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Just got rejected offering KJ for Norwood... (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Rev
- Start date
Ozymandias
Footballguy
John Mamula
Moderator
Norwood > Jones in a redraft, let alone a dynasty.
jeter23
Footballguy
I agree. I have Norwood in a couple of leagues and would reject an offer of KJ straight up.
Mystery Achiever
Footballguy
is your point that you think kj ( that's kevin jones, correct?) is more valuable than norwood? i think norwood was ahead of jones in rankings before dunn's surgery - cretainly now until it is known what his status will be. and certainly for dynasty i'd expect that.
Do we really need a thread every time a "super fair" trade offer gets rejected?Take it to the AC forum if you want to know how much more to add to get the deal done.Rarely will teams give up promising rookie RB for players currently unable to walk without a limp. Irrational I know.Not to mention I question the existence of your league.You have AP, Lynch, Rudi, SJAX, KJ, Dwill, Addai?*lol*Wait and Palmer at QB.And Holt, AJ, Evans, Roy, Edwards, Mark Clayton, V-Jack.Yeah. Yahoo dynasty leagues are fun! It seems your "deals" rarely get rejected. Now I see the reason for the post, you must have been stupefied.
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Weiner Dog
Footballguy
The market dictates value. Your market says Jones < Norwood.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
I'd reject you as well.
SSOG
Moderator
Not only his market, but he himself thinks that Jones < Norwood, or why else would he have even offered the trade?Obviously you'd rather have Norwood than KJ. Why are you so shocked that someone agrees with you?
Keith Lewis
Footballguy
Same here.
Rev
Footballguy
Good call Brewzers. I enjoy discussing the rise and fall of players like this and refuse to waste time on insecure owners who have absolutely nothing productive to say. Kevin Jones was a top 10 value last year and has has been on track in his recovery process in a Mike Martz offense. I'm amazed that his dynasty value has now dropped below a player like Norwood's, who has yet to demonstrate an ability to carry the load, on a team that is very much in transition right now. I offered the trade because I recognize this shift, but I also admit that in 6 weeks, if Dunn and Kevin Jones both mend well, the situation could be vastly different.
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
I don't blame anyone for not wanting Kevin Jones in a trade, even though I am still very high on him long term. I don't know why you would be surprised by that. Injured players don't carry a whole lot of value.
The thing that isn't being mentioned is how you are trying to trade a player with current low value, due to his injury. Selling low is not a good trading strategy, especially in a dynasty league.
The thing that isn't being mentioned is how you are trying to trade a player with current low value, due to his injury. Selling low is not a good trading strategy, especially in a dynasty league.
Rev
Footballguy
That depends upon whether you believe the player will recover fully or not. If LT gets hurt, and you think he wont recover fully, you'd sell him to an owner who thinks he will, which would actually be selling him high relative to where he would be when he proves he hasn't recovered. KJ maybe has a 50/50 shot of recovering, and so an owner needs to decide which side he wants to bet on and move accordingly, IMO.
Brewzers
Footballguy
Honestly, I would probably reject that trade as well. I know its dynasty and you have to consider the impact beyond 2007. Like it or not Norwood's value has increased that much with the WDunn news combined with a drop in KJ value given the 50/50 chance he makes it off PUP prior to the start of the season. A week ago, this trade might have gone down.Good call Brewzers. I enjoy discussing the rise and fall of players like this and refuse to waste time on insecure owners who have absolutely nothing productive to say. Kevin Jones was a top 10 value last year and has has been on track in his recovery process in a Mike Martz offense. I'm amazed that his dynasty value has now dropped below a player like Norwood's, who has yet to demonstrate an ability to carry the load, on a team that is very much in transition right now. I offered the trade because I recognize this shift, but I also admit that in 6 weeks, if Dunn and Kevin Jones both mend well, the situation could be vastly different.
toxicbees
Footballguy
I was thinking the exact same thing, how does someone end up with a team like that in a 12 team league. Sounds a bit fishy.
