Kamala Harris' border crisis. Biden put her in charge. (1 Viewer)

[The Commish]

Wh3ay studies do you have at tour disposal that say the quantity of people in this country is a problem? Ive never heard that argument before...especially in the day and age where the US is plateauing in quantity.

well people have said there is a population problem. Not me, but its been said.

lets say 2 million come here every year illegally ......... do you think they're wealthy? what % you think get good paying jobs? realistically we're adding millions over a few years period to the numbers of poor people in the USA and they're illegal, its not like they're going to pursue the American dream. No, they'll be shackled to low paying jobs under the radar of US Labor laws, exploited by their employers (those who work)

you think that's a good solid plan ?

but aside from that, they are illegally here

illegal - meaning they're not supposed to be here and it impacts US citizens in many many ways. It probably doesn't impact you any because you don't have to deal with them, am I right ?

Not even close. I live in Florida. You take away the 40-50K "illegals" living here and the AG industry crumbles, so yes, they impact me in a significant way.

To the rest, I'll just categorize it as a "feeling" kind of position you have with no real data or meaningful study to back it up....thanks.

What would the ramifications be for FL and the US if desantis walled off the state and tossed out the illegals?

Most, if not all the sugar cane industry would go belly up and a BUNCH of people would have to do their own landscaping/grass cutting as well as a bunch of crops rotting on the vines/bushes/trees in the fields. I know a good many farmers in south florida and they pay minimum wage, but no benefits at all.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Just want to point out that proposing we hire more attorneys, judges, and build more housing is not actually proposing a solution.

Sure it is. It's just not one you agree with evidently.

Nope. It doesn't solve the stream of people coming over our border. It actually makes it worse.

But I guess I could concede that is the democrat solution.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Just want to point out that proposing we hire more attorneys, judges, and build more housing is not actually proposing a solution.

Sure it is. It's just not one you agree with evidently.

Nope. It doesn't solve the stream of people coming over our border. It actually makes it worse.

But I guess I could concede that is the democrat solution.

I posted how I think it does address that issue as well, so we disagree, which is cool.
like with FW- the flow across isn't the only issue with the border and illegals. Again, cool if that's you main or only focus.


Not sure about that last part, as I haven't even seen a plan from the dems lately.

 

[Boston]

Fentanyl Overdoses Have Increased Under Biden: 'Not the American Way'

townhall.com

"In 2020, we saw a very reduced amount of people coming into this country," Lamb said, adding, "as a matter of fact, I'm not even on the border. I'm 50 miles off the border, and I was having as many apprehensions as people on the border were having. That all changed in 2021, and you can put the pieces of the puzzle together, but overnight, the communication lines stopped and the flow of humans and drugs into this country started going out of control. The train was off the tracks."

Lamb said that if he were to send 20 officers out every day, there would be 20 plus human smuggling traffic stops every day, adding that this is "not the American way."

According to data from the National Institute on Drug Abuse, the number of overdoses rose by nearly 14,000 from 2021 to 2022, showing no signs of slowing down so long as Biden is still in office.

 

[The Commish]

We've had almost 90 million people immigrate into this country since the 1780s. It wasn't until the 1950s that it began being considered a "problem". Ironically enough that's when we stopped funding the mechanisms in place to enforce our rules and the hacking away of our immigrant system has been on the downturn ever since, but yeah, not fixing the problem and focusing on boogeymen instead will certainly get it done...unreal

 

[KarmaPolice]

Easy for you to say sitting in your ivory tower with your picket fences and walls with no illegals trashing your backyard, commish!!

 

[Stealthycat]

Maybe read closer?

Pretty sure there is a post or two where I talk about how easy the system is to exploit now. I also have never said let them all in, and today I'm pretty sure there is a post where I said we should have reasonable and honest expectations of the number we let in.

No, I don't have specific number in mind, sorry. I think we can "handle" more than you want, because they are a big driver of the economy for us.

I didn't think you'd have any specific numbers. Mine is 0, no illegally here people.

the last line is the truth - like Pelosi said, ship them all to Florida, we need them picking our crops !! its a type of modern day slavery .... and which party is supporting it? truth is there

 

[Stealthycat]

I haven't had any of these alleged problems. Nor has my BIL who works with them daily. I don't have a fence around my yard and I don't have a gate to my neighborhood. Like I said before, we have roughly 40-50K of them here and the state and our own GOVERNOR doesn't seem to think they are a problem or he'd be using his millions allocated to "fighting illegals" to get them removed from the state instead of pulling stunts and sending people from Texas to Martha's Vineyard

Ironically enough though, I DO have this problem with my MAGA neighbor regarding the bold As much as it's an actual "problem"....I really don't care.

if you don't have illegals running through your property, camping there, leaving their trash, using the bathroom in it, meeting up with human traffickers ....... then you have no idea what its like to live along the southern border where stuff like that is daily occurences

if all that did happen in your back yard, I think you'd see things differently

if someone you knew was murdered by an illegal, lost their jobs to illegals, got in a hit and run and an illegal who didn't have insurance caused it .... even simpler things like food bank ran out of food and you as a citizen can't get food because it was given to illegals, or 1/2 the kids in your class don't speak English because they came here illegally but are afforded an education .... do you know how hard it is to teach kids who don't speak good English? I kinda know, my GF teaches them every day. The list can go on and on .... but dang it, we need these people to pick cabbage and strawberries, right ?

