Jerry Sandusky accused of child molestation (4 Viewers)

[The Commish]

So, if I follow the logic, when a bank, say Barclay's, commits a fraud like manipulates LIBOR, its ok to simply punish the people involved - and not punish the bank?PSU, by all accounts, was corrupt up to its president. The culture that existed, was accepted and encouraged by everyone from players, students, faculty, alumni, trustees etc. To think that they are just innocent bystanders here is a bit naive, bordering on living in a fairy tale. The football program became bigger than the university because that is what all of the key stakeholders wanted. Everyone was/is complicit with the aura of invincibility that surrounded the football program. Without that sense of entitlement that was given to the football program, much of this tragic story would have been averted.

oh my. I think we just broke the internet

 

[Maude]

When we start using the NCAA for law enforcement/punishment we are definitely in dire trouble. This whole shut the program down is ridiculous. It punishes everyone not the few people who were the problem. Stupid.

I understand what you are saying, but we are talking about 4 of the top positions at PSU, including the president of the university. And many argue that Paterno was the real head of the school. When you have this kind of corruption, IMHO, a clear and profound message must be sent to deter anyone from thinking about doing anything remotely as heinous.

But that message isn't sent by firing all those people, bringing them up on charges and throwing them in jail for a long time? Do you believe the message of "don't cover for a pedophile" really needs to be sent? I'm generally pessimistic when it comes to society, but even I don't think it's that bad.

How 'bout we ask the victims what is their preference? Give them some control in this situation if they so desire.

 

[The Commish]

When we start using the NCAA for law enforcement/punishment we are definitely in dire trouble. This whole shut the program down is ridiculous. It punishes everyone not the few people who were the problem. Stupid.

I understand what you are saying, but we are talking about 4 of the top positions at PSU, including the president of the university. And many argue that Paterno was the real head of the school. When you have this kind of corruption, IMHO, a clear and profound message must be sent to deter anyone from thinking about doing anything remotely as heinous.

But that message isn't sent by firing all those people, bringing them up on charges and throwing them in jail for a long time? Do you believe the message of "don't cover for a pedophile" really needs to be sent? I'm generally pessimistic when it comes to society, but even I don't think it's that bad.

How 'bout we ask the victims what is their preference? Give them some control in this situation if they so desire.

Fine by me, but this doesn't answer my question.

 

[NCCommish]

When we start using the NCAA for law enforcement/punishment we are definitely in dire trouble. This whole shut the program down is ridiculous. It punishes everyone not the few people who were the problem. Stupid.

I understand what you are saying, but we are talking about 4 of the top positions at PSU, including the president of the university. And many argue that Paterno was the real head of the school. When you have this kind of corruption, IMHO, a clear and profound message must be sent to deter anyone from thinking about doing anything remotely as heinous.

I'm thinking the clear and profound message will be more people going to jail, massive monetary damage pay outs and a general destruction of the schools reputation.

 

[Maude]

But that message isn't sent by firing all those people, bringing them up on charges and throwing them in jail for a long time? Do you believe the message of "don't cover for a pedophile" really needs to be sent? I'm generally pessimistic when it comes to society, but even I don't think it's that bad.

How 'bout we ask the victims what is their preference? Give them some control in this situation if they so desire.

Fine by me, but this doesn't answer my question.

That's because it is a stupid question. The message is not going to be about "don't cover for a pedophile". If you cannot understand that, then I cannot help you.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

According to the NCAA website, the "death penalty" is only for repeat offenders...

The repeat-violator legislation (“death penalty”) is applicable to an institution if, within a five-year period, the following conditions exist:Following the announcement of a major case, a major violation occurs andThe second violation occurred within five years of the starting date of the penalty assessed in the first case. The second major case does not have to be in the same sport as the previous case to affect the second sport.

Repeatedly allowing a child rapist over the course of several years applies in my opinion. At least penn state players didn't take a couple of t-shirts or tattoos. NCAA would get them then

 

[NCCommish]

But that message isn't sent by firing all those people, bringing them up on charges and throwing them in jail for a long time? Do you believe the message of "don't cover for a pedophile" really needs to be sent? I'm generally pessimistic when it comes to society, but even I don't think it's that bad.

How 'bout we ask the victims what is their preference? Give them some control in this situation if they so desire.

Fine by me, but this doesn't answer my question.

That's because it is a stupid question. The message is not going to be about "don't cover for a pedophile". If you cannot understand that, then I cannot help you.

So what is the message you think you are sending with your plan?

 

[Christo]

When we start using the NCAA for law enforcement/punishment we are definitely in dire trouble. This whole shut the program down is ridiculous. It punishes everyone not the few people who were the problem. Stupid.

I understand what you are saying, but we are talking about 4 of the top positions at PSU, including the president of the university. And many argue that Paterno was the real head of the school. When you have this kind of corruption, IMHO, a clear and profound message must be sent to deter anyone from thinking about doing anything remotely as heinous.

But that message isn't sent by firing all those people, bringing them up on charges and throwing them in jail for a long time? Do you believe the message of "don't cover for a pedophile" really needs to be sent? I'm generally pessimistic when it comes to society, but even I don't think it's that bad.

How 'bout we ask the victims what is their preference? Give them some control in this situation if they so desire.

Because that's not what we do.

 

[Christo]

But that message isn't sent by firing all those people, bringing them up on charges and throwing them in jail for a long time? Do you believe the message of "don't cover for a pedophile" really needs to be sent? I'm generally pessimistic when it comes to society, but even I don't think it's that bad.

How 'bout we ask the victims what is their preference? Give them some control in this situation if they so desire.

Fine by me, but this doesn't answer my question.

That's because it is a stupid question. The message is not going to be about "don't cover for a pedophile". If you cannot understand that, then I cannot help you.

 

[The Commish]

But that message isn't sent by firing all those people, bringing them up on charges and throwing them in jail for a long time? Do you believe the message of "don't cover for a pedophile" really needs to be sent? I'm generally pessimistic when it comes to society, but even I don't think it's that bad.

How 'bout we ask the victims what is their preference? Give them some control in this situation if they so desire.

Fine by me, but this doesn't answer my question.

That's because it is a stupid question. The message is not going to be about "don't cover for a pedophile". If you cannot understand that, then I cannot help you.

Then what's the message?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

When we start using the NCAA for law enforcement/punishment we are definitely in dire trouble. This whole shut the program down is ridiculous. It punishes everyone not the few people who were the problem. Stupid.

I understand what you are saying, but we are talking about 4 of the top positions at PSU, including the president of the university. And many argue that Paterno was the real head of the school. When you have this kind of corruption, IMHO, a clear and profound message must be sent to deter anyone from thinking about doing anything remotely as heinous.

