L. Jackson or J. Hurts (1 Viewer)

[Snotbubbles]

A couple of things:

1. In the 2021 Eagles' thread, I posted that (paraphrasing) I thought Hurts had a chance to be a really good QB. That he looked like the game wasn't too big for him. His numbers weren't great, but he looked cool, calm, collected, and talented to me (I think they had just lost to GB?). Guess how that post was received by many Philly fans on this board? I'm too lazy to find my post, but it (& the responses) should still be here somewhere. I wonder if any of the Hurts backers in this thread were one of the dissenters to my post a mere 1.5 years ago. This isn't a look-at-me thing (because my evaluation skills on athletes aren't very good), but just to say that our views change quickly based on current events.

Honestly, I'm not quite @DJackson10 levels of skeptical on Hurts, but I still have questions about him. I'm not entirely sure that last season wasn't an outlier instead of the norm. Those questions will be answered this season for me.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

A couple of things:

1. In the 2021 Eagles' thread, I posted that (paraphrasing) I thought Hurts had a chance to be a really good QB. That he looked like the game wasn't too big for him. His numbers weren't great, but he looked cool, calm, collected, and talented to me (I think they had just lost to GB?). Guess how that post was received by many Philly fans on this board? I'm too lazy to find my post, but it (& the responses) should still be here somewhere. I wonder if any of the Hurts backers in this thread were one of the dissenters to my post a mere 1.5 years ago. This isn't a look-at-me thing (because my evaluation skills on athletes aren't very good), but just to say that our views change quickly based on current events.

Honestly, I'm not quite @DJackson10 levels of skeptical on Hurts, but I still have questions about him. I'm not entirely sure that last season wasn't an outlier instead of the norm. Those questions will be answered this season for me.

I guess my point was that he wasn't overmatched. The lightbulb hadn't quite clicked (& they didn't have AJ Brown yet).

 

[Snotbubbles]

Did anyone else watch Jackson at Louisville? He was running Petrino's offense, which is way more "NFL Normal" than what Roman did. He destroyed teams throwing the ball.

He completed 57% of his pass attempts in college. That is pretty pedestrian.

 

[humpback]

Did anyone else watch Jackson at Louisville? He was running Petrino's offense, which is way more "NFL Normal" than what Roman did. He destroyed teams throwing the ball.

I mean, he had a 57% completion rate in his college career. Sure, he destroyed some teams like UNC and Murray State but he also got destroyed in the the Bowl Game vs. Mississippi State.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Did anyone else watch Jackson at Louisville? He was running Petrino's offense, which is way more "NFL Normal" than what Roman did. He destroyed teams throwing the ball.

I mean, he had a 57% completion rate in his college career. Sure, he "destroyed" some teams like UNC and Murray State but he also got destroyed in the the Bowl Game vs. Mississippi State.

Fantastic point. Pity he didn't play for Alabama or Oklahoma.

 

[humpback]

Did anyone else watch Jackson at Louisville? He was running Petrino's offense, which is way more "NFL Normal" than what Roman did. He destroyed teams throwing the ball.

I mean, he had a 57% completion rate in his college career. Sure, he "destroyed" some teams like UNC and Murray State but he also got destroyed in the the Bowl Game vs. Mississippi State.

Fantastic point. Pity he didn't play for Alabama or Oklahoma.

Yeah, it's a shame that they didn't want him.

Do you seriously expect to just throw out "he destroyed teams throwing the ball" without any pushback? I mean, there's a reason why Baltimore was the only team willing to draft him in the 1st round. He was not a great passer in college, not sure why you can't admit it but whatever.

 

[LawFitz]

Do you seriously expect to just throw out "he destroyed teams throwing the ball" without any pushback? I mean, there's a reason why Baltimore was the only team willing to draft him in the 1st round. He was not a great passer in college

I don't consider these two statements to be mutually exclusive. Critics spoke of him like he was a runner only with no passing chops. Many still do, even in this thread (perhaps not you). The comp% metric did not tell the whole story then, and still doesn't not now. 57% from Lamar Jackson is not the same as 57% from Davis Mills. And BTW, Lamar's career NFL comp% is 64% with mostly bags of potatoes for WRs.

 

[humpback]

Do you seriously expect to just throw out "he destroyed teams throwing the ball" without any pushback? I mean, there's a reason why Baltimore was the only team willing to draft him in the 1st round. He was not a great passer in college

I don't consider these two statements to be mutually exclusive. Critics spoke of him like he was a runner only with no passing chops. Many still do, even in this thread (perhaps not you). The comp% metric did not tell the whole story then, and still doesn't not now. 57% from Lamar Jackson is not the same as 57% from Davis Mills. And BTW, Lamar's career NFL comp% is 64% with mostly bags of potatoes for WRs.

Maybe that's a disconnect because I certainly do. I've never heard someone use the word" "destroyed" in this context simply to argue that they weren't terrible at something, it generally means they dominated/were great at it.

