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L. Jackson or J. Hurts (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter BassNBrew
- Start date
unckeyherb
Footballguy
Hurts for his leadership skills alone. He's a better passer, a lesser runner. As an Eagles fan that doesn't want his new $255 Million QB running more than he needs to, I'm ok with that.
fred_1_15301
Footballguy
Hurts for sure. The guy has the makeup of a star. A true leader on and off the field.
-OZ-
Footballguy
/endthread.
As players I think they’re basically on par. Choose your preference kind of deal.
But hurts wins out on leadership and character. Lamar doesn’t really lack character but he hasn’t proven himself to be on the same level.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
The media was reporting Hurts has been at the Eagles facility working his butt off and that the Superbowl loss has made him even more hungry. Everyone in the locker room loves the guy. He's got all the intangibles you want. That's what I want from my QB. Eat, sleep and breathe football.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Jackson is an incredible running QB but his passing is not great. He will also continue to get dinged every season due to all the running. Give me Hurts since he is a better passer and a more controlled but still very effective runner.
Drake Hater
Footballguy
Hurts all day.
MTskibum
Footballguy
I think it is unfair to compare these 2 QB's just due to the surrounding cast. Hurts has a much better receiving core, who is the best WR that Lamar Jackson has worked with, Hollywood Brown?
Would you rather have Hollywood brown or davonta smith, and that isn't even the best receiver that Hurts has to work with.
Would you rather have Hollywood brown or davonta smith, and that isn't even the best receiver that Hurts has to work with.
Foosball God
Foos
But isn't some of that due to Balt trying to maximize what Jackson is good at? They tailored the offense specifically for Jackson's strengths.
MTskibum
Footballguy
I do not think so, since they have drafted Lamar they have chosen a WR in round 1 in 2019, round 3 in 2020, round 1 in 2021, and round 1 in 2023.
They might have the most draft capital in WR's over the last few years, they just suck at drafting WR's.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Hurts handles adversity better IMO. Better passer by a good margin.
Would be great to see LJax stay on the field all year. Should top 3K passing for the first time ever, outside shot at 4K. Great runner.
Hurts all day for me.
Would be great to see LJax stay on the field all year. Should top 3K passing for the first time ever, outside shot at 4K. Great runner.
Hurts all day for me.
fightingillini
Footballguy
What matters at the QB position is.....did you lead your team to wins? Both do that well. It's close talent wise. Hurts is a better passer, but Jackson is a more electrifying runner.
So for me it comes down to leadership, so I give Hurts the edge, but it's close.
So for me it comes down to leadership, so I give Hurts the edge, but it's close.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
MTskibum
Footballguy
Why i do not think that is the case is because Hollywood brown left town in his prime and is obviously much worse than an aging Deandre hopkins.
I'd give a slight edge to Jackson. I need to see another year from Hurts, as his 2022 wasn't as good as 2019 Jackson, and I'm not sure that version of Jackson is gone, or if his supporting cast has just eroded. I don't feel confident saying Hurts could do as much as Jackson has with the Ravens supporting cast, I think Jackson could do what Hurts has in Philly, though to Hurts credit, his play in last year's playoffs was a feather in his cap.
Forced to pick right now, I'd say Jackson, but I could easily switch that to Hurts a year from now if he keeps improving. I just don't want to assume it will happen just because.
Forced to pick right now, I'd say Jackson, but I could easily switch that to Hurts a year from now if he keeps improving. I just don't want to assume it will happen just because.
It's been said in here but I'll echo it that I went Hurts due to mainly all the intangible things. I just think he's a better leader and sets the standard for the entire team with his relentless work ethic. I also feel like since he left Alabama he's improved a little every single season whereas Lamar has seen some regression so between the two I'd be putting my money in Hurts bank account.
BassNBrew
Footballguy
My question assumed they had the same oline and supporting cast.
Skeletore Eh
Footballguy
Jackson. I don’t think hurts is the same player on the ravens/without the supporting cast
Chaka
Footballguy
May we also assume the same number of games played going forward?
Chaka
Footballguy
Same supporting cast and presumption of health: Lamar all day, every day. Peak Lamar has been better than peak Hurts. Simple as that.
Pigskin Fanatic
Footballguy
as an Eagles fan and somewhat of a Lamar hater in fantasy terms, I voted Lamar based on the assumptions mentioned, that all else equal who would be a better performer. I believe the answer will be Hurts in another season or two, but hard to say that right now. I do agree with the intangibles though, Hurts seems to do more for his team off the field than Lamar, but Lamar's skills are being discounted here a bit much.
is it the recent contract comedy that have you all questioning his maturity?
is it the recent contract comedy that have you all questioning his maturity?
elguapo07
Footballguy
Hurts so good.