I'm thinking the clear and profound message will be more people going to jail, massive monetary damage pay outs and a general destruction of the schools reputation.

Exactly. If I'm a college president, and you tell me that taking a particular course of action will destroy my career and result in serious prison time, that means a lot more than endangering a football program that I don't have any personal stake in.

 

[Christo]

According to the NCAA website, the "death penalty" is only for repeat offenders...

The repeat-violator legislation (“death penalty”) is applicable to an institution if, within a five-year period, the following conditions exist:Following the announcement of a major case, a major violation occurs andThe second violation occurred within five years of the starting date of the penalty assessed in the first case. The second major case does not have to be in the same sport as the previous case to affect the second sport.

Repeatedly allowing a child rapist over the course of several years applies in my opinion. At least penn state players didn't take a couple of t-shirts or tattoos. NCAA would get them then

That's right. Because that's the purpose of the NCAA.

 

[igbomb]

So, if I follow the logic, when a bank, say Barclay's, commits a fraud like manipulates LIBOR, its ok to simply punish the people involved - and not punish the bank?PSU, by all accounts, was corrupt up to its president. The culture that existed, was accepted and encouraged by everyone from players, students, faculty, alumni, trustees etc. To think that they are just innocent bystanders here is a bit naive, bordering on living in a fairy tale. The football program became bigger than the university because that is what all of the key stakeholders wanted. Everyone was/is complicit with the aura of invincibility that surrounded the football program. Without that sense of entitlement that was given to the football program, much of this tragic story would have been averted.

Ridiculous. You blame the culture for the senior officials covering it up, and then blame everyone involved with the university for the culture and by extension blame them for the whole sordid mess.Culture be damned. This was a few men responsible, from Sandusky to the top of the chain. The freshman kicker has no culpability in this, nor does the guy running a bar down on the corner. Learn to draw a line people.

 

[The Commish]

I really have to believe that people are just ####### around now...this can't be real

 

[Christo]

But that message isn't sent by firing all those people, bringing them up on charges and throwing them in jail for a long time? Do you believe the message of "don't cover for a pedophile" really needs to be sent? I'm generally pessimistic when it comes to society, but even I don't think it's that bad.

How 'bout we ask the victims what is their preference? Give them some control in this situation if they so desire.

Fine by me, but this doesn't answer my question.

That's because it is a stupid question. The message is not going to be about "don't cover for a pedophile". If you cannot understand that, then I cannot help you.

Then what's the message?

Maude's mad as hell and he's not going to take it anymore!

 

[Apple Jack]

"Well I was going to cover up some child molesting that's going on, but since the NCAA came down on Penn State that time I don't think I should."

 

[IvanKaramazov]

According to the NCAA website, the "death penalty" is only for repeat offenders...

The repeat-violator legislation (“death penalty”) is applicable to an institution if, within a five-year period, the following conditions exist:Following the announcement of a major case, a major violation occurs andThe second violation occurred within five years of the starting date of the penalty assessed in the first case. The second major case does not have to be in the same sport as the previous case to affect the second sport.

Repeatedly allowing a child rapist over the course of several years applies in my opinion. At least penn state players didn't take a couple of t-shirts or tattoos. NCAA would get them then

I think this gets right to the heart of what people are having a hard time accepting. The Paterno-Sandusky scandal doesn't really have anything to do with football per se. Yes, it occured in a football program, and yes the football program benefited in the short run by not having this scandal exposed earlier (although it's being damaged much more now). But this isn't about a team getting an unfair advantage over other teams through recruiting violations or stuff like that. This is a scandal that could have and does happen in all sorts of other ogranizations, such as the Catholic church. And that's why the NCAA doesn't really have a role here. It's not the NCAA's job to enforce criminal law, any more than it's the FBI's job to monitor compliance with recruiting protocols. What happened at Penn State is a criminal matter, not a football matter. Let the criminal justice system do it's thing, and let the NCAA stick to its proper place.

 

[Joe Summer]

Question:How did the McQueary stuff come to light? This was not the incident that triggered the grand jury. The victim is yet to be identified at all. I don't know that prosecutors would have questioned McQueary about anything without some type of info. So did Joe, Curley, Spainer, or Schultz (the only people who seemed to know anything about 2001) bring up the incident to prosecutors prior to the grand jury?

The Freeh report does not specify how the McQueary stuff came to light, but it does mention that the Attorney General issued subpoenas in early 2010 for "certain documents" -- maybe those documents included emails that mentioned McQueary?

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

According to the NCAA website, the "death penalty" is only for repeat offenders...

The repeat-violator legislation (“death penalty”) is applicable to an institution if, within a five-year period, the following conditions exist:Following the announcement of a major case, a major violation occurs andThe second violation occurred within five years of the starting date of the penalty assessed in the first case. The second major case does not have to be in the same sport as the previous case to affect the second sport.

Repeatedly allowing a child rapist over the course of several years applies in my opinion. At least penn state players didn't take a couple of t-shirts or tattoos. NCAA would get them then

I think this gets right to the heart of what people are having a hard time accepting. The Paterno-Sandusky scandal doesn't really have anything to do with football per se. Yes, it occured in a football program, and yes the football program benefited in the short run by not having this scandal exposed earlier (although it's being damaged much more now). But this isn't about a team getting an unfair advantage over other teams through recruiting violations or stuff like that. This is a scandal that could have and does happen in all sorts of other ogranizations, such as the Catholic church. And that's why the NCAA doesn't really have a role here. It's not the NCAA's job to enforce criminal law, any more than it's the FBI's job to monitor compliance with recruiting protocols. What happened at Penn State is a criminal matter, not a football matter. Let the criminal justice system do it's thing, and let the NCAA stick to its proper place.

2 kids getting a free t shirt or a few kids getting free tattoos doesn't give a competitive advantageIt certainly is a football issue. A coach was raping kids. The head coach was covering it up. Over and over and over. And letting the rapist and kids continue to come into football facilities for repeated rapingsAll of this occurred over and over because a few didn't want the football program to be affected. Still looks like some will overlook anything to help the football team. Priorities!

 

[The Commish]

According to the NCAA website, the "death penalty" is only for repeat offenders...

The repeat-violator legislation (“death penalty”) is applicable to an institution if, within a five-year period, the following conditions exist:Following the announcement of a major case, a major violation occurs andThe second violation occurred within five years of the starting date of the penalty assessed in the first case. The second major case does not have to be in the same sport as the previous case to affect the second sport.

