Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I am excited about the prospect of maybe not voting for a third party candidate for President in this selection, though that chance is somewhat remote right now.
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Is Voting 3rd Party A Wasted Vote? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter KiddLattimer
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Terminalxylem
Footballguy
Meh, at least not for presidential elections in non-swing states. Regardless, it’s probably more important you pay your taxes and obey the law, among other duties you have as a citizen.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
In theory? Absolutely not. Currently in the real world? I believe so, unless your goals and aims and those of your loved ones are equally served (or unserved) by both parties, or unless you would not vote otherwise. Kind of depends on the individual, I think.
Mr Anonymous
Footballguy
This couldn't be more false and it's disheartening to hear. If the number of people who vote 3rd party continues to build, it will one day make a 3rd party a viable competitor to the current two major parties. The more that people are told that its a wasted vote, in a contested state or otherwise, the steeper the hill to climb in creating a much needed, viable 3rd party. There is no such thing as a wasted vote. Even a vote for Mickey Mouse, says there are people so dissatisfied with the given choices that they went out of their way to cast a vote for someone who could not win. But with regard to a true 3rd party candidate, there are no wasted votes, no matter what the rationalization for calling it "wasted".
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
Most barely know and will never admit to how much marketing has to do with what is in their heads. That's 95% of the reason i still post here.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
I'll argue a variation of the above argument about president versus local races. Until a third party is willing to invest in a bottom up approach where they build a presence in local government and then county and then state and then federal and then... I think it unreasonable for any third party to have expectations other than as an occasional voice to some ideas. Since we saw the "take over" of the GOP in the aftermath of the 1988 election and the build out of just such an infrastructure such that 6 years later they won Congress for the first time in decades and now 30 years later have succeeded in having an electoral advantage such that they win offices even when they get fewer votes that taking this route does show results. It is possible because so many don't find reasons to vote now such that just a small percentage of motivated voters can make a difference in lots of otherwise forgotten races. But keep running out candidates for presidents that get less than 1% in most years with under 4% the high water mark and these parties are pretty much the waste. Come on guys "grass roots" doesn't happen "top down".
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
If my third party vote is tending towards the conservative and the conservatives lose by the margin of folks who went that third party are they likely to consider shifting their stance to try to capture those votes? How about the liberals in the alternative direction?
Recognizing of course that votes captured must offset and exceed votes forgone as some may leave or not vote if the parties movement alienates them. Still, it is a way of speaking, of persuading.
Recognizing of course that votes captured must offset and exceed votes forgone as some may leave or not vote if the parties movement alienates them. Still, it is a way of speaking, of persuading.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Depends on whether their existing stance is currently closer to you and those third parties or closer to enough liberals they could pull over.
Gustavo Fring
Footballguy
Absolutely not a wasted vote - every vote counts or something.
ren hoek
Footballguy
I wouldn’t hand Trump 2 cents to manage money. I wouldn’t trust Hillary Clinton to water a plant. But we were supposed to choose one of these people to run the most powerful apparatus on the entire earth? How insulting that is.
The two-party system is basically two different flavors of oligarchy. It’s the illusion of a real choice. Swing state or not, you pick the person you think is the best, period. If everyone did that, we wouldn’t have to worry about picking the least worst. I’d rather people not vote than “hold their nose” and foist straightup garbage on the rest of us.
The two-party system is basically two different flavors of oligarchy. It’s the illusion of a real choice. Swing state or not, you pick the person you think is the best, period. If everyone did that, we wouldn’t have to worry about picking the least worst. I’d rather people not vote than “hold their nose” and foist straightup garbage on the rest of us.
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Mr Anonymous
Footballguy
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
When someone tells you it's a wasted vote, they really mean that they wanted you to vote for their choice. Ask them who they wanted you to vote for and then tell them you were voting for the other guy had you not voted 3rd party. Then they will tell you that you didn't waste your vote. 
