Krista4's Beatles 1-25 List Thread! Count down will start Mon Feb 14 noon ET. Will take new lists til then... (1 Viewer)

[krista4]

I went in to details about my process for coming up with my list for the LZ thread.  I'm doing the same process here.  Basically doing rounds of review.  I will definitely have a couple more rounds for this list due to the sheer volume of songs.  Round 1 I queue up every song and listen to either a portion of it or all of it.  I put them in to In, Out, and Review groupings and continue in that fashion until I get to around 35 songs.  Some songs go straight to the 35, most get reviewed while I whittle it down.  Then I establish my last 10 out and finally rank the 25.

I expect this whole process to be more difficult here - part of that is due to the length of songs.  The Beatles have countless 2-3 minute masterpieces.  Picking between those will be difficult.

I like it: would probably have a similar process if I were coming up with a list of 25 out of whole cloth.

OH had a "top 10" but didn't do a top 25 list last time, but will be doing one this time if he'd like to continue living here.    I did a read out to him of the songs with a simple yes or no.  He was pretty restrictive and had 42 on the first list - not bad!  Then I did a read out of the 42 for another yes or no.  Down to 32.   Another yes or no readout.  24!  OK, look at this list of eight and pick one to be your #25.  Now he needs to set the other 24 in order.

Oddly enough, two that were previously in his top 10 didn't make his top 24, though one of them slid back in as #25.

 

[Pip's Invitation]

You Know My Name (Look Up The Number)?   

I once got drunk and came up with a whole theory about this song, most of which I’ve forgotten.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

Watching this Non Beatles this morning if anyone wants to see modern greatness

vaguely have heard of them - sounds pretty good really, I'm not much of a jam band guy

looked them up - often referred as "trance fusion"

 

[Gr00vus]

....

5. Ringo.

...He was quietly adapting and arranging his drum part so that it was moulded perfectly to suit the song. So many drummers I’ve worked with want to put flashy fills in, almost as show-off moves. Ringo was the opposite. Also his style was unique. Without wanting to get too technical, he knew how to lay back BEHIND the beat and not ahead of it. Most drummers do the latter or desperately try and keep metronomical time. ..

I'm going to engage in nitpicking here, they're overstating the case for Ringo with these two lines of reasoning. Good drummers know to play what the song needs, not what they want to play to show off their chops. And there are plenty of technically awesome players who know to subject their virtuosity to just what fits the song and nothing more - especially when cutting studio tracks. This isn't a Ringo specific thing. Similarly with playing behind the beat - that's the essence of a lot of blues, jazz, funk drumming. There have been/are tons of drummers who do this - before, during, and after Ringo. In addition, good drummers can and do use all 3 approaches (behind, on, ahead of the beat) in accordance with what fits the song.

That said (as I've done before) Ringo is unique, has a style all his own, and you know it's Ringo playing a track just by listening. The Beatles wouldn't have been the same without him.

 

[Guido Merkins]

I was prepared to hate this, as I do all such videos, but I loved it.  That tribute to Ringo was incredible!  The kid can even do the deep cuts.  Delightful.

The little girl is a MESS!!!!!  Great videos!!!  Love to see the music being passed down to the next generation.  I'm doing my part too.  At least once a week, the sound of a Beatles song is coming out of my 16 year old daughter's room on piano and vocal.  She loves them and loves to play them.  

 

[Guido Merkins]

I'm going to engage in nitpicking here, they're overstating the case for Ringo with these two lines of reasoning. Good drummers know to play what the song needs, not what they want to play to show off their chops. And there are plenty of technically awesome players who know to subject their virtuosity to just what fits the song and nothing more - especially when cutting studio tracks. This isn't a Ringo specific thing. Similarly with playing behind the beat - that's the essence of a lot of blues, jazz, funk drumming. There have been/are tons of drummers who do this - before, during, and after Ringo. In addition, good drummers can and do use all 3 approaches (behind, on, ahead of the beat) in accordance with what fits the song.

That said (as I've done before) Ringo is unique, has a style all his own, and you know it's Ringo playing a track just by listening. The Beatles wouldn't have been the same without him.

Absolutely

Ringo did what other great drummers do, but in his own unique style.....

 

[DA RAIDERS]

Anyone read that?