Futz
Footballguy
Well let's look at the facts here. You have a Detroit Lion RB who hasn't been able to complete one season as the featured back without a significant injury and is coming off a career threatening surgery. It's possible he may never see the field again. Not to mention, the team brought in an adequate replacement at tailback and a goaline vulture with Duckett to boot.
Norwood showed some fantastic potential last year and is a stud in the making. Alls he needs is the opppurtunity, oh and oops , here it is via a Dunn injury.
How in the world can the values of these two be in the same ball park at the moment? Just another case of someone with a homerism blindfold on.
Norwood showed some fantastic potential last year and is a stud in the making. Alls he needs is the opppurtunity, oh and oops , here it is via a Dunn injury.
How in the world can the values of these two be in the same ball park at the moment? Just another case of someone with a homerism blindfold on.
Good call Brewzers. I enjoy discussing the rise and fall of players like this and refuse to waste time on insecure owners who have absolutely nothing productive to say. Kevin Jones was a top 10 value last year and has has been on track in his recovery process in a Mike Martz offense. I'm amazed that his dynasty value has now dropped below a player like Norwood's, who has yet to demonstrate an ability to carry the load, on a team that is very much in transition right now. I offered the trade because I recognize this shift, but I also admit that in 6 weeks, if Dunn and Kevin Jones both mend well, the situation could be vastly different.
FWIW, I traded 3.06, 3.07, rookie picks for KJ, in a 4-round rookie draft (keeper league) a couple months ago. I fee KJ will be back to his top 10 status in '08,... and beyond. I'll also say that right now is the best time to get KJ, while his value is low,...for now.
Block
Footballguy
Kevin Jones may have been productive fantasy-wise, but he was never a very good back in the real world. His average per carry has always been low; his fantasy value was in the catches he received.Contrast that with Norwood, who gained over 600 yards on under 100 carries. He had an incredible rookie season, and will now be the main man.Norwood is far and away more valuable than Jones at this point in both dynasty and redraft. Don't kid yourself. Anyone who accepts that trade is a fool.
UFFLCommish
Footballguy
Four out of five Footballguys "experts" have Kevin Jones ahead of Jerious Norwood in the recent dynasty rankings.
turkishkamel
Footballguy
he's played for the detroit lions. his line was atrocious last year. watch the kid run, he's a good back. he runs as hard as anyone in the league. you want to question his ability to stay healthy, fine. anyone who has had the (unfortunate) opportunity to watch the lions the last few years will tell you that KJ is a good back. he needs to prove he can stay healthy, talent isnt the issue.Block said:Kevin Jones may have been productive fantasy-wise, but he was never a very good back in the real world. His average per carry has always been low; his fantasy value was in the catches he received.Contrast that with Norwood, who gained over 600 yards on under 100 carries. He had an incredible rookie season, and will now be the main man.Rev said:Brewzers said:Good call Brewzers.
I enjoy discussing the rise and fall of players like this and refuse to waste time on insecure owners who have absolutely nothing productive to say.
Kevin Jones was a top 10 value last year and has has been on track in his recovery process in a Mike Martz offense. I'm amazed that his dynasty value has now dropped below a player like Norwood's, who has yet to demonstrate an ability to carry the load, on a team that is very much in transition right now. I offered the trade because I recognize this shift, but I also admit that in 6 weeks, if Dunn and Kevin Jones both mend well, the situation could be vastly different.
Norwood is far and away more valuable than Jones at this point in both dynasty and redraft. Don't kid yourself. Anyone who accepts that trade is a fool.
This guy is obviously 
Rev
Footballguy
This guy is obviouslyplease post the roster of some of your other league mates.
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Rev
Footballguy
Some guys act as if they've always had KJ behind Norwood, when many expects still haven't rated Norwood above Jones in PPR dynasty.
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
There is only one reason that I would consider putting Norwood ahead of Jones in a dynasty league....if I believed the injury to Jones was a career ending injury. I don't think it is. I think Jones is a much better dynasty prospect than Norwood, especially in a PPR. It's ok to put Norwood higher if you don't think KJ will play at a high level again, but otherwise, I can't see a reason to.
gianmarco
Footballguy
This is interesting. So if you owned Norwood right now in a dynasty league and the KJ owner offered him to you straight up, would you take it? I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm just curious.There is only one reason that I would consider putting Norwood ahead of Jones in a dynasty league....if I believed the injury to Jones was a career ending injury. I don't think it is. I think Jones is a much better dynasty prospect than Norwood, especially in a PPR. It's ok to put Norwood higher if you don't think KJ will play at a high level again, but otherwise, I can't see a reason to.