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
Dickies
Footballguy
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
I don't agree.When someone tells you it's a wasted vote, they really mean that they wanted you to vote for their choice. Ask them who they wanted you to vote for and then tell them you were voting for the other guy had you not voted 3rd party. Then they will tell you that you didn't waste your vote.
If you want Donald Trump to win, would you prefer Anti Trump folks vote for the 3rd party candidate or the Democratic candidate?
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Dickies
Footballguy
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
Self-delusion is a powerful thing. They can rationalize their vote all they want - doesn't mean it isn't wasted.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I agree more with this. I think it's more of a "waste" when I talk to people and they put 0 thought into their vote.
If someone truly doesn't like the D or R stance or the two party system, why in the world would it be a waste if they cast their vote that way- swing state or no.
I despise Trump, and I live in WI. Chances are I will be voting 3rd party yet again next November. That is usually the candidate I align with most, so that's who I vote for.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
So if a person's goal is to vote for the person best suited for office, and that person is 3rd party, they are wasting their vote if they vote accordingly? I just cant get behind this.
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
Under the assumption the 3rd party doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell to win - yes, absolutely.
sho nuff
Footballguy
How is it wasted? Hillary didn't have a chance to win this state either...is voting for anyone but the winner a waste?
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Sure but there is little chance that Gary "in the weeds" Johnson is going to be doing presidential press conferences, yet alone doing them with his tongue sticking out. Nor would Jill "no need to understand" Stein being actually elected. So third party voters can safely make their protest vote, or vote for generic ideal that the party represents whether or not the candidate does, etc.
So while the actual candidates in no way, shape, or form clear the so called "earn my vote" that disqualifies major candidates so blindly voting third party isn't quite the same. Usually it has little to do with the actual candidate but other ideals.
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
See, this makes no sense. If you despise Trump, more than likely, the Democratic candidate will be quite a bit different. When you draw a Venn diagram there would be very little overlap. IMO, people who vote for a 3rd party candidate are putting 0 thought into their vote because one of the people that can actually win are obviously better than the other. If they can't reason why one is better than the other - whatever their criteria is - then they aren't putting enough thought into the voting process and how it works in the first place.
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
No, but voting for anyone that literally has zero chance of winning is a waste.
Even in a "solid" red/blue state the likelihood of the underdog winning is far, far greater than some random 3rd party.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
There are a few sites you can go to, answer a ton of questions, and it will give candidates that are most in agreement with your stances. I start there. I also feel strongly that we need more than 2 parties, so if someone I like the most is a 3rd party candidate so be it. Like somebody else pointed out, they need x% of votes for funding and chances to get in debates, so it's not wasted and it's not without thought.
I think buying into the "if you hate Trump, you must vote D" stuff just perpetuates the 2 party system that isn't getting us anywhere.
I just cant buy into the "vote for who can win" sentiment you seem to be all for.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Hillary had zero chance to win this state. If we get enough people to make noise for a viable third party candidate ...that isn't a waste IMO.
And id even much rather wasted my vote than have voted for Trump or Hillary.
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
That right here is the issue. It's your right to waste your vote but don't try to convince yourself that "making noise" is somehow different than wasting your vote. Again, it is just a rationalization to make the voter feel justified to throw away their vote because somehow they have also rationalized that of the 2 parties that could potentially win that they are interchangeable (which they assuredly are not).
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
Sure, but if you did that last election I have a hard time believing that Trump *and* Clinton were neck and neck. There might be some candidate that matches your ideals 100% of the time - and that is great. However, I can pretty much promise you that either Trump or Clinton's ideals would overlap significantly more than the other in regards to your perfect candidate.
