Jerry Sandusky accused of child molestation (4 Viewers)

[Koya]

DD - holy ####. Talk about a thread taking a turn. A serious one at that.

Honestly, if you want the guy uncovered there needs to be some investigation to gather SOMEthing. A few options here: hire an investigator, go to some law enforcement unit that you feel it's trustworthy considering the high level of the suspect, find an organization that assists with abused children and/or go to a reputable press source with enough that they know you are not bsing and let them investigate as the difference between them and a PI is their payday is the story and their resources and sources are likely stronger.

Good luck man.

 

[Koya]

Just to clarify - I was referring to Contrux and Joffer, not Koya. I get Koya's indignation too. To this day this story is one of the more shocking storyline so can remember following.

Btw, for lack of the old "I have friends who are black!" line, some of the absolute best and most selfless people I know are Penn State grads and I know many are aghast at any recognition for someone who utterly failed so many innocent children - at best.

But it still shukes me how many will support this guy who at best is a coward as a failure in life, which says a lot considering the range of success on the field and leading men - and at worst is complicit and responsible for the suffering of innocent kids.

 

[BassNBrew]

I have a topic-related question.

This guy I work with, who has always creeped me out going back to when we worked in overseas together, got caught with child porn on his computer when he was working out west. Now I don't have direct knowledge of this, but I got it from an extremely reliable source. This guy is in a supervisory position above military people and I feel like I need to do something.

Now when he worked out west it was part of the organization I work in now, but it was swept under the rug because apparently it wasn't "excessive." There was also a much bigger issue at that place at the very same time, which ended up taking the focus off of him. To me one of those pictures is "excessive" and I don't think he should be working in our establishment at all. What is the right move here? I can't just accuse him of doing this without real proof. People know about it out west though, all it would take is a few calls.

I say: call your contacts "out west", but be discreet. Make copious notes of all conversations. You never know who might be on this guy's side (for whatever reasons). At this point you would not only be exposing a child porn user, but you'd also be exposing all the people who protected him and covered up a felony.

The guy who initially told me this is definitely not on his side, he was pissed the guy was fired back then. The other people who I know know, I don't trust them at all. I have a dilemma here trying to do the right thing, but I'm not really sure what the right thing is.

Dang dude, that's a tough one. Honestly you'll have to figure this one out yourself…you're an old pro in your ranks and know the drill better than anyone here.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

DD - holy ####. Talk about a thread taking a turn. A serious one at that.

Honestly, if you want the guy uncovered there needs to be some investigation to gather SOMEthing. A few options here: hire an investigator, go to some law enforcement unit that you feel it's trustworthy considering the high level of the suspect, find an organization that assists with abused children and/or go to a reputable press source with enough that they know you are not bsing and let them investigate as the difference between them and a PI is their payday is the story and their resources and sources are likely stronger.

Good luck man.

Thanks, just trying to solicit some ideas that might help. I think I need to call my source and get some particulars about the investigation at the time it happened. All I really need is a written record, and I'm guessing that that actually exists somewhere. But I bet it's buried deep.

Another thing about this guy is his teenage son is very screwed up. He and his wife keep the kid heavily medicated and basically a prisoner because he has a "learning disability." A friend of the family says it's all bs, kid is just screwed up and acts very gay. Wife is a super bible-thumper, and who knows what else he's had to endure. I'm hoping he runs away someday and never comes back, he's like 18 or 19 now. Daughter is like 22, she is pretty normal.

And believe me, I don't get involved in workplace gossip about people's families normally. Circumstances however have drawn me into learning more.

 

[fatness]

Build a statue of him and then tear it down?

Seriously though, that's a tough one. I would maybe talk to your boss about it but don't mention who it is??

I actually flat out told my boss. He's leaving too though and he's not going to pass this info on IMO. I thought about dropping an anonymous note in the suggestion box, but that's just not my style. It would at least make them look at him a little closer though. This guy is angling to become one of the bigger bosses, I don't think that should happen.

Sounds like everyone else in your organization wants to ignore it, walk way, or "focus on more Important things".

Get ready to be vilified.

 

[Ned Ryerson]

Just to clarify - I was referring to Contrux and Joffer, not Koya. I get Koya's indignation too. To this day this story is one of the more shocking storyline so can remember following.

Btw, for lack of the old "I have friends who are black!" line, some of the absolute best and most selfless people I know are Penn State grads and I know many are aghast at any recognition for someone who utterly failed so many innocent children - at best.

But it still shukes me how many will support this guy who at best is a coward as a failure in life, which says a lot considering the range of success on the field and leading men - and at worst is complicit and responsible for the suffering of innocent kids.

I'm a PSU grad, and far from a JoePa apologist, but I think that to say this is the best you can say about him is a stretch.

 

[Chaka]

DD - holy ####. Talk about a thread taking a turn. A serious one at that.

Honestly, if you want the guy uncovered there needs to be some investigation to gather SOMEthing. A few options here: hire an investigator, go to some law enforcement unit that you feel it's trustworthy considering the high level of the suspect, find an organization that assists with abused children and/or go to a reputable press source with enough that they know you are not bsing and let them investigate as the difference between them and a PI is their payday is the story and their resources and sources are likely stronger.

Good luck man.

Thanks, just trying to solicit some ideas that might help. I think I need to call my source and get some particulars about the investigation at the time it happened. All I really need is a written record, and I'm guessing that that actually exists somewhere. But I bet it's buried deep.

Another thing about this guy is his teenage son is very screwed up. He and his wife keep the kid heavily medicated and basically a prisoner because he has a "learning disability." A friend of the family says it's all bs, kid is just screwed up and acts very gay. Wife is a super bible-thumper, and who knows what else he's had to endure. I'm hoping he runs away someday and never comes back, he's like 18 or 19 now. Daughter is like 22, she is pretty normal.

And believe me, I don't get involved in workplace gossip about people's families normally. Circumstances however have drawn me into learning more.

Everything you have said so far is weak circumstantial evidence.

This guy is probably a slime ball but I hope that you would get actual concrete proof of that fact before you ruin his career because what if you are wrong?

 

[Todd Andrews]

I'm curious what the PSU folks around here think about the statue.

Don't really care either way. I think his legacy is tarnished but not completely obliterated by his failure to follow up in 2001. I think he still did a great job coaching and helping young men. I think he meant a lot to the university, town and state. People with those credentials generally get a statue somewhere. Hell, Nick Saban has a statue, doesn't he?Anyway, if people want to get fired up about it, go nuts. I think that's a waste of breath and outrage myself.

Obliterated SHOULD be an understatement.

Apparently not. And my post above rings all the more true. Really unfortunate.

:sigh:

That statute should be melted down and poured molten down Sanduskey's throat.

 

[Koya]

Just to clarify - I was referring to Contrux and Joffer, not Koya. I get Koya's indignation too. To this day this story is one of the more shocking storyline so can remember following.