 

[Gr00vus]

I'd prefer not to have the individual songs ranked separately.  But if you're going to do it, I can't see the logic for grouping two of them together but not the others.   

I'll go with whatever works for everyone - no biggie to me. I know what @Binky The Doormat is rooting for...

 

[Binky The Doormat]

PROCESS CHAT

1)  I no longer have my spreadsheet or results from my last set of rankings ...but don't really want to see them anyway.  

2)  Create initial list:  Go to a Beatles "songs ranked site" and grab the songs that I like ...a lot, like a whole lot - I purposely left a number of songs off my initial list because though I may love them, I knew they weren't going to compete for my top 25.  This included much of their earlier stuff - the stuff that I love, but just wouldn't be what I want to listen to now.

3)  Initial list - even after the pre-scrubbing of songs that are great, important to me ...I have 74 songs.

4)  Appeal to Getz the 15th for expanding the list to a larger count.  Receive abuse from the king (lower case king) and move on.

5)  Seize upon the idea of being able to utilize the picks not used by others (thanks Groovus!) ...begin to realize the Getz is not excited about this concept and doesn't seem to be willing to work closely with me on this exciting concept.

6)  Go through the list of 74 and with a lot of teeth gnashing, some occasional wailing, and more weltschmerz than Pete Wentz at an emo festival.  Drag some off, put some back on, repeat for a couple of days.  End up with 43.  With more than a handful that you feel like really need to be put back.

7)  Current state.  

 

[Zegras11]

Did anyone read that?

 

[Gr00vus]

Did anyone read that?

Binky's down to 43 contestants heading into the swimsuit round.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

Did anyone read that?

reaction.

 

[Zegras11]

Binky's down to 43 contestants heading into the swimsuit round.

Crinkle fries for everyone!!

 

[Binky The Doormat]

Crinkle fries for everyone!!

that cut too deep ...

 

[Zegras11]

that cut too deep ...

Sonny, let me change that to the curly fries.  

Grandma, you can leave me of 43 if you like. It's not really going to change the overall standings in the end if everyone did that.  

P.s.  I will only use the top 25 if you do. 

 

[krista4]

Reminder, because I just marked some posts as such, that I am now using the "cry" reaction to indicate laughing.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

Sonny, let me change that to the curly fries.  

Grandma, you can leave me of 43 if you like. It's not really going to change the overall standings in the end if everyone did that.  

P.s.  I will only use the top 25 if you do. 

I will be filing a formal appeal for the use of @Gr00vus unused picks based on the "Waste Not, Want Not" provision under the "Laws of Our Mothers" section as a part of the "Rights of Common Courtesy" bill long established on this bored.    

 

[Zegras11]

I will be filing a formal appeal for the use of @Gr00vus unused picks based on the "Waste Not, Want Not" provision under the "Laws of Our Mothers" section as a part of the "Rights of Common Courtesy" bill long established on this bored.    

Free order of crinkles attached to those three picks.  Hurry before someone else grabs them.  

 

[krista4]

I will be filing a formal appeal for the use of @Gr00vus unused picks based on the "Waste Not, Want Not" provision under the "Laws of Our Mothers" section as a part of the "Rights of Common Courtesy" bill long established on this bored.    

I think you have to contact the board ombudsman first.

 

[PIK95]

I went in to details about my process for coming up with my list for the LZ thread.  I'm doing the same process here.  Basically doing rounds of review.  I will definitely have a couple more rounds for this list due to the sheer volume of songs.  Round 1 I queue up every song and listen to either a portion of it or all of it.  I put them in to In, Out, and Review groupings and continue in that fashion until I get to around 35 songs.  Some songs go straight to the 35, most get reviewed while I whittle it down.  Then I establish my last 10 out and finally rank the 25.

I expect this whole process to be more difficult here - part of that is due to the length of songs.  The Beatles have countless 2-3 minute masterpieces.  Picking between those will be difficult.

Basically what I did.  I spent a month making my perfect Beatles playlist over the summer, so that was my starting point.  I also did head to head after I had my 25 in order.  I think I dropped one down a bit once I realized.  It was...Something.  Actually Oh Darling, which I like a lot, got dropped to around twenty after starting a lil higher.  Most others stayed put. It was a fun process.