Block
Footballguy
In my mind, the only reason to put Kevin Jones ahead of Norwood is if you still are basing your rankings on where the player was picked in your original draft, or in the NFL draft. Norwood looked incredible last year, and while KEvin Jones scored well fantasy-wise his actual performance was pedestrian.There is only one reason that I would consider putting Norwood ahead of Jones in a dynasty league....if I believed the injury to Jones was a career ending injury. I don't think it is. I think Jones is a much better dynasty prospect than Norwood, especially in a PPR. It's ok to put Norwood higher if you don't think KJ will play at a high level again, but otherwise, I can't see a reason to.Some guys act as if they've always had KJ behind Norwood, when many expects still haven't rated Norwood above Jones in PPR dynasty.
gianmarco
Footballguy
Are your rankings based on actual performance or fantasy-wise?In my mind, the only reason to put Kevin Jones ahead of Norwood is if you still are basing your rankings on where the player was picked in your original draft, or in the NFL draft. Norwood looked incredible last year, and while KEvin Jones scored well fantasy-wise his actual performance was pedestrian.There is only one reason that I would consider putting Norwood ahead of Jones in a dynasty league....if I believed the injury to Jones was a career ending injury. I don't think it is. I think Jones is a much better dynasty prospect than Norwood, especially in a PPR. It's ok to put Norwood higher if you don't think KJ will play at a high level again, but otherwise, I can't see a reason to.
Holy Schneikes
Footballguy
I wouldn't trade Norwood for Jones at this point either. Frankly, even before the injury, Jones has never really impressed me at the pro level. Constantly dinged up, not a consistent pounder, but doesn't really break a lot of big ones either. He caught a ton of balls last year, but that was more scheme than individual ability. I just don't see him bringing anything "special" to the table. He hasn't been a BAD back, just not as great as he was in college. Now he has a Lisfranc injury and his recovery is very much in the air. At one point we hear he'll be gone half the season, then "there's a good chance he'll be ready opening day", and now recently his agent says he won't be ready any time soon. His team brought in TWO fairly big-name free agents, both young and both former fairly high draft picks (Duckett higher than Jones and Bell slightly lower) in addition to the 3rd round pick they spent on a back last year. Actions speak louder than words, and Detroit is NOT convinced Jones is going to be a franchise back for them.
Norwood on the other hand IN LIMITED ACTION has looked fantastic. He has a golden opportunity. His durability has been suspect, but he's the kind of guy who could come out of nowhere and be a star. He wasn't drafted that highly, but he had a good college career and obviously has talent.
Oh, and by the way - I'd like to pile on and say that either your leahue DOES suck pretty bad or you are luckiest, best trading, most knowledgable owner ever to grace fantasy football. My money's on the former.
Norwood on the other hand IN LIMITED ACTION has looked fantastic. He has a golden opportunity. His durability has been suspect, but he's the kind of guy who could come out of nowhere and be a star. He wasn't drafted that highly, but he had a good college career and obviously has talent.
Oh, and by the way - I'd like to pile on and say that either your leahue DOES suck pretty bad or you are luckiest, best trading, most knowledgable owner ever to grace fantasy football. My money's on the former.
LBH
Footballguy
I love Norwood, but I think the guy who might end up benefiting the most from Dunn missing time or having a diminished role this year is Jason Snelling. If hes already slated for GL duties, I could see them expanding that role into sharing a decent amout of carries with Norwood. Im worried about Kevin Jones this year, and think hes more of a gamble with that injury lingering. He also has adequate depth behind him with Bell well suited for that kind of offense. If I knew KJ was going to be 100%, he would be my choice, but as it stands now I would easily take Norwood.