Btw, for lack of the old "I have friends who are black!" line, some of the absolute best and most selfless people I know are Penn State grads and I know many are aghast at any recognition for someone who utterly failed so many innocent children - at best.But it still shukes me how many will support this guy who at best is a coward as a failure in life, which says a lot considering the range of success on the field and leading men - and at worst is complicit and responsible for the suffering of innocent kids.

I'm a PSU grad, and far from a JoePa apologist, but I think that to say this is the best you can say about him is a stretch.

When your lapse of judgement is to put your own legacy and that of your football program ahead of the well being of children who are being abused, then your legacy is now of someone who not only turned a blind eye, but selfishly allowed the lives of children be destroyed.

THAT is his legacy now. And it overshadows any and everything else. His choice. Or choices. His selfishness. His cruelness and lack of humanity.

To your point his accomplishments should not be forgotten, nor the good he did. But Paterno will always be the guy who, other than Sandusky himself, is likely the single most responsible person that allowed rampant child abuse to occur who happened to also do some great things as a coach and leader while allowing this abuse to continue. Hardly statue worthy I'd say.

 

[fatness]

Oh to be a pigeon.

 

[Fat Nick]

I get those two responses. I figured some would prefer it just not be brought up again and some wouldn't care. One thing I'll say is even though I've disagreed with some of the PSU Alums it's been impressive how supportive they've been of the school and each other. I would call it almost loyal to a fault though as I think that is why some still defend Paterno or have a don't care attitude. They don't want to turn on one of their own out of loyalty. I get it but also understand why others can find it appalling.

PSU grad here...I think the bold sums it up best. I've been waiting for this issue to die...for a while. The Paterno family, and to some extent, the folks fighting the consent decree, won't let that happen. I think most alumni just want to move on. There's no good in bringing it up. Even if they lift the consent decree...even if Paterno's family gets his records reinstated...the damage is long done.

As for Paterno and the Paterno statue...You can ask for opinions all you want. I'm not allowed to have mine without being flamed here and called every name under the sun by people who's simple argument is that it's unfathomable to support someone who enabled a child rapist. If it was that black and white, I'd agree...but -I- don't think it is. Regardless, nobody here has been able to even mention anything pro-Paterno without being completely lambasted here for some time, and what frustrates me is that 80% of the people really have very little idea of his impact on Penn State culture, beyond football, and just write it off to being a cult of crazy yahoos who blindly march to the beat of his drum. That's a very easy statement to make, and I completely see why some folks see it that way...but the flip side is that it's a very hard thing to argue any other way to someone not tied to the school...

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Everything you have said so far is weak circumstantial evidence.


This guy is probably a slime ball but I hope that you would get actual concrete proof of that fact before you ruin his career because what if you are wrong?

Yes, I understand all this.

 

[SacramentoBob]

If he got caught with child porn before, it's likely he'll do it again. Might be best to just wait and catch him in the act.

 

[Chaka]

Everything you have said so far is weak circumstantial evidence.


This guy is probably a slime ball but I hope that you would get actual concrete proof of that fact before you ruin his career because what if you are wrong?

Yes, I understand all this.

Do you?

I actually flat out told my boss.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Everything you have said so far is weak circumstantial evidence.


This guy is probably a slime ball but I hope that you would get actual concrete proof of that fact before you ruin his career because what if you are wrong?

Yes, I understand all this.

Do you?

I actually flat out told my boss.

Did you miss the sentence right after that sentence, or are you purposely being obtuse?

 

[Chaka]

Everything you have said so far is weak circumstantial evidence.


This guy is probably a slime ball but I hope that you would get actual concrete proof of that fact before you ruin his career because what if you are wrong?

Yes, I understand all this.

Do you?

I actually flat out told my boss.

Did you miss the sentence right after that sentence, or are you purposely being obtuse?

This one?

I actually flat out told my boss. He's leaving too though and he's not going to pass this info on IMO. I thought about dropping an anonymous note in the suggestion box, but that's just not my style. It would at least make them look at him a little closer though. This guy is angling to become one of the bigger bosses, I don't think that should happen.

So because he's leaving that makes it okay for you to have told the information without any proof? Am I missing something or are you purposely being obtuse?

Again, this guy may be a huge slimeball, and you may be right but if you are wrong then the taint of even the accusation will not wash off. All I am saying is to tread lightly and verify your facts before you accuse someone of being a child pornographer.

 

[Koya]

I get those two responses. I figured some would prefer it just not be brought up again and some wouldn't care. One thing I'll say is even though I've disagreed with some of the PSU Alums it's been impressive how supportive they've been of the school and each other. I would call it almost loyal to a fault though as I think that is why some still defend Paterno or have a don't care attitude. They don't want to turn on one of their own out of loyalty. I get it but also understand why others can find it appalling.

PSU grad here...I think the bold sums it up best. I've been waiting for this issue to die...for a while. The Paterno family, and to some extent, the folks fighting the consent decree, won't let that happen. I think most alumni just want to move on. There's no good in bringing it up. Even if they lift the consent decree...even if Paterno's family gets his records reinstated...the damage is long done.

As for Paterno and the Paterno statue...You can ask for opinions all you want. I'm not allowed to have mine without being flamed here and called every name under the sun by people who's simple argument is that it's unfathomable to support someone who enabled a child rapist. If it was that black and white, I'd agree...but -I- don't think it is. Regardless, nobody here has been able to even mention anything pro-Paterno without being completely lambasted here for some time, and what frustrates me is that 80% of the people really have very little idea of his impact on Penn State culture, beyond football, and just write it off to being a cult of crazy yahoos who blindly march to the beat of his drum. That's a very easy statement to make, and I completely see why some folks see it that way...but the flip side is that it's a very hard thing to argue any other way to someone not tied to the school...

I can understand why people would want to support him, he had a tremendous legacy. That said, for many of us, his legacy is now that of a child-abuser enabler, and that is such a horrific reality, even the immense amount of good he may have accomplished is far overshadowed by his putting himself and his program ahead of children - at the time, past, present and sadly, future. So much more pain could have been avoided, and it's hard for many of us to reconcile how some wish to reconcile that his past legacy overshadows the pain he did not try to stop and allowed to continue.

 

[culdeus]

Whatever happened with the rest of the people they were investigating?

 

[Sinn Fein]

He was a complex man - like all men, he had some good and some bad parts. Nobody is all good or all bad.

Not a Paterno fan, but I suspect he impacted more lives positively than lives that were impacted negatively as a result of his actions/inactions.

I am not going to begrudge anyone who wants to remember the positive things he did in life, since there will be very few conversations that don't also include the Sandusky stuff.

 

[johnnycakes]

He was a complex man - like all men, he had some good and some bad parts. Nobody is all good or all bad.

Not a Paterno fan, but I suspect he impacted more lives positively than lives that were impacted negatively as a result of his actions/inactions.

I am not going to begrudge anyone who wants to remember the positive things he did in life, since there will be very few conversations that don't also include the Sandusky stuff.