Not gonna lie, I am already sick of listening to the Beatles.  Played them to much this week.  Gonna take a break.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

I think you have to contact the board ombudsman first.

I'm talking to her - and you're not only the "budsman" you're also a witness.  

####in' guy threatened me with crinkle fries.  

 

[wikkidpissah]

for years & years, i searched the world for a job with someone who wanted a man to be in charge of just "om" and buds. finally found one, but all they wanted me to do was harsh the buzz of them what hired me. total bummer...

ETA: wait! there was crinkle fries?!

 

[PIK95]

I'm going to engage in nitpicking here, they're overstating the case for Ringo with these two lines of reasoning. Good drummers know to play what the song needs, not what they want to play to show off their chops. And there are plenty of technically awesome players who know to subject their virtuosity to just what fits the song and nothing more - especially when cutting studio tracks. This isn't a Ringo specific thing. Similarly with playing behind the beat - that's the essence of a lot of blues, jazz, funk drumming. There have been/are tons of drummers who do this - before, during, and after Ringo. In addition, good drummers can and do use all 3 approaches (behind, on, ahead of the beat) in accordance with what fits the song.

That said (as I've done before) Ringo is unique, has a style all his own, and you know it's Ringo playing a track just by listening. The Beatles wouldn't have been the same without him.

What do you think of DR. fameus Allen Aucoin?  Where does he rank amongst the all time greats?

 

[PIK95]

Reminder, because I just marked some posts as such, that I am now using the "cry" reaction to indicate laughing.

sticking with the laughing repost, in lieu of no reaction still.

But I respect the effort.

 

[PIK95]

vaguely have heard of them - sounds pretty good really, I'm not much of a jam band guy

looked them up - often referred as "trance fusion"

   Yeah, they are my favorite band of all time now.  The music is incredible, but the light shows, free streams, cool guys factor, and history make it fun.  We have group streams every show and it's a blast.  The scene like the FFA 3.0.  I freaking talk to the bass player on twitter on the reg, lol.  He gives my buddy virtual bass lessons all the time. 

   Barber and the drummer Allen, are up there with any musicians I have ever heard.  Barber is a tech guy, and invented an app in vegas to order drinks.  Rumor is he's a billionaire, lol. He started a new streaming app called couch tour where vid and sound quality are the priority.  The sound is the best I have ever head on a stream.

   I can't stress enough to all you real music lovers to give them a chance.  It may take a lil while to understand all of it, but it's so worth it imo.  They played a whole space based set at Camp Bisco, the Moon Landing Anniversary Set.  Including the Duck Tales Moon Theme.  They played Thank You For Being a Friend on Betty's day. Always something.  They released a special vinyl of a show where they decided to play all Classical songs.  It's on spotify.  Called the The Classical Set   amazing.  And ask me any questions any time about them.  I obviously love it.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

Facts about my current list of 43 songs

Lennon songs - 17

McCartney songs - 13

Harrison songs - 13

 

[krista4]

Facts about my current list of 43 songs

Lennon songs - 17

McCartney songs - 13

Harrison songs - 13

At some point when we get into this, I'll be curious to see how people divvied them up as "Lennon" vs. "McCartney" songs.  I mean, some are obvious, but some were clearly a near-equal effort and some aren't very clear.  Even Paul doesn't recall the genesis of some of them and who took the laboring oar.  Should I assume from your having no "Lennon-McCartney" that you don't have something like "A Day In The Life" or "I've Got A Feeling" or "We Can Work It Out" on there?

 

[PIK95]

At some point when we get into this, I'll be curious to see how people divvied them up as "Lennon" vs. "McCartney" songs.  I mean, some are obvious, but some were clearly a near-equal effort and some aren't very clear.  Even Paul doesn't recall the genesis of some of them and who took the laboring oar.  Should I assume from your having no "Lennon-McCartney" that you don't have something like "A Day In The Life" or "I've Got A Feeling" or "We Can Work It Out" on there?

I like Paul's voice best, but I have no idea how my songs fell.  I am a instrument guy more than a vocals guy when I listen to any music.  I always have to look up lyrics if I care enough.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

At some point when we get into this, I'll be curious to see how people divvied them up as "Lennon" vs. "McCartney" songs.  I mean, some are obvious, but some were clearly a near-equal effort and some aren't very clear.  Even Paul doesn't recall the genesis of some of them and who took the laboring oar.  Should I assume from your having no "Lennon-McCartney" that you don't have something like "A Day In The Life" or "I've Got A Feeling" or "We Can Work It Out" on there?

