Joe Flacco Traded to Denver - With a Poll (3 Viewers)

[Bracie Smathers]

Jamison Hensley‏Verified account @jamisonhensley

Ravens get an early fourth-round pick, which will help with the the loss of this year’s second-rounder that Baltimore gave up for Lamar Jackson

Jamison Hensley added,  Mike KlisVerified account @MikeKlis

It's the first of Broncos' two fourth-round 2019 picks (not the Demaryius Thomas fourth rounder) that goes to Ravens for Flacco, per sources. #9sports https://twitter.com/MikeKlis/status/1095766994538790912 …

12:19 PM - 13 Feb 2019

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I would imagine Baltimore goes after Tyrod Taylor in free agency to pair with Lamar Jackson and RG III.

 

[Buckna]

Flacco has the 10th most playoff victories of any starting QB in the history of the NFL. 

He started off very well, but only has 1 post season victory in the last 6 years, the same number as Keenum. Coming in as a rookie he had arguably the best defense in the league for the next 4 years running which certainly helped. Baltimore has been a defensive juggernaut for a long time, only once ranking outside the top 12 in pts or yards and 5 of those years ranking in the top 3 or better during Flacco's tenure.

 

[kittenmittens]

I think Flacco is a lot better than Keenum.

I also don't think that this prevents them from drafting a QB.  They should still do that - Flacco isn't a long term solution but he can get them by until a rookie is ready.

Maybe they can flip Keenum to the Skins or some other desperate sucker...

 

[The Frankman]

I was a Alex Collins guy the last 2 years, so it was common for me to watch a lot of Ravens games. The common opinion most of us AC guys is that Joe Flacco didn't need to be throwing the ball more than 25-30 times a game and his running game has to protect him. I mean he's better than Keenum, but only due to the fact he won't play scared.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

 The Broncos Super Bowl odds went from 100-1 to 125-1 after this QB "upgrade".

 

[MAC_32]

This is like saying I'm tired of Applebees every Wednesday, so let's switch to Ruby Tuesday.

it has a salad bar!!!

 

[-OZ-]

Reads to me like John Elway realizes he's not so great at drafting QBs.

Or signing them. 

The point about Denver still being the 3rd best team in the division is sound, but they have a chance at a wild card. 

 

[Elevencents]

This makes no sense to me. ESPN has a great graphic that says it better than I can. 

Since his Super Bowl win -

TD:Int ratio 1.4:1              34th out of 36

1st down pct 31%            35th out of 36

Yards per att 6.5.             35th out of 36

I get that the board is extremely biased against Keenum, and he is hard to defend, but saying Keenum is horrible and this is an obvious upgrade is just crazy talk. Flacco throws a good deep ball. That’s about the end of my compliments for him.

 

[menobrown]

He started off very well, but only has 1 post season victory in the last 6 years, the same number as Keenum. Coming in as a rookie he had arguably the best defense in the league for the next 4 years running which certainly helped. Baltimore has been a defensive juggernaut for a long time, only once ranking outside the top 12 in pts or yards and 5 of those years ranking in the top 3 or better during Flacco's tenure.

That's one heck of a cherry picking stat saying one payoff victory in 6 years so that you can take it right to the year he led his team to the SB. I mean come on, he has one playoff loss in those 6 year and that one game he lost he threw 4 TD's and but still lost in NE when the D gave up 35 points.

One loss in 6 years against the best dynasty we've ever seen when he threw 4 TD's and that's the game we want to use to diminish his playoff success?

If we are going to diminish his playoff success because he had a good defense, which certainly was a factor in his success early in his career,  I think we should give him a lot of credit for never having much to work with in terms of weapons.   He was, like Big Ben, more of a game manager during his early playoff success but in his last 10 playoff games when the defense was not so dominant  his team only scored less then 24 points once and that was 20.

I'm sure not going to argue he is elite but I would argue he's a lot lot like Eli is or was. He's a better playoff QB then regular season QB, when the moment gets big he keeps his composure intact.