No argument that the comp % does not tell the whole story, but again, it wasn't brought up as an argument that he sucked, it was brought up to refute the idea that he was great.

ETA- And I don't see anyone in here saying that Lamar is a runner only with no passing chops. A few said that they think Hurts is the better passer but that isn't the same thing at all.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

I've never heard someone use the word" "destroyed" in this context simply to argue that they weren't terrible at something

Good Lord.

Y'all have fun in here.

 

[Chaka]

I've never heard someone use the word" "destroyed" in this context simply to argue that they weren't terrible at something

Good Lord.

Y'all have fun in here.

Hump may hate straw men but he loves some semantics.

 

[pollardsvision]

Recency bias makes this a difficult question. One just went to the Super Bowl, and the other hasn't played a full season since Trump was President.

It's hard not say Hurts, but when Lamar is right, he can flip this debate in a heartbeat.

And while I agree on the supporting cast because the Eagles have put together a particularly exceptional roster, the Ravens are not chop liver. They have not landed top flight WR's, but they build good football teams.
This franchise has had 2 losing seasons since George W. Bush left office.

 

[ghostguy123]

Nice to see Hurts finally getting the respect he deserves on these boards. That said, Lamar is the better player. Amazing to see so many discount his passing ability. Their situations weren't even remotely comparable last year. Injury risk is the only reason I'd favor Hurts if I were picking between them. And that is zero disrespect to Hurts. The only QB I'd take over Lamar Jackson, if we are removing injury risk (and team situation) from the analysis, is Patty Mahomes.

I don't think Hurts is done getting better. I think Jackson is what he's going to be going forward.

Lamar has never had anything resembling NFL quality WRs.
Just throwing that out there. It actually does matter.
I'm not even saying which guy I would prefer cause I don't know, but ya still have to acknowledge that even if you pick the Hurts side.

 

[renesauz]

Went Hurts. I honestly believe Jacksons passing skills are under-rated in general, but I think that's at least somewhat true of Hurts also. Right now I think Hurts is the slightly better passer, Lamar the slightly more dynamic runner. Hurts has ALL the intangibles though. Lamar is no slough, he comes across as a good leader and player, but Hurts is elite in the leadership area. And that's enough to tip it his way.

I don't think anyones crazy leaning Jackson though...Hurt only has one great year to this point.

 

[Chaka]

Many people in here are talking about leadership as if we have any real idea how either player is viewed by the players or organization.

Sorry, but we don't. Certainly not enough to make an objective comparison between these two places.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

Many people in here are talking about leadership as if we have any real idea how either player is viewed by the players or organization.

Sorry, but we don't. Certainly not enough to make an objective comparison between these two places.

Ravens players have been very vocal about Jackson's leadership. When you have Calais Campbell - one of the most intelligent and thoughtful players in the NFL - telling you that Jackson is a great leader, it pays to at least listen. And he's far from the only one.

I'm sure there are similar comments by Eagles players about Hurts.

 

[Terpman22]

Many people in here are talking about leadership as if we have any real idea how either player is viewed by the players or organization.

Sorry, but we don't. Certainly not enough to make an objective comparison between these two places.

I mean one guy asked for a trade and leaked a bunch of stuff on twitter, refuting reports etc.

Another guy just doesn't even go on social media and had 3 guys take below market deals to stay on his team this year.

I think there is plenty of evidence about how Jalen Hurts is talked about by the organization, quotes from the Owner, General Manager, Head Coach and multiple players - many of which are great leaders themselves like Jason Kelce. I can't say I have heard that much about Lamar on those levels.

 

[Chaka]

Many people in here are talking about leadership as if we have any real idea how either player is viewed by the players or organization.

Sorry, but we don't. Certainly not enough to make an objective comparison between these two places.

I mean one guy asked for a trade and leaked a bunch of stuff on twitter, refuting reports etc.

Another guy just doesn't even go on social media and had 3 guys take below market deals to stay on his team this year.

I think there is plenty of evidence about how Jalen Hurts is talked about by the organization, quotes from the Owner, General Manager, Head Coach and multiple players - many of which are great leaders themselves like Jason Kelce. I can't say I have heard that much about Lamar on those levels.

Doesn't every account about Lamar indicate the locker room loves the guy?

The fact that you have to go to social media "leaks" to debate this point seems to support the idea that we on the outside don't know nearly enough to formulate a qualitative opinion vis-a-vis Lamar and Hurts leadership ability

It's a 10-cent distinction in $156 million debate.

 

[Terpman22]

Many people in here are talking about leadership as if we have any real idea how either player is viewed by the players or organization.

Sorry, but we don't. Certainly not enough to make an objective comparison between these two places.

I mean one guy asked for a trade and leaked a bunch of stuff on twitter, refuting reports etc.