I looked around the innerwebs to see if one of them seemed to either write the song, write most of the song, or seemed to be the driving force within the song ...with the Lennon/McCartney credit given.

I then assigned one of them to the song  - a couple of them were tougher than others.  I'm not opposed to putting the Lennon/McCartney split on those.   

 

[Binky The Doormat]

Facts about my current list of 43 songs

8 - White Album

6 - Revolver

6 - Rubber Soul

4 - Help!

3 - single release

3 - Abbey Road

3 - Let It Be

2 - Sgt. Pepper's LHCB

2 - A Hard Day's Night

2 - Yellow Submarine

2 - Beatles For Sale

1 - Magical Mystery Tour

1 - With The Beatles

 

[Pip's Invitation]

PROCESS CHAT

1)  I no longer have my spreadsheet or results from my last set of rankings ...but don't really want to see them anyway.  

2)  Create initial list:  Go to a Beatles "songs ranked site" and grab the songs that I like ...a lot, like a whole lot - I purposely left a number of songs off my initial list because though I may love them, I knew they weren't going to compete for my top 25.  This included much of their earlier stuff - the stuff that I love, but just wouldn't be what I want to listen to now.

3)  Initial list - even after the pre-scrubbing of songs that are great, important to me ...I have 74 songs.

4)  Appeal to Getz the 15th for expanding the list to a larger count.  Receive abuse from the king (lower case king) and move on.

5)  Seize upon the idea of being able to utilize the picks not used by others (thanks Groovus!) ...begin to realize the Getz is not excited about this concept and doesn't seem to be willing to work closely with me on this exciting concept.

6)  Go through the list of 74 and with a lot of teeth gnashing, some occasional wailing, and more weltschmerz than Pete Wentz at an emo festival.  Drag some off, put some back on, repeat for a couple of days.  End up with 43.  With more than a handful that you feel like really need to be put back.

7)  Current state.  

In other words, your editing skills are about the same as Peter Jackson’s.

 

[Binky The Doormat]

In other words, your editing skills are about the same as Peter Jackson’s.

we luv it all baby 

 

[krista4]

I like Paul's voice best, but I have no idea how my songs fell.  I am a instrument guy more than a vocals guy when I listen to any music.  I always have to look up lyrics if I care enough.

Oh, I meant writing not vocals, which is how I assumed people were breaking their songs down.

 

[johnnycakes]

My link. 

 

[rockaction]

Oh, I meant writing not vocals, which is how I assumed people were breaking their songs down.

How to tell a Lennon/McCartney influence? 

Can I guess, as someone who has never really thought to explore that element? 

Lennon: edgier, more troubled, a bit more violent, melancholy, fighting

Paul: hand-holding, happier, upbeat, resolution-building

Some articles:

https://www.secretsofsongwriting.com/2020/04/06/the-differences-between-lennons-and-mccartneys-melodies/

https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/beatles-song-john-lennon-and-paul-mccartney-show-their-true-colours/

https://www.discovermagazine.com/technology/lennon-or-mccartney-we-may-finally-have-the-answer

Anyway, they're not mind-blowing articles, but something to consider for those who otherwise might be unaware, like myself. 

 

[krista4]

How to tell a Lennon/McCartney influence? 

Can I guess, as someone who has never really thought to explore that element? 

Lennon: edgier, more troubled, a bit more violent, melancholy, fighting

Paul: hand-holding, happier, upbeat, resolution-building

Haven't read the articles (yet), but this is a common misperception.  See, e.g., Helter Skelter.

 

[rockaction]

Haven't read the articles (yet), but this is a common misperception.  See, e.g., Helter Skelter.

Ah, gotcha on the line. So what would you say are the differences? How can you tell? 

 

[simey]

Paul: hand-holding, happier, upbeat, resolution-building

I didn't read the articles yet, but Paul wasn't just happiness and sunshine. k4 mentioned Helter Skelter, and a few other examples of some songs Paul primarily wrote that aren't warm and fuzzy are Eleanor Rigby, For No One, She's Leaving Home, Yesterday, The Long and Winding Road, I'm Down, You Never Give Me Your Money, Carry That Weight, etc.  