MAC_32
Footballguy
In that particular election? Yes, of course it's wasted. The idea is so much bigger than that, but it can only be effective if enough others stop being sheeple. When you are given two awful options that don't align with your priorities then don't vote for them. A not insignificant number of people doing that is the only way you can influence change. Otherwise you're unintentionally enabling the behavior that led to those two awful candidates to repeat themselves.
ren hoek
Footballguy
Voting for a vision of this country that actually reflects your belief system isn't a waste. Call it what you want but it's not a waste. Staying at home to reflect disenchantment with a process that has long since left working people behind isn't a waste either. Both of those positions warrant a lot more respect than compromising your belief system to help pick one of two corporate-owned "winners."sn0mm1s said:
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
And if we view it not as one being better than the other, but one being incrementally the lesser of two evils and a perpetuation of the cycle that gives us increasing evil, what then? Why is not voting to break that cycle valuable? The myopia of seeing only the status quo may color your perception. Look beyond. So often I hear your argument from people who concurrently hold the view that the current system does not serve us well, and yet they support that system, that paradigm.sn0mm1s said:
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
1. It's generally not a good idea to assume that people who make different decisions than you are doing so out of ignorance or thoughtlessness.sn0mm1s said:
2. In most states, there is literally only one person who can actually win. If I vote for a Democrat, or if a resident of California votes for a Republican, their vote has just as much chance of altering the outcome of the election as if they voted third party.
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
If you view it as incrementally the lesser of two evils then you are viewing it incorrectly. Tell me, in the last election, what precisely was evil about Trump and Clinton - so much so that one is only incrementally better than the other. You are erroneously putting Rs & Ds into some sort of procrustean bed and then declaring them equally bad to rationalize wasting your vote.
ren hoek
Footballguy
For one, it doesn’t reinforce broken 2-party duopoly. People that don’t vote don’t give us bad presidents.
They also are expressing their discontent for a process that doesn’t work for them anymore. Some of them are expressing apathy, which isn’t great on the surface but certainly is not as bad as voting for corporations to run other people’s lives, which red/blue votes often are.
Voting by itself isn’t inherently good. We shouldn’t pat ourselves on the back just for voting. Sometimes it means giving your consent for other people to be ruled by evil. It’s consenting to a system that can barely hide its contempt for us.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
People are all up in the effect but, beyond one expressing one's voice, the only effect a vote has lies in its influence upon those soliciting it. Having only voted major party president twice in 47 years, i find no coincidence between the growing disdain for "wasted" votes and declining responsiveness of our government.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I can plainly see that we will never have a meeting of the minds. No worries, we don't have to. I am well familiar with the theory that I am wasting my vote and that I do not perceive the virtues of the candidates or the parties correctly or objectively. I am comfortable with folks in general and you as well thinking such of me. Meanwhile I look at the political landscape and wonder.
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Gopher State
Footballguy
X2Da Guru said:
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
I guess I can post my %s next time I do it if you want, but if I remember right when I did it during the debates when there were multiple from all parties, Clinton was pretty far down my list %-wise. So yeah, if you are saying that she would be 2nd if I am just considering her, Trump, 3rd party at the voting both, but I am talking overall she was pretty far down my list and therefore I thought it was pointless to vote for someone I didn't think would be right for the job.sn0mm1s said:
Just throwing out numbers - there were multiple candidates that were 80%+ in agreement with me, and one was on the ballot in the end. Clinton was something like barely over 50%, and Trump was way down. Sure there is overlap in ideals, but I don't think it's as significant as you might think, nor is it not thought out by 3rd party voter as you try to claim.
Also, this is just one tool I use, and I am just using the examples of policies - that doesn't take into account 3rd party needs votes for funding/debates and other things.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
To me, this is a ridiculous topic, but I guess I'm not surprised its made it to 2 pages of content. Here's the simple fact - none of us has any right whatsoever to tell another how to vote or whom to vote for. Assuming an absence of election fraud (something I'm increasingly concerned with), there is no such thing as a wasted vote. I suppose someone could say I wasted my time voting, but my vote itself always counts. For what its worth, I've voted in every presidential election since 1984 and am certain I've never voted for a winning candidate at the Presidential level in my life.