 

[Stealthycat]

We've had almost 90 million people immigrate into this country since the 1780s. It wasn't until the 1950s that it began being considered a "problem". Ironically enough that's when we stopped funding the mechanisms in place to enforce our rules and the hacking away of our immigrant system has been on the downturn ever since, but yeah, not fixing the problem and focusing on boogeymen instead will certainly get it done...unreal

you're going to use something 150 years ago to justify today? seriously ?

totally different times, system and such .... c'mon man

 

[KarmaPolice]

Not the gotcha you think it is, SC. We aren't even talking the same language on this. Your goal of 0 illegals is not achievable because you seem to consider( judging by your posts) anybody coming from the south illegal, so even after your walls go up, there are still tons coming through the ports and claiming asylum, which as we agree is exploitable, is a legit means of entry into our country.

When I say I don't have a number for you, I mean I don't have a number of what the "flow" of immigrants could be in a year. That could fluctuate and that should at least be part of the calculation. Nice try attempting to frame it yet again as though I want millions of illegals in the country.

We agree that the goal should be 0. You seem to want to achieve that by putting up a big wall and telling them they aren't welcome. That goes against what I believe a foundation of our county is and what made us great. Your wall also does 0 to address the ones already here, and does nothing to address a currently broken and exploited system.

I want to achieve that goal with the ability tool process them ASAP, so when they enter they've had their day in court and we know they are legit. I want more infrastructure to get to the backlog and weeding through ones currently here. Additionally I am not against tech and manpower, especially in the areas where people are trying to cross by other means.

I guess we agree to disagree on which of those two is more likely to get closer to that goal of 0.

 

[The Commish]

We've had almost 90 million people immigrate into this country since the 1780s. It wasn't until the 1950s that it began being considered a "problem". Ironically enough that's when we stopped funding the mechanisms in place to enforce our rules and the hacking away of our immigrant system has been on the downturn ever since, but yeah, not fixing the problem and focusing on boogeymen instead will certainly get it done...unreal

you're going to use something 150 years ago to justify today? seriously ?

totally different times, system and such .... c'mon man

You really dont read what others are actually saying.

My using the fact, that through our history, we have processed millions and millions of immigrants and it was never a problem until we started cutting resources and funding used to process those people

 

[The Commish]

I haven't had any of these alleged problems. Nor has my BIL who works with them daily. I don't have a fence around my yard and I don't have a gate to my neighborhood. Like I said before, we have roughly 40-50K of them here and the state and our own GOVERNOR doesn't seem to think they are a problem or he'd be using his millions allocated to "fighting illegals" to get them removed from the state instead of pulling stunts and sending people from Texas to Martha's Vineyard

Ironically enough though, I DO have this problem with my MAGA neighbor regarding the bold As much as it's an actual "problem"....I really don't care.

if you don't have illegals running through your property, camping there, leaving their trash, using the bathroom in it, meeting up with human traffickers ....... then you have no idea what its like to live along the southern border where stuff like that is daily occurences

if all that did happen in your back yard, I think you'd see things differently

if someone you knew was murdered by an illegal, lost their jobs to illegals, got in a hit and run and an illegal who didn't have insurance caused it .... even simpler things like food bank ran out of food and you as a citizen can't get food because it was given to illegals, or 1/2 the kids in your class don't speak English because they came here illegally but are afforded an education .... do you know how hard it is to teach kids who don't speak good English? I kinda know, my GF teaches them every day. The list can go on and on .... but dang it, we need these people to pick cabbage and strawberries, right ?

Shove....shove......MOVE!!!!!!! Its what you do when your ******** arguments backfire....every single time.

And i told you, i have a probelm with my neighbor doing this sort of thing, yet I manage to act like an adult and dont act in any shape or form the way you say I would. Weird.

 

[Summer Wheat]

Maybe read closer?

Pretty sure there is a post or two where I talk about how easy the system is to exploit now. I also have never said let them all in, and today I'm pretty sure there is a post where I said we should have reasonable and honest expectations of the number we let in.

No, I don't have specific number in mind, sorry. I think we can "handle" more than you want, because they are a big driver of the economy for us.

I didn't think you'd have any specific numbers. Mine is 0, no illegally here people.

the last line is the truth - like Pelosi said, ship them all to Florida, we need them picking our crops !! its a type of modern day slavery .... and which party is supporting it? truth is there

Did Pelosi really say that?

 

[The Commish]

Easy for you to say sitting in your ivory tower with your picket fences and walls with no illegals trashing your backyard, commish!!

Guess it doesnt matter that the "legals" do it.

Kinda telling on himself a bit eh?

 

[parasaurolophus]

We've had almost 90 million people immigrate into this country since the 1780s. It wasn't until the 1950s that it began being considered a "problem". Ironically enough that's when we stopped funding the mechanisms in place to enforce our rules and the hacking away of our immigrant system has been on the downturn ever since, but yeah, not fixing the problem and focusing on boogeymen instead will certainly get it done...unreal

It's almost like our country has limits on the number of people it can sustain.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Maybe read closer?

Pretty sure there is a post or two where I talk about how easy the system is to exploit now. I also have never said let them all in, and today I'm pretty sure there is a post where I said we should have reasonable and honest expectations of the number we let in.

No, I don't have specific number in mind, sorry. I think we can "handle" more than you want, because they are a big driver of the economy for us.

I didn't think you'd have any specific numbers. Mine is 0, no illegally here people.

the last line is the truth - like Pelosi said, ship them all to Florida, we need them picking our crops !! its a type of modern day slavery .... and which party is supporting it? truth is there

Did Pelosi really say that?

Did she say those exact words? No.

Did she say this...

Why are you shipping these immigrants up North? We need them to pick the crops down here.


Yes. Yes she did.