 

[landrys hat]

I just read thru some of Krista's thread last night for the first time.  That was pretty entertaining.

 

[krista4]

My link. 

Cold, man. 

 

[Guido Merkins]

Ah, gotcha on the line. So what would you say are the differences? How can you tell? 

The rule is MOSTLY true, but not completely.  Julia is just about the sweetest love song either of them wrote, and it was by John.  John could be a hopeless romantic and Paul can do Helter Skelter.

If I had to give them a style, John tends to sing songs around just a few notes, but the chords are kind of going nuts underneath.  Paul's lyrical lines tend to be more flowing.  More notes.  More range.  Even this is kind of too simple to be true. 

The common stereotype is John is a word person and Paul is a music person.  But once again, too simple to be true.  They were both complete songwriters, but the reason why they worked so well together, IMO, is because they tended to smooth out each of their weaknesses.  John could be TOO harsh and topical (Sometime in New York City) and Paul tended to balance that out with a bit of optimism and universality.  Paul could be too sappy (love the song, but "My Love" is kind of over the top, even for Paul), John tended to give it a little roughness. 

They seemed to keep their worst instincts MOSTLY in check when writing together because, whether or not they'd admit it, they were writing to impress each other.  

 

[krista4]

Julia is just about the sweetest love song either of them wrote, and it was by John. 

Not to mention the sweetness of "In My Life." 

rock, I was about to punt on your question until later, but then saw Guido's excellent post.  The truth is that I don't have a trick or process for knowing who did what and primarily just rely on what I've read over the years, so that it's deeply ingrained at this point.  But I think Guido's points are valid.  I do think John's lyrics tend to be more poetic, though, which is why he's often thought of as the "words guy."  Paul couldn't have written "Across the Universe," which I consider to have the most true poetry in the lyrics of any Beatles song.

One item I'd add is that, with some exceptions (there always are), John's lyrics were much more personal while Paul's are more detached and observational.  Want to write a song about loneliness?  Paul conjures a fictitious world where other people are lonely in "Eleanor Rigby," while John writes "Yes I'm lonely; want to die" in "Yer Blues" or literally screams for "Help!"  Feeling nostalgic for your childhood?  John writes a personal account of his mother in "Julia," while Paul again conjures fictitious people to describe his upbringing in "Penny Lane."  John worked out his emotions in his songs so much more, which of course hit its peak with the first Plastic Ono record.  

I think I wrote about this some in one of the threads, but I don't read my posts.

 

[rockaction]

Very interesting, k4. 

 

[BobbyLayne]

We are treating the Abbey Road medley as one song for ranking purposes, correct?

 

[Pip's Invitation]

We are treating the Abbey Road medley as one song for ranking purposes, correct?

Yes. 

 

[Guido Merkins]

I think the most fascinating way to talk about the differences between Lennon and McCartney might be by looking at, arguably, their most famous single, Penny Lane/Strawberry Fields Forever.  This is valid because, for maybe the only time in their career, they were both attempting to write a song with a common theme, their childhood.  How they go about it and what results IMO gives a glimpse into their different styles and approaches.  As krista said above, however, there were many times in their career where they strayed from their own "style" into each other's wheelhouse, but PL/SFF is a great way to look at their differences and how they approached a common task in their own way.

 

[Guido Merkins]

Strawberry Fields Forever was written by John over a long period of time while he acted in a movie called "How I Won the War."  He wrote it on acoustic guitar and Strawberry Field was a place near John's house that was an old Salvation Army place.  John and his friends would go to Strawberry Fields to play.  John wanted to write a song about his childhood and used Strawberry Field as a sort of colorful image.  The lyrics had nothing whatsoever to do with Strawberry Field.  John wrote the song as a very personal song reflecting on his childhood within himself.