Now, suppose those who he impacted positively, were only mildly affected in a positive manner... and those who were affected negatively were ruined.

 

[TLEF316]

He was a complex man - like all men, he had some good and some bad parts. Nobody is all good or all bad.

Not a Paterno fan, but I suspect he impacted more lives positively than lives that were impacted negatively as a result of his actions/inactions.

I am not going to begrudge anyone who wants to remember the positive things he did in life, since there will be very few conversations that don't also include the Sandusky stuff.

This is the kind of rationale that drives me crazy. Yes, he was a great coach and was probably positive father figure to hundreds of football players. He helped a lot of kids get degrees and lead better lives. He donated a bunch of money and brought pride to a town.

But all that stuff, while nice is totally trivial, when you compare it to overlooking the actions of a child rapist.

Bill Gates donates billions of dollars to charity. His life has positively affected millions of people. But if he went and shot an innocent person for no good reason (harming just that one person and maybe their close family and friends) he'd still be an #######.

To me, letting even one kid be harmed (let alone the multitude that Sandusky hurt) more than cancels out writing a a few checks so your already incredibly well funded college can build a library with your name on it. Most of the Penn State fans I've met seem to feel otherwise.

 

[Sinn Fein]

He was a complex man - like all men, he had some good and some bad parts. Nobody is all good or all bad.

Not a Paterno fan, but I suspect he impacted more lives positively than lives that were impacted negatively as a result of his actions/inactions.

I am not going to begrudge anyone who wants to remember the positive things he did in life, since there will be very few conversations that don't also include the Sandusky stuff.

Now, suppose those who he impacted positively, were only mildly affected in a positive manner... and those who were affected negatively were ruined.

Sucks to be those people, and certainly you would have the weigh the impact on each ledger appropriately. My gut feeling is his good deeds outweighed his bad deeds.

I have no association with PSU, and generally don't give this topic much thought at all. I just believe that you don't erase positive accomplishments (not talking about money donations) with negative actions/inactions. You have to consider them all in their entirety.

Are we all only as good as our worst misconduct?

I don't begrudge those who feel differently - as I said, its not really worth the time thinking about it - Paterno had no impact on my life, positive or negative. I don't know the man to say whether he was more good than bad - but my observation is he had a far greater positive impact in the world than negative. I could be wrong.

 

[Koya]

He was a complex man - like all men, he had some good and some bad parts. Nobody is all good or all bad.

Not a Paterno fan, but I suspect he impacted more lives positively than lives that were impacted negatively as a result of his actions/inactions.

I am not going to begrudge anyone who wants to remember the positive things he did in life, since there will be very few conversations that don't also include the Sandusky stuff.

Now, suppose those who he impacted positively, were only mildly affected in a positive manner... and those who were affected negatively were ruined.

Sucks to be those people, and certainly you would have the weigh the impact on each ledger appropriately. My gut feeling is his good deeds outweighed his bad deeds.I have no association with PSU, and generally don't give this topic much thought at all. I just believe that you don't erase positive accomplishments (not talking about money donations) with negative actions/inactions. You have to consider them all in their entirety.

Are we all only as good as our worst misconduct?[\b]

I don't begrudge those who feel differently - as I said, its not really worth the time thinking about it - Paterno had no impact on my life, positive or negative. I don't know the man to say whether he was more good than bad - but my observation is he had a far greater positive impact in the world than negative. I could be wrong.

Is your worst conduct allowing young boys to continue to be abused while shielding the person doing it, further enabling him to abuse more young boys?

I've done some ####ty things that I hope I'm better than. But I'm obviously capable of being "that bad" - and it's human.

When "that bad" is continued abuse for kids and the good life for the abuser then it's something that heads up the list of who you are and what your legacy is and will be.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I'm curious what the PSU folks around here think about the statue.

Don't really care either way. I think his legacy is tarnished but not completely obliterated by his failure to follow up in 2001. I think he still did a great job coaching and helping young men. I think he meant a lot to the university, town and state. People with those credentials generally get a statue somewhere. Hell, Nick Saban has a statue, doesn't he?Anyway, if people want to get fired up about it, go nuts. I think that's a waste of breath and outrage myself.

Obliterated SHOULD be an understatement.

Apparently not. And my post above rings all the more true. Really unfortunate.

:sigh:

No offense, but am I really supposed to care what you think of my opinion?

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Just to clarify - I was referring to Contrux and Joffer, not Koya. I get Koya's indignation too. To this day this story is one of the more shocking storyline so can remember following.

Btw, for lack of the old "I have friends who are black!" line, some of the absolute best and most selfless people I know are Penn State grads and I know many are aghast at any recognition for someone who utterly failed so many innocent children - at best.

But it still shukes me how many will support this guy who at best is a coward as a failure in life, which says a lot considering the range of success on the field and leading men - and at worst is complicit and responsible for the suffering of innocent kids.

I'm a PSU grad, and far from a JoePa apologist, but I think that to say this is the best you can say about him is a stretch.

Wasting your breath. Or fingers, as the case may be.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

He was a complex man - like all men, he had some good and some bad parts. Nobody is all good or all bad.

Not a Paterno fan, but I suspect he impacted more lives positively than lives that were impacted negatively as a result of his actions/inactions.

I am not going to begrudge anyone who wants to remember the positive things he did in life, since there will be very few conversations that don't also include the Sandusky stuff.

This is the kind of rationale that drives me crazy. Yes, he was a great coach and was probably positive father figure to hundreds of football players. He helped a lot of kids get degrees and lead better lives. He donated a bunch of money and brought pride to a town.

But all that stuff, while nice is totally trivial, when you compare it to overlooking the actions of a child rapist.

Bill Gates donates billions of dollars to charity. His life has positively affected millions of people. But if he went and shot an innocent person for no good reason (harming just that one person and maybe their close family and friends) he'd still be an #######.

To me, letting even one kid be harmed (let alone the multitude that Sandusky hurt) more than cancels out writing a a few checks so your already incredibly well funded college can build a library with your name on it. Most of the Penn State fans I've met seem to feel otherwise.

Probably wasting my time, but read this: http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2012/09/24/120924crat_atlarge_gladwell?currentPage=all

Monsters like Sandusky are very, very good actors. It's very difficult to think they are the monster and the immediate reaction is to want to be 1000% sure of something before you make any accusation. Hell, the parents in Canada believed the teacher over their own kids. And look at DD's posts and his situation in the last two pages of this thread.

I know you're all internet tough guys who know everything and always would have done the exact correct thing in every situation. Real life is a lot more difficult, unfortunately in this situation.

 

[fatness]

Apologizing for heroes is easy, though.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Apologizing for heroes is easy, though.

As opposed to.....

 

[ConstruxBoy]

And just in case you think Malcolm Gladwell is a secret molester or something, here is another article concerning law enforcement experts at child molestation talk about how difficult they are to detect and accuse.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/blame-for-the-penn-state-scandal-does-not-lie-with-joe-paterno/2011/11/08/gIQADqMF3M_story.html

It's not as easy as you think.