 

[The Commish]

We've had almost 90 million people immigrate into this country since the 1780s. It wasn't until the 1950s that it began being considered a "problem". Ironically enough that's when we stopped funding the mechanisms in place to enforce our rules and the hacking away of our immigrant system has been on the downturn ever since, but yeah, not fixing the problem and focusing on boogeymen instead will certainly get it done...unreal

It's almost like our country has limits on the number of people it can sustain.

I'm open to studies presenting evidence that our country has too many people.

Until then, Im going with the obvious that is CLEARLY causing problems which is this "starve the process of funding" approach thats been in place my whole life.

 

[Sand]

We've had almost 90 million people immigrate into this country since the 1780s. It wasn't until the 1950s that it began being considered a "problem". Ironically enough that's when we stopped funding the mechanisms in place to enforce our rules and the hacking away of our immigrant system has been on the downturn ever since, but yeah, not fixing the problem and focusing on boogeymen instead will certainly get it done...unreal

It was about that time that our welfare state started to stretch it's legs.

 

[Sand]

We've had almost 90 million people immigrate into this country since the 1780s. It wasn't until the 1950s that it began being considered a "problem". Ironically enough that's when we stopped funding the mechanisms in place to enforce our rules and the hacking away of our immigrant system has been on the downturn ever since, but yeah, not fixing the problem and focusing on boogeymen instead will certainly get it done...unreal

It's almost like our country has limits on the number of people it can sustain.

I'm open to studies presenting evidence that our country has too many people.

Until then, Im going with the obvious that is CLEARLY causing problems which is this "starve the process of funding" approach thats been in place my whole life.

I'm open to studies that show we don't have enough low to no skilled workers.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Just reread that. Love SC's implication that only one party supports that system. I'm sure its only Democrats who are exploiting these people and profiting off of them.

I am also sure no GOP politicians are getting funds and benefits from these same businesses who are profiting off them while they are puffing out their chests pretending to be tough on illegal immigration.

 

[The Commish]

We've had almost 90 million people immigrate into this country since the 1780s. It wasn't until the 1950s that it began being considered a "problem". Ironically enough that's when we stopped funding the mechanisms in place to enforce our rules and the hacking away of our immigrant system has been on the downturn ever since, but yeah, not fixing the problem and focusing on boogeymen instead will certainly get it done...unreal

It's almost like our country has limits on the number of people it can sustain.

I'm open to studies presenting evidence that our country has too many people.

Until then, Im going with the obvious that is CLEARLY causing problems which is this "starve the process of funding" approach thats been in place my whole life.

I'm open to studies that show we don't have enough low to no skilled workers.

Youll have to ask those making that claim.

 

[The Commish]

Just reread that. Love SC's implication that only one party supports that system. I'm sure its only Democrats who are exploiting these people and profiting off of them.

I am also sure no GOP politicians are getting funds and benefits from these same businesses who are profiting off them while they are puffing out their chests pretending to be tough on illegal immigration.

Yeah...again, the entire AG industry in Florida is run off the backs of these people. Theres a reason Ronnie D isnt using his millions to get the 40-50K "illegals" out of this state

 

[KarmaPolice]

We've had almost 90 million people immigrate into this country since the 1780s. It wasn't until the 1950s that it began being considered a "problem". Ironically enough that's when we stopped funding the mechanisms in place to enforce our rules and the hacking away of our immigrant system has been on the downturn ever since, but yeah, not fixing the problem and focusing on boogeymen instead will certainly get it done...unreal

It's almost like our country has limits on the number of people it can sustain.

I'm open to studies presenting evidence that our country has too many people.

Until then, Im going with the obvious that is CLEARLY causing problems which is this "starve the process of funding" approach thats been in place my whole life.

I'm open to studies that show we don't have enough low to no skilled workers.

We could have enough, but do we have enough willing to do the work? Anecdotally, I rarely go into a place now that doesn't have "now hiring" all over. I would like to these sets of studies too.

Is the country willing to pay a bunch more for goods? Feels like a similar group of people bitching the most in the inflation thread are ones advocating for shutting down the flow and kicking all the illegals out too. Wouldn't that have similar or worse consequences to our economy?

 

[parasaurolophus]

We've had almost 90 million people immigrate into this country since the 1780s. It wasn't until the 1950s that it began being considered a "problem". Ironically enough that's when we stopped funding the mechanisms in place to enforce our rules and the hacking away of our immigrant system has been on the downturn ever since, but yeah, not fixing the problem and focusing on boogeymen instead will certainly get it done...unreal

It's almost like our country has limits on the number of people it can sustain.

I'm open to studies presenting evidence that our country has too many people.

Until then, Im going with the obvious that is CLEARLY causing problems which is this "starve the process of funding" approach thats been in place my whole life.

I'm open to studies that show we don't have enough low to no skilled workers.

We could have enough, but do we have enough willing to do the work? Anecdotally, I rarely go into a place now that doesn't have "now hiring" all over. I would like to these sets of studies too.

Is the country willing to pay a bunch more for goods? Feels like a similar group of people bitching the most in the inflation thread are ones advocating for shutting down the flow and kicking all the illegals out too. Wouldn't that have similar or worse consequences to our economy?

We already are paying a bunch more for goods.

It is very American to say we need illegals to do all the work Americans don't want to do.

I have news for you. The work Americans don't want to do is pretty much becoming all of it.

So is our plan to bring in more people to force them to serve us?

That sounds...um...like something.

 

[KarmaPolice]

We've had almost 90 million people immigrate into this country since the 1780s. It wasn't until the 1950s that it began being considered a "problem". Ironically enough that's when we stopped funding the mechanisms in place to enforce our rules and the hacking away of our immigrant system has been on the downturn ever since, but yeah, not fixing the problem and focusing on boogeymen instead will certainly get it done...unreal

It's almost like our country has limits on the number of people it can sustain.