Strawberry Fields Forever is unique in that there are a vast wealth of demos and outtakes that allows you to trace the song from conception until final recording.  John brought the song in and played it on acoustic and George Martin commented that he was "mesmerized" by the song and wishes he had just recorded it with just John.  It had this very dreamy quality that was unusual for John at the time.  Then they go through a bunch of recordings.  First take with a slide guitar and mellotron.  Then getting a little heavier with drums and guitar.  Then finally a scored version with VERY heavy drums and George playing a swarmandal.  John liked a little of the lighter version and the last part of the heavier version so George Martin sped one down and slowed one down and they somehow met in the middle and worked.  John, in interviews, said he was never happy with the recording.  Most everyone else, thinks the recording is an absolute masterpiece.

Notice a few things.  First, John kind of didn't know what he wanted to do with the song musically. John was great with lyrics and melodies, but the sounds he could get, he was always a little lost and certainly with technology, he was lost.  He would describe things about how he wanted it to feel like to George Martin instead of saying "I think it needs strings", for example.  Second, the melody is on just a few notes, not very rangy.  Third, the chord progression has some quirkiness like the 5th chord on this song being a minor chord, which is almost never done.  Fourth, John writes from his own experience.  He uses Strawberry Field because he likes the imagery of the name, not because he is trying to tell a story about Strawberry Field.  He tells a story about his childhood, but from his own experience and about himself

 

[Guido Merkins]

Penny Lane is ALSO a song about Liverpool.  Penny Lane is a district in Liverpool that Paul spent time in as a child.  Ironically, it was John who first mentioned Penny Lane in a early draft of what would become "In My Life", but he didn't like it.  Listing a bunch of places and trying to tell stories about it wasn't in John's wheelhouse, BUT it was in Paul's.  

Unlike Strawberry Fields Forever, there aren't a bunch of outtakes and demos of Penny Lane.  Why?  Because Paul was musically more literate and more aware of what he wanted in a song that he wrote.  This is probably why both John and George reported that Paul never wanted input on his songs.  Paul usually knew what he wanted.  Paul started with the song on piano and layered everything else on top.  He wanted a very clean recording, so they recorded everything on a separate track.  Paul heard Brandenburg Concerto and heard a piccolo trumpet and wanted to use it for Penny Lane.  They did and it's the most distinguishing characteristic of the final recording.  Penny Lane is told about various places and characters that Paul remembers from his childhood.  The "pretty nurses", "firemen", "barber", etc.  Like John, however, Paul also tells his story in a slightly surreal and vivid way. The barber with "every head he's had the pleasure to know" or the pretty nurses who "feels as if she's in a play". The banker "never wears a mac in the pouring rain".  And all of it is "very strange". Even a little smut with the phrase "finger pie."

Notice, Paul knew exactly what he wanted, unlike John with Strawberry Fields Forever.  Second, the melody is rangy and bounces along on more than just a few notes.  Third the chord progression is a bit more standard than John.  It almost sounds like a standard from the Great American Songbook.  Fourth, Paul writes from his experience, but it's not about himself directly.  He is story telling his own experiences in Penny Lane, what he saw and what he heard.  In this case, you don't learn about what Paul actually thought about his childhood, just that he remembers this stuff.

 

[ProstheticRGK]

After reading those write-ups, there is no way I can hang in this thread. I am like Chris Farley on the SNL skit where he interviews Paul: "Remember when you were in the Beatles? That was awesome!"

I am about halfway through reading @krista4 magnum opus thread. What a great thread! So well written and so much fun, and I learned more about the Beatles than I ever had, and learned a lot about music, as well. Krista, you should definitely put that together as a book, or primer on the Beatles, or something. You have a real gift for writing and the time and energy you put into that thread is much appreciated. Thank you!

I'll do my top 25 list, but I am afraid that recency bias is going to make choose a lot more recent songs since watching "Get Back".

 

[krista4]

I think the most fascinating way to talk about the differences between Lennon and McCartney might be by looking at, arguably, their most famous single, Penny Lane/Strawberry Fields Forever.  This is valid because, for maybe the only time in their career, they were both attempting to write a song with a common theme, their childhood.  How they go about it and what results IMO gives a glimpse into their different styles and approaches.  As krista said above, however, there were many times in their career where they strayed from their own "style" into each other's wheelhouse, but PL/SFF is a great way to look at their differences and how they approached a common task in their own way.

Gah!  I was thinking about these two in the shower this morning and intended to write about those two to compare and contrast, then saw your mention of "Julia" and forgot to go there.  Thank you for this!