 

[Dragons]

He was a complex man - like all men, he had some good and some bad parts. Nobody is all good or all bad.

Not a Paterno fan, but I suspect he impacted more lives positively than lives that were impacted negatively as a result of his actions/inactions.

I am not going to begrudge anyone who wants to remember the positive things he did in life, since there will be very few conversations that don't also include the Sandusky stuff.

This is the kind of rationale that drives me crazy. Yes, he was a great coach and was probably positive father figure to hundreds of football players. He helped a lot of kids get degrees and lead better lives. He donated a bunch of money and brought pride to a town.

But all that stuff, while nice is totally trivial, when you compare it to overlooking the actions of a child rapist.

Bill Gates donates billions of dollars to charity. His life has positively affected millions of people. But if he went and shot an innocent person for no good reason (harming just that one person and maybe their close family and friends) he'd still be an #######.

To me, letting even one kid be harmed (let alone the multitude that Sandusky hurt) more than cancels out writing a a few checks so your already incredibly well funded college can build a library with your name on it. Most of the Penn State fans I've met seem to feel otherwise.

Probably wasting my time, but read this: http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/atlarge/2012/09/24/120924crat_atlarge_gladwell?currentPage=all

Monsters like Sandusky are very, very good actors. It's very difficult to think they are the monster and the immediate reaction is to want to be 1000% sure of something before you make any accusation. Hell, the parents in Canada believed the teacher over their own kids. And look at DD's posts and his situation in the last two pages of this thread.

I know you're all internet tough guys who know everything and always would have done the exact correct thing in every situation. Real life is a lot more difficult, unfortunately in this situation.

I will have to go back and re-read DD's posts, but I don't think he has an eye-witness' testimony like Paterno did (or the political clout). I agree otherwise, accusations are very difficult in this area. :(

 

[Koya]

I'm curious what the PSU folks around here think about the statue.

Don't really care either way. I think his legacy is tarnished but not completely obliterated by his failure to follow up in 2001. I think he still did a great job coaching and helping young men. I think he meant a lot to the university, town and state. People with those credentials generally get a statue somewhere. Hell, Nick Saban has a statue, doesn't he?Anyway, if people want to get fired up about it, go nuts. I think that's a waste of breath and outrage myself.

Obliterated SHOULD be an understatement.

Apparently not. And my post above rings all the more true. Really unfortunate.

:sigh:

No offense, but am I really supposed to care what you think of my opinion?

No offense taken, and not at all. FWIW, my response was less directed at you than the overall position you take on this issue, which others certainly share.

That said, it's totally your call as to whomever you may care for, or not.

 

[Koya]

DD - where do you currently lean here? Again, if you really think that this guy is guilty, finding a way for a more investigative body / agency would seem the smart, and thoughtful, thing to do.

(than again, aren't ALL my ideas thoughtful?)

 

[AAABatteries]

And just in case you think Malcolm Gladwell is a secret molester or something, here is another article concerning law enforcement experts at child molestation talk about how difficult they are to detect and accuse.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/blame-for-the-penn-state-scandal-does-not-lie-with-joe-paterno/2011/11/08/gIQADqMF3M_story.html

It's not as easy as you think.

Hi Construx - question for you - do you think you would feel the same way if this story wasn't about Paterno but rather some other coach? To me it says a lot about what he did when you consider how well respected he was by non-PSU fans prior to the information coming out and now how most non-PSU fans feel now. I think it seems to outsiders that PSU fans want to believe he's innocent or misguided or whatever but the reality is that to everyone else what he did is reprehensible. I always really like Paterno and was glad his team starting doing well again. I was in shock about the announcement and still find it hard to believe. But I have to admit that I find what he did (and even more so others) to be unthinkable and I essentially lost all respect for him.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I'm curious what the PSU folks around here think about the statue.

Don't really care either way. I think his legacy is tarnished but not completely obliterated by his failure to follow up in 2001. I think he still did a great job coaching and helping young men. I think he meant a lot to the university, town and state. People with those credentials generally get a statue somewhere. Hell, Nick Saban has a statue, doesn't he?Anyway, if people want to get fired up about it, go nuts. I think that's a waste of breath and outrage myself.

Obliterated SHOULD be an understatement.

Apparently not. And my post above rings all the more true. Really unfortunate.

:sigh:

No offense, but am I really supposed to care what you think of my opinion?

No offense taken, and not at all. FWIW, my response was less directed at you than the overall position you take on this issue, which others certainly share.

That said, it's totally your call as to whomever you may care for, or not.

OK, understand, thanks. In "our" position, as PSU grads, it's hard to care about anonymous internet guys having an opinion. You just hope your family, friends and co-workers don't think differently of you. I'm doing fine there, luckily.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

And just in case you think Malcolm Gladwell is a secret molester or something, here is another article concerning law enforcement experts at child molestation talk about how difficult they are to detect and accuse.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/blame-for-the-penn-state-scandal-does-not-lie-with-joe-paterno/2011/11/08/gIQADqMF3M_story.html

It's not as easy as you think.

Hi Construx - question for you - do you think you would feel the same way if this story wasn't about Paterno but rather some other coach? To me it says a lot about what he did when you consider how well respected he was by non-PSU fans prior to the information coming out and now how most non-PSU fans feel now. I think it seems to outsiders that PSU fans want to believe he's innocent or misguided or whatever but the reality is that to everyone else what he did is reprehensible. I always really like Paterno and was glad his team starting doing well again. I was in shock about the announcement and still find it hard to believe. But I have to admit that I find what he did (and even more so others) to be unthinkable and I essentially lost all respect for him.

You know, I'm sure it's hard to believe, but I think I would if I heard all the same "facts" about it and read some articles like the ones I posted. In fact, I had a long conversation with a Florida State friend about how the same thing could have happened there in a sense with an older, super popular, super successful coach in Bowden and an older, long term DC (Mickey Andrews) that left without it being 100% clear why. So I'd like to think so.

But see the issue is that the people who care about this the most, who read everything they can about it and know the most recent and accurate "facts" are PSU alum and people like me. So I can read all those articles, know about the dynamics of Paterno and his career and his last ten years and make pretty reasonable judgements that are nuanced and gray. Someone like you or others here, who don't "care" to read all those articles or have all that knowledge (through no fault of your own), aren't going to be able to come to those same views. And it's easy for you to say we're just blind or dumb or enablers or all the things that guys like Koya say. But in reality, the truth is porbably in between your black and white view and our nuanced gray view.

And really, this is true of all "scandals" or events like this. The UNC academic issue, any political sex scandal, whatever. In fact I got into a discussion with a USC fan way back about the Reggie Bush scandal and I got my ### handed to me. Because he knew way more about it. Way more of the details, the environment, the "color" of the story. It doesn't mean that he was 100% correct, just that he was likely more correct about the actual truth than I was.