I'm open to studies presenting evidence that our country has too many people.

Until then, Im going with the obvious that is CLEARLY causing problems which is this "starve the process of funding" approach thats been in place my whole life.

I'm open to studies that show we don't have enough low to no skilled workers.

We could have enough, but do we have enough willing to do the work? Anecdotally, I rarely go into a place now that doesn't have "now hiring" all over. I would like to these sets of studies too.

Is the country willing to pay a bunch more for goods? Feels like a similar group of people bitching the most in the inflation thread are ones advocating for shutting down the flow and kicking all the illegals out too. Wouldn't that have similar or worse consequences to our economy?

We already are paying a bunch more for goods.

It is very American to say we need illegals to do all the work Americans don't want to do.

I have news for you. The work Americans don't want to do is pretty much becoming all of it.

So is our plan to bring in more people to force them to serve us?

That sounds...um...like something.

Have I ever said anything about forcing? Or wanting more illegals?

We need people do do these jobs we are taking about, that's not debatable. Two choices:

We do it all ourselves
We need immigrants to supplement the workforce.

Pretty sure we need #2, so my thoughts above process them quickly, so they can do work they came here to do. Once they are allowed in they should be treated to the same wages.

No need for forcing, slave wages, etc.

I want fast, easy legal immigration. I don't believe the powers that be do, because the way it is now is huge $$$ for them.

 

[Stealthycat]

You really dont read what others are actually saying.

My using the fact, that through our history, we have processed millions and millions of immigrants and it was never a problem until we started cutting resources and funding used to process those people

is that how it happened 150 years ago ?

people came here illegally asking for "asylum" and they were given court dates and judges/lawyers figured it out and then the ones not accepted were deported ?

"fact" ???? maybe you'd like indentured servants again? as you can tell, what happened 150 years ago is nothing like what happens today. Can you admit you're wrong ?

History of immigration to the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Stealthycat]

Have I ever said anything about forcing? Or wanting more illegals?

We need people do do these jobs we are taking about, that's not debatable. Two choices:

We do it all ourselves
We need immigrants to supplement the workforce.

Pretty sure we need #2, so my thoughts above process them quickly, so they can do work they came here to do. Once they are allowed in they should be treated to the same wages.

No need for forcing, slave wages, etc.

I want fast, easy legal immigration. I don't believe the powers that be do, because the way it is now is huge $$$ for them.

you have not used these words but I am because they best fit what's happening as I see it

as you said above - you see the USA as needing cheap, illegal work force that is not under US labor laws, that keeps them unskilled, uneducated and underpaid without employee benefits etc etc


you cannot have fast, legal immigration - #1 the Govt doesn't work that way ever and #2, why go through that system when you can just walk in ??

you are right, its the $$$$$$$$ ride the backs of all those illegals, make the bling

 

[The Commish]

You really dont read what others are actually saying.

My using the fact, that through our history, we have processed millions and millions of immigrants and it was never a problem until we started cutting resources and funding used to process those people

is that how it happened 150 years ago ?

people came here illegally asking for "asylum" and they were given court dates and judges/lawyers figured it out and then the ones not accepted were deported ?

"fact" ???? maybe you'd like indentured servants again? as you can tell, what happened 150 years ago is nothing like what happens today. Can you admit you're wrong ?

History of immigration to the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No idea what youre babbling about, but coming here requesting asylum has NEVER been illegal. That you continue with these ******** arguments just tells me you have no interest in understanding our history or how our system works. Youre fine settling for the nonsensical soundbytes fed you by the media outlets in this country.
And stop selectively editing my ####### posts. If you cant do that, then stop responding to me. Im not going to ever see the world the way you do. What I let influence me is just different than what you settle for.

 

[Stealthycat]

Just reread that. Love SC's implication that only one party supports that system. I'm sure its only Democrats who are exploiting these people and profiting off of them.

I am also sure no GOP politicians are getting funds and benefits from these same businesses who are profiting off them while they are puffing out their chests pretending to be tough on illegal immigration.

well, it is the GOP fighting hard to seal the border isn't it ? and its the Democrats fighting hard to allow millions to flow across illegally

the truth is right there



this is about a slave type labor force AND voting too - get 5 million illegals into one area that's blue and redistricting happens and voila!! better Democrat numbers ..... we all know this, its just not talked about. I've said it a thousand times, if all these illegals were Republican/conservative voters, the Democrats would seal the border in 3 months guaranteed. No WAY would they allow millions of potential GOP voters in

 

[FairWarning]

Is it a safe assumption that those illegals working for big AG aren't making minimum wage?

I bet they are actually. A lot of competition for their services.

 

[The Commish]

Is it a safe assumption that those illegals working for big AG aren't making minimum wage?

I bet they are actually. A lot of competition for their services.

Yup...no shortage of jobs "legals" dont want to do but need to be done.

 

[Sand]

this is about a slave type labor force AND voting too - get 5 million illegals into one area that's blue and redistricting happens and voila!! better Democrat numbers ..... we all know this, its just not talked about. I've said it a thousand times, if all these illegals were Republican/conservative voters, the Democrats would seal the border in 3 months guaranteed. No WAY would they allow millions of potential GOP voters in

Combine with this the "errors" in the census that all happened to favor the blue team and it's obvious that there is a multi-pronged approach to shifting the playing field here.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Just reread that. Love SC's implication that only one party supports that system. I'm sure its only Democrats who are exploiting these people and profiting off of them.