Repeatedly allowing a child rapist over the course of several years applies in my opinion. At least penn state players didn't take a couple of t-shirts or tattoos. NCAA would get them then

I think this gets right to the heart of what people are having a hard time accepting. The Paterno-Sandusky scandal doesn't really have anything to do with football per se. Yes, it occured in a football program, and yes the football program benefited in the short run by not having this scandal exposed earlier (although it's being damaged much more now). But this isn't about a team getting an unfair advantage over other teams through recruiting violations or stuff like that. This is a scandal that could have and does happen in all sorts of other ogranizations, such as the Catholic church. And that's why the NCAA doesn't really have a role here. It's not the NCAA's job to enforce criminal law, any more than it's the FBI's job to monitor compliance with recruiting protocols. What happened at Penn State is a criminal matter, not a football matter. Let the criminal justice system do it's thing, and let the NCAA stick to its proper place.

2 kids getting a free t shirt or a few kids getting free tattoos doesn't give a competitive advantageIt certainly is a football issue. A coach was raping kids. The head coach was covering it up. Over and over and over. And letting the rapist and kids continue to come into football facilities for repeated rapingsAll of this occurred over and over because a few didn't want the football program to be affected. Still looks like some will overlook anything to help the football team. Priorities!

It's bigger than a football issue. Reducing it to such is simply wrong.

 

[Sinn Fein]

"Well I was going to cover up some child molesting that's going on, but since the NCAA came down on Penn State that time I don't think I should."

Its not about child molesting. People will go to jail for that. Its about not allowing football (and to a lesser extent basketball) programs to control universities. It is clear that PSU football controlled the actions of the University, not the other way around.How did that happen? Who enabled Paterno to dictate how a university president should react to allegations of criminal behavior. That should never be the decision of an athletic coach. That is where PSU, the institution, failed. Individuals broke the law, and they will be dealt with. The University allowed the football program to live by their own rules, and that should be addressed.

 

[The Commish]

"Well I was going to cover up some child molesting that's going on, but since the NCAA came down on Penn State that time I don't think I should."

Its not about child molesting. People will go to jail for that. Its about not allowing football (and to a lesser extent basketball) programs to control universities. It is clear that PSU football controlled the actions of the University, not the other way around.How did that happen? Who enabled Paterno to dictate how a university president should react to allegations of criminal behavior. That should never be the decision of an athletic coach. That is where PSU, the institution, failed. Individuals broke the law, and they will be dealt with. The University allowed the football program to live by their own rules, and that should be addressed.

The "programs" didn't make these decisions. Individuals did and used the programs to justify those decisions. There's a difference there.ETA: And this whole thing is absolutely about child molestation, first and foremost.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

According to the NCAA website, the "death penalty" is only for repeat offenders...

The repeat-violator legislation (“death penalty”) is applicable to an institution if, within a five-year period, the following conditions exist:Following the announcement of a major case, a major violation occurs andThe second violation occurred within five years of the starting date of the penalty assessed in the first case. The second major case does not have to be in the same sport as the previous case to affect the second sport.

Repeatedly allowing a child rapist over the course of several years applies in my opinion. At least penn state players didn't take a couple of t-shirts or tattoos. NCAA would get them then

I think this gets right to the heart of what people are having a hard time accepting. The Paterno-Sandusky scandal doesn't really have anything to do with football per se. Yes, it occured in a football program, and yes the football program benefited in the short run by not having this scandal exposed earlier (although it's being damaged much more now). But this isn't about a team getting an unfair advantage over other teams through recruiting violations or stuff like that. This is a scandal that could have and does happen in all sorts of other ogranizations, such as the Catholic church. And that's why the NCAA doesn't really have a role here. It's not the NCAA's job to enforce criminal law, any more than it's the FBI's job to monitor compliance with recruiting protocols. What happened at Penn State is a criminal matter, not a football matter. Let the criminal justice system do it's thing, and let the NCAA stick to its proper place.

2 kids getting a free t shirt or a few kids getting free tattoos doesn't give a competitive advantageIt certainly is a football issue. A coach was raping kids. The head coach was covering it up. Over and over and over. And letting the rapist and kids continue to come into football facilities for repeated rapingsAll of this occurred over and over because a few didn't want the football program to be affected. Still looks like some will overlook anything to help the football team. Priorities!

It's bigger than a football issue. Reducing it to such is simply wrong.

I didn't say it's only a football issue.

 

[Sinn Fein]

"Well I was going to cover up some child molesting that's going on, but since the NCAA came down on Penn State that time I don't think I should."

Its not about child molesting. People will go to jail for that. Its about not allowing football (and to a lesser extent basketball) programs to control universities. It is clear that PSU football controlled the actions of the University, not the other way around.How did that happen? Who enabled Paterno to dictate how a university president should react to allegations of criminal behavior. That should never be the decision of an athletic coach. That is where PSU, the institution, failed. Individuals broke the law, and they will be dealt with. The University allowed the football program to live by their own rules, and that should be addressed.

The "programs" didn't make these decisions. Individuals did and used the programs to justify those decisions. There's a difference there.

The culture of football is king enabled these decisions to be made. You don't think this happens for a former econ professor, do you? That is the difference.

 

[The Commish]

"Well I was going to cover up some child molesting that's going on, but since the NCAA came down on Penn State that time I don't think I should."

Its not about child molesting. People will go to jail for that. Its about not allowing football (and to a lesser extent basketball) programs to control universities. It is clear that PSU football controlled the actions of the University, not the other way around.How did that happen? Who enabled Paterno to dictate how a university president should react to allegations of criminal behavior. That should never be the decision of an athletic coach. That is where PSU, the institution, failed. Individuals broke the law, and they will be dealt with. The University allowed the football program to live by their own rules, and that should be addressed.

The "programs" didn't make these decisions. Individuals did and used the programs to justify those decisions. There's a difference there.

The culture of football is king enabled these decisions to be made. You don't think this happens for a former econ professor, do you? That is the difference.

Society is responsible for that culture. I guess we should all be thrown in prison. I think the decision makers make different decisions if it was an econ professor, so using this example simply tells us where the decision makers drew the line. They put football above these kids, and for that they should be punished and I believe they will end up sufficiently punished. Nothing is gained from extending the punishment to people not involved.I realize you won't agree with the last sentence here as you appear to believe that everyone up there was in on it and covered it up. If you truly believe that then you should be lobbying for a complete shut down of the school.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Question:How did the McQueary stuff come to light? This was not the incident that triggered the grand jury. The victim is yet to be identified at all. I don't know that prosecutors would have questioned McQueary about anything without some type of info. So did Joe, Curley, Spainer, or Schultz (the only people who seemed to know anything about 2001) bring up the incident to prosecutors prior to the grand jury?

The Freeh report does not specify how the McQueary stuff came to light, but it does mention that the Attorney General issued subpoenas in early 2010 for "certain documents" -- maybe those documents included emails that mentioned McQueary?