Another guy just doesn't even go on social media and had 3 guys take below market deals to stay on his team this year.

I think there is plenty of evidence about how Jalen Hurts is talked about by the organization, quotes from the Owner, General Manager, Head Coach and multiple players - many of which are great leaders themselves like Jason Kelce. I can't say I have heard that much about Lamar on those levels.

Doesn't every account about Lamar indicate the locker room loves the guy?

The fact that you have to go to social media "leaks" to debate this point seems to support the idea that we on the outside don't know nearly enough to formulate a qualitative opinion vis-a-vis Lamar and Hurts leadership ability

It's a 10-cent distinction in $156 million debate.

I mean, this kind of further proves my point. I'm talking about HIM directly tweeting and refuting reports like "I wasn't offered this much GTD etc" without him actually saying stuff, I could assume more so that he was a better leader. I'm not saying the team doesn't love him, I'm sure they do, in the "get your money" type of theme. I'm merely pointing out the difference where he felt he "needed" to talk publicly and Jalen never said one word about contract stuff. Its very minor, but personally I don't want my QB whining about contract negotiations and then getting to the point that its become public he wanted to be traded. To each their own I suppose.

 

[Chaka]

Many people in here are talking about leadership as if we have any real idea how either player is viewed by the players or organization.

Sorry, but we don't. Certainly not enough to make an objective comparison between these two places.

I mean one guy asked for a trade and leaked a bunch of stuff on twitter, refuting reports etc.

Another guy just doesn't even go on social media and had 3 guys take below market deals to stay on his team this year.

I think there is plenty of evidence about how Jalen Hurts is talked about by the organization, quotes from the Owner, General Manager, Head Coach and multiple players - many of which are great leaders themselves like Jason Kelce. I can't say I have heard that much about Lamar on those levels.

Doesn't every account about Lamar indicate the locker room loves the guy?

The fact that you have to go to social media "leaks" to debate this point seems to support the idea that we on the outside don't know nearly enough to formulate a qualitative opinion vis-a-vis Lamar and Hurts leadership ability

It's a 10-cent distinction in $156 million debate.

I mean, this kind of further proves my point. I'm talking about HIM directly tweeting and refuting reports like "I wasn't offered this much GTD etc" without him actually saying stuff, I could assume more so that he was a better leader. I'm not saying the team doesn't love him, I'm sure they do, in the "get your money" type of theme. I'm merely pointing out the difference where he felt he "needed" to talk publicly and Jalen never said one word about contract stuff. Its very minor, but personally I don't want my QB whining about contract negotiations and then getting to the point that its become public he wanted to be traded. To each their own I suppose.

Again, it's a 10 cent distinction in a $150 million debate.

You see that tweet and take a fairly large, yet perfectly normal, leap to the conclusion Lamar is viewed as less of a leader than Hurts.

I am only saying that what we we know pales in comparison to what we think we know + what we don't know + the stuff we don't know that we don't know.

 

[Amused to Death]

Again, it's a 10 cent distinction in a $150 million debate.

You see that tweet and take a fairly large, yet perfectly normal, leap to the conclusion Lamar is viewed as less of a leader than Hurts.

I am only saying that what we we know pales in comparison to what we think we know + what we don't know + the stuff we don't know that we don't know.

Its really not worth the back and forth on a message board, but fans in the Philly market know how respected Hurts is both by the ownership and the locker room. Its really not in question.

 

[Chaka]

Again, it's a 10 cent distinction in a $150 million debate.

You see that tweet and take a fairly large, yet perfectly normal, leap to the conclusion Lamar is viewed as less of a leader than Hurts.

I am only saying that what we we know pales in comparison to what we think we know + what we don't know + the stuff we don't know that we don't know.

Its really not worth the back and forth on a message board, but fans in the Philly market know how respected Hurts is both by the ownership and the locker room. Its really not in question.

I hope it does not appear that I am questioning Jalen's leadership. I am not in the least and that is nowhere near the point I am trying to make.

All I am saying is that it is a poor metric to try and suss out any meaningful distinction between Jalen & Lamar.

I personally believe that the fans in Baltimore and the players in the locker room feel the same about Lamar as the people & players in Philly feel about Jalen. Is there a meaningful way to apply a value to that kind of information? I think there is not.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

I'm sure they do, in the "get your money" type of theme.

No.

As someone who follows the Ravens pretty closely, I'm telling you that every comment I've seen from players and team officials rave about Jackson's leadership skills. Has nothing to do with cashing in.

 

[Terpman22]

I'm sure they do, in the "get your money" type of theme.

No.

As someone who follows the Ravens pretty closely, I'm telling you that every comment I've seen from players and team officials rave about Jackson's leadership skills. Has nothing to do with cashing in.

I just meant that they supported his contract negotiation efforts. My Dad is a diehard born in Baltimore, Ravens fan. I'm keenly aware of how they feel about him.