Jeff Fisher on NFL Total Access... (1 Viewer)

[LHUCKS]

big ben has run for 213 yards on 87 attempts in his two seasons...how does this make him a mobile QB (and a valid comparison)?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you...didn't want to look it up, but knew his totals weren't much.

 

[Real Man of Genius]

I'm just saying I think he won't get hit as much as most qbs who run, and when he does, he won't tend to take the big shot. Chow has said that's one of the things he likes most about Young.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well if you look at the successful running QBs they were all decidedly smaller than VY...Garcia, Steve Young etc. etc.We will see, but my guess is that VY is going to have to greatly enhance his pocket passing ability if he has any chance at achieving Steve Young like success.

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Randall Cunningham, Donovan McNabb and Daunte Culpepper have been, or are, successful running QBs with size.
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Randall - I'll give you thatDonovan - A decidely better pocket passer coming out of college than VY IMHO, and a lot smarter

Daunte - Mediocre without Moss to bail him out IMHO...I think this is the best comparison for VY.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is really no comparison between VY's running ability and Culpepper's, IMO.

 

[LHUCKS]

I'm just saying I think he won't get hit as much as most qbs who run, and when he does, he won't tend to take the big shot. Chow has said that's one of the things he likes most about Young.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well if you look at the successful running QBs they were all decidedly smaller than VY...Garcia, Steve Young etc. etc.We will see, but my guess is that VY is going to have to greatly enhance his pocket passing ability if he has any chance at achieving Steve Young like success.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Randall Cunningham, Donovan McNabb and Daunte Culpepper have been, or are, successful running QBs with size.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Randall - I'll give you thatDonovan - A decidely better pocket passer coming out of college than VY IMHO, and a lot smarter

Daunte - Mediocre without Moss to bail him out IMHO...I think this is the best comparison for VY.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is really no comparison between VY's running ability and Culpepper's, IMO.
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Didn't C-Pep run a 4.5??

 

[rabidfireweasel]

I'm just saying I think he won't get hit as much as most qbs who run, and when he does, he won't tend to take the big shot. Chow has said that's one of the things he likes most about Young.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well if you look at the successful running QBs they were all decidedly smaller than VY...Garcia, Steve Young etc. etc.We will see, but my guess is that VY is going to have to greatly enhance his pocket passing ability if he has any chance at achieving Steve Young like success.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Randall Cunningham, Donovan McNabb and Daunte Culpepper have been, or are, successful running QBs with size.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Randall - I'll give you thatDonovan - A decidely better pocket passer coming out of college than VY IMHO, and a lot smarter

Daunte - Mediocre without Moss to bail him out IMHO...I think this is the best comparison for VY.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is really no comparison between VY's running ability and Culpepper's, IMO.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Didn't C-Pep run a 4.5??
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Cpep has gotten bigger, fatter and slower ever year since his second. He has never had the open field speed and control of Young. Unlike most QB's, Young is in total control at top speed.

 

[Real Man of Genius]

I'm just saying I think he won't get hit as much as most qbs who run, and when he does, he won't tend to take the big shot. Chow has said that's one of the things he likes most about Young.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well if you look at the successful running QBs they were all decidedly smaller than VY...Garcia, Steve Young etc. etc.We will see, but my guess is that VY is going to have to greatly enhance his pocket passing ability if he has any chance at achieving Steve Young like success.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Randall Cunningham, Donovan McNabb and Daunte Culpepper have been, or are, successful running QBs with size.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Randall - I'll give you thatDonovan - A decidely better pocket passer coming out of college than VY IMHO, and a lot smarter

Daunte - Mediocre without Moss to bail him out IMHO...I think this is the best comparison for VY.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is really no comparison between VY's running ability and Culpepper's, IMO.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Didn't C-Pep run a 4.5??
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Have you watched VY run?

 

[LHUCKS]

I'm just saying I think he won't get hit as much as most qbs who run, and when he does, he won't tend to take the big shot. Chow has said that's one of the things he likes most about Young.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well if you look at the successful running QBs they were all decidedly smaller than VY...Garcia, Steve Young etc. etc.We will see, but my guess is that VY is going to have to greatly enhance his pocket passing ability if he has any chance at achieving Steve Young like success.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Randall Cunningham, Donovan McNabb and Daunte Culpepper have been, or are, successful running QBs with size.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Randall - I'll give you thatDonovan - A decidely better pocket passer coming out of college than VY IMHO, and a lot smarter

Daunte - Mediocre without Moss to bail him out IMHO...I think this is the best comparison for VY.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is really no comparison between VY's running ability and Culpepper's, IMO.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Didn't C-Pep run a 4.5??
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Have you watched VY run?
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uhh yes.

 

[LHUCKS]

I'm just saying I think he won't get hit as much as most qbs who run, and when he does, he won't tend to take the big shot. Chow has said that's one of the things he likes most about Young.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well if you look at the successful running QBs they were all decidedly smaller than VY...Garcia, Steve Young etc. etc.We will see, but my guess is that VY is going to have to greatly enhance his pocket passing ability if he has any chance at achieving Steve Young like success.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Randall Cunningham, Donovan McNabb and Daunte Culpepper have been, or are, successful running QBs with size.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Randall - I'll give you thatDonovan - A decidely better pocket passer coming out of college than VY IMHO, and a lot smarter

Daunte - Mediocre without Moss to bail him out IMHO...I think this is the best comparison for VY.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is really no comparison between VY's running ability and Culpepper's, IMO.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Didn't C-Pep run a 4.5??
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cpep has gotten bigger, fatter and slower ever year since his second. He has never had the open field speed and control of Young. Unlike most QB's, Young is in total control at top speed.
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I agree that if you compared both right now VY is the superior runner...I'm comparing both when coming out of college. C-Pep ran a 4.5 I believe.

