie. That means you eliminate Ted Williams, Joe DiMaggio, and all the other greats, not to mention the greats during Ruth’s era like Rogers Hornsby, Lou Gehrig, Ty Cobb, etc.

As far as your blue collar comment, that’s only true because athletes weren’t paid what they deserved back then. They were still the best athletes of the era. Ironically, Ruth’s stardom did more to create the well-paid athlete in team sports than probably any other single factor.

I think that when we judge an athlete like Ruth or Ohtani we have to judge them against their peers. I don’t rank Ohtani above Ruth because of their eras; I rank Ohtani above Ruth because he is an elite pitcher and an elite power hitter at the same time.
 
Cowboysfan8 said:
Dr. Manhattan said:
He struck out the side then led the bottom of the inning off with a home run. Unheard of.
Click to expand...
And, again…Ruth was facing guys that had full time blue collar jobs during the day lol.
Also, no blacks or Latinos
Click to expand...
All he did was prove that he was twice as good (or more) than the 2nd best player in the league. And the 2nd best player was also playing in a segregated league.

This is just my opinion below.

Probably more than any other athletic skill, hitting is a skill that you are mostly born with. 10% coordination and 60% reaction time (or there about). Experience makes up the rest.
I honestly believe if you took a 12 year old Babe Ruth and transported him into todays youth baseball, he would still end up being an incredible hitter by the time he was 20.
I could not say the same for his pitching because of too many other factors that go into it.
 
timschochet said:
If we do that we have to also eliminate almost all baseball players until around 1960 or so. You can’t start with Jackie Robinson because there was only a handful of black players for the first decade after Jackie. That means you eliminate Ted Williams, Joe DiMaggio, and all the other greats, not to mention the greats during Ruth’s era like Rogers Hornsby, Lou Gehrig, Ty Cobb, etc.
Click to expand...
You can even use this same logic to pooh pooh players in the 60s and 70s because Latin America's talent was largely not making it to the major leagues at that time, and none of the Japanese players were coming over yet either of course. The fact that the player pool was smaller is absolutely a factor, but I find the argument that it fully swamps and negates the huge gap between Ruth and his contemporaries unpersuasive.
 
I haven't read the whole thread so it's probably been mentioned but one big advantage Ohtani has that Babe didn't is the DH rule. I don't think he could do what he's doing if he had to play in the field for 9 innings every day when he's not pitching.
 
Zow said:
I do believe that was the greatest single game performance.

I still maintain nonetheless that Ruth is #1.* He pitched and literally out-homered teams. Steroids Bonds was the greatest hitter ever. Griffey, Speaker, or Mays were the greatest hitter/fielders ever. Hank Aaron for longevity and consistency.

*Not coincidentally, to me Ohtani is the modern day Ruth.
Click to expand...

:goodposting:
 
Capella said:
Zow said:
Capella said:
Yes, obviously. Anybody saying some big ol potato headed player from a 110 years ago who never faced a player with any pigmentation is better is nuts.
Click to expand...
Hot take
Click to expand...
Not even slightly a hot take, it’s like saying some swimmer from the 50s is better than Phelps.
Click to expand...
That would only be true if that swimmer from the 50s was beating his competition like Secretariat in the Belmont and set records that weren't beaten until the turn of the century.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zow
For me, "greatest baseball player of all time" requires one of the greatest careers of all time, as opposed to assessing which player had the strongest peak season or string of a few seasons (or game).

No way I could say Ohtani is a "greater" baseball player than Ruth, Mays, Aaaron, et al. I would say the same about Bonds, as I don't share the same views as all about the steroid era. Those players played 1K to 2K more games in their careers than Ohtani has played. "Best of all time" requires more longevity than Ohtani has, by a long shot in baseball. For me, it's not close.

I can agree that his 3 homer, 10 K game is the best single game performance of all time. That is a completely different thing.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Scoresman
The Top 300 Greatest TV Shows of All Time: FBG Consensus: 50 Lists received. 2: Seinfeld 1: Breaking Bad
145 146 147
Replies
7K
Views
431K
Psychopav
Psychopav
hooter311
Wisconsin High School Athlete of the Week 6/20/24
Replies
30
Views
1K
hooter311
hooter311
timschochet
The 100 Greatest movies of the 1990s 1. Goodfellas
64 65 66
Replies
3K
Views
228K
shuke
shuke

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)
Back
Top