-OZ-
Footballguy
Has he in the last couple years? In his top years sure. Do you think he gets back to 2019 form?
might want to get that checked out.
or developing them. Which is partly on the QB.
LawFitz
Footballguy
Nice to see Hurts finally getting the respect he deserves on these boards. That said, Lamar is the better player. Amazing to see so many discount his passing ability. Their situations weren't even remotely comparable last year. Injury risk is the only reason I'd favor Hurts if I were picking between them. And that is zero disrespect to Hurts. The only QB I'd take over Lamar Jackson, if we are removing injury risk (and team situation) from the analysis, is Patty Mahomes.
Chaka
Footballguy
He's 26, I'm willing to gamble on that.
Obviously you may assume the same number of games played going forward if you'd like, but that wasn't part of the assumptions in his question, only the same supporting cast was. Basically, if you ran Philly or Baltimore, which QB would you choose for the next 3 years? I can see an argument for both, but I can't really get on board with "all day, every day" for either. Sure, peak Lamar was better than peak Hurts, but peak Lamar occurred 4 seasons ago while peak Hurts was just last season (and may not be his career peak).
I lean slightly Hurts simply because of the recent play/trajectory, health, and yes, post season performance. This year will obviously be very telling for both and I fully acknowledge that Hurts could backslide and/or Lamar could regain his 2019 form.
BassNBrew
Footballguy
If you think their health is related to supporting cast and not their playing style or genetics.
RenegadeRoy
Footballguy
If you asked this forum this same question last year at this time it would've been overwhelmingly Jackson (not saying that was correct/incorrect, more of an observation of how much a year can change things). I like Hurts, but I think it's closer than most people are making it.
Chaka
Footballguy
In their first two seasons starting Lamar missed two games and Hurts missed four games.
They run with almost identical frequency (11 att to 10 last season), although that may change for Lamar under Monken, or maybe not.
So I have no problem projecting a similar number of games played.
They run with almost identical frequency (11 att to 10 last season), although that may change for Lamar under Monken, or maybe not.
So I have no problem projecting a similar number of games played.
Sure, that's not surprising considering the relatively small sample sizes. The two could have a large discrepancy in performance again this season that would swing things (in either direction), but I agree it's close right now.
-OZ-
Footballguy
That’s fair, I just haven’t seen the consistency I’d want. Hurts is just getting started so he might not keep it up, but it sure seems like Lamar has lost something. He can still turn it on at times.
Chaka
Footballguy
I have no idea how to handicap either guy but I think a lot of people are unfairly critical of Lamar.
Particularly understating the year Lamar had in 2020 following his MVP season. He put up 2,700+ passing, 26 pass TDs (6.9%), 1,000+ rushing with 7 TDs. That kind of season is easily on par with what Jalen did last season. The "he hasn't performed in four seasons" refrain rings hollow to me. Lamar's decline in 2021 & 2022 seems to correlate quite well with losing Orlando Brown entirely in 2021 and having Stanley for only 6 games in 2020 and 1 in 2021.
Hurts was unquestionably the better QB last season (particularly comp% & y/a) but even then Hurts only performed marginally better than Lamar on a much better team.
Lamar: 202 pass y/g, 1.5 TD/g, 0.6 INT/g with 69 rush y/g & 0.3 TD/g
Hurts: 247 pass y/g, 1.5 TD/g, 0.4 INT/g with 51 rush y/g & 0.9 TD/g
Hurts's fantasy stats were heavily bolstered by Siriani repeatedly playing rugby with his start QB. That's what people truly remember, even if they don't realize it, what a monster fantasy season he had.
And Lamar's only 26 so I have difficulty saying that he's simply done.
This season I expect Hurts to perform above Lamar. He simply has a much better supporting cast on both sides of the ball, TE is the only supporting position where you can say the Ravens have the better guy.
But the theoretical is "with the same supporting cast" in which case I'll gladly roll the dice on Lamar.
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-OZ-
Footballguy
I definitely don’t think he’s done. I’ve said it before here and I mean it, he’s one of my favorite players to watch.
clearly this is all theoretical, the eagles put hurts in position to perform or get replaced. He performed. From everything I’ve heard over the years including his time in Alabama, you couldn’t ask for a better teammate. That’s big to me when other things are mostly equivalent.
Lamar, at least the past few years, has been a highlight reel at times. Hopefully we see more of that.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Absent knowing how good these are drives me to Jackson. Knowing of course that if the surrounding cast is so bad that we need the one man show that it won't last very long anyway.
Why do you (and others in you camp) keep doing this? I'm fairly certain NO ONE is calling Lamar washed or saying that he's simply done. Any chance you can drop the straw man? It's pretty much impossible to have an honest discussion when this is your mindset.