 

[Jason Wood]

Randall - I'll give you that

Donovan - A decidely better pocket passer coming out of college than VY IMHO, and a lot smarter

Daunte - Mediocre without Moss to bail him out IMHO...I think this is the best comparison for VY.

You know I'm a McNabb fan and Philly homer, but based on Wonderlic, you can't say McNabb is definitively more intelligent than Vince Young and I don't know how else we could objectively measure intellect comparitively. As to McNabb being a much better passer, this is without question but I was using McNabb as an example of a big (6'3", 240) QB who had success running the ball.

Cpep has gotten bigger, fatter and slower ever year since his second. He has never had the open field speed and control of Young. Unlike most QB's, Young is in total control at top speed.

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Culpepper has gotten bigger and is less mobile now, but coming into the league he was faster (based on 40-time) than Vince Young and just as big. The big difference is Culpepper was a much better passer albeit he played against subpar competition. FYI...looking at Vince Young right now, I would be pretty surprised if he too doesn't get bigger, fatter and slower every year he's in the league.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

if vince young makes the same decisions and continues to lock into his primary receiver

OK, here's a website that has mucho game film of Texas from '05...jcdenton40.comWhen you watch the games, you start to learn very quickly that Hoge, Jaws, and their kind are so full of #### that their eyes are brown. If you don't have the games, you can use JCDenton's site to confirm the following...this is just from a small sampling of video, mind you:

vs. Tech 13:53 mark of the 3rd quarter - Young takes the snap and reads to his right where Sweed is and then goes to a second read where he finds Pittman breaking lose and hits him for a 75 yard TD.

vs. Tech 6:30 mark in the 3rd quarter - Young hits Taylor for a good gain and obviously goes through multiple reads before finding him.

vs. Baylor 14:17 mark in the 4th quarter - Young obviously goes back and forth between Thomas and Pittman before hitting Pittman.

vs. Baylor 13:26 mark in the 2nd quarter - Young rolls out looking at Cosby and then turns his head up the field to hit David Thomas.

vs. Baylor 2:52 mark in the 3rd quarter - Vince goes through what looks like three reads before hitting David Thomas coming across the middle.

vs. Baylor 9:39 mark in the 1st quarter - Not only does Young start from under center (Hoge told me Vince never does that), but his first read is to David Thomas who is running a short patter in the middle of the field. Young finds Limas Sweed, who makes an amazing one handed grab.

vs. Baylor 2:24 mark in the 3rd quarter - Young takes the snap and looks to his left, up the middle, then right, and then back to the middle before looking right again and hitting Cosby for a TD.

vs. Ohio State 4:32 mark in the 1st quarter - Young's first read is Thomas, but he moves to his left and then goes back to Thomas, to whom he throws a first down pass.

vs. Ohio State 00:31 mark in the 2nd quarter - I count Young going through four different reads before finding Jamaal Charles (my avatar) going across the middle.

Vs. Ohio State 2:46 mark in the 4th quarter - the game-winning TD. The initial read was to Thomas who was going straight up the middle of the field. Limas Sweed was the second read.

vs. CU 11:51 mark in the 1st quarter - The first read is to Sweed on the short side of the field, but Young moves through his progression to Brian Carter on the other side of the field.

vs. CU 13:08 mark in the 3rd quarter - Not only did Young pick up the blitz, but he was able to go through two reads before completing a pass to Thomas. Carter was the first read.

vs. CU 10:48 mark in the 1st quarter - By my count Vince goes through three reads.

All you have to do is watch the film and it is obvious that Texas does not run a one read offense. It amazes me how ######s like Merrill Hoge get on TV and boast about how much film they watch, but then say things that are completely debunked when you actually watch film.

First he said Vince has no experience working under center. However, if you go back and watch film from every game Vince has played in at Texas, you will quickly find that upwards of 40% of the snaps Vince took as a Texas QB came from under center.

Now, Hoge & Jaws are ranting about this one read offense crap, but again, the actual film proves that's just idiocy. Just out of the quick sampling I did, I found that Vince went through multiple reads on over half of all the plays I examined.

Hoge & Jaws = bs

 

[LHUCKS]

Culpepper has gotten bigger and is less mobile now, but coming into the league he was faster (based on 40-time) than Vince Young and just as big. The big difference is Culpepper was a much better passer albeit he played against subpar competition. FYI...looking at Vince Young right now, I would be pretty surprised if he too doesn't get bigger, fatter and slower every year he's in the league.

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Thank you...using VYs running ability to justify drafting him #3 overall is a very bad move IMHO...which is what Joe B. and I have been trying to argue. If you think he's an awesome passer or will be able to develop into one despite his throwing motion and despite his wonderlic, that is one thing, but it's a mistake IMHO to usie his running ability as support for an argument that states he'll be good some day. If he does run, he's going to see the DL as often as Vick...he's not running against Iowa State any more...Brian Urlacher and Ray Lewis light up running QBs like Christmas trees.