I remember something about a high school or middle school wrestling coach catching Sandusky and a student in the middle of some inappropriate "horseplay" and then reporting it up the chain. IIRC he was initially rebuffed but didn't take no for an answer and that is when the whole thing started to unravel. Anybody else remember this? I think it was in or around 2010.

Yes, that is how this investigation began.My question is how did anybody find out about the incident in 2001 if it was a big cover-up. The emails referenced in the report were discovered much later, as were Schultz's personal notes that are also in the report. McQueary eventually testified under oath, but how did they get to him? Did the investigation get to him early and randomly discover his knowledge? I'm just curious as to who was the first domino for the 2001 incident's discovery. It had to be McQueary, Joe, Curley, Schultz, Spainer, or Mr. McQueary as nobody else seems to have had any knowledge of it. There is no victim here that ever came forward. (which I think is why Sandusky was not actually convicted of raping this victim).

 

[The Commish]

According to the NCAA website, the "death penalty" is only for repeat offenders...

The repeat-violator legislation (“death penalty”) is applicable to an institution if, within a five-year period, the following conditions exist:Following the announcement of a major case, a major violation occurs andThe second violation occurred within five years of the starting date of the penalty assessed in the first case. The second major case does not have to be in the same sport as the previous case to affect the second sport.

Repeatedly allowing a child rapist over the course of several years applies in my opinion. At least penn state players didn't take a couple of t-shirts or tattoos. NCAA would get them then

I think this gets right to the heart of what people are having a hard time accepting. The Paterno-Sandusky scandal doesn't really have anything to do with football per se. Yes, it occured in a football program, and yes the football program benefited in the short run by not having this scandal exposed earlier (although it's being damaged much more now). But this isn't about a team getting an unfair advantage over other teams through recruiting violations or stuff like that. This is a scandal that could have and does happen in all sorts of other ogranizations, such as the Catholic church. And that's why the NCAA doesn't really have a role here. It's not the NCAA's job to enforce criminal law, any more than it's the FBI's job to monitor compliance with recruiting protocols. What happened at Penn State is a criminal matter, not a football matter. Let the criminal justice system do it's thing, and let the NCAA stick to its proper place.

2 kids getting a free t shirt or a few kids getting free tattoos doesn't give a competitive advantageIt certainly is a football issue. A coach was raping kids. The head coach was covering it up. Over and over and over. And letting the rapist and kids continue to come into football facilities for repeated rapingsAll of this occurred over and over because a few didn't want the football program to be affected. Still looks like some will overlook anything to help the football team. Priorities!

It's bigger than a football issue. Reducing it to such is simply wrong.

I didn't say it's only a football issue.

Did I say you did? To me, it's a molestation issue. You've said it's a football issue. What do you mean by that?

 

[tri-man 47]

According to the NCAA website, the "death penalty" is only for repeat offenders...

The repeat-violator legislation (“death penalty”) is applicable to an institution if, within a five-year period, the following conditions exist:Following the announcement of a major case, a major violation occurs andThe second violation occurred within five years of the starting date of the penalty assessed in the first case. The second major case does not have to be in the same sport as the previous case to affect the second sport.

Repeatedly allowing a child rapist over the course of several years applies in my opinion. At least penn state players didn't take a couple of t-shirts or tattoos. NCAA would get them then

I think this gets right to the heart of what people are having a hard time accepting. The Paterno-Sandusky scandal doesn't really have anything to do with football per se. Yes, it occured in a football program, and yes the football program benefited in the short run by not having this scandal exposed earlier (although it's being damaged much more now). But this isn't about a team getting an unfair advantage over other teams through recruiting violations or stuff like that. This is a scandal that could have and does happen in all sorts of other ogranizations, such as the Catholic church. And that's why the NCAA doesn't really have a role here. It's not the NCAA's job to enforce criminal law, any more than it's the FBI's job to monitor compliance with recruiting protocols. What happened at Penn State is a criminal matter, not a football matter. Let the criminal justice system do it's thing, and let the NCAA stick to its proper place.

Well-stated, IK. But I still cannot imagine the football program just rolling into the new academic year as though everything is 'back to normal.' Picking up on what others have mentioned, this would be the time for the PSU Board to say something to the effect of: "We recognize the damage that has been done, and we apologize to all those affected. We do not presume to know how the various authorities will judge our football program. But if PSU football carries on in the fall, we will donate 100% of the net proceeds for the next 10 years ..."

 

[Sinn Fein]

"Well I was going to cover up some child molesting that's going on, but since the NCAA came down on Penn State that time I don't think I should."

Its not about child molesting. People will go to jail for that. Its about not allowing football (and to a lesser extent basketball) programs to control universities. It is clear that PSU football controlled the actions of the University, not the other way around.

How did that happen? Who enabled Paterno to dictate how a university president should react to allegations of criminal behavior. That should never be the decision of an athletic coach. That is where PSU, the institution, failed. Individuals broke the law, and they will be dealt with. The University allowed the football program to live by their own rules, and that should be addressed.

The "programs" didn't make these decisions. Individuals did and used the programs to justify those decisions. There's a difference there.

The culture of football is king enabled these decisions to be made. You don't think this happens for a former econ professor, do you? That is the difference.

Society is responsible for that culture. I guess we should all be thrown in prison. I think the decision makers make different decisions if it was an econ professor, so using this example simply tells us where the decision makers drew the line. They put football above these kids, and for that they should be punished and I believe they will end up sufficiently punished. Nothing is gained from extending the punishment to people not involved.I realize you won't agree with the last sentence here as you appear to believe that everyone up there was in on it and covered it up. If you truly believe that then you should be lobbying for a complete shut down of the school.

I don't believe anything of the sort. I believe that people, students, alumni, players, coaches, trustees, allowed the football program to become larger than the university. That culture, created over years, empowered people to make very bad decisions. So, when I suggest shutting down the football program for a year, I am talking about putting things back into perspective. I am not talking about throwing anyone else in jail. I am talking about creating an environment where football players and coaches play by the same rules as everyone else. I don't think that happens without a drastic change, and I don't think that is asking for too much of a university.

 

[CrossEyed]

Franco still in denial.