 

[Tau837]

I think they should suck for Lawrence.  Flacco doesn't help them make it to the post season, or certainly doesn't help them win in the post season. He may win enough to keep them from drafting a good QB next year.  If I were Elway I would tank 2019 to get the #1 overall pick and draft Trevor Lawrence.  Much like the Colts did with Luck.  It's not often a once in a decade QB is available.  Most of the time it's your Drew Lock's, Josh Rosen's,  and Josh Allen's  and Daniel Jones' of the world.

Assuming you are talking about Tyler Lawrence of Clemson, he will not be eligible for the NFL draft until 2021, so tanking in 2019 to try to get the #1 pick in the 2020 draft won't get him.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

I think they should suck for Lawrence.  Flacco doesn't help them make it to the post season, or certainly doesn't help them win in the post season. He may win enough to keep them from drafting a good QB next year.  If I were Elway I would tank 2019 to get the #1 overall pick and draft Trevor Lawrence.  Much like the Colts did with Luck.  It's not often a once in a decade QB is available.  Most of the time it's your Drew Lock's, Josh Rosen's,  and Josh Allen's  and Daniel Jones' of the world.

Lawerence isn’t draft eligible for next year - so they’d need to tank the 2020 season.

 

[Hankmoody]

I think they should suck for Lawrence.  Flacco doesn't help them make it to the post season, or certainly doesn't help them win in the post season. He may win enough to keep them from drafting a good QB next year.  If I were Elway I would tank 2019 to get the #1 overall pick and draft Trevor Lawrence.  Much like the Colts did with Luck.  It's not often a once in a decade QB is available.  Most of the time it's your Drew Lock's, Josh Rosen's,  and Josh Allen's  and Daniel Jones' of the world. 

Lawrence is 2021

 

[Leroy Hoard]

I was actually torn between terrible and laughably bad.  He's not an improvement over Keenum in the sense that they aren't competing this season with either of these cinder blocks as their QB.  So they spent money on salary, gave up a draft pick, and got nothing advantageous in return.

Flacco's not even a great locker room presence.  He's always been aloof and doing his own thing.  He has zero personality or charisma.  I'm not sure I would want a rookie mentoring under him.

Yes there is no big reason for Denver to do this. Baltimore did well to unload the lunk.

 

[ZenoRazon]

I get this feeling Flacco knows Jackson is going to be a bust, but would never say that.

Best move for him  just not sure if it will be for Denver,

 

[Tau837]

About Flacco's deep ball.... I think the praise about it is over the top.

• In 2018, among QBs with at least 100 passing attempts, he was #10 in percentage of deep passing attempts, where deep attempts are defined as attempts 20+ yards downfield. So he attempted a lot.
  
• But, per PFF, among QBs with at least 10 deep passing attempts, he was tied for #39 in deep accuracy.
  
• As for his deep ball drawing a lot of penalties, I looked at the play by play at PFR, and I counted 3 times when Ravens opponents were called for defensive pass interference penalties for 20 or more penalty yards, which meets the definition above for deep pass attempts. There were 0 defensive holding penalties on deep pass attempts. So I don't think the idea that his deep passing results in a lot of hidden penalty yards was valid in 2018.
  

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

I was actually torn between terrible and laughably bad.  He's not an improvement over Keenum in the sense that they aren't competing this season with either of these cinder blocks as their QB.  So they spent money on salary, gave up a draft pick, and got nothing advantageous in return.

Flacco's not even a great locker room presence.  He's always been aloof and doing his own thing.  He has zero personality or charisma.  I'm not sure I would want a rookie mentoring under him.

This.  He's a poor man's Jay Cutler.

 

[Anarchy99]

I find this sort of odd for the Broncos. This may have already been covered, but Keenum is due $18 million in salary with a $21 million cap number. If he ends up off the roster, they take on $10 million in dead money. Flacco at this point already received all his guaranteed and bonus money, so his contract is straight salary for the next three years. He is due $18.5 million in salary. So the salary cap accounting leads us to either of the following two options . . .