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
Kevin Jones played very well last season. Stats don't always tell how well someone plays. I think there are a lot of people who did not see many Lion games last year and seem to be looking at his yards per carry, and thinking he was not good at running the ball. The lions offensive line was a disaster last year, and KJ ran very well considering the lack of holes. Backus and Raiola started all 16 games for the Lions last year. The other 3 positions...12 players started MULTIPLE games, and there were games with THREE third string players starting, including some who were not with the Lions until later in the year. And yes, if I owned Norwood, I would trade him for KJ. Of course, understanding value and perception, I would get more in the deal. I think KJ is a much better dynasty prospect. I also think he will come back full strength. I'm not sure when, but I think he will be fine. KJ would have been a first round pick in many drafts before getting hurt. Norwood will never be that good in my opinion. I am one who questions whether or not Norwood can carry a full load, and even though he was impressive, you have to remember he never had to play after carrying a lot. That makes a difference in yards per carry. He only had 99 carries, and that is hardly enough to determine whether or not he can remain effective if he has to carry 250 times. The KJ opinions should come down to whether or not people think his injury will ruin his career. I don't think it will. People forget he was a top 10 fantasy RB before being hurt. If you judge on past performance and talent, there is no comparison.In my mind, the only reason to put Kevin Jones ahead of Norwood is if you still are basing your rankings on where the player was picked in your original draft, or in the NFL draft. Norwood looked incredible last year, and while KEvin Jones scored well fantasy-wise his actual performance was pedestrian.There is only one reason that I would consider putting Norwood ahead of Jones in a dynasty league....if I believed the injury to Jones was a career ending injury. I don't think it is. I think Jones is a much better dynasty prospect than Norwood, especially in a PPR. It's ok to put Norwood higher if you don't think KJ will play at a high level again, but otherwise, I can't see a reason to.Some guys act as if they've always had KJ behind Norwood, when many expects still haven't rated Norwood above Jones in PPR dynasty.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Where in the world are people getting this? Is it just his size that make people think, "Well, he won't be durable," or is it something else? He didn't miss a game in college due to any injury. When he gets tackled, he always pops right back up, never at all looking like something got tweaked. If anything, I'd say his durability appears to be a strong point.
Block
Footballguy
When a coaching staff is deciding how valuable a player is, whether to make him THE guy again after injury, they don't look at fantasy stats, they look at real-world performance.Are your rankings based on actual performance or fantasy-wise?In my mind, the only reason to put Kevin Jones ahead of Norwood is if you still are basing your rankings on where the player was picked in your original draft, or in the NFL draft. Norwood looked incredible last year, and while KEvin Jones scored well fantasy-wise his actual performance was pedestrian.There is only one reason that I would consider putting Norwood ahead of Jones in a dynasty league....if I believed the injury to Jones was a career ending injury. I don't think it is. I think Jones is a much better dynasty prospect than Norwood, especially in a PPR. It's ok to put Norwood higher if you don't think KJ will play at a high level again, but otherwise, I can't see a reason to.
Rev
Footballguy
Alot of attention has been paid to the bad news in Detroit, namely that KJ is still hurting. Yet, what surprises me most in this conversation is that no one (including me!) has mentioned anything about the bad news for Norwood:
Mike Vick is being charged with a felony!
Unless Vick pulls an OJ, this means 2 things:
1. The attention that Vick drew will now be devoted to stopping running backs and closing lanes.
2. A young man named Joseph Harrinton is now the starting QB in Atlanta.
Now if Peyton Manning goes down, I doubt any of us would get too excited about Addai's value. If Carson Palmer goes down, we may raise an eyebrow at Rudi. If Bree's goes down, we'd have to reevaluate Bush's stock. Doesn't the same follow with Norwood?
Does anyone here really think that Norwood will average anywhere 6 yards per carry with Joey at the helm?
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Riffraff
Footballguy
Norwood has more value right now because of Dunn's injury and KJones is injured.
If KJones steps onto the playing field at any point in the season, his value will easily leapfrog Norwood's.
Fantasy owners' value of players flip-flop faster than John Kerry in a Presidential debate.
If KJones steps onto the playing field at any point in the season, his value will easily leapfrog Norwood's.