For Franco Harris, search for Penn State truth continuesJuly 13, 2012 2:50 pmBy Brandon Boyd / Pittsburgh Post-GazetteFranco Harris said today that while he has doubts about the Freeh Report, he would be willing to change his opinion of Joe Paterno based on that report as well as other information that might be revealed in future trials of Penn State officials.Harris, who just returned from a trip to Texas, said he has only caught pieces of information about the Freeh Report from ESPN and CNN and has not yet had a chance to comb through the information released Thursday morning on Paterno and other Penn State officials."Oh, oh, sure. Yeah. As I said, we just want the truth," he said about changing his opinion on Paterno. "I don't think it's complete yet."Harris, the former Steeler and Penn State football star who played for Paterno from 1969-71, was one of the coach's staunchest defenders when the Penn State Board of Trustees fired Paterno in November 2011 in the wake of the child sex abuse scandal involving Jerry Sandusky."There's some players in this who are still very, very important, who were a part of this all.. . . ," Harris said in an interview in his office in McCandless. "I'm just not making a decision and I'm definitely not making a decision based on the Freeh Report."Harris said he questioned the integrity of the Freeh Report after emails from Penn State officials were leaked prior to the reports's release. One of those emails indicated that Paterno played a role in a decision not to notify authorities of a report that Sandusky assaulted a young boy in a locker room shower."I mean, they really lost me on the importance of it once they started doing things like that," Harris said of the leaked email. "They lost me as far as the integrity of it. What are they really trying to accomplish here?"Harris also questioned the truthfulness of the report, adding that he believes the eventual trials of former Penn State vice president Gary Schultz and former athletic director Tim Curley would say more about what really happened."The Freeh Report, a lot of people are taking it as gospel, that this is the truth. I don't think there's absolute truth to the Freeh Report. There's no way it can be unless you have the three [spanier, Curley and Schultz] as part of that. I've mentioned that for months now I've been waiting for that part of it more than anything else," he said. "I mean, at the Sandusky trial, justice was served. Justice was served and that was great. But now this one's a whole different matter. I really can't form an opinion on this one until this due process happens."For Harris, the "quest for truth" will continue to play out no matter how people interpret the Freeh Report."Some people will interpret things anyway that they want to go with their line of thinking, and I understand that. As they say, people don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are. But that's just human nature so there's nothing we can do. People are going to read it according to how they want to see it. So in our quest for the truth, we will keep going at it."And if information about Paterno's involvement continues to come out as future trials occur, Harris said he would be willing to accept it -- even if it speaks negatively to Paterno's character."The truth is the truth and I'm willing to accept the truth, there's no doubt about it," he said. "When that day comes, based on a number of events, then I'm fine with that. The Freeh Report doesn't do it for me."

 

[Joe Summer]

Question:How did the McQueary stuff come to light? This was not the incident that triggered the grand jury. The victim is yet to be identified at all. I don't know that prosecutors would have questioned McQueary about anything without some type of info. So did Joe, Curley, Spainer, or Schultz (the only people who seemed to know anything about 2001) bring up the incident to prosecutors prior to the grand jury?

The Freeh report does not specify how the McQueary stuff came to light, but it does mention that the Attorney General issued subpoenas in early 2010 for "certain documents" -- maybe those documents included emails that mentioned McQueary?

I remember something about a high school or middle school wrestling coach catching Sandusky and a student in the middle of some inappropriate "horseplay" and then reporting it up the chain. IIRC he was initially rebuffed but didn't take no for an answer and that is when the whole thing started to unravel. Anybody else remember this? I think it was in or around 2010.

The wrestling coach did NOT report Sandusky to anyone. He thought Sandusky's behavior was "odd", but didn't think anything criminal took place. He believed Sandusky when Sandusky said "We were just practicing a wrestling move!" It was that kid's mother who ended up reporting the incidents to the school, and the school eventually called the police. That's where the whole investigation started (in November 2008).

 

[timschochet]

When we start using the NCAA for law enforcement/punishment we are definitely in dire trouble. This whole shut the program down is ridiculous. It punishes everyone not the few people who were the problem. Stupid.

Exactly. There are a very small number of people who did wrong in this situation. What they did or didn't do is horrendous, but it is still just a small number of people. Everyone else associated with that university are now painted with the stink of this entire mess, and yet people think an appropriate next step is to throw more mud on them? Forget about the current student body and the far-flung alumni network. What about every player on the team's roster and, even more, what about all of the small business owners in the area who rely on the football program to keep a business open? They were completely ignorant that anything untowards was happening on that campus and yet they would be the most damaged by a program destroying punishment. Nevermind that the program is already going to get smoked for years due to this without any punishment applied.But hey, at least a punishment would hopefully send a message to every other program that they should report suspected wrongdoing. Of course, that message is almost certainly been sent already due to the negative fallout to the school's reputation. But far be it from me to step in front of a lynch mob hell-bent on justice.

This argument is valid for any team that is ever placed on a multiyear probation.

 

[timschochet]

"Well I was going to cover up some child molesting that's going on, but since the NCAA came down on Penn State that time I don't think I should."

Its not about child molesting. People will go to jail for that. Its about not allowing football (and to a lesser extent basketball) programs to control universities. It is clear that PSU football controlled the actions of the University, not the other way around.How did that happen? Who enabled Paterno to dictate how a university president should react to allegations of criminal behavior. That should never be the decision of an athletic coach. That is where PSU, the institution, failed. Individuals broke the law, and they will be dealt with. The University allowed the football program to live by their own rules, and that should be addressed.

The "programs" didn't make these decisions. Individuals did and used the programs to justify those decisions. There's a difference there.

The culture of football is king enabled these decisions to be made. You don't think this happens for a former econ professor, do you? That is the difference.

Exactly.

 

[Joe Summer]

My question is how did anybody find out about the incident in 2001 if it was a big cover-up. The emails referenced in the report were discovered much later, as were Schultz's personal notes that are also in the report. McQueary eventually testified under oath, but how did they get to him? Did the investigation get to him early and randomly discover his knowledge? I'm just curious as to who was the first domino for the 2001 incident's discovery. It had to be McQueary, Joe, Curley, Schultz, Spainer, or Mr. McQueary as nobody else seems to have had any knowledge of it. There is no victim here that ever came forward. (which I think is why Sandusky was not actually convicted of raping this victim).

Perhaps the police saw the emails in 2010 but they weren't leaked until just recently? Also, there were other people who knew about the 2001 incident:- McQueary's father- McQueary's father's friend- an unknown police employee (McQueary claims he talked to the police at some point)- the director of Second Mile (who was told of the incident but might not have been told about McQueary)- two members of the Second Mile board of trustees- PSU legal counsel Wendell Courtney (who was contacted about "suspected child abuse" involving "Jerry Sandusky" in February 2001)- PSU legal counsel Cynthia Baldwin (who found out in December 2010, possibly after McQueary was already subpoenaed)And while we're at it, how did the police find out about the 2000 incident with the janitors?

 

[tri-man 47]

When we start using the NCAA for law enforcement/punishment we are definitely in dire trouble. This whole shut the program down is ridiculous. It punishes everyone not the few people who were the problem. Stupid.