 

[rabidfireweasel]

I'm just saying I think he won't get hit as much as most qbs who run, and when he does, he won't tend to take the big shot. Chow has said that's one of the things he likes most about Young.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well if you look at the successful running QBs they were all decidedly smaller than VY...Garcia, Steve Young etc. etc.We will see, but my guess is that VY is going to have to greatly enhance his pocket passing ability if he has any chance at achieving Steve Young like success.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Randall Cunningham, Donovan McNabb and Daunte Culpepper have been, or are, successful running QBs with size.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Randall - I'll give you thatDonovan - A decidely better pocket passer coming out of college than VY IMHO, and a lot smarter

Daunte - Mediocre without Moss to bail him out IMHO...I think this is the best comparison for VY.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There is really no comparison between VY's running ability and Culpepper's, IMO.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Didn't C-Pep run a 4.5??
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cpep has gotten bigger, fatter and slower ever year since his second. He has never had the open field speed and control of Young. Unlike most QB's, Young is in total control at top speed.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree that if you compared both right now VY is the superior runner...I'm comparing both when coming out of college. C-Pep ran a 4.5 I believe.
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Culpeepr was a tremendous runner his first few years in. I can't reasonably argue that Young will rush for more yards or more td's. I see a different style, but a similiar level of effectiveness. I think Culpepper took on too many LB's. Culpeeper runs with more physicality, Young can cut more fluidly and has better vision. Both abuse less physical DB's. I believe that Young takes less big hits, and believe that he plays, with the ball in his hands, faster than 4.5. I do think that one thing that will make his reads easier, is that you are going to have to put a spy on him or account for him when he drops back.

 

[trader jake]

When you watch the games, you start to learn very quickly that Hoge, Jaws, and their kind are so full of #### that their eyes are brown. If you don't have the games, you can use JCDenton's site to confirm the following...this is just from a small sampling of video, mind you:

thanks for the link...i'll check it out do you anticipate that vince young will have as much time to throw as he did in college? with wide receivers who are better than the defensive backs more often than not? apples and oranges imo. it's about translating his game to the NFLhairy scotsman: how long until vince young is game ready? (defined as: similar to mcnair was entering year 3)

 

[-OZ-]

If he does run, he's going to see the DL as often as Vick...

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How often has Vick been on the DL?

 

[LHUCKS]

Culpeepr was a tremendous runner his first few years in. I can't reasonably argue that Young will rush for more yards or more td's. I see a different style, but a similiar level of effectiveness. I think Culpepper took on too many LB's. Culpeeper runs with more physicality, Young can cut more fluidly and has better vision. Both abuse less physical DB's. I believe that Young takes less big hits, and believe that he plays, with the ball in his hands, faster than 4.5. I do think that one thing that will make his reads easier, is that you are going to have to put a spy on him or account for him when he drops back.

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Well his running days will last just as long as Culpepper's so if he is the runner you expect him to be the first couple of years...I wouldn't expect it to last long.Sooner or later he's going to need to read NFL defenses and throw the ball on a dime.

 

[BoltBacker]

Young can make up for bad reads with his athleticism.

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I think people should be very careful when making assumptions like this. It hasn't really worked for Vick as much as many would have thought.
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jurb. That's really the foundation of the whole thing I've been on shying away from "athletic" QBs. I've seen too many guys continue to rely on their athleticism only to find they don't have nearly the athletic advantage on Sundays that they enjoyed on Saturdays.J

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's very true, but I'm not sure how a record .500 or better every year he's played the majority of the games means it isn't working for Vick.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Disagree.If I were to pick a QB as the first pick in the draft(and pay him like the first pick) and his standard for success would be "a record of .500 or better" something wouldn't be working.

 

[LHUCKS]

If he does run, he's going to see the DL as often as Vick...

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How often has Vick been on the DL?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...you know what I mean.

 

[-OZ-]

If he does run, he's going to see the DL as often as Vick...

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How often has Vick been on the DL?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...you know what I mean.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, I do. That doesn't change the fact that he's played 15 games a year 3 of the last 4.

 

[LHUCKS]

If he does run, he's going to see the DL as often as Vick...

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How often has Vick been on the DL?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...you know what I mean.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, I do. That doesn't change the fact that he's played 15 games a year 3 of the last 4.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you also should know that I'm talking about the span of his career....hell, even Chris Brown put together a healthy year last year.

 

[Bevo]

I've said all along I think the guy is overvalued...until he proves he can THINK like an NFL QB I will not be sold.  He wont be running around the NFL like he did against the weak Big12.

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You mean like Reggie and LenDale did against those awesome, and might I add, very highly ranked Pac-10 defenses? Most of the Pac-10 teams don't even realize that defense is a real part of the game.

 

[BoltBacker]

I'd think so Jason. Plus he's definitely a head case.

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Why would you say that? I'm not saying you're wrong I honestly don't know why he'd be considered a head case.The reason I ask is there were some phantom "character issues" that pushed Winston Justice down draft boards and when I pressed people for examples of these character issues the best two I got were;

1 - He pointed a plastic gun at people

2 - He was expected to be the next Anthony Munoz..... but wasn't.