Carry both guys and take on a $39.5 million cap charge at the QB position, while still not having a QB that would be considered in the top half of the league's starting QB's.  Flacco ranked 28th last year in passer rating and Keenum ranked 29th. Of active qualifying QB's, Keenum ranks T-20 in passer rating and Flacco 22nd. Keenum will be 31 and Flacco will be 34, and the needle is pointing down for both guys. Bottom line, neither one is likely to be the QB of the future for the Broncos, so they would still be in pursuit mode to find a young guy to come in and be there for a long stretch. So they would be taking on almost a $40 million cap hit to get below average production while still seeking out a long-term solution.

Or they could move on from Keenum and have a $28.5 million cap charge at the QB position. Everything from the above paragraph holds true, so the only real difference is they have one QB rostered instead of two (and still need a long-term solution at the position). Since winning the SB in 2012, Flacco has essentially been a .500 QB on a team with a stellar defense (Top 12 in yardage allowed all 6 years and Top 10 in points allowed in 4 of those years). If the Broncos return to being stout defensively, that would create an environment very similar to what Flacco had in Baltimore.

My assessment and take away from this is that this move weakened the Broncos. They essentially invested 10% of their salary cap by taking on another mediocre or below average QB. So now they have two guys that won't really help an offense. Essentially, even if they only went with Flacco and jettisoned Keenum, the salary cap charge at the QB spot (including the dead money for Keenum) would be that of a Top 3 QB, and there's no way Flacco sniffs the Top 3 in terms of QB production.

 

[Dizzy]

I chose "on the fence" as kind of a no feeling one way or the other answer... they slide a middling QB into place to replace the last middling QB they had... who replaced the last middling QB they had... who replaced the last middling QB they had... who replaced an aging legend (playing at a middling QB level).

 

[PhantomJB]

Or they could move on from Keenum and have a $28.5 million cap charge at the QB position.

According to Mike Klis, if they cut Keenum and he signs with another team there is offset language against his $7 million 2019 guarantee money.

So cutting Keenum gets rid of his non-guarantee salary...and then if he signs for, say, $5m somewhere else they only get hit with $2m, plus the $3m guarantee from his signing bonus.

That would mean $23.5 million cap charge for keeping Flacco and cutting Keenum in that scenario. My understanding, at least.

Doesn't change your conclusions and as a Broncos fan I agree and personally hate the deal.

https://www.9news.com/article/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/details-behind-broncos-acquiring-quarterback-joe-flacco-for-fourth-round-draft-pick/73-eee2e5e6-a5bc-4e3a-8a1d-1b4c6f703866

 

[Warhogs]

I'm OK with the deal. Although it is a short term move I do believe Flacco is an upgrade over Keenum and if they can affordably move on from Keenum that's even better. The pick they gave up isn't all that much to improve your starter at any position and especially at the QB spot. They obviously would still like to find a long term solution but look how many failures many teams have trying to fix the QB spot. The cost was inexpensive and IF Flacco can stay healthy he is good enough to keep them competitive in the short term. It is also hard to measure but it may position themselves to be more attractive to free agents as well if they look to be more competitive. 

 

[Buckna]

That's one heck of a cherry picking stat

It's only cherry picked because Keenum has only played for 6 years so I compared them over the same time span. During their same time in the league, they've basically been the exact same quarterback in every statistical measure except Keenum has been getting the same production and efficiency on multiple teams and without the benefit of a top defense year in and year out. Pointing to playoff wins in the distant past when his elite defense carried him has no little to no relevance on Flacco's quality of play currently which is declining quickly. The dude got benched for a rookie QB that passed for less than an avg of 175 yards per game.

 

[Buckna]

According to Mike Klis, if they cut Keenum and he signs with another team there is offset language against his $7 million 2019 guarantee money.

So cutting Keenum gets rid of his non-guarantee salary...and then if he signs for, say, $5m somewhere else they only get hit with $2m, plus the $3m guarantee from his signing bonus.

That would mean $23.5 million cap charge for keeping Flacco and cutting Keenum in that scenario. My understanding, at least.