Exactly. There are a very small number of people who did wrong in this situation. What they did or didn't do is horrendous, but it is still just a small number of people. Everyone else associated with that university are now painted with the stink of this entire mess, and yet people think an appropriate next step is to throw more mud on them? Forget about the current student body and the far-flung alumni network. What about every player on the team's roster and, even more, what about all of the small business owners in the area who rely on the football program to keep a business open? They were completely ignorant that anything untowards was happening on that campus and yet they would be the most damaged by a program destroying punishment. Nevermind that the program is already going to get smoked for years due to this without any punishment applied.But hey, at least a punishment would hopefully send a message to every other program that they should report suspected wrongdoing. Of course, that message is almost certainly been sent already due to the negative fallout to the school's reputation. But far be it from me to step in front of a lynch mob hell-bent on justice.

This argument is valid for any team that is ever placed on a multiyear probation.

It strikes me that an argument of "the football program is too important (for players, students, staff, alumni, community) to be shut down" is exactly why it has be considered - that's the very mentality that created the culture where abuse was tolerated and covered up. Football was just too important.

 

[Christo]

"Well I was going to cover up some child molesting that's going on, but since the NCAA came down on Penn State that time I don't think I should."

Its not about child molesting. People will go to jail for that. Its about not allowing football (and to a lesser extent basketball) programs to control universities. It is clear that PSU football controlled the actions of the University, not the other way around.

How did that happen? Who enabled Paterno to dictate how a university president should react to allegations of criminal behavior. That should never be the decision of an athletic coach. That is where PSU, the institution, failed. Individuals broke the law, and they will be dealt with. The University allowed the football program to live by their own rules, and that should be addressed.

The "programs" didn't make these decisions. Individuals did and used the programs to justify those decisions. There's a difference there.

The culture of football is king enabled these decisions to be made. You don't think this happens for a former econ professor, do you? That is the difference.

Exactly.

Sure, school officials would never protect a pedophile if he wasn't associated with the football program. School officials would never protect a pedophile who was just a security guard or karate instructor. A teacher's union would never refuse to fire a pedophile.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

My question is how did anybody find out about the incident in 2001 if it was a big cover-up. The emails referenced in the report were discovered much later, as were Schultz's personal notes that are also in the report. McQueary eventually testified under oath, but how did they get to him? Did the investigation get to him early and randomly discover his knowledge? I'm just curious as to who was the first domino for the 2001 incident's discovery. It had to be McQueary, Joe, Curley, Schultz, Spainer, or Mr. McQueary as nobody else seems to have had any knowledge of it. There is no victim here that ever came forward. (which I think is why Sandusky was not actually convicted of raping this victim).

Perhaps the police saw the emails in 2010 but they weren't leaked until just recently? Also, there were other people who knew about the 2001 incident:- McQueary's father- McQueary's father's friend- an unknown police employee (McQueary claims he talked to the police at some point)- the director of Second Mile (who was told of the incident but might not have been told about McQueary)- two members of the Second Mile board of trustees- PSU legal counsel Wendell Courtney (who was contacted about "suspected child abuse" involving "Jerry Sandusky" in February 2001)- PSU legal counsel Cynthia Baldwin (who found out in December 2010, possibly after McQueary was already subpoenaed)And while we're at it, how did the police find out about the 2000 incident with the janitors?

Im pretty sure the feech report specifically sats these emails and documents were discovered by their own investigators and then turned over to prosecutors. This is well after the charges were brought. Correct me if im wrong, but isnt the 2001 unidentified victim referred to as "victim 2"? Meaning he was the 2nd victim investigated. I assume they got the janitors after they began digging more into psu and the football building itself. Which victim 1 had nothing to do with. I just find the process interesting. Somebody wasnt covering this up, otherwise it doesnt get out.

 

[fatness]

Question:

How did the McQueary stuff come to light? This was not the incident that triggered the grand jury. The victim is yet to be identified at all. I don't know that prosecutors would have questioned McQueary about anything without some type of info. So did Joe, Curley, Spainer, or Schultz (the only people who seemed to know anything about 2001) bring up the incident to prosecutors prior to the grand jury?

I guess the Second Mile guy was made aware of something in 2001. Did he bring it up during the investigation phase?

McQueary testified to the grand jury in late 2010. Someone let investigators know about the shower incident he witnessed. I don't know if it's known who let them know.

But for some of the kids, it seems much more likely that an insider–someone from Penn State’s Football program–alerted the grand jury. This is particularly true for Victims 2 (the boy McQuery witnessed being raped in 2002) and 8 (the boy a janitor witnessed being fellated in 2000), since their identities remain unknown to the grand jury.

link

Which leaves Victims 2–the unknown boy who was anally raped in 2002–and Victim 8–the unknown boy whom Sandusky allegedly fellated in 2000. It’s pretty clear that someone at Penn State had to have told investigators about these boys, as the boys haven’t been identified.

Now, two different janitors testified about Victim 8 (and more knew about him), though the primary witness suffers from dementia and did not testify. But it’s possible any one of the other janitors working that night (the two witnesses appear to still work at Penn State) heard of the investigation and alerted investigators.

But I also wonder whether there’s someone who knew of all of these stories: Victim 4′s rather public tie to Sandusky, Victim 2, whose plight was discussed 5 ranks up the chain to Spanier, and Victim 8, whom the night janitors learned of?

If so, that person probably came forward fairly late in the investigation. Mike McQueary testified before the grand jury in December 2010; Tim Curley and Gary Schultz both testified on January 12, 2011.

 

[igbomb]

When we start using the NCAA for law enforcement/punishment we are definitely in dire trouble. This whole shut the program down is ridiculous. It punishes everyone not the few people who were the problem. Stupid.

Exactly. There are a very small number of people who did wrong in this situation. What they did or didn't do is horrendous, but it is still just a small number of people. Everyone else associated with that university are now painted with the stink of this entire mess, and yet people think an appropriate next step is to throw more mud on them? Forget about the current student body and the far-flung alumni network. What about every player on the team's roster and, even more, what about all of the small business owners in the area who rely on the football program to keep a business open? They were completely ignorant that anything untowards was happening on that campus and yet they would be the most damaged by a program destroying punishment. Nevermind that the program is already going to get smoked for years due to this without any punishment applied.But hey, at least a punishment would hopefully send a message to every other program that they should report suspected wrongdoing. Of course, that message is almost certainly been sent already due to the negative fallout to the school's reputation. But far be it from me to step in front of a lynch mob hell-bent on justice.

This argument is valid for any team that is ever placed on a multiyear probation.

The primary difference is that the intent of NCAA punishments are to discourage programs from gaining unfair competitive advantage. This issue has nothing to do with that. The same could be applied to any large company. If the CEO hears that one of his managers is a pedophile and does nothing about it, he should be punished, but the company shouldn't face sanctions. But if they cheat on their taxes or lie in financial statements, he is breaking the law to give an unfair benefit to the company. Thus, the company gets punished. How is this so hard to see? You guys use completely nebulous statements like 'culture' and 'institution' to try to apply blame for this to everyone affiliated with the university. It's a few guys hiding something awful. It is a HUGE leap to say that the guy that painted his face is so passionate about his progam that he is partially to blame for some monster's actions behind closed doors. You're so blinded by a desire for revenge that you don't even consider the repurcussions.