Those seem like two of the most ridiculous reasons to pass on a guy that I can possibly think of.

 

[rabidfireweasel]

Culpepper has gotten bigger and is less mobile now, but coming into the league he was faster (based on 40-time) than Vince Young and just as big. The big difference is Culpepper was a much better passer albeit he played against subpar competition. FYI...looking at Vince Young right now, I would be pretty surprised if he too doesn't get bigger, fatter and slower every year he's in the league.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I doubt that Young will ever be the poorly conditioned overweight QB that Culpepper has become. Culpepper has never appeared to be leader of his team.

If you think he's an awesome passer or will be able to develop into one despite his throwing motion and despite his wonderlic, that is one thing, but it's a mistake IMHO to usie his running ability as support for an argument that states he'll be good some day.

I like Young because of his level of improvement every year. He was a Greek God in Houston HS. Then, he had to redshirt and adapt to the college game. HE stadily improved every year, and work on his game. He is a leader, and has been a champion at each previos level. I think he has the will to make himself better, and that is perhaps the most important attribute an athlete can have, after average/above average athleticism,I think the Ohio State game was in many ways better than his USC game. That team was loaded with first round picks. They were not going to let Vince beat them with his feet. They were determined to take that away, and had the athletes to do it. They took the lead at home in the fourth quarter. However, he still found a way to move the ball and deliever a strike to Limas Sweed at the end of the game.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

do you anticipate that vince young will have as much time to throw as he did in college?

Maybe not, but some thought, up until the draft, that it was all because of the Texas OLine. When the best Texas OL in the draft slipped, some started to think maybe Vince's time to throw was due in large part to defense's reluctance to blitz him for fear he'd beat them with his feet. We watched defenses try to slow his passing and throwing down all year. They were in a pick-your-poison scenario.

wide receivers who are better than the defensive backs more often than not?

You have a higher opinion of the Texas wrs than most around Austin do.

how long until vince young is game ready? (defined as: similar to mcnair was entering year 3)

That's hard to say. It depends on how Chow and Fisher approach the offense with Young in the game. Regardless, however, I believe he'll progress more quickly than most here seem to. I'm not that familiar with McNair's early progress, either.

 

[rabidfireweasel]

Culpeepr was a tremendous runner his first few years in. I can't reasonably argue that Young will rush for more yards or more td's. I see a different style, but a similiar level of effectiveness. I think Culpepper took on too many LB's. Culpeeper runs with more physicality, Young can cut more fluidly and has better vision. Both abuse less physical DB's. I believe that Young takes less big hits, and believe that he plays, with the ball in his hands, faster than 4.5. I do think that one thing that will make his reads easier, is that you are going to have to put a spy on him or account for him when he drops back.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well his running days will last just as long as Culpepper's so if he is the runner you expect him to be the first couple of years...I wouldn't expect it to last long.Sooner or later he's going to need to read NFL defenses and throw the ball on a

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not sure why you believe that. Young was a productive runner 13 years into his career, and a player that struggled mightily early.

 

[LHUCKS]

I've said all along I think the guy is overvalued...until he proves he can THINK like an NFL QB I will not be sold.  He wont be running around the NFL like he did against the weak Big12.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You mean like Reggie and LenDale did against those awesome, and might I add, very highly ranked Pac-10 defenses? Most of the Pac-10 teams don't even realize that defense is a real part of the game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please...I have never stated that the Pac10 is a defensive conference. If you don't think Reggie or Lendale are NFL ready.

 

[-OZ-]

Young can make up for bad reads with his athleticism.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think people should be very careful when making assumptions like this. It hasn't really worked for Vick as much as many would have thought.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

jurb. That's really the foundation of the whole thing I've been on shying away from "athletic" QBs. I've seen too many guys continue to rely on their athleticism only to find they don't have nearly the athletic advantage on Sundays that they enjoyed on Saturdays.J

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's very true, but I'm not sure how a record .500 or better every year he's played the majority of the games means it isn't working for Vick.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Disagree.If I were to pick a QB as the first pick in the draft(and pay him like the first pick) and his standard for success would be "a record of .500 or better" something wouldn't be working.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What's the standard then?Going back 20 years, QBs drafted 1.01, using the QB's first 5 years

1987

1 1 Vinny Testaverde QB Miami

Losing records in every of his first 5 years in the NFL

1989

1 1 Troy Aikman QB UCLA

Losing record the first 2 years, then went on to a great record

1990

1 1 Jeff George QB Illinois

Actually had one winning record in his 4 years in Indy

1993

Rd Sel# Player Pos. School

1 1 Drew Bledsoe QB Washington State

Winning record in 3 of 5 years

1998

1 1 Peyton Manning QB Tennessee

Winning record in 3 of 5 years

1999

1 1 Tim Couch QB Kentucky

Actually had one winning record in his 4 years in Cleveland

2001

1 1 Michael Vick QB Virginia Tech

Has yet to have a losing record

2002

1 1 David Carr QB Fresno State

:X

So, what's your standard?