Doesn't change your conclusions and as a Broncos fan I agree and personally hate the deal.

https://www.9news.com/article/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/details-behind-broncos-acquiring-quarterback-joe-flacco-for-fourth-round-draft-pick/73-eee2e5e6-a5bc-4e3a-8a1d-1b4c6f703866

That is interesting about the offset language, merely makes trading for Flacco a terrible move instead of god awful move. Although I doubt Keenum gets $5M from another team to be a backup, but you never know in this QB desperate league. He's probably on the level of a Ryan Fitzpatrick now who got $3.3M last offseason.

 

[Anarchy99]

According to Mike Klis, if they cut Keenum and he signs with another team there is offset language against his $7 million 2019 guarantee money.

So cutting Keenum gets rid of his non-guarantee salary...and then if he signs for, say, $5m somewhere else they only get hit with $2m, plus the $3m guarantee from his signing bonus.

That would mean $23.5 million cap charge for keeping Flacco and cutting Keenum in that scenario. My understanding, at least.

Doesn't change your conclusions and as a Broncos fan I agree and personally hate the deal.

https://www.9news.com/article/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/details-behind-broncos-acquiring-quarterback-joe-flacco-for-fourth-round-draft-pick/73-eee2e5e6-a5bc-4e3a-8a1d-1b4c6f703866

I certainly have no intimate knowledge of Keenum's contract, but from what I am seeing, even if DEN moved away from Keenum and the off set language would recoup them some of the $7 million in guaranteed money, I believe they would still have to also take a $3 million cap hit leftover from his signing bonus from last year. Either way, if I were a Broncos fan, I would be wondering what Elway's plan is at the QB position post Peyton, as they have swung and missed on multiple players at this point (not that finding a suitable QB is all that easy).

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

But Flacco is a horrible Mentor!  He ignored Lamar Jackson and wanted nothing to do with him.  Keenum would have been a better mentor.  

I agree that Sutton is a nice little bump but they could have done better. 

Joe Flacco is far from being the only QB  Who is interested in mentoring their replacement. 

Do you think Tom Brady is a great mentor to the back up QB’s? How about Montana?

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

 I think this is a pretty good move for Denver with little risk.  Joe Flacco is a type a quarterback who needs receivers that can go up and get it like Alshon Jefferies or Torrey Smith when he was younger. 

 

[Dr. Octopus]

According to Mike Klis, if they cut Keenum and he signs with another team there is offset language against his $7 million 2019 guarantee money.

So cutting Keenum gets rid of his non-guarantee salary...and then if he signs for, say, $5m somewhere else they only get hit with $2m, plus the $3m guarantee from his signing bonus.

That would mean $23.5 million cap charge for keeping Flacco and cutting Keenum in that scenario. My understanding, at least.

Doesn't change your conclusions and as a Broncos fan I agree and personally hate the deal.

https://www.9news.com/article/sports/nfl/denver-broncos/details-behind-broncos-acquiring-quarterback-joe-flacco-for-fourth-round-draft-pick/73-eee2e5e6-a5bc-4e3a-8a1d-1b4c6f703866

Of course his new team would likely just sign him for a league veteran minimum knowing Denver was on the hook and it wouldn't matter to Keenum what his new team was paying him.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

That is interesting about the offset language, merely makes trading for Flacco a terrible move instead of god awful move. Although I doubt Keenum gets $5M from another team to be a backup, but you never know in this QB desperate league. He's probably on the level of a Ryan Fitzpatrick now who got $3.3M last offseason.

Keenum is getting his $7MM either way - which also means his suitors don't have to worry about what they offer him (he'll just go to whatever team gives him the best chance to play not who offers him the most money).

 

[PhantomJB]

Of course his new team would likely just sign him for a league veteran minimum knowing Denver was on the hook and it wouldn't matter to Keenum what his new team was paying him.

Is that how the Osweiler Browns-to-Broncos deal worked a couple years ago?

 

[Buckna]

Keenum is getting his $7MM either way - which also means his suitors don't have to worry about what they offer him (he'll just go to whatever team gives him the best chance to play not who offers him the most money).