I am also sure no GOP politicians are getting funds and benefits from these same businesses who are profiting off them while they are puffing out their chests pretending to be tough on illegal immigration.

well, it is the GOP fighting hard to seal the border isn't it ? and its the Democrats fighting hard to allow millions to flow across illegally

the truth is right there



this is about a slave type labor force AND voting too - get 5 million illegals into one area that's blue and redistricting happens and voila!! better Democrat numbers ..... we all know this, its just not talked about. I've said it a thousand times, if all these illegals were Republican/conservative voters, the Democrats would seal the border in 3 months guaranteed. No WAY would they allow millions of potential GOP voters in

1. You buy into the political posturing, not me. Yes, that is what is going on- Rs will puff out their chests and yell about the border. Yes, we are in a current game of one side trying to slow the flow one opens it up. Nothing is done for a long term fix.

2. I don't like how the Ds are handling things either currently and have said so many times. Is there a reason you and others keep posting as though i am cheering them on or something?

3. There's been a few articles posted in these threads about how the vote is turning turning or has turned with these voters too. Imagine that- they might also vote with their wallets too and are frustrated with the economy. At the very least it's close, and it's pretty ignorant to post as though they all vote the same. Even if not, I don't give two ****s how they vote, as that shouldn't be part of the decision making. You could be right, but it's also funny if you don't think the opposite is true- if they voted 80% R, do you truly think the GOP would want to seal the border?

4. I agree a good portion is about the "slave labor" of it, and have said as much. Both parties profit huuuge from this situation. Again, I've said as much repeatedly which is why as much as we debate thus my belief is that we get more of the same of the last several years.

 

[Stealthycat]

1. You buy into the political posturing, not me. Yes, that is what is going on- Rs will puff out their chests and yell about the border. Yes, we are in a current game of one side trying to slow the flow one opens it up. Nothing is done for a long term fix.

If Democrats would have allowed it, Trump WOULD have built a more secure border with walls/barriers. We both know that

2. I don't like how the Ds are handling things either currently and have said so many times. Is there a reason you and others keep posting as though i am cheering them on or something?

Not you in particularly, I apologize if it seemed I single you out - its like the point 1. you made though ... Democrats ARE responsible, they DO fight as hard as they can to thwart any GOP attempts to have more secure borders.

3. There's been a few articles posted in these threads about how the vote is turning turning or has turned with these voters too. Imagine that- they might also vote with their wallets too and are frustrated with the economy. At the very least it's close, and it's pretty ignorant to post as though they all vote the same. Even if not, I don't give two ****s how they vote, as that shouldn't be part of the decision making. You could be right, but it's also funny if you don't think the opposite is true- if they voted 80% R, do you truly think the GOP would want to seal the border?

how can they vote - they're illegal and not citizens ?

4. I agree a good portion is about the "slave labor" of it, and have said as much. Both parties profit huuuge from this situation. Again, I've said as much repeatedly which is why as much as we debate thus my belief is that we get more of the same of the last several years.

ok - let me ask you ... would Trump's administration built our southern border control/security up more if Democrats didn't fight him every day? Have you seen Biden build it up or tear it down ?

one party is way more responsible here and its not the GOP the past 6 years at least

 

[KarmaPolice]

Is it a safe assumption that those illegals working for big AG aren't making minimum wage?

I bet they are actually. A lot of competition for their services.

Yup...no shortage of jobs "legals" dont want to do but need to be done.

So around there would you guess it's mostly minimum wage stuff or lower paying stuff? If it's a bit of both, what industries pay minimum?

 

[stlrams]

Is it a safe assumption that those illegals working for big AG aren't making minimum wage?

I bet they are actually. A lot of competition for their services.

Yup...no shortage of jobs "legals" dont want to do but need to be done.

So around there would you guess it's mostly minimum wage stuff or lower paying stuff? If it's a bit of both, what industries pay minimum?

We would hire them but preschool requirements include criminal background checks which they don’t want as I believe most are in hiding.

 

[The Dude]

If Democrats would have allowed it, Trump WOULD have built a more secure border with walls/barriers. We both know t

Trumps wall was a colossal waste of time and money.

 

[FairWarning]

Is it a safe assumption that those illegals working for big AG aren't making minimum wage?

I bet they are actually. A lot of competition for their services.

Yup...no shortage of jobs "legals" dont want to do but need to be done.

So around there would you guess it's mostly minimum wage stuff or lower paying stuff? If it's a bit of both, what industries pay minimum?

Some lower level smaller manufacturing, parts sorting, hospitality industries (maids). they would be jobs geared more to women, trades are hurting right now and can’t afford to low-ball too much. Not saying they would make $30/hour roofing, but probably make $20/hour cash pretty easy. This also applies to drywallers, painters, etc.

 

[KarmaPolice]

1. You buy into the political posturing, not me. Yes, that is what is going on- Rs will puff out their chests and yell about the border. Yes, we are in a current game of one side trying to slow the flow one opens it up. Nothing is done for a long term fix.

If Democrats would have allowed it, Trump WOULD have built a more secure border with walls/barriers. We both know that

2. I don't like how the Ds are handling things either currently and have said so many times. Is there a reason you and others keep posting as though i am cheering them on or something?

Not you in particularly, I apologize if it seemed I single you out - its like the point 1. you made though ... Democrats ARE responsible, they DO fight as hard as they can to thwart any GOP attempts to have more secure borders.

3. There's been a few articles posted in these threads about how the vote is turning turning or has turned with these voters too. Imagine that- they might also vote with their wallets too and are frustrated with the economy. At the very least it's close, and it's pretty ignorant to post as though they all vote the same. Even if not, I don't give two ****s how they vote, as that shouldn't be part of the decision making. You could be right, but it's also funny if you don't think the opposite is true- if they voted 80% R, do you truly think the GOP would want to seal the border?

how can they vote - they're illegal and not citizens ?