Lamar has regressed the last couple of seasons, that is undeniable. Just like he has performed poorly in the postseason so far and he has missed a lot of time due to injuries the last two years. Should be no controversy there. That doesn't mean that he sucks, or he's never going to stay healthy, or he's never going to play better in the postseason and, of course, no one is saying that.
So, to add to pro-Lamar side of this discussion. In Rashod Bateman's 4 full games last season (small sample size to be fair) Lamar Jackson's per game averages were:
16-26 (62%) 217 yards (8.3 YPA) 2.5 pass TDs, .5 INTs. To go with 9-76-.5 rushing.
Extrapolate that over the course of the season, and that's:
3689 passing yards, 43 pass TDs, 9 INTs with 1292-9 rushing.
That's 301.56 fantasy points just from passing, another 183.2 rushing, for a total of 484.76 points, which would have been QB1 overall by almost 4 points per game, and about the same margin over his gigantic 2019 MVP season. Were those rate stats sustainable? Probably not, but it gives an idea of what his ceiling still is. Those 4 games included 2 against NE, and NYJ who were top defenses last season, and the Ravens were 3-1 in those games.
Truthfully, adjusted for situation, I'm not even sure Hurts was better than Lamar last season. How good would Hurts have been if his top-2 WRs most of last year had been Quez Watkins and Zach Pascal, because that's what Lamar had with Duvernay and Robinson. Lamar is a lot less likely to be stuck with Devin Duvernay as his #1 WR now though, with Bateman back, and the OBJ and Zay Flowers additions.
I won't argue intangibles or leadership with someone, if that's why you prefer Hurts, that's fine. If you feel Lamar is too injury prone, I think that is a flawed argument, but one I won't try to change someone's mind on. But strictly when on the field, the idea that Hurts has more talent/upside, or even clearly played better in 2022, I would disagree. I think Hurts gets a bit too much credit for having the easiest QB job in the NFL east of SF. Hurts is a very good QB, but he's also part of an offense with like 6 other pro bowl caliber guys.
16-26 (62%) 217 yards (8.3 YPA) 2.5 pass TDs, .5 INTs. To go with 9-76-.5 rushing.
Extrapolate that over the course of the season, and that's:
3689 passing yards, 43 pass TDs, 9 INTs with 1292-9 rushing.
That's 301.56 fantasy points just from passing, another 183.2 rushing, for a total of 484.76 points, which would have been QB1 overall by almost 4 points per game, and about the same margin over his gigantic 2019 MVP season. Were those rate stats sustainable? Probably not, but it gives an idea of what his ceiling still is. Those 4 games included 2 against NE, and NYJ who were top defenses last season, and the Ravens were 3-1 in those games.
Truthfully, adjusted for situation, I'm not even sure Hurts was better than Lamar last season. How good would Hurts have been if his top-2 WRs most of last year had been Quez Watkins and Zach Pascal, because that's what Lamar had with Duvernay and Robinson. Lamar is a lot less likely to be stuck with Devin Duvernay as his #1 WR now though, with Bateman back, and the OBJ and Zay Flowers additions.
I won't argue intangibles or leadership with someone, if that's why you prefer Hurts, that's fine. If you feel Lamar is too injury prone, I think that is a flawed argument, but one I won't try to change someone's mind on. But strictly when on the field, the idea that Hurts has more talent/upside, or even clearly played better in 2022, I would disagree. I think Hurts gets a bit too much credit for having the easiest QB job in the NFL east of SF. Hurts is a very good QB, but he's also part of an offense with like 6 other pro bowl caliber guys.
Chaka
Footballguy
I removed the triggering language from my post.
titusbramble
Footballguy
For a three year period, LJax
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
I don't think Hurts is done getting better. I think Jackson is what he's going to be going forward.
Wise Old Owl
Footballguy
I agree that I expect Hurts to continue to improve but the take that Jackson has leveled out is surprising. He has by a wide margin the best WR room of his career and an OC that will actually let him throw the ball. He honestly may have never been in a better situation.
Snotbubbles
Footballguy
So are you arguing that Lamar Jackson is improving or the people around him are?
From what I'm seeing, I don't see any marked improvements from Lamar Jackson as a passer. His numbers have been pretty consistent over the years.
His bad pass percent is hovering between 17-19%. Last season he was at 18.1% making him the 10th worst QB in the league (compared to Hurts who was 12th best). His on target % is hovering around 75%. Last season he was at 75.4% making him 19th in the league (compared to Hurts who was 7th best at 77.8%). His drop percentage last season was 8.4% which was historically bad for him and led the league, in his previous seasons was around 5% which puts him at middle of the pack (Hurts was at 5.4 and 5%). His times pressured per dropback was 19.4% last year or 19th in the league, Hurts was at 18.3% (27th in the league) so we're not talking about some massive advantage for Hurts there either. Jackson had 2.6 seconds of pocket time, 4th best in the league (compared to Hurts 2.3 seconds (21st in the league). Here another neat tidbit, Lamar Jackson has always been over 2.3 seconds of pocket time.