Good point. He may be even willing to do something like take a multi-year deal with a very low 1st year salary with a bigger increase in year two. It both sticks it to the team that gave up on him and provides some relief to his next team Edit: or the league minimum like your other post.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Is that how the Osweiler Browns-to-Broncos deal worked a couple years ago?

I'm not sure what you're asking exactly but the Browns were willing to take a second round pick to absorb the cap hit because they had the space.

The only point I was trying to make was that teams do not need to make significant offers to Keenum due to the offset language and he has no incentive to seek out a big contract due to being guaranteed $7MM either way - unless it exceeded $7MM (and that's not happening).

 

[Buckna]

I'm not sure what you're asking exactly but the Browns were willing to take a second round pick to absorb the cap hit because they had the space.

The only point I was trying to make was that teams do not need to make significant offers to Keenum due to the offset language and he has no incentive to seek out a big contract due to being guaranteed $7MM either way - unless it exceeded $7MM (and that's not happening).

I think he meant after the Browns traded for him, and they then cut him, the Bronco's signed Osweiler back. I do think it was for the league minimum in the Bronco's case so the Browns had to eat most of Osweiler's guaranteed money still.

 

[menobrown]

It's only cherry picked because Keenum has only played for 6 years so I compared them over the same time span. During their same time in the league, they've basically been the exact same quarterback in every statistical measure except Keenum has been getting the same production and efficiency on multiple teams and without the benefit of a top defense year in and year out. Pointing to playoff wins in the distant past when his elite defense carried him has no little to no relevance on Flacco's quality of play currently which is declining quickly. The dude got benched for a rookie QB that passed for less than an avg of 175 yards per game.

You responded to post I made about Flacco's postseason performance. The ONLY thing I was addressing was his postseason performance in response to someone saying he could not take you far in the playoffs. I was not comping him to Keenum, discussing his career. Basically none of the stuff you keep throwing up in my face as if I was discussing it.

 

[Ilov80s]

 I think this is a pretty good move for Denver with little risk.  Joe Flacco is a type a quarterback who needs receivers that can go up and get it like Alshon Jefferies or Torrey Smith when he was younger. 

Is Daesean Hamilton a jumpball WR? I don't know but I don't think so. Plus he's just a 5th round pick. He may not even be anything in the NFL. Sutton was kind of a dud last year given the opportunity. All Flacco is getting are 2 totally unproven 2nd year receivers. 

Joe Flacco is far from being the only QB  Who is interested in mentoring their replacement. 

Do you think Tom Brady is a great mentor to the back up QB’s? How about Montana?

Sure but Brady and Montana are 2 of the best QBs of all time. Brady just won a SB and is on what, his 3rd SB appearance in a row? He has a pretty good case for not wanting to mentor his backup compared to Joe Flacco who has struggled to stay healthy and struggled to be even average. 

 

[Anarchy99]

I went back and checked. PFF ranked Flacco 22nd, 23rd, and 23rd the past three seasons. Not sure what the upside is for the Broncos. Do they think that he will now be a plus starter at QB for them? The Denver offense isn't exactly loaded with weapons and the offensive line still is a work in progress.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Interesting poll options.

My first take before opening the thread (& I still haven't read replies) is "Great move for the Ravens!"

Will be 1-2 years before the Lions can do the same with Stafford. Can't wait.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

Is Daesean Hamilton a jumpball WR? I don't know but I don't think so. Plus he's just a 5th round pick. He may not even be anything in the NFL. Sutton was kind of a dud last year given the opportunity. All Flacco is getting are 2 totally unproven 2nd year receivers. 

Sure but Brady and Montana are 2 of the best QBs of all time. Brady just won a SB and is on what, his 3rd SB appearance in a row? He has a pretty good case for not wanting to mentor his backup compared to Joe Flacco who has struggled to stay healthy and struggled to be even average. 

I never said Flacco was as good as them. @tangfoot said he wasn’t a good leader because he isn’t interested if helping his own demise. 

Two of the greatest quarterbacks ever weren’t interested in helping their backup and by all accounts both are great leaders.

 

[Ilov80s]

I never said Flacco was as good as them. @tangfoot said he wasn’t a good leader because he isn’t interested if helping his own demise. 