4. I agree a good portion is about the "slave labor" of it, and have said as much. Both parties profit huuuge from this situation. Again, I've said as much repeatedly which is why as much as we debate thus my belief is that we get more of the same of the last several years.

ok - let me ask you ... would Trump's administration built our southern border control/security up more if Democrats didn't fight him every day? Have you seen Biden build it up or tear it down ?

one party is way more responsible here and its not the GOP the past 6 years at least

Reading your responses - 1. thank you for the bolded. Not much drives me crazy as quickly as that.

I think I can answer a couple of your questions this way: I don't believe either side wants a long term slow of the flow of immigrants, so that is a core departure in our thinking when we are talking about this issue - you believe the GOP when they say they want to stop it. The big bucks made is bipartisan, so my belief is this is more of a political game that ebbs and flows a little, but ultimately is what they want, again - because of $. Yes, I agree with you that the Ds role in this has become to position themselves as pro-immigration (increase the flow) and the Rs are currently presenting themselves as wanting to be tough on the border (decrease flow). BUT, because of the money involved (which this part we seem to agree on), I don't think a slow of flow like Trump was after would be "allowed" long term - ie, the dems would block it from starting, or the next D president would stop production of the wall - something. Spinning the wheels like we are, and playing this game so nothing really happens to the overall flow of immigrants long term. I am just making numbers up here, but let's say overall the powers that be are OK with an average of 1M immigrants a year, they will play this game and let the GOP slow the flow to 300K a year for a little, but then it's going to be 2M for a bit when the Ds get in control. Again, just making up numbers to show my general thinking, and again - my belief is that the GOP doesn't truly want it at that 300K level as a long term solution because they are going to lose a ton of profits. Everybody needs to get paid, and each of those feeds different industries that feed off these immigrants - ie big AG benifits from more workers, and the PIC is tied to deportations and other things, so they benefit when we clamp down on the immigrants. Everybody pockets getting lined, no long term solutions.

IMO a couple things point to this being the case for me:

1. Nothing is done to speed up these applications clear the backlog. There is a benefit to have people here illegal for long stretches - industries can pay them less or don't have to pay benefits, industries I mention profit when they are arrested or deported as well. This is why the "game" is just to speed up and slow the flow of immigrants, but nothing is ever done to speed up the process to focus on legal immigration.

2. Nothing is ever done or seriously suggested to punish the practice of hiring these people on a large scale. IMO the best way to stop having so many illegals and others coming here would be to crack down severely on businesses hiring them - no jobs and opportunity, and the desire to come here largely goes away. This is why commish and I have said politicians like DeSantis are fine pointing the finger at the D states and sending people to NYC and MV, but he would probably never try to get rid of the ones in his state working the industries.


As to the voting part, what I have in mind is the immigrant vote from people who crossed, became citizens and then vote. I think when they talk about the Ds wanting these votes, they are basically just referring to the vote from the Mexican, Central American, and South American demographics. What they are suggesting is the Ds are buying their votes by letting them in - they are just so grateful for that they will largely vote D. It's being shown that is either not the case as much or at least that tide is changing. They vote with their wallet and on other topics just like everybody else. I am not suggesting that there are large numbers of illegal immigrants trying to or able to vote.

 

[The Commish]

Is it a safe assumption that those illegals working for big AG aren't making minimum wage?

I bet they are actually. A lot of competition for their services.

Yup...no shortage of jobs "legals" dont want to do but need to be done.

So around there would you guess it's mostly minimum wage stuff or lower paying stuff? If it's a bit of both, what industries pay minimum?

Think "part time worker" working full time. So the pay is on the up and up, but they aren't provided benefits....they can't be and there is little done to help them navigate a new country. They rely on each other for most/all things as they are learning the ways of the country. The pay isn't the issue. The isolation is more difficult to overcome.

 

[FairWarning]

Is it a safe assumption that those illegals working for big AG aren't making minimum wage?

I bet they are actually. A lot of competition for their services.

Yup...no shortage of jobs "legals" dont want to do but need to be done.

So around there would you guess it's mostly minimum wage stuff or lower paying stuff? If it's a bit of both, what industries pay minimum?

Think "part time worker" working full time. So the pay is on the up and up, but they aren't provided benefits....they can't be and there is little done to help them navigate a new country. They rely on each other for most/all things as they are learning the ways of the country. The pay isn't the issue. The isolation is more difficult to overcome.

A lot of them send money back to their families also. I agree with you. Some of these independent tradesmen just bounce around and go where the work is for cash.

 

[The Commish]

Is it a safe assumption that those illegals working for big AG aren't making minimum wage?

I bet they are actually. A lot of competition for their services.

Yup...no shortage of jobs "legals" dont want to do but need to be done.

So around there would you guess it's mostly minimum wage stuff or lower paying stuff? If it's a bit of both, what industries pay minimum?

Think "part time worker" working full time. So the pay is on the up and up, but they aren't provided benefits....they can't be and there is little done to help them navigate a new country. They rely on each other for most/all things as they are learning the ways of the country. The pay isn't the issue. The isolation is more difficult to overcome.

A lot of them send money back to their families also. I agree with you. Some of these independent tradesmen just bounce around and go where the work is for cash.

MOST send money back to their families and MOST are here to do just that. What many are fed by our media is simply untrue or not applicable to a MAJORITY of those here "illegally".....both on the "pro" side and the "anti" side. Wish people would get into the community and away from media and see things through their own eyes.