 

[Koya]

I'm curious what the PSU folks around here think about the statue.

Don't really care either way. I think his legacy is tarnished but not completely obliterated by his failure to follow up in 2001. I think he still did a great job coaching and helping young men. I think he meant a lot to the university, town and state. People with those credentials generally get a statue somewhere. Hell, Nick Saban has a statue, doesn't he?Anyway, if people want to get fired up about it, go nuts. I think that's a waste of breath and outrage myself.

Obliterated SHOULD be an understatement.

Apparently not. And my post above rings all the more true. Really unfortunate.

:sigh:

No offense, but am I really supposed to care what you think of my opinion?

No offense taken, and not at all. FWIW, my response was less directed at you than the overall position you take on this issue, which others certainly share.

That said, it's totally your call as to whomever you may care for, or not.

OK, understand, thanks. In "our" position, as PSU grads, it's hard to care about anonymous internet guys having an opinion. You just hope your family, friends and co-workers don't think differently of you. I'm doing fine there, luckily.

If it helps, I'm not especially anonymous. I'd also imagine torn allegiences for those who did graduate PSU, and I know a few. Paterno had been one of, if not the, greatest coach of all time in terms of overall respect, running a good, clean program. Being a leader and a role model.

IMO, which is just some guy (anonymous or not), granted, that's one of the greater points of sadness in this story.

PSU is far more, and better, than even Paterno's legacy in terms of football alone. That should be the focus from here on, imho.

 

[Koya]

And just in case you think Malcolm Gladwell is a secret molester or something, here is another article concerning law enforcement experts at child molestation talk about how difficult they are to detect and accuse.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/blame-for-the-penn-state-scandal-does-not-lie-with-joe-paterno/2011/11/08/gIQADqMF3M_story.html

It's not as easy as you think.

Hi Construx - question for you - do you think you would feel the same way if this story wasn't about Paterno but rather some other coach? To me it says a lot about what he did when you consider how well respected he was by non-PSU fans prior to the information coming out and now how most non-PSU fans feel now. I think it seems to outsiders that PSU fans want to believe he's innocent or misguided or whatever but the reality is that to everyone else what he did is reprehensible. I always really like Paterno and was glad his team starting doing well again. I was in shock about the announcement and still find it hard to believe. But I have to admit that I find what he did (and even more so others) to be unthinkable and I essentially lost all respect for him.

You know, I'm sure it's hard to believe, but I think I would if I heard all the same "facts" about it and read some articles like the ones I posted. In fact, I had a long conversation with a Florida State friend about how the same thing could have happened there in a sense with an older, super popular, super successful coach in Bowden and an older, long term DC (Mickey Andrews) that left without it being 100% clear why. So I'd like to think so.

But see the issue is that the people who care about this the most, who read everything they can about it and know the most recent and accurate "facts" are PSU alum and people like me. So I can read all those articles, know about the dynamics of Paterno and his career and his last ten years and make pretty reasonable judgements that are nuanced and gray. Someone like you or others here, who don't "care" to read all those articles or have all that knowledge (through no fault of your own), aren't going to be able to come to those same views. And it's easy for you to say we're just blind or dumb or enablers or all the things that guys like Koya say. But in reality, the truth is porbably in between your black and white view and our nuanced gray view.

And really, this is true of all "scandals" or events like this. The UNC academic issue, any political sex scandal, whatever. In fact I got into a discussion with a USC fan way back about the Reggie Bush scandal and I got my ### handed to me. Because he knew way more about it. Way more of the details, the environment, the "color" of the story. It doesn't mean that he was 100% correct, just that he was likely more correct about the actual truth than I was.

Don't think you are blind nor dumb, at all. And, you certainly have read up on this far more than I (although I'm sure you will acknowledge your natural bias. Some of us, if anything, respected Paterno and Penn State - it wasn't OSU or USC. It was what was supposed to be "good" about college football).

And again, I'm not personally attacking you, nor anyone else who sees it your way... but as you have an opinion, others have theirs and I have mine. This is a convoluted and honestly, completely ####ed up series of events.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I'm curious what the PSU folks around here think about the statue.

Don't really care either way. I think his legacy is tarnished but not completely obliterated by his failure to follow up in 2001. I think he still did a great job coaching and helping young men. I think he meant a lot to the university, town and state. People with those credentials generally get a statue somewhere. Hell, Nick Saban has a statue, doesn't he?Anyway, if people want to get fired up about it, go nuts. I think that's a waste of breath and outrage myself.

Obliterated SHOULD be an understatement.

Apparently not. And my post above rings all the more true. Really unfortunate.

:sigh:

No offense, but am I really supposed to care what you think of my opinion?

No offense taken, and not at all. FWIW, my response was less directed at you than the overall position you take on this issue, which others certainly share.

That said, it's totally your call as to whomever you may care for, or not.

OK, understand, thanks. In "our" position, as PSU grads, it's hard to care about anonymous internet guys having an opinion. You just hope your family, friends and co-workers don't think differently of you. I'm doing fine there, luckily.

If it helps, I'm not especially anonymous. I'd also imagine torn allegiences for those who did graduate PSU, and I know a few. Paterno had been one of, if not the, greatest coach of all time in terms of overall respect, running a good, clean program. Being a leader and a role model.

IMO, which is just some guy (anonymous or not), granted, that's one of the greater points of sadness in this story.

PSU is far more, and better, than even Paterno's legacy in terms of football alone. That should be the focus from here on, imho.

Agree with you, but again, you have a black and white view. Paterno knew exactly what was going on and just didn't give a #### about the kids. I think it's a lot more nuanced than that. And I think that in the summing up of a man's time on Earth, as though he was at the Pearly Gates of Heaven (insert your own Paterno in Hell joke here), it makes a pretty big difference whether he truly knew what was going on and purposefully did nothing, versus not understanding the depth of the evil and not following up nearly enough.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

And just in case you think Malcolm Gladwell is a secret molester or something, here is another article concerning law enforcement experts at child molestation talk about how difficult they are to detect and accuse.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/blame-for-the-penn-state-scandal-does-not-lie-with-joe-paterno/2011/11/08/gIQADqMF3M_story.html

It's not as easy as you think.

Hi Construx - question for you - do you think you would feel the same way if this story wasn't about Paterno but rather some other coach? To me it says a lot about what he did when you consider how well respected he was by non-PSU fans prior to the information coming out and now how most non-PSU fans feel now. I think it seems to outsiders that PSU fans want to believe he's innocent or misguided or whatever but the reality is that to everyone else what he did is reprehensible. I always really like Paterno and was glad his team starting doing well again. I was in shock about the announcement and still find it hard to believe. But I have to admit that I find what he did (and even more so others) to be unthinkable and I essentially lost all respect for him.

You know, I'm sure it's hard to believe, but I think I would if I heard all the same "facts" about it and read some articles like the ones I posted. In fact, I had a long conversation with a Florida State friend about how the same thing could have happened there in a sense with an older, super popular, super successful coach in Bowden and an older, long term DC (Mickey Andrews) that left without it being 100% clear why. So I'd like to think so.