Two of the greatest quarterbacks ever weren’t interested in helping their backup and by all account both are great leaders.

Fair. I just meant Flacco doesn't have much of a leg to stand on when he refuses to mentor. He's not been playing all that well where a guy like Brady can at least defend his position that he doesn't need to be replaced. 

 

[Arancione]

Is Daesean Hamilton a jumpball WR? I don't know but I don't think so. Plus he's just a 5th round pick. He may not even be anything in the NFL. Sutton was kind of a dud last year given the opportunity. All Flacco is getting are 2 totally unproven 2nd year receivers. 

Sutton is a future star. His jump ball ability is scary good and his catch radius is elite, he was a rookie and had a tough draw with Keenum as the QB. Here is a good thread on Twitter about him here.

Hamilton runs routes that are much more polished than than his tenure and both got some great experience last year (especially after Sanders went down). I am a bit of a homer, but I'd say Sutton and Hamilton alone are much better than anything the Ravens have (or have had recently) and if Sanders is healthy and they keep him (big assumptions along with his cap hit) they'll be in the top 20% as a unit. Without Sanders they still will be a solid group that has immense potential.

As for the Flacco move, it's pretty obviously a stop gap measure that will be a 2 year, low risk move to give some time to groom a long time starter (who they get this year or next) and was based off of 2014 and Flacco's solid play under Kubiak as OC (the new offense will be from the Shanny tree as well). The Broncos ability to snipe Munchak away from the Yinzers is going to help immensely in giving Flacco time to throw deep and establishing the run game. 

The Fangio hire was against the grain, but I think a very solid decision. They are going to rely on the D and play smart on offense with some well timed down the field shots. This will be a team that won't play scared, won't make bone headed decisions like under Joseph and I guarantee they will be much improved from the second most penalized group in the league in 2019.

 

[PhantomJB]

I think he meant after the Browns traded for him, and they then cut him, the Bronco's signed Osweiler back. I do think it was for the league minimum in the Bronco's case so the Browns had to eat most of Osweiler's guaranteed money still.

Exactly. Thanks.

Browns were hook for Osweiler's $16mm guarantee. Then cut him. He then signed with Broncos for league minimum $775K, leaving Browns with net $15.25 obligation. I'm assuming the salary cap math followed the guarantee math but not sure.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2017/09/brock_osweiler_agrees_to_terms.html

 

[Ilov80s]

Sutton is a future star. His jump ball ability is scary good and his catch radius is elite, he was a rookie and had a tough draw with Keenum as the QB. Here is a good thread on Twitter about him here.

Hamilton runs routes that are much more polished than than his tenure and both got some great experience last year (especially after Sanders went down). I am a bit of a homer, but I'd say Sutton and Hamilton alone are much better than anything the Ravens have (or have had recently) and if Sanders is healthy and they keep him (big assumptions along with his cap hit) they'll be in the top 20% as a unit. Without Sanders they still will be a solid group that has immense potential.

As for the Flacco move, it's pretty obviously a stop gap measure that will be a 2 year, low risk move to give some time to groom a long time starter (who they get this year or next) and was based off of 2014 and Flacco's solid play under Kubiak as OC (the new offense will be from the Shanny tree as well). The Broncos ability to snipe Munchak away from the Yinzers is going to help immensely in giving Flacco time to throw deep and establishing the run game. 

The Fangio hire was against the grain, but I think a very solid decision. They are going to rely on the D and play smart on offense with some well timed down the field shots. This will be a team that won't play scared, won't make bone headed decisions like under Joseph and I guarantee they will be much improved from the second most penalized group in the league in 2019.

Hopefully, but we all know for every star there are 10 prospects with "an elite catch radius" and "scary jump ball ability" and "polished route running" and every other superlative who were mediocre to awful in the NFL.  Untill they actually do it in the NFL, we are just trading on hope. 

 

[Arancione]

Hopefully, but we all know for every star there are 10 prospects with "an elite catch radius" and "scary jump ball ability" and "polished route running" and every other superlative who were mediocre to awful in the NFL.  Untill they actually do it in the NFL, we are just trading on hope. 