 

[igbomb]

When we start using the NCAA for law enforcement/punishment we are definitely in dire trouble. This whole shut the program down is ridiculous. It punishes everyone not the few people who were the problem. Stupid.

Exactly. There are a very small number of people who did wrong in this situation. What they did or didn't do is horrendous, but it is still just a small number of people. Everyone else associated with that university are now painted with the stink of this entire mess, and yet people think an appropriate next step is to throw more mud on them? Forget about the current student body and the far-flung alumni network. What about every player on the team's roster and, even more, what about all of the small business owners in the area who rely on the football program to keep a business open? They were completely ignorant that anything untowards was happening on that campus and yet they would be the most damaged by a program destroying punishment. Nevermind that the program is already going to get smoked for years due to this without any punishment applied.But hey, at least a punishment would hopefully send a message to every other program that they should report suspected wrongdoing. Of course, that message is almost certainly been sent already due to the negative fallout to the school's reputation. But far be it from me to step in front of a lynch mob hell-bent on justice.

This argument is valid for any team that is ever placed on a multiyear probation.

It strikes me that an argument of "the football program is too important (for players, students, staff, alumni, community) to be shut down" is exactly why it has be considered - that's the very mentality that created the culture where abuse was tolerated and covered up. Football was just too important.

It's not too important to shut down. It's simply that the punishment doesn't fit the crime. Punish the people who perpetrated and DIRECTLY enabled the crime.Of course, I think we are far too quick to want to punish organizations in general for the actions of a select few. When 'the banks' fail, people declare they should be shut down. Nevermind that this would mean tens of thousands of jobs losses due to malfeasance by a handful. The same applies here. Punish the individual, not the program.

 

[Dragons]

My question is how did anybody find out about the incident in 2001 if it was a big cover-up. The emails referenced in the report were discovered much later, as were Schultz's personal notes that are also in the report. McQueary eventually testified under oath, but how did they get to him? Did the investigation get to him early and randomly discover his knowledge? I'm just curious as to who was the first domino for the 2001 incident's discovery. It had to be McQueary, Joe, Curley, Schultz, Spainer, or Mr. McQueary as nobody else seems to have had any knowledge of it. There is no victim here that ever came forward. (which I think is why Sandusky was not actually convicted of raping this victim).

Perhaps the police saw the emails in 2010 but they weren't leaked until just recently? Also, there were other people who knew about the 2001 incident:- McQueary's father- McQueary's father's friend- an unknown police employee (McQueary claims he talked to the police at some point)- the director of Second Mile (who was told of the incident but might not have been told about McQueary)- two members of the Second Mile board of trustees- PSU legal counsel Wendell Courtney (who was contacted about "suspected child abuse" involving "Jerry Sandusky" in February 2001)- PSU legal counsel Cynthia Baldwin (who found out in December 2010, possibly after McQueary was already subpoenaed)And while we're at it, how did the police find out about the 2000 incident with the janitors?

Im pretty sure the feech report specifically sats these emails and documents were discovered by their own investigators and then turned over to prosecutors. This is well after the charges were brought. Correct me if im wrong, but isnt the 2001 unidentified victim referred to as "victim 2"? Meaning he was the 2nd victim investigated. I assume they got the janitors after they began digging more into psu and the football building itself. Which victim 1 had nothing to do with. I just find the process interesting. Somebody wasnt covering this up, otherwise it doesnt get out.

When the initial charges came out, I thought there was a timeline of the investigation. IIRC, it was part of a story by or about that woman reporter who won the award relating to this story.

 

[The Commish]

"Well I was going to cover up some child molesting that's going on, but since the NCAA came down on Penn State that time I don't think I should."

Its not about child molesting. People will go to jail for that. Its about not allowing football (and to a lesser extent basketball) programs to control universities. It is clear that PSU football controlled the actions of the University, not the other way around.

How did that happen? Who enabled Paterno to dictate how a university president should react to allegations of criminal behavior. That should never be the decision of an athletic coach. That is where PSU, the institution, failed. Individuals broke the law, and they will be dealt with. The University allowed the football program to live by their own rules, and that should be addressed.

The "programs" didn't make these decisions. Individuals did and used the programs to justify those decisions. There's a difference there.

The culture of football is king enabled these decisions to be made. You don't think this happens for a former econ professor, do you? That is the difference.

Society is responsible for that culture. I guess we should all be thrown in prison. I think the decision makers make different decisions if it was an econ professor, so using this example simply tells us where the decision makers drew the line. They put football above these kids, and for that they should be punished and I believe they will end up sufficiently punished. Nothing is gained from extending the punishment to people not involved.I realize you won't agree with the last sentence here as you appear to believe that everyone up there was in on it and covered it up. If you truly believe that then you should be lobbying for a complete shut down of the school.

I don't believe anything of the sort. I believe that people, students, alumni, players, coaches, trustees, allowed the football program to become larger than the university. That culture, created over years, empowered people to make very bad decisions. So, when I suggest shutting down the football program for a year, I am talking about putting things back into perspective. I am not talking about throwing anyone else in jail. I am talking about creating an environment where football players and coaches play by the same rules as everyone else. I don't think that happens without a drastic change, and I don't think that is asking for too much of a university.

Do you think it's better for PSU to shut down things on their own accord or to have the NCAA make them do it? I disagree 100% with the "but I would have been fired if I exposed this. Football is too big for me to fight" position you seem to think the administrators were under. That's garbage. It was their decision. They need to own it. There's no excuse for it period.

 

[The Commish]

"Well I was going to cover up some child molesting that's going on, but since the NCAA came down on Penn State that time I don't think I should."

Its not about child molesting. People will go to jail for that. Its about not allowing football (and to a lesser extent basketball) programs to control universities. It is clear that PSU football controlled the actions of the University, not the other way around.How did that happen? Who enabled Paterno to dictate how a university president should react to allegations of criminal behavior. That should never be the decision of an athletic coach. That is where PSU, the institution, failed. Individuals broke the law, and they will be dealt with. The University allowed the football program to live by their own rules, and that should be addressed.

The "programs" didn't make these decisions. Individuals did and used the programs to justify those decisions. There's a difference there.

The culture of football is king enabled these decisions to be made. You don't think this happens for a former econ professor, do you? That is the difference.

Exactly.