But see the issue is that the people who care about this the most, who read everything they can about it and know the most recent and accurate "facts" are PSU alum and people like me. So I can read all those articles, know about the dynamics of Paterno and his career and his last ten years and make pretty reasonable judgements that are nuanced and gray. Someone like you or others here, who don't "care" to read all those articles or have all that knowledge (through no fault of your own), aren't going to be able to come to those same views. And it's easy for you to say we're just blind or dumb or enablers or all the things that guys like Koya say. But in reality, the truth is porbably in between your black and white view and our nuanced gray view.

And really, this is true of all "scandals" or events like this. The UNC academic issue, any political sex scandal, whatever. In fact I got into a discussion with a USC fan way back about the Reggie Bush scandal and I got my ### handed to me. Because he knew way more about it. Way more of the details, the environment, the "color" of the story. It doesn't mean that he was 100% correct, just that he was likely more correct about the actual truth than I was.

Don't think you are blind nor dumb, at all. And, you certainly have read up on this far more than I (although I'm sure you will acknowledge your natural bias. Some of us, if anything, respected Paterno and Penn State - it wasn't OSU or USC. It was what was supposed to be "good" about college football).

And again, I'm not personally attacking you, nor anyone else who sees it your way... but as you have an opinion, others have theirs and I have mine. This is a convoluted and honestly, completely ####ed up series of events.

I could not agree more.

 

[Koya]

And just in case you think Malcolm Gladwell is a secret molester or something, here is another article concerning law enforcement experts at child molestation talk about how difficult they are to detect and accuse.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/blame-for-the-penn-state-scandal-does-not-lie-with-joe-paterno/2011/11/08/gIQADqMF3M_story.html

It's not as easy as you think.

Hi Construx - question for you - do you think you would feel the same way if this story wasn't about Paterno but rather some other coach? To me it says a lot about what he did when you consider how well respected he was by non-PSU fans prior to the information coming out and now how most non-PSU fans feel now. I think it seems to outsiders that PSU fans want to believe he's innocent or misguided or whatever but the reality is that to everyone else what he did is reprehensible. I always really like Paterno and was glad his team starting doing well again. I was in shock about the announcement and still find it hard to believe. But I have to admit that I find what he did (and even more so others) to be unthinkable and I essentially lost all respect for him.

You know, I'm sure it's hard to believe, but I think I would if I heard all the same "facts" about it and read some articles like the ones I posted. In fact, I had a long conversation with a Florida State friend about how the same thing could have happened there in a sense with an older, super popular, super successful coach in Bowden and an older, long term DC (Mickey Andrews) that left without it being 100% clear why. So I'd like to think so.

But see the issue is that the people who care about this the most, who read everything they can about it and know the most recent and accurate "facts" are PSU alum and people like me. So I can read all those articles, know about the dynamics of Paterno and his career and his last ten years and make pretty reasonable judgements that are nuanced and gray. Someone like you or others here, who don't "care" to read all those articles or have all that knowledge (through no fault of your own), aren't going to be able to come to those same views. And it's easy for you to say we're just blind or dumb or enablers or all the things that guys like Koya say. But in reality, the truth is porbably in between your black and white view and our nuanced gray view.

And really, this is true of all "scandals" or events like this. The UNC academic issue, any political sex scandal, whatever. In fact I got into a discussion with a USC fan way back about the Reggie Bush scandal and I got my ### handed to me. Because he knew way more about it. Way more of the details, the environment, the "color" of the story. It doesn't mean that he was 100% correct, just that he was likely more correct about the actual truth than I was.

Don't think you are blind nor dumb, at all. And, you certainly have read up on this far more than I (although I'm sure you will acknowledge your natural bias. Some of us, if anything, respected Paterno and Penn State - it wasn't OSU or USC. It was what was supposed to be "good" about college football).

And again, I'm not personally attacking you, nor anyone else who sees it your way... but as you have an opinion, others have theirs and I have mine. This is a convoluted and honestly, completely ####ed up series of events.

I could not agree more.

Let's agree to leave it at that.

 

[Henry Ford]

Just to clarify - I was referring to Contrux and Joffer, not Koya. I get Koya's indignation too. To this day this story is one of the more shocking storyline so can remember following.

Btw, for lack of the old "I have friends who are black!" line, some of the absolute best and most selfless people I know are Penn State grads and I know many are aghast at any recognition for someone who utterly failed so many innocent children - at best. But it still shukes me how many will support this guy who at best is a coward as a failure in life, which says a lot considering the range of success on the field and leading men - and at worst is complicit and responsible for the suffering of innocent kids.

If you want to consult with an attorney, I'm willing and available tomorrow. Once I've sobered up from tonight.

 

[TLEF316]

I'll be 100% honest and admit that I haven't done much "research" into the side of the story that wasn't portrayed by the mainstream media. Guilty as charged on that one.

Honestly, I think my judgement will be forever clouded by the absurd "Joe couldn't possibly have done anything wrong" swell of support that the Penn state students, former players and alumni spewed for months after the story came out. Hell, in the very first press conference after Paterno got fired, some dopy student reporter asked the board of trustees if they were using this as an excuse to "get Joe out". The fact that ANYONE could seriously think that was the case makes anyone who takes a Pro-Paterno stance look like a lunatic by association. That's probably not fair, but that's how I feel. The students rioted after Paterno was fired. It was absolutely cultish and ridiculous.

Every Penn State alumni that I know (which is many) took this stance (No way Joe did anything wrong) immediately after the story broke. No questions asked. I saw a pretty funny GIF a couple of days after the whole thing broke. It was a picture of the stereotypical whitebread college student which read "Went to Penn state for one semester.....Joe Pa is pretty much my grandfather". That's pretty much how it came off to me. Total blind support. There are several people I no longer speak to (Penn State alums) because I just couldn't deal with them anymore over this issue.

The fact that stuff like the new statue (or the Paterno family funded "investigation" ) is still happening continues to make me angry. If this was any other couch (hell, any other public figure) in the country, there's no way there would be this kind of support. The only comparison I can draw is the lunatics in Europe and Asia who continued to worship the ground Michael Jackson moonwalked on despite all the evidence against him.

No matter what he knew, the fault is not 100% with Paterno. Maybe he was a senile old man who had no idea what was going on. But I still think he knew something, and as the God of that campus, he had the responsibility to do everything he could to stop it. I don't think he did that, which is why I can't respect him anymore (regardless of the many good things he did in his life) Maybe that's just me being blinded by a mainstream media with an agenda. I guess I'll never know.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I'll be 100% honest and admit that I haven't done much "research" into the side of the story that wasn't portrayed by the mainstream media. Guilty as charged on that one.