 

[LHUCKS]

Culpeepr was a tremendous runner his first few years in. I can't reasonably argue that Young will rush for more yards or more td's. I see a different style, but a similiar level of effectiveness. I think Culpepper took on too many LB's. Culpeeper runs with more physicality, Young can cut more fluidly and has better vision. Both abuse less physical DB's. I believe that Young takes less big hits, and believe that he plays, with the ball in his hands, faster than 4.5. I do think that one thing that will make his reads easier, is that you are going to have to put a spy on him or account for him when he drops back.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well his running days will last just as long as Culpepper's so if he is the runner you expect him to be the first couple of years...I wouldn't expect it to last long.Sooner or later he's going to need to read NFL defenses and throw the ball on a

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not sure why you believe that. Young was a productive runner 13 years into his career, and a player that struggled mightily early.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Young went to Law School...VY can't spell law school.Seriously, Young played in an era when teams didn't know how to defend the West Coast. If VY is half as effective as Steve Young I'll be surprised.

 

[-OZ-]

If he does run, he's going to see the DL as often as Vick...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How often has Vick been on the DL?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...you know what I mean.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, I do. That doesn't change the fact that he's played 15 games a year 3 of the last 4.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you also should know that I'm talking about the span of his career....hell, even Chris Brown put together a healthy year last year.
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I forget if he started as a rookie, but he's missed one year since then. I know he poses a risk, but comments like "he'll spend as much time as Vick on the DL" just don't seem to mean much.

 

[Red Apples]

vince young = akili smith

 

[LHUCKS]

I forget if he started as a rookie, but he's missed one year since then. I know he poses a risk, but comments like "he'll spend as much time as Vick on the DL" just don't seem to mean much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well they should, that's the reality of the NFL these days...running QBs don't make it...not with the athleticism that OLBs and DE now possess.

 

[-OZ-]

If VY is half as effective as Steve Young I'll be surprised.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Replace VY with every other QB, the same applies. Steve Young is a flippin' Hall of Fame QB. If anyone from this class is half as effective, they've done well.

 

[-OZ-]

I forget if he started as a rookie, but he's missed one year since then. I know he poses a risk, but comments like "he'll spend as much time as Vick on the DL" just don't seem to mean much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well they should, that's the reality of the NFL these days...running QBs don't make it...not with the athleticism that OLBs and DE now possess.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a great comment, but I'd like to see your proof / standard.Name the most athletic QBs to come out lately - off hand, McNabb, Culpepper, Vick... I'd say these guys have "made it".

 

[LHUCKS]

If VY is half as effective as Steve Young I'll be surprised.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Replace VY with every other QB, the same applies. Steve Young is a flippin' Hall of Fame QB. If anyone from this class is half as effective, they've done well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's why I think any comparison to Steve Young is ludicrous...VY fans are better off sticking with Culpepper comparisons.

 

[Jason Wood]

I'd think so Jason. Plus he's definitely a head case.

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Why would you say that? I'm not saying you're wrong I honestly don't know why he'd be considered a head case.The reason I ask is there were some phantom "character issues" that pushed Winston Justice down draft boards and when I pressed people for examples of these character issues the best two I got were;

1 - He pointed a plastic gun at people

2 - He was expected to be the next Anthony Munoz..... but wasn't.

Those seem like two of the most ridiculous reasons to pass on a guy that I can possibly think of.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Winston Justice (a new Eagle ) had some serious character issues that extended beyond "pointing a plastic gun at people." He was arrested for soliciting prostitution, and flashed a fake gun three separate occasions to students in addition to the pellet gun incident.I hope he's matured, but no way we can know for sure until he gets those $$$ in his pocket and we see whether he can keep his focus.

 

[rabidfireweasel]

Culpeepr was a tremendous runner his first few years in. I can't reasonably argue that Young will rush for more yards or more td's. I see a different style, but a similiar level of effectiveness. I think Culpepper took on too many LB's. Culpeeper runs with more physicality, Young can cut more fluidly and has better vision. Both abuse less physical DB's. I believe that Young takes less big hits, and believe that he plays, with the ball in his hands, faster than 4.5. I do think that one thing that will make his reads easier, is that you are going to have to put a spy on him or account for him when he drops back.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well his running days will last just as long as Culpepper's so if he is the runner you expect him to be the first couple of years...I wouldn't expect it to last long.Sooner or later he's going to need to read NFL defenses and throw the ball on a

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not sure why you believe that. Young was a productive runner 13 years into his career, and a player that struggled mightily early.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Young went to Law School...VY can't spell law school.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cute sound bite, but that law school education- (and I know a lot of lawyers and JD's who are idiots, so I am not sure how effective a point that is) has no relationship to the fact that Young was still an athletic mobile QB ten years into the league. I am not sure why Vince Young is more likely to get fat like Culpepper as opposed to remain elusive like Steve Young. The fact you you deflect and try to be clever rather than address th topic implies that you believe it could go either way as well. I realize that you have difficulty ever conceding where you might be off base or failed to consider something. You save your good posting smilies for people that agree with point you recently made or plan to make.

 

[LHUCKS]

I forget if he started as a rookie, but he's missed one year since then. I know he poses a risk, but comments like "he'll spend as much time as Vick on the DL" just don't seem to mean much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well they should, that's the reality of the NFL these days...running QBs don't make it...not with the athleticism that OLBs and DE now possess.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a great comment, but I'd like to see your proof / standard.Name the most athletic QBs to come out lately - off hand, McNabb, Culpepper, Vick... I'd say these guys have "made it".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As previously stated, I don't believe VY is half the passer that McNabb is.Culpepper was successful because of Green and Randy Moss...after that he has been mediocre at best...this is what I expect from VY...Culpepper without Moss type stats.