 

[FairWarning]

We've had almost 90 million people immigrate into this country since the 1780s. It wasn't until the 1950s that it began being considered a "problem". Ironically enough that's when we stopped funding the mechanisms in place to enforce our rules and the hacking away of our immigrant system has been on the downturn ever since, but yeah, not fixing the problem and focusing on boogeymen instead will certainly get it done...unreal

How come when the right has a legitimate concern, it’s the boogeyman as to diminish the concern?

Is it a safe assumption that those illegals working for big AG aren't making minimum wage?

I bet they are actually. A lot of competition for their services.

Yup...no shortage of jobs "legals" dont want to do but need to be done.

So around there would you guess it's mostly minimum wage stuff or lower paying stuff? If it's a bit of both, what industries pay minimum?

Think "part time worker" working full time. So the pay is on the up and up, but they aren't provided benefits....they can't be and there is little done to help them navigate a new country. They rely on each other for most/all things as they are learning the ways of the country. The pay isn't the issue. The isolation is more difficult to overcome.

A lot of them send money back to their families also. I agree with you. Some of these independent tradesmen just bounce around and go where the work is for cash.

MOST send money back to their families and MOST are here to do just that. What many are fed by our media is simply untrue or not applicable to a MAJORITY of those here "illegally".....both on the "pro" side and the "anti" side. Wish people would get into the community and away from media and see things through their own eyes.

I see it here, they stay in their little “community”, bother no one.

 

[The Commish]

How come when the right has a legitimate concern, it’s the boogeyman as to diminish the concern?

The concern that illegal immigration is a problem isnt the boogeyman, and it DEFINITELY isnt about "the right" for me. That should be obvious if youre reading my posts on the subject. The problem here is funding the staff to and resources to enforces our laws and processes. Fix that and the majority of these concerns go away. Focusing on anything else is the boogeyman. Or if you prefer, its treating the results of a symptom instead of the peoblem itself.

I see it here, they stay in their little “community”, bother no one.

Right. Thats the majority. Wouldnt know that by the posts in this forum and im assuming people are echoing what they here in the US media.

 

[FairWarning]

How come when the right has a legitimate concern, it’s the boogeyman as to diminish the concern?

The concern that illegal immigration is a problem isnt the boogeyman, and it DEFINITELY isnt about "the right" for me. That should be obvious if youre reading my posts on the subject. The problem here is funding the staff to and resources to enforces our laws and processes. Fix that and the majority of these concerns go away. Focusing on anything else is the boogeyman. Or if you prefer, its treating the results of a symptom instead of the peoblem itself.

I see it here, they stay in their little “community”, bother no one.

Right. Thats the majority. Wouldnt know that by the posts in this forum and im assuming people are echoing what they here in the US media.

To me it’s very hypocritical of our government to let anti-vaxxers go who are working border security, while people are coming in unchecked.

Still, if one is illegal and commits a felony, it should be called out. If they weren’t here, that crime doesn’t occur. I have no problem with our media reporting it.

 

[The Commish]

How come when the right has a legitimate concern, it’s the boogeyman as to diminish the concern?

The concern that illegal immigration is a problem isnt the boogeyman, and it DEFINITELY isnt about "the right" for me. That should be obvious if youre reading my posts on the subject. The problem here is funding the staff to and resources to enforces our laws and processes. Fix that and the majority of these concerns go away. Focusing on anything else is the boogeyman. Or if you prefer, its treating the results of a symptom instead of the peoblem itself.

I see it here, they stay in their little “community”, bother no one.

Right. Thats the majority. Wouldnt know that by the posts in this forum and im assuming people are echoing what they here in the US media.

To me it’s very hypocritical of our government to let anti-vaxxers go who are working border security, while people are coming in unchecked.

Still, if one is illegal and commits a felony, it should be called out. If they weren’t here, that crime doesn’t occur. I have no problem with our media reporting it.

Think I might have missed some discussion somewhere. My comments have nothing to do with what a person believes about vaccinations. My comments were around all the "noise" solutions that don't address the actual problem at the border and those who dismiss the actual problem at the border as if addressing it would do nothing. Medicine or medical policy isn't even on my radar.

 

[FairWarning]

How come when the right has a legitimate concern, it’s the boogeyman as to diminish the concern?

The concern that illegal immigration is a problem isnt the boogeyman, and it DEFINITELY isnt about "the right" for me. That should be obvious if youre reading my posts on the subject. The problem here is funding the staff to and resources to enforces our laws and processes. Fix that and the majority of these concerns go away. Focusing on anything else is the boogeyman. Or if you prefer, its treating the results of a symptom instead of the peoblem itself.

I see it here, they stay in their little “community”, bother no one.

Right. Thats the majority. Wouldnt know that by the posts in this forum and im assuming people are echoing what they here in the US media.

To me it’s very hypocritical of our government to let anti-vaxxers go who are working border security, while people are coming in unchecked.

Still, if one is illegal and commits a felony, it should be called out. If they weren’t here, that crime doesn’t occur. I have no problem with our media reporting it.

Think I might have missed some discussion somewhere. My comments have nothing to do with what a person believes about vaccinations. My comments were around all the "noise" solutions that don't address the actual problem at the border and those who dismiss the actual problem at the border as if addressing it would do nothing. Medicine or medical policy isn't even on my radar.

I’m saying part of the lack of people at the border to watch it were fired for not getting a vax. They were short before that though.

 

[The Commish]

How come when the right has a legitimate concern, it’s the boogeyman as to diminish the concern?