If you're arguing that his receivers will be able to haul in some of the slop he's been throwing, ok. That doesn't mean Lamar Jackson is getting better even if his counting statistics improve.
ProstheticRGK
Footballguy
I’m an Eagles homer, so my choice is Hurts. I wouldn’t trade Hurts for anyone, at this point.
As an objective (somewhat) football fan, I give the edge to Lamar on pure talent, at this point.
I like Huts’ leadership and commitment more than Lamar’s. But I think, as of right now, with the same weapons and the same scheme- Lamar gets the edge in terms of talent.
I’d still want Hurts on the Eagles just because of his intangibles, though.
As an objective (somewhat) football fan, I give the edge to Lamar on pure talent, at this point.
I like Huts’ leadership and commitment more than Lamar’s. But I think, as of right now, with the same weapons and the same scheme- Lamar gets the edge in terms of talent.
I’d still want Hurts on the Eagles just because of his intangibles, though.
Chaka
Footballguy
Andrews of course is top notch and elevates everyone else around him. I would feel better if they had added help on the offensive line but if Stanley can stay on the field they should be pretty good up front.
But don't we all think the Ravens way overpaid for OBJ? Which, IMO, was more about demonstrating to Lamar they wanted to keep him? I like Bateman and think he could finally have a good year but has he really demonstrated enough for anyone to be confident in him? I like Flowers too, by all accounts his drive is amazing so I believe he will be a legit producer but he's a rookie and a tiny target.
It may be the best WR room of Lamar's career but there aren't many teams where any of these guys would be a clear #2 let alone an NFL Alpha WR.
Monken's offense will be one of the more interesting stories to follow this season.
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
A couple of things:
1. In the 2021 Eagles' thread, I posted that (paraphrasing) I thought Hurts had a chance to be a really good QB. That he looked like the game wasn't too big for him. His numbers weren't great, but he looked cool, calm, collected, and talented to me (I think they had just lost to GB?). Guess how that post was received by many Philly fans on this board? I'm too lazy to find my post, but it (& the responses) should still be here somewhere. I wonder if any of the Hurts backers in this thread were one of the dissenters to my post a mere 1.5 years ago. This isn't a look-at-me thing (because my evaluation skills on athletes aren't very good), but just to say that our views change quickly based on current events.
2. I love watching Hurts play. His passing, IMO, needs to improve. But he's a smart guy and I have no doubt it will.
3. I don't quite get the "ding" on Jackson's leadership. His teammates love him. Maybe I've missed it, but I have seen zero complaints about him or his work ethic from players or coaches. I didn't like the look of him not being at the playoff game in Cincy. But the Ravens are notoriously tight-lipped and so - apparently - is Jackson. We'll probably never find out how contentious things got.
4. Did anyone else watch Jackson at Louisville? He was running Petrino's offense, which is way more "NFL Normal" than what Roman did. He destroyed teams throwing the ball. I know that's college, but it's not like Louisville is Bama or Oklahoma.
5. It's razor-thin, but I'd take Lamar Jackson over Jalen Hurts for the next three years - all else being equal. I think both are quality players and the NFL is better off having the two.
1. In the 2021 Eagles' thread, I posted that (paraphrasing) I thought Hurts had a chance to be a really good QB. That he looked like the game wasn't too big for him. His numbers weren't great, but he looked cool, calm, collected, and talented to me (I think they had just lost to GB?). Guess how that post was received by many Philly fans on this board? I'm too lazy to find my post, but it (& the responses) should still be here somewhere. I wonder if any of the Hurts backers in this thread were one of the dissenters to my post a mere 1.5 years ago. This isn't a look-at-me thing (because my evaluation skills on athletes aren't very good), but just to say that our views change quickly based on current events.
2. I love watching Hurts play. His passing, IMO, needs to improve. But he's a smart guy and I have no doubt it will.
3. I don't quite get the "ding" on Jackson's leadership. His teammates love him. Maybe I've missed it, but I have seen zero complaints about him or his work ethic from players or coaches. I didn't like the look of him not being at the playoff game in Cincy. But the Ravens are notoriously tight-lipped and so - apparently - is Jackson. We'll probably never find out how contentious things got.
4. Did anyone else watch Jackson at Louisville? He was running Petrino's offense, which is way more "NFL Normal" than what Roman did. He destroyed teams throwing the ball. I know that's college, but it's not like Louisville is Bama or Oklahoma.
5. It's razor-thin, but I'd take Lamar Jackson over Jalen Hurts for the next three years - all else being equal. I think both are quality players and the NFL is better off having the two.