 

[-OZ-]

If VY is half as effective as Steve Young I'll be surprised.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Replace VY with every other QB, the same applies. Steve Young is a flippin' Hall of Fame QB. If anyone from this class is half as effective, they've done well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's why I think any comparison to Steve Young is ludicrous...VY fans are better off sticking with Culpepper comparisons.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But the name works so well.

 

[LHUCKS]

I'd think so Jason. Plus he's definitely a head case.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why would you say that? I'm not saying you're wrong I honestly don't know why he'd be considered a head case.The reason I ask is there were some phantom "character issues" that pushed Winston Justice down draft boards and when I pressed people for examples of these character issues the best two I got were;

1 - He pointed a plastic gun at people

2 - He was expected to be the next Anthony Munoz..... but wasn't.

Those seem like two of the most ridiculous reasons to pass on a guy that I can possibly think of.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Winston Justice (a new Eagle ) had some serious character issues that extended beyond "pointing a plastic gun at people." He was arrested for soliciting prostitution, and flashed a fake gun three separate occasions to students in addition to the pellet gun incident.I hope he's matured, but no way we can know for sure until he gets those $$$ in his pocket and we see whether he can keep his focus.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

totally worth the risk though.

 

[rabidfireweasel]

If VY is half as effective as Steve Young I'll be surprised.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Replace VY with every other QB, the same applies. Steve Young is a flippin' Hall of Fame QB. If anyone from this class is half as effective, they've done well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's why I think any comparison to Steve Young is ludicrous...VY fans are better off sticking with Culpepper comparisons.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Steve Young comparison has nothing to do with how effective Vince Young will be a a pro. It has to do with the fact that some have suggested that VY won't be mobile for long, and that he will get fat like Culpepper. I said, not necessarily, there have beeen athletic QB's that don't get fat and stay mobile- Steve Young quickly came to mind. I am not off base comparing Vince Young's running ability or style to Steve Young. They are similiar in that one area of football.

 

[-OZ-]

I forget if he started as a rookie, but he's missed one year since then. I know he poses a risk, but comments like "he'll spend as much time as Vick on the DL" just don't seem to mean much.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well they should, that's the reality of the NFL these days...running QBs don't make it...not with the athleticism that OLBs and DE now possess.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a great comment, but I'd like to see your proof / standard.Name the most athletic QBs to come out lately - off hand, McNabb, Culpepper, Vick... I'd say these guys have "made it".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As previously stated, I don't believe VY is half the passer that McNabb is.Culpepper was successful because of Green and Randy Moss...after that he has been mediocre at best...this is what I expect from VY...Culpepper without Moss type stats.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We'll just have to agree to disagree here. My memory may be foggy, but I don't recall McNabb being a great passer.

Just my but Givens/Bennett/Troupe/Kinney > anything Minnesota has had besides Moss (and Chris Carter)

Now, I firmly believe that VY will utilize the TEs a lot. Good thing for him that he has a very nice group of them to use.

 

[LHUCKS]

The Steve Young comparison has nothing to do with how effective Vince Young will be a a pro. It has to do with the fact that some have suggested that VY won't be mobile for long, and that he will get fat like Culpepper. I said, not necessarily, there have beeen athletic QB's that don't get fat and stay mobile- Steve Young quickly came to mind. I am not off base comparing Vince Young's running ability or style to Steve Young. They are similiar in that one area of football.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay I see. I believe that Young was fortunate to play against defenses that were still learning how to defend the West Coast offense, but I see your point.

 

[BoltBacker]

What's the standard then?

Going back 20 years, QBs drafted 1.01, using the QB's first 5 years

1987

1 1 Vinny Testaverde QB Miami

Losing records in every of his first 5 years in the NFL

1989

1 1 Troy Aikman QB UCLA

Losing record the first 2 years, then went on to a great record

1990

1 1 Jeff George QB Illinois

Actually had one winning record in his 4 years in Indy

1993

Rd Sel# Player Pos. School

1 1 Drew Bledsoe QB Washington State

Winning record in 3 of 5 years

1998

1 1 Peyton Manning QB Tennessee

Winning record in 3 of 5 years

1999

1 1 Tim Couch QB Kentucky

Actually had one winning record in his 4 years in Cleveland

2001

1 1 Michael Vick QB Virginia Tech

Has yet to have a losing record

2002

1 1 David Carr  QB Fresno State

:X

So, what's your standard?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, of the seven other guys you mentioned two of them led their team to a superbowl, 1 passed for 45,000+ yards in his career and another is Peyton Manning(pick just about any stat and compare it to Vick). I think those are more impressive than finishing .500.