Fantasy owners' value of players flip-flop faster than John Kerry in a Presidential debate.
Rev
Footballguy
Nice call on John Kerry... though your analysis doesn't include Vick's injury, which is being grossly overlooked in assessing Norwood's value. This could actually be the best time to sell Norwood, because his stock is sky high from his limited work last season and from Dunn's short term injury, while it's apparently been untarnished by his QB situation.
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
Vick was such a dangerous runner that teams had to respect him, and therefore it opened running lanes for the RBs. I think the running game suffers dramatically with Harrington in and Vick gone. They don't have to send a spy in Harrington's direction like they had to for Vick. If Vick even leaned in one direction before handing off, half the defense leaned right with him.
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cobalt_27
Footballguy
I think this was just discussed a few posts above. Any benefit this had to the RBs is mitigated by the fact that there won't be an extra spy lining up near the line, anymore. I'm still trying to understand this logic that Vick opened up running lanes...if anything, they'll open up with him gone.This has much more to do with good Norwood and the O-line are.
Anthony Borbely
Footballguy
The spy will still be at the line....he just doesn't have to watch where the QB goes. I don't see any way the RBs can be better with Vick gone. The running lanes are going to be a lot smaller now.
Rev
Footballguy
Bump from last weeks news about KJ's progress:
Link
Jones progressing
Kevin Jones did a successful workout of about 30 minutes in Thursday's late afternoon practice that included forward, backward and side-to-side cuts to test his recuperating left foot.
Jones has been out since the Dec. 10 loss to Minnesota, a game in which dislocated and broke the foot, creating speculation that it could be a career-ending injury.
One of the drills he participated in involved short runs while being strapped to a harness pulled by another person. Jones seemed to have no problem with the resistance.
Bailey, who overcame a knee injury his second season, said word is going around the team that Jones is ahead of schedule That isn't a surprise because of the effort and desire Jones shows everyday, Bailey said.
"It's one of those things where you can't be afraid to go hard," said Bailey of Jones' injury. "You have to fight with your mind and body, which can often tell you something is wrong."
KJ and Dunn are both healing well. Vick's heading upstream. Lots of changes in this picture.
Link
Jones progressing
Kevin Jones did a successful workout of about 30 minutes in Thursday's late afternoon practice that included forward, backward and side-to-side cuts to test his recuperating left foot.
Jones has been out since the Dec. 10 loss to Minnesota, a game in which dislocated and broke the foot, creating speculation that it could be a career-ending injury.
One of the drills he participated in involved short runs while being strapped to a harness pulled by another person. Jones seemed to have no problem with the resistance.
Bailey, who overcame a knee injury his second season, said word is going around the team that Jones is ahead of schedule That isn't a surprise because of the effort and desire Jones shows everyday, Bailey said.
"It's one of those things where you can't be afraid to go hard," said Bailey of Jones' injury. "You have to fight with your mind and body, which can often tell you something is wrong."
KJ and Dunn are both healing well. Vick's heading upstream. Lots of changes in this picture.
Michael Fox Fan
Footballguy
Huh. You're spending a lot of time trying to convince us that KJ is more attractive than Norwood. Why are you bothering? People have given you their opinions already - why not spend some time talking to the other owner?Bump from last weeks news about KJ's progress:
Link
Jones progressing
Kevin Jones did a successful workout of about 30 minutes in Thursday's late afternoon practice that included forward, backward and side-to-side cuts to test his recuperating left foot.
Jones has been out since the Dec. 10 loss to Minnesota, a game in which dislocated and broke the foot, creating speculation that it could be a career-ending injury.
One of the drills he participated in involved short runs while being strapped to a harness pulled by another person. Jones seemed to have no problem with the resistance.
Bailey, who overcame a knee injury his second season, said word is going around the team that Jones is ahead of schedule That isn't a surprise because of the effort and desire Jones shows everyday, Bailey said.
"It's one of those things where you can't be afraid to go hard," said Bailey of Jones' injury. "You have to fight with your mind and body, which can often tell you something is wrong."
KJ and Dunn are both healing well. Vick's heading upstream. Lots of changes in this picture.
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