Honestly, I think my judgement will be forever clouded by the absurd "Joe couldn't possibly have done anything wrong" swell of support that the Penn state students, former players and alumni spewed for months after the story came out. Hell, in the very first press conference after Paterno got fired, some dopy student reporter asked the board of trustees if they were using this as an excuse to "get Joe out". The fact that ANYONE could seriously think that was the case makes anyone who takes a Pro-Paterno stance look like a lunatic by association. That's probably not fair, but that's how I feel. The students rioted after Paterno was fired. It was absolutely cultish and ridiculous.

Every Penn State alumni that I know (which is many) took this stance (No way Joe did anything wrong) immediately after the story broke. No questions asked. I saw a pretty funny GIF a couple of days after the whole thing broke. It was a picture of the stereotypical whitebread college student which read "Went to Penn state for one semester.....Joe Pa is pretty much my grandfather". That's pretty much how it came off to me. Total blind support. There are several people I no longer speak to (Penn State alums) because I just couldn't deal with them anymore over this issue.

The fact that stuff like the new statue (or the Paterno family funded "investigation" ) is still happening continues to make me angry. If this was any other couch (hell, any other public figure) in the country, there's no way there would be this kind of support. The only comparison I can draw is the lunatics in Europe and Asia who continued to worship the ground Michael Jackson moonwalked on despite all the evidence against him.

No matter what he knew, the fault is not 100% with Paterno. Maybe he was a senile old man who had no idea what was going on. But I still think he knew something, and as the God of that campus, he had the responsibility to do everything he could to stop it. I don't think he did that, which is why I can't respect him anymore (regardless of the many good things he did in his life) Maybe that's just me being blinded by a mainstream media with an agenda. I guess I'll never know.

Honestly GB, I think this is more your problem than theirs. But to each their own.

 

[TLEF316]

I'll be 100% honest and admit that I haven't done much "research" into the side of the story that wasn't portrayed by the mainstream media. Guilty as charged on that one.

Honestly, I think my judgement will be forever clouded by the absurd "Joe couldn't possibly have done anything wrong" swell of support that the Penn state students, former players and alumni spewed for months after the story came out. Hell, in the very first press conference after Paterno got fired, some dopy student reporter asked the board of trustees if they were using this as an excuse to "get Joe out". The fact that ANYONE could seriously think that was the case makes anyone who takes a Pro-Paterno stance look like a lunatic by association. That's probably not fair, but that's how I feel. The students rioted after Paterno was fired. It was absolutely cultish and ridiculous.

Every Penn State alumni that I know (which is many) took this stance (No way Joe did anything wrong) immediately after the story broke. No questions asked. I saw a pretty funny GIF a couple of days after the whole thing broke. It was a picture of the stereotypical whitebread college student which read "Went to Penn state for one semester.....Joe Pa is pretty much my grandfather". That's pretty much how it came off to me. Total blind support. There are several people I no longer speak to (Penn State alums) because I just couldn't deal with them anymore over this issue.

The fact that stuff like the new statue (or the Paterno family funded "investigation" ) is still happening continues to make me angry. If this was any other couch (hell, any other public figure) in the country, there's no way there would be this kind of support. The only comparison I can draw is the lunatics in Europe and Asia who continued to worship the ground Michael Jackson moonwalked on despite all the evidence against him.

No matter what he knew, the fault is not 100% with Paterno. Maybe he was a senile old man who had no idea what was going on. But I still think he knew something, and as the God of that campus, he had the responsibility to do everything he could to stop it. I don't think he did that, which is why I can't respect him anymore (regardless of the many good things he did in his life) Maybe that's just me being blinded by a mainstream media with an agenda. I guess I'll never know.

Honestly GB, I think this is more your problem than theirs. But to each their own.

Its possible, but I don't think so. I think they're just lunatics. I won't bore you with all the details, but there was a lot of "Thank God we can finally get back to football" WAAAAAY too soon after the story broke. I was absolutely disgusted by it. I've honestly never had less faith in humanity than I did after seeing the attitudes of my Penn State "friends" in those first few weeks.

Read the article by the way. I get that child molesters are sociopaths and deceivers by trade, but when I read things like "exploratory bear hug" I just can't see how any could have let this guy walk free for another 15 years. I don't think "horseplay in the shower" can ever be dismissed as "generational" or "Jerry being goofy". That's a red flag the size of Beaver Stadium and I can't believe it was brushed aside. I'm not saying you throw the guy in jail without evidence, but how can you continue to let him take in foster kids and help run a kid's charity after such accusations? Its mind boggling.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I'll be 100% honest and admit that I haven't done much "research" into the side of the story that wasn't portrayed by the mainstream media. Guilty as charged on that one.

Honestly, I think my judgement will be forever clouded by the absurd "Joe couldn't possibly have done anything wrong" swell of support that the Penn state students, former players and alumni spewed for months after the story came out. Hell, in the very first press conference after Paterno got fired, some dopy student reporter asked the board of trustees if they were using this as an excuse to "get Joe out". The fact that ANYONE could seriously think that was the case makes anyone who takes a Pro-Paterno stance look like a lunatic by association. That's probably not fair, but that's how I feel. The students rioted after Paterno was fired. It was absolutely cultish and ridiculous.

Every Penn State alumni that I know (which is many) took this stance (No way Joe did anything wrong) immediately after the story broke. No questions asked. I saw a pretty funny GIF a couple of days after the whole thing broke. It was a picture of the stereotypical whitebread college student which read "Went to Penn state for one semester.....Joe Pa is pretty much my grandfather". That's pretty much how it came off to me. Total blind support. There are several people I no longer speak to (Penn State alums) because I just couldn't deal with them anymore over this issue.

The fact that stuff like the new statue (or the Paterno family funded "investigation" ) is still happening continues to make me angry. If this was any other couch (hell, any other public figure) in the country, there's no way there would be this kind of support. The only comparison I can draw is the lunatics in Europe and Asia who continued to worship the ground Michael Jackson moonwalked on despite all the evidence against him.

No matter what he knew, the fault is not 100% with Paterno. Maybe he was a senile old man who had no idea what was going on. But I still think he knew something, and as the God of that campus, he had the responsibility to do everything he could to stop it. I don't think he did that, which is why I can't respect him anymore (regardless of the many good things he did in his life) Maybe that's just me being blinded by a mainstream media with an agenda. I guess I'll never know.

Honestly GB, I think this is more your problem than theirs. But to each their own.

Its possible, but I don't think so. I think they're just lunatics. I won't bore you with all the details, but there was a lot of "Thank God we can finally get back to football" WAAAAAY too soon after the story broke. I was absolutely disgusted by it.

Read the article by the way. I get that child molesters are sociopaths and deceivers by trade, but when I read things like "exploratory bear hug" I just can't see how any could have let this guy walk free for another 15 years. I don't think "horseplay in the shower" can ever be dismissed as "generational" or "Jerry being goofy". That's a red flag the size of Beaver Stadium and I can't believe it was brushed aside. I'm not saying you throw the guy in jail without evidence, but how can you continue to let him take in foster kids and help run a kid's charity after such accusations? Its mind boggling.