 

[rabidfireweasel]

The Steve Young comparison has nothing to do with how effective Vince Young will be a a pro. It has to do with the fact that some have suggested that VY won't be mobile for long, and that he will get fat like Culpepper. I said, not necessarily, there have beeen athletic QB's that don't get fat and stay mobile- Steve Young quickly came to mind. I am not off base comparing Vince Young's running ability or style to Steve Young. They are similiar in that one area of football.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay I see. I believe that Young was fortunate to play against defenses that were still learning how to defend the West Coast offense, but I see your point.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Fair enough. I would not suggest that Vinve Young will be anything resembling Steve Young as a QB. Steve Young, at his best in that short window, was absolutely phenomenal. Vince Young will have to improve every year to even be an average QB. I can't disagree with that. However, in my opinion, he has improved every year, and has the will and determination to get better. Will he improve enough? I can't say and I wouldn't bet on it. I certainly wouldn't bet against him though.

 

[-OZ-]

What's the standard then?

Going back 20 years, QBs drafted 1.01, using the QB's first 5 years

1987

1 1 Vinny Testaverde QB Miami

Losing records in every of his first 5 years in the NFL

1989

1 1 Troy Aikman QB UCLA

Losing record the first 2 years, then went on to a great record

1990

1 1 Jeff George QB Illinois

Actually had one winning record in his 4 years in Indy

1993

Rd Sel# Player Pos. School

1 1 Drew Bledsoe QB Washington State

Winning record in 3 of 5 years

1998

1 1 Peyton Manning QB Tennessee

Winning record in 3 of 5 years

1999

1 1 Tim Couch QB Kentucky

Actually had one winning record in his 4 years in Cleveland

2001

1 1 Michael Vick QB Virginia Tech

Has yet to have a losing record

2002

1 1 David Carr  QB Fresno State

:X

So, what's your standard?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, of the seven other guys you mentioned two of them led their team to a superbowl, 1 passed for 45,000+ yards in his career and another is Peyton Manning(pick just about any stat and compare it to Vick). I think those are more impressive than finishing .500.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you're saying, out of the #1 picked QBs, Vick ranks as above average.fair enough, which is why I asked your standard.

What I'm saying is if Young can lead the Titans to a better than .500 record, every year he's in the NFL, he's done well.

I certainly am not saying Vick's the best QB in the NFL, or anything like that, but he's done a lot better than FF fans like to give him credit for.

 

[Hawk]

reading between the lines a bit, but doesn't it sound like vince young's timetable to play is going to be be much, much sooner than it was for mcnair when he was drafted?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I know this is contrary to almost every opinion, but I think Young will learn fastest on the field. It will be painful, but I just have a hard time seeing him gaining much on the sidelines. I agree Leinart and Cutler seem better prepared for NFL football, but they also seem more the type to learn by observing. Young is an athletic beast who is what he is. Turning him loose may be the best way to develop him. Does this make sense to anyone else?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

He was in a one read one receiver then run system at Texas for the most part. He needs to learn to go through his reads and not junk the play and run with it. It would benefit him to get enough practice time in to make additional reads second nature before he gets on the field. While it is important for most rookie qb's to learn to include more than one receiver when they read the defense, I think it is more important for athletic qb's that can find it much easier to rely on their legs.That said, there is no doubt that he is playing first sans injury.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's amazing how someone says something, then it gets repeated on message boards, then pretty soon some people start accepting it as fact."A one read one receiver then run system at Texas "? Really? Go back and watch the game tapes and make that assertion again with a straight face. First off, most of Young's running plays this past season came out of a 3-wr set, running the zone read, where he'd read the de, then let the rb keep the ball, which was already in his midsection, or he'd pull it out and run. That, my friend, is a designed running play and was the staple of the Texas running game in '05. It's also where the vast majority of Young's running plays started.

On other occasions, Young would go through multiple reads, find nobody open, then, rather than take a sack as many qbs would have done, he'd go upfield and then ob, gaining a little or a lot...more often a lot. On rare occasions he was flushed out of mthe pocket due to pressure with similar results.

Hell, there are multiple Young TD passes this year where the receiver was the 2nd or 3rd read. The game-winner at Ohio State was drawn up to go to the TE. Young saw Thomas open, but also saw the wr Sweed with a step and chance to go big. He did, and won the game. The TD to Ramonce Taylor against OU was the third read.

Just look at the tapes and watch his head.

Until then, you are misinformed.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thank you, Hairy, for addressing this. I was so pissed off watching those idiots spout blatant lies and inaccuracies, especially Hoge, that I had to turn the channel. "One read offense"??? That is the biggest bunch of crap I have ever heard one of those talking heads spew, and that is saying a lot. Hairy has done a good job of breaking it down, but for crissake, just use basic logic. There is NO WAY Vince could have gone for 3,036 yards, 26/10 TD/INT, and 65% completion rate if that were even remotely close to being true. NO WAY! What a crock.One QB that remained quite mobile deep into his career, and who I think may be a better comparison than Culpepper, is Randall Cunnungham. I will also say that Vince's running ability is significantly better than Culpepper's in that Vince is significantly more elusive as a runner than Culpepper could ever dream of being. As everyone here knows, similar 40 times and size does not mean two players are equally elusive on the field.

 

[Bevo]

I've said all along I think the guy is overvalued...until he proves he can THINK like an NFL QB I will not be sold.  He wont be running around the NFL like he did against the weak Big12.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You mean like Reggie and LenDale did against those awesome, and might I add, very highly ranked Pac-10 defenses? Most of the Pac-10 teams don't even realize that defense is a real part of the game.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please...I have never stated that the Pac10 is a defensive conference. If you don't think Reggie or Lendale are NFL ready.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I abolutely think both of them are as ready to move to the NFL as can be expected. I was just pointing out that if you are going to use the strength of the conferences (and especially the defenses since these are offensive guys) that Young was playing against defenses every bit as good (if not a fair bit better) than superstars from the USC (you know, the best team in the Conference of Cheaters).