You guys realize you're basically saying "society allowed football to become a rock for administrators to hide behind should they choose to do so" right? What boggles my mind is you're completely ignoring the fact it was still THEIR choice. That's where focus should be.Now I will say, I think it's in PSU's best interest to shut it down for this year (at least). I can't imagine the university being willing to put the kids and coaches in the position of having to deal with this, especially on the road. There's a part of me that thinks they might even want to think about changing the uniforms. I don't think the NCAA should have any say in this decision though.

 

[Joe Summer]

Im pretty sure the feech report specifically sats these emails and documents were discovered by their own investigators and then turned over to prosecutors. This is well after the charges were brought. Correct me if im wrong, but isnt the 2001 unidentified victim referred to as "victim 2"? Meaning he was the 2nd victim investigated. I assume they got the janitors after they began digging more into psu and the football building itself. Which victim 1 had nothing to do with. I just find the process interesting. Somebody wasnt covering this up, otherwise it doesnt get out.

I think you're correct about the emails. That's why the date of the McQueary incident was changed from "March 2002" to "February 2001" a few months back -- Freeh must have found the emails from February 2001 and notified the prosecutors.

 

[Dragons]

Im pretty sure the feech report specifically sats these emails and documents were discovered by their own investigators and then turned over to prosecutors. This is well after the charges were brought. Correct me if im wrong, but isnt the 2001 unidentified victim referred to as "victim 2"? Meaning he was the 2nd victim investigated. I assume they got the janitors after they began digging more into psu and the football building itself. Which victim 1 had nothing to do with. I just find the process interesting. Somebody wasnt covering this up, otherwise it doesnt get out.

I think you're correct about the emails. That's why the date of the McQueary incident was changed from "March 2002" to "February 2001" a few months back -- Freeh must have found the emails from February 2001 and notified the prosecutors.

This is exactly what happened in Sandusky's trial.

 

[Christo]

"Well I was going to cover up some child molesting that's going on, but since the NCAA came down on Penn State that time I don't think I should."

Its not about child molesting. People will go to jail for that. Its about not allowing football (and to a lesser extent basketball) programs to control universities. It is clear that PSU football controlled the actions of the University, not the other way around.How did that happen? Who enabled Paterno to dictate how a university president should react to allegations of criminal behavior. That should never be the decision of an athletic coach. That is where PSU, the institution, failed. Individuals broke the law, and they will be dealt with. The University allowed the football program to live by their own rules, and that should be addressed.

The "programs" didn't make these decisions. Individuals did and used the programs to justify those decisions. There's a difference there.

The culture of football is king enabled these decisions to be made. You don't think this happens for a former econ professor, do you? That is the difference.

Exactly.

You guys realize you're basically saying "society allowed football to become a rock for administrators to hide behind should they choose to do so" right? What boggles my mind is you're completely ignoring the fact it was still THEIR choice. That's where focus should be.Now I will say, I think it's in PSU's best interest to shut it down for this year (at least). I can't imagine the university being willing to put the kids and coaches in the position of having to deal with this, especially on the road. There's a part of me that thinks they might even want to think about changing the uniforms. I don't think the NCAA should have any say in this decision though.

You can put their little theory in the "debunked" category.

 

[timschochet]

"Well I was going to cover up some child molesting that's going on, but since the NCAA came down on Penn State that time I don't think I should."

Its not about child molesting. People will go to jail for that. Its about not allowing football (and to a lesser extent basketball) programs to control universities. It is clear that PSU football controlled the actions of the University, not the other way around.How did that happen? Who enabled Paterno to dictate how a university president should react to allegations of criminal behavior. That should never be the decision of an athletic coach. That is where PSU, the institution, failed. Individuals broke the law, and they will be dealt with. The University allowed the football program to live by their own rules, and that should be addressed.

The "programs" didn't make these decisions. Individuals did and used the programs to justify those decisions. There's a difference there.

The culture of football is king enabled these decisions to be made. You don't think this happens for a former econ professor, do you? That is the difference.

Exactly.

You guys realize you're basically saying "society allowed football to become a rock for administrators to hide behind should they choose to do so" right? What boggles my mind is you're completely ignoring the fact it was still THEIR choice. That's where focus should be.Now I will say, I think it's in PSU's best interest to shut it down for this year (at least). I can't imagine the university being willing to put the kids and coaches in the position of having to deal with this, especially on the road. There's a part of me that thinks they might even want to think about changing the uniforms. I don't think the NCAA should have any say in this decision though.

You can put their little theory in the "debunked" category.

What theory is that?

 

[The Commish]

Yeah, I guess I just can't reconcile the position from where I stand. Just doesn't make sense from any angle other than the "I'm pissed and everyone's going to pay" rage perspective and that POV just doesn't help IMO.

 

[timschochet]

"Well I was going to cover up some child molesting that's going on, but since the NCAA came down on Penn State that time I don't think I should."

Its not about child molesting. People will go to jail for that. Its about not allowing football (and to a lesser extent basketball) programs to control universities. It is clear that PSU football controlled the actions of the University, not the other way around.

How did that happen? Who enabled Paterno to dictate how a university president should react to allegations of criminal behavior. That should never be the decision of an athletic coach. That is where PSU, the institution, failed. Individuals broke the law, and they will be dealt with. The University allowed the football program to live by their own rules, and that should be addressed.

The "programs" didn't make these decisions. Individuals did and used the programs to justify those decisions. There's a difference there.

The culture of football is king enabled these decisions to be made. You don't think this happens for a former econ professor, do you? That is the difference.

Exactly.

You guys realize you're basically saying "society allowed football to become a rock for administrators to hide behind should they choose to do so" right? What boggles my mind is you're completely ignoring the fact it was still THEIR choice. That's where focus should be.Now I will say, I think it's in PSU's best interest to shut it down for this year (at least). I can't imagine the university being willing to put the kids and coaches in the position of having to deal with this, especially on the road. There's a part of me that thinks they might even want to think about changing the uniforms. I don't think the NCAA should have any say in this decision though.

I would go along with this. I certainly don't think there should be a permanent end to the football program. But if they play their games like normal, and if the university rakes in the money, like normal, I think that will be an unjust result.

 

[timschochet]

Yeah, I guess I just can't reconcile the position from where I stand. Just doesn't make sense from any angle other than the "I'm pissed and everyone's going to pay" rage perspective and that POV just doesn't help IMO.

Perhaps that may describe other people but it doesn't describe me. I'm trying to look at this situation rationally. A pedophile used the greatness of the football program to molest children for years. The legendary head coach, school president, athletic director and assistant athletic director covered it up and allowed the pedophile to continue, in order to protect the good name of the football program, which made an incredible amount of money during this time. Given these facts, you punish the individuals involved, and you shut down the football program for a time. To me that makes total sense, not from anger, but from justice and what should be done. That's simply the way I see it. I can understand why you might disagree, but please don't relegate my position to one of rage.