Did you read this quote in the story?

“We weren’t really prepared to call the police and make it into a police investigation,” one of the mothers told van Dam. “It was an indiscretion, as far as we were concerned at this point. It was all vague: ‘Well, he put his hands down there.’ And, ‘Well, it was inside the pants, but fingers went to here.’ We were all still trying to protect Mr. Clay’s reputation, and the possibility this was all blown up out of proportion and there was a mistake.”

That's from a mother. "Vague". Like McQuery stumbling through his story to Paterno.

The red flags are not nearly as obvious in real time as they are in retrospect from armchair quarterbacks. But I don't think it's worth arguing with you about it, to be honest. Have a good night.

 

[TLEF316]

I'll be 100% honest and admit that I haven't done much "research" into the side of the story that wasn't portrayed by the mainstream media. Guilty as charged on that one.

Honestly, I think my judgement will be forever clouded by the absurd "Joe couldn't possibly have done anything wrong" swell of support that the Penn state students, former players and alumni spewed for months after the story came out. Hell, in the very first press conference after Paterno got fired, some dopy student reporter asked the board of trustees if they were using this as an excuse to "get Joe out". The fact that ANYONE could seriously think that was the case makes anyone who takes a Pro-Paterno stance look like a lunatic by association. That's probably not fair, but that's how I feel. The students rioted after Paterno was fired. It was absolutely cultish and ridiculous.

Every Penn State alumni that I know (which is many) took this stance (No way Joe did anything wrong) immediately after the story broke. No questions asked. I saw a pretty funny GIF a couple of days after the whole thing broke. It was a picture of the stereotypical whitebread college student which read "Went to Penn state for one semester.....Joe Pa is pretty much my grandfather". That's pretty much how it came off to me. Total blind support. There are several people I no longer speak to (Penn State alums) because I just couldn't deal with them anymore over this issue.

The fact that stuff like the new statue (or the Paterno family funded "investigation" ) is still happening continues to make me angry. If this was any other couch (hell, any other public figure) in the country, there's no way there would be this kind of support. The only comparison I can draw is the lunatics in Europe and Asia who continued to worship the ground Michael Jackson moonwalked on despite all the evidence against him.

No matter what he knew, the fault is not 100% with Paterno. Maybe he was a senile old man who had no idea what was going on. But I still think he knew something, and as the God of that campus, he had the responsibility to do everything he could to stop it. I don't think he did that, which is why I can't respect him anymore (regardless of the many good things he did in his life) Maybe that's just me being blinded by a mainstream media with an agenda. I guess I'll never know.

Honestly GB, I think this is more your problem than theirs. But to each their own.

Its possible, but I don't think so. I think they're just lunatics. I won't bore you with all the details, but there was a lot of "Thank God we can finally get back to football" WAAAAAY too soon after the story broke. I was absolutely disgusted by it.

Read the article by the way. I get that child molesters are sociopaths and deceivers by trade, but when I read things like "exploratory bear hug" I just can't see how any could have let this guy walk free for another 15 years. I don't think "horseplay in the shower" can ever be dismissed as "generational" or "Jerry being goofy". That's a red flag the size of Beaver Stadium and I can't believe it was brushed aside. I'm not saying you throw the guy in jail without evidence, but how can you continue to let him take in foster kids and help run a kid's charity after such accusations? Its mind boggling.

Did you read this quote in the story?

“We weren’t really prepared to call the police and make it into a police investigation,” one of the mothers told van Dam. “It was an indiscretion, as far as we were concerned at this point. It was all vague: ‘Well, he put his hands down there.’ And, ‘Well, it was inside the pants, but fingers went to here.’ We were all still trying to protect Mr. Clay’s reputation, and the possibility this was all blown up out of proportion and there was a mistake.”

That's from a mother. "Vague". Like McQuery stumbling through his story to Paterno.

The red flags are not nearly as obvious in real time as they are in retrospect from armchair quarterbacks. But I don't think it's worth arguing with you about it, to be honest. Have a good night.

I know all too well that these creeps can hide in plain sight. This guy was my boss for 3 summers in high school. (I was a lifeguard) He was the varsity basketball coach at the next town over and I worked with him at numerous basketball camps. He would have been my HS coach if the classes that he taught had been available at my school (we hired a new coach my sophomore year. He was the runner up for the job).

As far as anyone know, his crimes were WAY after I graduated, but I certainly understand that these guys don't stick out like sore thumbs.

Nobody ever switches sides on this issue, and that's fine. But it just seems like the people on the Paterno side are Paterno/Penn state fans. The people on the other side couldn't care less that he won a bunch of football games. (I was never a Joe Paterno hater. How could anyone be prior to this happening?) It seems like that's the side more likely to be unbiased.

 

[fatness]

Apologizing for heroes is easy, though.

As opposed to.....

It's pretty surprising you even have to ask that.

As opposed to admitting all the harm they caused --- all of it --- through their actions or inactions.

 

[Buckfast 1]

I consider myself fairly unbiased in the whole Penn State debacle, and I've followed the story as closely as anyone. My wife went to Penn State and I've spent a good amount of time in State College, but I'm a Michigan grad myself and have no hesitation ripping on Penn State when deserved.

My personal opinion is that Joe Paterno has been unjustly demonized for the horrible crimes of Jerry Sandusky. I do not believe they Paterno ever consciously believed or knew that Sandusky was sexually abusing children. There has been no evidence that has ever shown that. Do I think Paterno was innocent and blameless? No, of course not. I think he deserves blame for what was likely living in denial of seemingly unfathomable accusations against what he considered a long-time friend and co-worker that he thought he had known for nearly 30 years. If someone said that your long-time friend/co-worker was raping children, what would your reaction be? I know that it would be psychologically hard for me to accept or believe.

I think that Joe Paterno died with more sincere regret in his heart than he had ever experienced in his entire life. I think Paterno was a good man who allowed the psychological pressures of denial and confirmation bias regarding the person that he had believed Sandusky to be for nearly 30 years to overlook what now seems obvious to us outsiders with the post hoc benefit of having all the facts that Paterno did not have at the time during which you are judging him.

Does Paterno deserve some judgment for failing to take more aggressive action when allegations were made against Sandusky? Sure.

Should that degree of judgment result in us treating Paterno as if he was complicit in child rape or have Penn State pretend that Paterno never existed? Absolutely not.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Apologizing for heroes is easy, though.

As opposed to.....

It's pretty surprising you even have to ask that.

As opposed to admitting all the harm they caused --- all of it --- through their actions or inactions.

I meant, as opposed to apologizing for villians? Of course it's easier to appologize for heros. They have more positives on their side of the ledger, and likely more reasons to cast a reasonable doubt or deserve some nuance, than villains. You might as well said that water is wet.

 

[fatness]

I think that Joe Paterno died with more sincere regret in his heart than he had ever experienced in his entire life.

"Sincere regret" isn't the way I'd describe lying to a grand jury.