 

[the hairy scotsman]

There is NO WAY Vince could have gone for 3,036 yards, 26/10 TD/INT, and 65% completion rate if that were even remotely close to being true.

Well...you could score 50 ppg with a one read offense if that one guy was always open, right? Oh wait...that would be really hard...damn near...impossible.Hoge & Jaws also fail to explain how Texas ended up with 7 receivers with 14 or more catches and something like 21 people with TDs in that "one-read offense".

 

[LHUCKS]

I was just pointing out that if you are going to use the strength of the conferences (and especially the defenses since these are offensive guys) that Young was playing against defenses every bit as good (if not a fair bit better) than superstars from the USC (you know, the best team in the Conference of Cheaters).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I think there's a big difference between evaluating a runningbacks future prospects vs. a QBs. RBs you can either see that they have it or don't. QBs on the other hand are much more trickier IMHO...at the very least I would have rather have seen VY play in a conference where the defensive team speed was greater than it is in the Big12. The SEC or Pac10 are decidedly faster conferences.

 

[Bevo]

I was just pointing out that if you are going to use the strength of the conferences (and especially the defenses since these are offensive guys) that Young was playing against defenses every bit as good (if not a fair bit better) than superstars from the USC (you know, the best team in the Conference of Cheaters).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I think there's a big difference between evaluating a runningbacks future prospects vs. a QBs. RBs you can either see that they have it or don't. QBs on the other hand are much more trickier IMHO...at the very least I would have rather have seen VY play in a conference where the defensive team speed was greater than it is in the Big12. The SEC or Pac10 are decidedly faster conferences.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

B.S. Show me that stats that indicate that the PAC-10 has faster defenses across the board than the BIG-12. People that don't watch the BIG-12 fail to realize how much the speed, especially on defense, has improved in the last few years; they don't watch and make the mistake that how it was 10 years ago is how it is today.If you think those PAC-10 defenses are so fast please explain how mediocre teams like Fresno State basically chewed up that lightning quick USC defense which was the #1 defense in the PAC-10. Where was that defensive speed from the #1 defense in the PAC-10 when Vince Young was making them look like slightly mobile statues? Speed and PAC-10 defenses is an oxymoron.

But, I will agree with you about the SEC.

 

[LHUCKS]

I was just pointing out that if you are going to use the strength of the conferences (and especially the defenses since these are offensive guys) that Young was playing against defenses every bit as good (if not a fair bit better) than superstars from the USC (you know, the best team in the Conference of Cheaters).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I think there's a big difference between evaluating a runningbacks future prospects vs. a QBs. RBs you can either see that they have it or don't. QBs on the other hand are much more trickier IMHO...at the very least I would have rather have seen VY play in a conference where the defensive team speed was greater than it is in the Big12. The SEC or Pac10 are decidedly faster conferences.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

B.S. Show me that stats that indicate that the PAC-10 has faster defenses across the board than the BIG-12. People that don't watch the BIG-12 fail to realize how much the speed, especially on defense, has improved in the last few years; they don't watch and make the mistake that how it was 10 years ago is how it is today.If you think those PAC-10 defenses are so fast please explain how mediocre teams like Fresno State basically chewed up that lightning quick USC defense which was the #1 defense in the PAC-10. Where was that defensive speed from the #1 defense in the PAC-10 when Vince Young was making them look like slightly mobile statues? Speed and PAC-10 defenses is an oxymoron.

But, I will agree with you about the SEC.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is a well know fact...Pac10 is a speed conference. Not quite sure how to prove this other than to say it is common knowledge.

 

[-OZ-]

I was just pointing out that if you are going to use the strength of the conferences (and especially the defenses since these are offensive guys) that Young was playing against defenses every bit as good (if not a fair bit better) than superstars from the USC (you know, the best team in the Conference of Cheaters).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I think there's a big difference between evaluating a runningbacks future prospects vs. a QBs. RBs you can either see that they have it or don't. QBs on the other hand are much more trickier IMHO...at the very least I would have rather have seen VY play in a conference where the defensive team speed was greater than it is in the Big12. The SEC or Pac10 are decidedly faster conferences.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

B.S. Show me that stats that indicate that the PAC-10 has faster defenses across the board than the BIG-12. People that don't watch the BIG-12 fail to realize how much the speed, especially on defense, has improved in the last few years; they don't watch and make the mistake that how it was 10 years ago is how it is today.If you think those PAC-10 defenses are so fast please explain how mediocre teams like Fresno State basically chewed up that lightning quick USC defense which was the #1 defense in the PAC-10. Where was that defensive speed from the #1 defense in the PAC-10 when Vince Young was making them look like slightly mobile statues? Speed and PAC-10 defenses is an oxymoron.

But, I will agree with you about the SEC.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is a well know fact...Pac10 is a speed conference. Not quite sure how to prove this other than to say it is common knowledge.
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just keep in mind, a fast defense doesn't mean a good one.VY will abuse defenders who are just fast.

Strong and fast, plus technically sound?