The concern that illegal immigration is a problem isnt the boogeyman, and it DEFINITELY isnt about "the right" for me. That should be obvious if youre reading my posts on the subject. The problem here is funding the staff to and resources to enforces our laws and processes. Fix that and the majority of these concerns go away. Focusing on anything else is the boogeyman. Or if you prefer, its treating the results of a symptom instead of the peoblem itself.

I see it here, they stay in their little “community”, bother no one.

Right. Thats the majority. Wouldnt know that by the posts in this forum and im assuming people are echoing what they here in the US media.

To me it’s very hypocritical of our government to let anti-vaxxers go who are working border security, while people are coming in unchecked.

Still, if one is illegal and commits a felony, it should be called out. If they weren’t here, that crime doesn’t occur. I have no problem with our media reporting it.

Think I might have missed some discussion somewhere. My comments have nothing to do with what a person believes about vaccinations. My comments were around all the "noise" solutions that don't address the actual problem at the border and those who dismiss the actual problem at the border as if addressing it would do nothing. Medicine or medical policy isn't even on my radar.

I’m saying part of the lack of people at the border to watch it were fired for not getting a vax. They were short before that though.

Probably....I don't doubt you. I don't know that matters a ton in the grand scheme of things given just how poorly funded the border, institutions and process are.

 

[Stealthycat]

Trumps wall was a colossal waste of time and money.

your argument is barriers aren't effective? if that's true, why do so many country have them? businesses? homes? rich communities ?

c'mon ... everyone knows barriers are a very good way to keep things in and to keep things out as well. Prison barriers aren't any good?

what say you here ?

Border Wall Construction Resumes Under President Joe Biden

The Biden administration laid out its plans to rev up work on completing Donald Trump’s signature project.

theintercept.com

 

[Stealthycat]

Reading your responses - 1. thank you for the bolded. Not much drives me crazy as quickly as that.

I'm guilty of doing it - call me out when i do because most often I don't mean "you" directly towards anyone. Sometimes, not often

I think I can answer a couple of your questions this way: I don't believe either side wants a long term slow of the flow of immigrants, so that is a core departure in our thinking when we are talking about this issue - you believe the GOP when they say they want to stop it. The big bucks made is bipartisan, so my belief is this is more of a political game that ebbs and flows a little, but ultimately is what they want, again - because of $. Yes, I agree with you that the Ds role in this has become to position themselves as pro-immigration (increase the flow) and the Rs are currently presenting themselves as wanting to be tough on the border (decrease flow). BUT, because of the money involved (which this part we seem to agree on), I don't think a slow of flow like Trump was after would be "allowed" long term - ie, the dems would block it from starting, or the next D president would stop production of the wall - something. Spinning the wheels like we are, and playing this game so nothing really happens to the overall flow of immigrants long term. I am just making numbers up here, but let's say overall the powers that be are OK with an average of 1M immigrants a year, they will play this game and let the GOP slow the flow to 300K a year for a little, but then it's going to be 2M for a bit when the Ds get in control. Again, just making up numbers to show my general thinking, and again - my belief is that the GOP doesn't truly want it at that 300K level as a long term solution because they are going to lose a ton of profits. Everybody needs to get paid, and each of those feeds different industries that feed off these immigrants - ie big AG benifits from more workers, and the PIC is tied to deportations and other things, so they benefit when we clamp down on the immigrants. Everybody pockets getting lined, no long term solutions.

and you aren't totally wrong because when Bush or GW could have done something did they? Obama? but Trump actually was going to attack it hard and the Democrats filed lawsuits and fought him every day and when Biden got in, suspended the border projects and relaxed security and rules/restrictions and illegal numbers have soared

that's today's reality

IMO a couple things point to this being the case for me:

1. Nothing is done to speed up these applications clear the backlog. There is a benefit to have people here illegal for long stretches - industries can pay them less or don't have to pay benefits, industries I mention profit when they are arrested or deported as well. This is why the "game" is just to speed up and slow the flow of immigrants, but nothing is ever done to speed up the process to focus on legal immigration.

and I disagree with anyone being here illegally and it shouldn't be tens and hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars trying to sort through it all while they all live here illegally when in the end they'll just stay here illegally anyway regardless of a stupid court ruling that doesn't bind them

2. Nothing is ever done or seriously suggested to punish the practice of hiring these people on a large scale. IMO the best way to stop having so many illegals and others coming here would be to crack down severely on businesses hiring them - no jobs and opportunity, and the desire to come here largely goes away. This is why commish and I have said politicians like DeSantis are fine pointing the finger at the D states and sending people to NYC and MV, but he would probably never try to get rid of the ones in his state working the industries.

this is true - crack down HARD and stop giving all Govt anything to illegals. No cell phones, stuff like that. Unacceptable when so many US citizens struggle daily and we treat illegals better

we'll see how Desantis manages it all - but it IS telling that all the cities that fight for illegals being here hates them being here when they get to their communities huh ?

As to the voting part, what I have in mind is the immigrant vote from people who crossed, became citizens and then vote. I think when they talk about the Ds wanting these votes, they are basically just referring to the vote from the Mexican, Central American, and South American demographics. What they are suggesting is the Ds are buying their votes by letting them in - they are just so grateful for that they will largely vote D. It's being shown that is either not the case as much or at least that tide is changing. They vote with their wallet and on other topics just like everybody else. I am not suggesting that there are large numbers of illegal immigrants trying to or able to vote.

articles like this points to how illegal numbers impact voting

How removing unauthorized immigrants from census statistics could affect House reapportionment

If unauthorized U.S. immigrants aren't counted, 3 states could each lose a seat they otherwise would have had and 3 others each could gain one.

www.pewresearch.org