For sure, but Sutton started to showcase his ability last year by actually doing it in the NFL (more so once DT was traded) and Hamilton didn't get much of a chance until Sanders went down. They both have a lot to prove, no doubt, but from what Sutton showed his rookie year, he's going to be legit.

If you haven't checked it out, the thread I linked is a good eval of Sutton's rookie year: https://twitter.com/i/status/1092879365480820738

 

[Ilov80s]

For sure, but Sutton started to showcase his ability last year by actually doing it in the NFL (more so once DT was traded) and Hamilton didn't get much of a chance until Sanders went down. They both have a lot to prove, no doubt, but from what Sutton showed his rookie year, he's going to be legit.

If you haven't checked it out, the thread I linked is a good eval of Sutton's rookie year: https://twitter.com/i/status/1092879365480820738

Thanks, I will check it out. Most of the talk I have heard was how disappointing Sutton was as a rookie and talking heads walking back their initial outlook for him. I really haven't looked close enough. 

 

[[scooter]]

This would be a fine move for a team that has a great defense and a great O-line and just needs a veteran QB to make a Super Bowl run.

But Denver is not that team.

 

[fightingillini]

For sure, but Sutton started to showcase his ability last year by actually doing it in the NFL (more so once DT was traded) and Hamilton didn't get much of a chance until Sanders went down. They both have a lot to prove, no doubt, but from what Sutton showed his rookie year, he's going to be legit.

If you haven't checked it out, the thread I linked is a good eval of Sutton's rookie year: https://twitter.com/i/status/1092879365480820738

I don't think anyone will question Sutton's jump ball skills and catch radius is really good.  The real question is whether Sutton can learn the full NFL route tree and be a complete receiver.  And we don't know that yet, and he didn't improve on that in his rookie year.    So Sutton could be a stud or a complete bust, and it's too early to tell.

But I do think with Flacco we can get more clarity as to Sutton's development, as Keenum was a terrible fit for Sutton.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Exactly. Thanks.

Well then my answer would be "yes". I expect that Keenum's new team will pay him the veteran minimum while the Broncos make up the difference. In other words the offset language will not help the Broncos out that much here.

 

[fightingillini]

My assessment and take away from this is that this move weakened the Broncos. They essentially invested 10% of their salary cap by taking on another mediocre or below average QB. So now they have two guys that won't really help an offense. Essentially, even if they only went with Flacco and jettisoned Keenum, the salary cap charge at the QB spot (including the dead money for Keenum) would be that of a Top 3 QB, and there's no way Flacco sniffs the Top 3 in terms of QB production.

This is essentially my take as well.

Flacco is a mediocre NFL QB, if that.  He is probably good enough to win some games for DEN, but Flacco isn't enough of an upgrade to take DEN to the playoffs in 2019.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

For sure, but Sutton started to showcase his ability last year by actually doing it in the NFL (more so once DT was traded) and Hamilton didn't get much of a chance until Sanders went down. They both have a lot to prove, no doubt, but from what Sutton showed his rookie year, he's going to be legit.

If you haven't checked it out, the thread I linked is a good eval of Sutton's rookie year: https://twitter.com/i/status/1092879365480820738

I mean, I guess being a poor man's Tim Patrick is something, but I'm not sure a great rookie year is what I'd call it. 

 

[fantasycurse42]

Elway is a pretty bipolar GM - years ago, looked like he was brilliant, the last couple though, looks lost. 

 

[Arancione]

I mean, I guess being a poor man's Tim Patrick is something, but I'm not sure a great rookie year is what I'd call it. 

Love the poor man's Tim Patrick line, he was a steal and surprised some folks, think he can play too. 

I don't think Sutton had a great rookie year, but he showcased what he can do against NFL competition. 

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Elway is a pretty bipolar GM - years ago, looked like he was brilliant, the last couple though, looks lost. 

Not sure if fans would be this patient if his name was Elwood Johnson instead of John Elway. Being a great QB doesn't mean you know QBs.